[OB] An argument for becoming a Stoneward

[Steeldancer]

Speaking of interesting stuff about Stonewards, I was rereading and I noticed that Ivory said "All 10 orders are back." This implies we have an actual KR Stoneward that we haven't seen yet, but who is wandering around somewhere....

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Ymawgat said:

Ok fair point. Theory cancelled I guess.

(Adolin will always be a Stoneward in my heart.)

Can I ask why you want Adolin to be a Stonewards this much? I am asking because I have come across readers wanting Adolin to be a Dustbringer just a badly and this didn't turn out quite like everyone expected. So why Adolin the Stoneward? Why is this more interesting than Adolin revives his Blade and becomes an Edgedancer? What does him being a Stoneward adds to the story?

[Yata]

Honestly I could see Adolin as Edgedancer/Stonewarder/Duskbringer (the last two as hypotesis as we don't know yet the Orders' mantra) and I believe many people set the Order's requirement too high. Not every Windrunner need to be so zehalous as Kaladin or not every Skybreaker has to be a Justice Machine like Nale. You could be choosen as Radiant if you show the right qualities but the Spren can't know how far this qualities will make you progress. Many Radiants of the past never achieved the superior Oaths but there were still choosen by the Spren.

My previous replies were not to deny an Adolin Stonewarden. But just to correct some wrong assumption the OP was making.

About what I really want from Adolin, I want him to not revive Maya, not fully. And be an anomalous Shardbearer. Like, summon the Blade faster and maybe twist her a bit but not proper Surgebinding from him. This for a mere narrative's prospective and both because reviving a Blade is hard (also if the Edgedancer's ones are the easier to resurrect in my opinion). He would be probably choosen to be an Edgedancer if a Cultivationspren notice him but reviving Maya is magnitudes beyond that. In my opinion you will Need a great Radiant Knight to do It not only someone who Will be an "ok Radiant Knight". To say a Kaladin Who is the living embodyment of Protection could be able to revive an Honorspren (Syl doesn't count as He killed her and therefore was able to resurrect her Easy) but a Lopen or Teft would be unable also if they are elegible as Windrunner

Edited December 4, 2017 by Yata

[Fifth of Daybreak]

21 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Please don't use Teft's explanation for the first Ideal. That doesn't work for Radiants like Malata for example and Lopen swore 'journey before pancakes'. Calderis has a great topic on this somewhere.

I'm not convinced by the arguments made surrounding that particular thesis, and I'm especially hesitant to throw cannon on screen information out the window for the sake of a single WoB that a Machiavellian could be accepted into the order. While I understand your personal reluctance to use Teft's speech as the basis for the first ideal, in my opinion it is inappropriate to ask someone not to quote source material directly relevant to the concepts being discussed because you subscribe to a popular theory on the forums. 

After having a long discussion on that subject, it's my opinion that too much stress was put onto the whole Machiavellian question to begin with. It doesn't tell us much, and it doesn't actually contradict anything Teft says. From how I view it, the first ideal is the ends and the other ideals are the means the orders are willing to justify in order to achieve those ends. There's no reason that Teft's interpretation and the WoB about Machiavellian's have to be mutually exclusive.

 

Can you elaborate on Malata?

 

Also, Lopen did not swear the first ideal in that scene, he swore the second. His statement that the first ideal "was the easy one" along with the sudden reaction when he swears the second is more then enough contextual clues to show he had sworn the first already prior to this point, and his pancakes statement was just a normal flippant Lopenism and not his spren allowing him to circumvent the only ideal that we know to be consistent across all the orders.

Quote

‘Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before pancakes.’ That’s the easy one. The hard one is, ‘I will protect those who cannot protect themselves,’

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

His statement that the first ideal "was the easy one" along with the sudden reaction when he swears the second is more then enough contextual clues to show he had sworn the first already prior to this point, and his pancakes statement was just a normal flippant Lopenism and not his spren allowing him to circumvent the only ideal that we know to be consistent across all the orders.

Well, we only know it's consistent because they all said it the same way, because they were told to say it that way. It's been made pretty clear generally that the words matter less than the intention, so if Lopen swore it using pancakes as a synonym in place of destination, it would still be the same oath. Not withstanding of course that you are correct in saying it's implied he has previously said the oath anyway.

Edit: I think the main learning we can take from Lopen's oath is that he could never, ever have a romantic relationship with Lift. Journey before pancakes? Blasphemy!

Edited December 4, 2017 by aemetha

[Aleksiel]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I'm not convinced by the arguments made surrounding that particular thesis, and I'm especially hesitant to throw cannon on screen information out the window for the sake of a single WoB that a Machiavellian could be accepted into the order. While I understand your personal reluctance to use Teft's speech as the basis for the first ideal, in my opinion it is inappropriate to ask someone not to quote source material directly relevant to the concepts being discussed because you subscribe to a popular theory on the forums. 

After having a long discussion on that subject, it's my opinion that too much stress was put onto the whole Machiavellian question to begin with. It doesn't tell us much, and it doesn't actually contradict anything Teft says. From how I view it, the first ideal is the ends and the other ideals are the means the orders are willing to justify in order to achieve those ends. There's no reason that Teft's interpretation and the WoB about Machiavellian's have to be mutually exclusive.

 

Can you elaborate on Malata?

 

Also, Lopen did not swear the first ideal in that scene, he swore the second. His statement that the first ideal "was the easy one" along with the sudden reaction when he swears the second is more then enough contextual clues to show he had sworn the first already prior to this point, and his pancakes statement was just a normal flippant Lopenism and not his spren allowing him to circumvent the only ideal that we know to be consistent across all the orders.

 

Point taken, I did not mean it shouldn't be quoted, I intended it as meaning this isn't the one and only interpretation that invalided all others possible.

The only way that Teft's interpretation and WoB about Machiavellian's and some Orders being fine with Adolin murdering Sadeas both hold true, is if there isn't only one possible angle to the first Ideal.

Malata is a Diagramist - she supports Vargo in his quest to sacrifice some for the ultimate survival of humanity. Teft's interpretation doesn't allow for this as he claims Radiants wouldn't sacrifice even one for the sake of the many.

Lopen said the first Ideal before and since nothing special seems to happen when WR swear it either of us can be right. He may have been ready for it before, just not for the second or he may not have been ready for either of them to be accepted before that moment. 

50 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I think the main learning we can take from Lopen's oath is that he could never, ever have a romantic relationship with Lift. Journey before pancakes? Blasphemy!

Agreed, this is foreshadowing for future Lopen/Lift conflict 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

The only way that Teft's interpretation and WoB about Machiavellian's and some Orders being fine with Adolin murdering Sadeas both hold true, is if there isn't only one possible angle to the first Ideal.

I don't see anything that would specifically condemn Adolin from Teft's speech, and j want to stress again that the WoB, would a Machiavellian be allowed into the KR, really wouldn't tell us much. They'd be a perfect temperament for the Skybreakers where they aren't concerned with morality but for following the law. Just being a Machiavellian doesn't tell us anything besides you're willing to justify some sort of means by the end. That's basically the entire point of Jasnah's philosophy lesson with Shallan. 

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Malata is a Diagramist - she supports Vargo in his quest to sacrifice some for the ultimate survival of humanity. Teft's interpretation doesn't allow for this as he claims Radiants wouldn't sacrifice even one for the sake of the many.

I think we have enough information on screen about Malata to show that her perception isn't that what she's doing breaks the first oath. She doesn't see the value in Urithuru and an Organized KR, and she doesn't trust the Alethi. 

Quote

“Things don’t have to be the way they were. Why should they? It didn’t work out so well last time for the Radiants, did it?”

...

“Curious,” the woman said, “that we have only the word of a few stuffy Alethi about this entire ‘Desolation’ business, eh sister?”

27 Playing Pretend

We know that the Dustbringers were the most likely to support the Diagram and that Adrotagia has been grooming her all book.we rarely see them separate. I'm looking at that through a similar lens as the mentats in Dune. If you want to control them, control their information received. If you want to control Radiants, control their perceptions of your enemies.

Quote

Adrotagia had entered with Malata, the Dustbringer; they were growing in companionship as Adrotagia attempted to secure an emotional bond with this lesser Diagram member who had suddenly been thrust into its upper echelons, an event predicted by the Diagram—which explained that the Dustbringers would be the Radiants most likely to accept their cause,

But most importantly, I've interpreted this scene as proof that Malata and her Spren don't view the KR as devoted to Honor as innocent. They are the organization responsible for killing hundreds of spren. That perception alone could be enough to insulate her from believing she broke the first ideal. 

Quote

“I told you, the rest of them are idiots. They assume all the spren are going to be on their side. Never mind what the Radiants did to Spark’s friends, never mind that organized devotion to Honor is what killed hundreds of ashspren in the first place.”

“And Odium?” Taravangian asked, curious. The Diagram warned that the personalities of the Radiants would introduce great uncertainty to their plans.

“Spark is game for whatever it takes to get vengeance..."

The interpretations on the first ideal I do agree will vary, but only from person to person in the same way Brandon has indicated they would disagree on interpreting other oaths, and I think it mostly comes down to how they perceive the situation before them, and the Dustbringers, or at least the spren, seem to view humans as enemies, not innocents. 

Quote

“Except one nearly broke my bond, while the other didn’t. The bond isn’t about what’s right and wrong, is it, Syl. It’s about what you see as right and wrong.”

“What we see,” she corrected. “And about oaths. You swore to protect Elhokar. Tell me that during your time planning to betray Elhokar, you didn’t—deep down—think you were doing something wrong.”

“Fine. But it’s still about perception.”

 

[Aleksiel]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Just being a Machiavellian doesn't tell us anything besides you're willing to justify some sort of means by the end. That's basically the entire point of Jasnah's philosophy lesson with Shallan. 

Which goes against Teft's interpretation that doesn't allow for the end to be more important than the means to achieve it. Yet this is acceptable interpretation for some of the Radiants.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I think we have enough information on screen about Malata to show that her perception isn't that what she's doing breaks the first oath.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

But most importantly, I've interpreted this scene as proof that Malata and her Spren don't view the KR as devoted to Honor as innocent. They are the organization responsible for killing hundreds of spren. That perception alone could be enough to insulate her from believing she broke the first ideal. 

Exactly, the oath is about interpretation - both from the surgebinder and their spren. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

The interpretations on the first ideal I do agree will vary, but only from person to person in the same way Brandon has indicated they would disagree on interpreting other oaths, and I think it mostly comes down to how they perceive the situation before them, and the Dustbringers, or at least the spren, seem to view humans as enemies, not innocents. 

I fail to see why we are arguing since we seem to agree there are variations of how oaths are interpreted. Though I'd hazard most of one Order will have similar take on it, so while it will vary among individuals, we would also be able to have certain expectations based on Order's archetypes.

So in the light of that I don't understand why you say you oppose the theory on the first Ideal being more open to interpretation than Teft's view allows for. This is a point you yourself are making in this post in my opinion.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

42 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Which goes against Teft's interpretation that doesn't allow for the end to be more important than the means to achieve it. Yet this is acceptable interpretation for some of the Radiants.

This is the part where we differ, this doesn't break what Teft said at all unless you're framing it in a specific way, which has not been done when presenting Brandon with that question. Saying that someone who will justify the means by the ends tells us absolutely nothing about that person, as we don't know their motives, goals, or anything else. As long as a Machiavellian has the requisite characteristics to attract a spren and they don't break their oaths, it's honestly extraneous information.

Jasnah's means, killing thugs in pre-meditated murder, is justified by her end of using her "strength for others." Her power does not give her right to enforce her worldview on Shallan, but it does make her capable of service to both Shallan's education and the protection of the weak.

She also chose the method that would directly entice them to attack without seeking them out first for retribution. There were several methods to achieve the goal, she chose that one. Her means we're justified by the end of Strength before Weakness as described by Teft.

42 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

So in the light of that I don't understand why you say you oppose the theory on the first Ideal being more open to interpretation than Teft's view allows for. This is a point you yourself are making in this post in my opinion.

Because my argument is less about the wiggle room allowed by the Oath, which is supposed to be based off of the Way of Kings which does not have an ambiguous morality based on the passages we've been shown, and more on the perception of the Radiant and the spren viewing the situation. We don't know how involved in the Diagram Malata is before bonding, and we don't know how much she knows now, such as harvesting death rattles. The one time they are mentioned is immediately before Malata is brought in to report on spying, saying they are going to harvest them at the Horneater Peaks, so it's fair to say they haven't had their killing operation set up for a while. 

King T is already weary about asking her to spy because of the effect it might have on the bond. The things she's said makes it seem to me that she, and other Dustbringers, are considering themselves allied with Odium, as Nalan seems to expect the Highspren will. As long as they perceive their side as the ones who are innocent, there's no breaking of the first oath as described by Teft. She's using her life to dangerously infiltrate the enemy stronghold in the hopes of great gain. She's using her strength to spy on enemy combatants and to open the Oathgate to allow allies to attack those who killed the friends of her spren, not Innocents. She's convinced that getting her power is not fulfilled by the destination of joining Urithuru, but the journey helping her spren get vengeance against those who killed hundreds of his friends.

It's less about interpretation, more about perception of the situation and implementation of the plan of attack. I just haven't seen anyone do anything that I would consider having directly contradicted the first ideal based on their perceptions of reality and Teft's description to date.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[The One Who Connects]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:54 PM, Ymawgat said:

Finally there’s the argument that since Adolin is articulate and refined he actually fits the order very well, but Lift proves that “articulation” and “refinement” are by no means the defining factors of what it means to be an Edgedancer, and I find it far more likely that these characteristics are side effects of the Edgedancer attention to detail, rather than the prerequisites.

(I'm gonna tag @Aleksiel, since he mentioned some of this too) There's the continuing discourse on the Edgedancer Resonance, and the prevailing theory involves it being related to communication. Lift had this.. connection with street urchin speak in Edgedancer. Were she in the presence of royals(and not mentally a child), I wouldn't be surprised if she picked up on the intricacies of Nobility Speak without much effort.

Considering Scholars and Kings wrote the books of old, that inexplicable skill and refined air the Edgedancers used when around them is what was remembered, but not necessarily the whole truth. If you asked the common people of old to describe Edgedancers, I'd bet they'd use the word "understanding," rather than "articulate." The history books, even the history itself, they're all a matter of perspective.

[The Sovereign]

On 12/2/2017 at 9:11 PM, Edvarin said:

I like this thread. It forces me to think. So heres my thoughts. You're right about how well he fits the Stonewards. Its eerie actually. He does possess Edgedancer traits though.

1. When Kaladin challenged Amaram and got himself imprisoned, Adolin set aside his uncertainties about Kaladin and stood up for him because he had actually listened. He knew Kaladin was a troubled, but good guy and still tried to befriend him despite Kals foul moods and his suspicions.

2. His thoughts on Amaram being too perfect fits. He saw through the facade.

3. The fact that he spoke to his sword before he knew it was a spren. The fact that he made the connection in the first place.

4. He listened to his father despite his initial doubts. When he realized that his father was not crazy, when he told his father he believed in him, Dalinar was finally able to do what he needed to do.

5. He figured out that Kaladin killed Shallans brother before she did.

6. His connections with his own, and his fathers Rhyshadium.

7. The darkeyed prostitute.

8. When he read Shallan and knew she liked Kaladin too.

9. When he killed Sadeas. You could say he listened to Sadeas and thats WHY he killed him.

 

 

Thats all I can think of right now, but I'd like to close with a crazy thought. Could someone belong to more than one Order? Could they be bound by multiple Oaths and draw from up to 4 Surges?

To add to this we see Adolin living the 2nd and 3rd ideals of the Edgedancers with Maya herself:

I will remember those who have been forgotten.
I will listen to those who have been ignored.

We initially see Adolin talking to his sword and explaining how it would feel wrong for him to give it a name as it probably already has one. Then in Kholinar we see him again talking to Maya saying that he knows that she is a dead Spren but he is thanking her for her help and apologizing. Later in Shademar we see him showing kindness and appreciation for Maya when we see other Spren showing callousness toward the "Deadeye" (for example when he doesn't want her locked under the ship's deck). Finally we see him listening to her in Thaylen City (when she tells him her name) even though we saw in Shademar that Deadeyes are typically an avoided topic.

[SirPaulchen]

On 3.12.2017 at 3:11 AM, Edvarin said:

I like this thread. It forces me to think. So heres my thoughts. You're right about how well he fits the Stonewards. Its eerie actually. He does possess Edgedancer traits though.

1. When Kaladin challenged Amaram and got himself imprisoned, Adolin set aside his uncertainties about Kaladin and stood up for him because he had actually listened. He knew Kaladin was a troubled, but good guy and still tried to befriend him despite Kals foul moods and his suspicions.

2. His thoughts on Amaram being too perfect fits. He saw through the facade.

3. The fact that he spoke to his sword before he knew it was a spren. The fact that he made the connection in the first place.

4. He listened to his father despite his initial doubts. When he realized that his father was not crazy, when he told his father he believed in him, Dalinar was finally able to do what he needed to do.

5. He figured out that Kaladin killed Shallans brother before she did.

6. His connections with his own, and his fathers Rhyshadium.

7. The darkeyed prostitute.

8. When he read Shallan and knew she liked Kaladin too.

9. When he killed Sadeas. You could say he listened to Sadeas and thats WHY he killed him.

 

 

Thats all I can think of right now, but I'd like to close with a crazy thought. Could someone belong to more than one Order? Could they be bound by multiple Oaths and draw from up to 4 Surges?

 

I love this whole conversation! I'd like to add a few edgedancer traits:

1. There is the scene from WoR where Adolin gives his helmet to the water boy and shallan mentions how nice he is to everyone. I think that fits the edgedancer stereotype of being the ones caring for the simple people. 

2. Adolin seems to be the only one who used to really listen to Renarin who was never heard by others. 

3. Adolin tells shallan off for not taking care of her bodyguards which shows that he cares for them. 

4. It was said before but he remembers the forgotten horse of Dalinar. 

Of those, 1, 2 & 4 are examples I could very well imagine Lift doing as well. 

On a side note I think that Adolin could be an elegant addition to the battlefield sliding around well dressed, striking with perfection, etc. I could also see him teaching sword stances to Lift. And I  can already hear Wyndle's mutterings on the elegance of Adolin and how he ended up with Lift instead