[OB] An argument for becoming a Stoneward

[Ymawgat]

This is the argument that Adolin makes a much better Stoneward than Edgedancer, and that it's possible he might actually become one. There's a lot of stuff to get through here, so I'll try to be concise.

And yes, this theory addresses the fact that Adolin is already sort of bonded to Maya. I've already posted this idea on tumblr and reddit (with mixed reactions) and am now posting it here with some new arguments and evidence I've thought of since.

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Why not Edgedancer?

Spoiler

 

As far as we know, the prerequisites to become a knight radiant are:

1. You must have some kind of mental trauma (and this might have to involve seeing others getting hurt instead of you and wanting to bear their pain instead).
2. You must say ideals that require you to face this trauma in some way, rather than ignoring it or letting it control your life.

The second requisite is what I'm going to focus on, as it forms my argument for why the Edgedancer ideals aren't right for Adolin. The evidence for it includes:

The first ideal:

Spoiler

The first ideal

Quote

Life before death, Strength before weakness, Journey before destination.

The KR first ideal basically saying "I will care about might life, put effort into what I do, and will try to enjoy things/put meaning in the way I do things",

The last phrase "Journey before destination" is explained by Teft to mean:

Quote

There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.

Which also very much sounds like something someone would tell someone to do if they wanted to make sure they stayed mentally healthy: perhaps it is better to kill one innocent to protect another ten, but killing at all will damage the Radiant's mental health, which will make them more susceptible to Odium and more likely to abuse their power.

Windrunner ideals:

Spoiler

The second ideal:

Quote

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. 

Throughout the way of kings Kaladin grapples with whether he should even try to protect bridge four, or just lie down and accept that he can't protect anyone, and at the moment he says the second ideal he commits to trying to protect people, which is ultimately more mentally healthy for him.

Lopen however, is only able to say the second ideal when talking to a soldier who has recently lost an arm, which, if not something that forces him to face his trauma, is at the very least deeply personal to him.

The third ideal:

Quote

I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.

Kaladin swears this one whilst protecting Elhokar - the man who gave him Roshone. There are a few ways to construe this as something that forces Kal to be mentally healthy, but the clearest reason is that the ideal stops the windrunner from making an acting out of hate when it's the wrong thing to do - something that is arguably inherently mentally unhealthy or is at least something Kaladin will later beat himself up about.

Teft swears a modified version of this ideal, specifically swearing to protect even himself - which is of course a further commitment to self care.

The fourth ideal is something we don't know the exact words for, but we still have some evidence for from one of the oathbringer epigraphs:

Quote

"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?" -- 10-12 -- sapphire

This, and Kaladin and Syl's recognition that the ideal is particularly hard for him to say implies to me that the ideal goes along the lines of admitting that you won't be able to protect everyone, and forgiving yourself for this.

The fact that Kaladin watches several of his friends kill each other before he almost swears this ideal supports this, IMO.

Lightweaver ideals:

Spoiler

This one is pretty much self explanatory - the instead of each oath being the same thing for every member they instead have to admit (and in some cases relive) suppressed memories, which is the first step to dealing with what happened (and in Shallan's case - guilt). These ideals pull the radiant out of denial and forces them to face their trauma.

Bondsmith ideals:

Spoiler

The second ideal:

Quote

"I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together."

It could be argued that this one is just an extension of the first ideal in that it requires the radiant to commit to trying to do what they've always tried to do (sort of like Kal's second ideal), but I'd argue that watching people fight each other for no reason can be quite traumatic, especially for someone who's spent their whole life dividing.

I will concede that how much this ideal support mental health is more subjective, however.

The third ideal

Quote

"I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man"

This one is much more obvious. Odium tells Dalinar to that he made Dalinar commit the atrocities he committed, and in doing so asks Dalinar to relinquish responsibility for all the suffering they caused together. Dalinar refuses, saying "you cannot have my pain".

If Dalinar had instead agreed, it would have entered a kind of denial (as well as, you know, become a champion for a force of pure hate), but as he didn't he is able to consciously deal with his problems.

Skybreaker ideals:

Spoiler

This is the weakest part of the idea that the ideals force the surgebinder to face their trauma, the ideals go as follows:

2:

Quote

 

"I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal."/"I will put the law before all else"

3:

Quote

"I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath."/Some other dedication to a greater truth.

4:

Quote

"I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees."/Some other personal crusade

5:

Quote

Requires the Skybreaker to swear an oath that they will become a personification of law and truth.

None of these really shout "I will swear to face my mental illness head on", and a couple of them seem to be outright relinquishing responsibility - the opposite of the third Bondsmith ideal.

However I would argue that these ideals are put into a much better perspective when you look at the type of people who become Skybreakers. Szeth for instance, seems to find trouble believing in a moral code that isn't defined by law somehow, and Nale says:

Quote

"The very reason we swear to something external is because we acknowledge that our judgement is flawed. My judgement is flawed."

....

"The law is made by men, so it's not perfect either. It is not perfection we seek, for perfection is impossible. It is instead consistency."

This to me implies that the skybreaker ideals are about finding ways in which to act that you trust is the morally good. Szeth lost his faith in stone-shamanism after Kaladin reveals the KRs have returned, and him saying the second ideal is him reasserting his faith in a legal system, with subsequent ideals being him choosing a particular system to put his faith into (yes, Dalinar is a legal system), and then fighting his demons in the form of his last, false, legal system. I have no idea what the 5th ideal is about, however.

Edgedancers:

(not putting this one in a spoiler because it's the one that's actually finally relevant to this theory)

Second and Third ideals:

Quote

"I will remember those who have been forgotten."

"I will listen to those who have been ignored."

From what we know about Lift makes sense for her to swear these ideals, and for them to hold a large amount of meaning to her, for two reasons:

1. Lift is a working class homeless child, who will have often been in the position of being forgotten and ignored. There's an argument that when she says her ideals she asserts to herself that she is worth remembering, and that she is worth listening to.
2. Lift has had a high exposure to seeing people forgotten and ignored. Kaladin has had a high exposure to seeing his friends/men killed, Szeth has had a high exposure to killing people under a false legal system, Dalinar has had a high exposure to seeing people fight over nothing (and to himself killing people, but that's another story). Arguably Lift commits to caring and not giving up in the way that Kaladin, Szeth, and Dalinar also do when they swear their second ideals.

And with all that crem dung in mind, I don't feel like he doesn't quite fits the Edgedancer order?

Unlike Lift Adolin comes from a place of extreme privilege, he has always had people to listen to him whether they be peers or subordinates and I personally can’t see this changing any time soon. He’s married to Shallan and the thunderclast fight proves most people aren’t really going to start seeing him as useless.

I can however, see counterarguments to this, namely being:

1. Adolin remembers/listens to Maya.
2. He listens to Darkeyes, such as the time he saves a prostitute from being beaten in the way of Kings.
3. He might end up being the only one remembering Elhokar.

However I we never really see him prioritising the first two points other more pressing matters, and more importantly they aren't really things he has trauma related to or that he needs to reassert his commitment to. Furthermore I can't realistically see him as being the only one who still cares about Elhokar either?

On top of this there’s a bit in shadesmar where Syl is trying to tell the others something and is ignored by the rest of the group, including Adolin. What the hell Adolin.

Finally there’s the argument that since Adolin is articulate and refined he actually fits the order very well, but Lift proves that “articulation” and “refinement” are by no means the defining factors of what it means to be an Edgedancer, and I find it far more likely that these characteristics are side effects of the Edgedancer attention to detail, rather than the prerequisites.

 

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Why Stoneward?

Spoiler

 

We don't know much about Stonewards or their oaths, but they are described in the epigraphs:

Words of Radiance chapter 13

Quote

"Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error."

Oathbringer chapters 58, 64, and 72 have actual quotes from Stonewards:

Quote

 

"As a Stoneward, I spent my entire life looking to sacrifice myself. I secretly worry that is the cowardly way. The easy way out."

"The disagreements between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners have grown to tragic levels. I plead with any who hear this to recognisez you are not so different as you think."

"The Edgedancers are too busy relocating the tower's servants and farmers to send a representative to record their thoughts in these gemstones.
I'll do it for them, then. They are the ones who will be most displaced by this decision. The Radiants will be taken in by nations, but what of all these people now without homes?"

 

I believe Adolin fits all of these quotes very well in my opinion.

He’s undoubtedly strong and dependable, as we see him supporting Kal and Shallan in shadesmar, and eventually helping ground Shallan at the end of the Oathbringer. He also takes Gavilar’s death much better than a lot of other people would have (I feel like there are other ways he fits theses characteristics, but they’re hard to articulate).

He’s also stubborn and has resolve. He’s one of the few people who actually refuses Dalinar, and does so multiple times. Teenage Adolin holds firm against a younger drunk Dalinar, Adolin calls out Dalinar in the way of kings for not being politically aggressive enough, and he flat out refuses to become king. It could also be that Adolin’s lack of regret for the murder of Sadeas is an example of Stoneward stubbornness.

Adolin is also somewhat prone to attempt self sacrifice. He definitely makes his peace with dying in the battle of the tower much faster than he makes peace with the fact Kaladin saved him, and he also faces down a thunderclast in stonestance, barely standing, before Renarin arrives to heal him.

Finally I will just say that the last epigraph quote is particularly interesting, as it means that that Edgedancers aren't the only order that cares about the voices of others being heard: Stonewards can exhibit this to, even if it may not be central to their ideals.

 

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How could this even happen? Seeing as Adolin is already bonded to Maya, a cultivationspren?

Spoiler

 

Yes, it’s true that Adolin is bonded to Maya, and it seems that she’s at least partially resurrected, as we see him summon her after seven heartbeats instead of ten, and there are a couple of descriptions of Adolin slipping and sliding on dust in the final battle, which could be accidental uses of Abbrasion.

However, I legitimately believe that it's possible for Maya to be at least partially transformed into the whatever spren that Stonewards bond to.

Firstly, we already have two precedents for spren changing on a similarly fundamental level:

1. Soulcasting almost certainly works by convincing the spren to transform into a different kind of spren, which then causes the object they represent to change as well.
2. Sja-anat corrupts Glys, and in doing so changes a sentient, bonding spren on a fundamental level.

Secondly I don't think Maya being transformed (or even Adolin becoming a Stoneward without her transforming at all) bends Occam's razor any more than Brandon Sanderson usually does.

For example before the following concepts were introduced would you think that they would happen or were at all likely?:

• Lift being able to metabolise food into stormlight.
• Dalinar bonding to the Stormfather.
• Szeth wielding Nightblood.
• Renarin bonding to a corrupted spren (even after we've been told that only "lower spren" can be corrupted).
• Venli saying the first ideal.

I'd even go as far as to argue that if Adolin was to become a Radiant his spren/powers would be more likely to be in some way unique or weird, because like, even Kaladin has a unique-ish spren and Shallan has an eidetic memory.

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Why would this even happen? Why would Brandon or any of the characters in the book want this to happen?

Spoiler

Why Brandon would want a Stoneward Adolin:

To put it bluntly, Brandon is running out of main characters, and still has 3 orders to fill (Willshapers, Dustbringers, and of course Stonewards). While Taln may fit the Stoneward place at the end of the series he probably won't be exploring their ideals any time soon.

In addition to this if there's one thing Bradon loves is romance parallels (see: two brothers fall in love with the same woman) and we have the heralds of Lightweavers and Stonewards in a relationship, and a Lightweaver is now married to Adolin. Like it or not if he became a Stoneward it would fit.

Also the last point would provide Ash with a motive to transform Maya: she sees herself and Taln in Shallan and Adolin.

Why Dalinar and Co. might want Adolin to become a Stoneward:

When meeting in Vedenar Taravangian mentions to Dalinar that the half-shard shields use a spren that would have made a KR bond. It's very possible (seeing as what Tension might do) that it's the Stonewards' spren that have been captured after they heard Stoneward oaths, and due to this the rest of the strata/rock/stone/magma/foundation spren in shadesmar may flat out refuse to answer further calls to bond (we have precedence for this happening in the Stormfather refusing to let Syl bond to Kal).

In this senario Maya might be the only method they have of creating a Stoneward.

(I agree that this point is a lot weaker however.)

Why Maya and Adolin would want him to become a Stoneward:

I argued above that Adolin fits Stoneward better than Edgedancer, and I think both Adolin and Maya would want an order he would fit better.

Also Maya has been betrayed by an Edgedancer before, so she might not want to be at another's mercy.

 

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That's it. Please tell me what you think.

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ymawgat

[EvilNuff]

First off, the oaths are not set in stone.  They can and do vary from knight to knight within a given order.  I base this statement on the oaths we have seen for Windrunners being different for each person.  Given that I think it is a fair assessment to say that the Edgedancer oaths are around remembering and listening to those forgotten/ignored/etc.  You already gave three great examples of how Adolin personifies these traits and there are more, the way he stood up for Kal after the lopsided fight in WoR is one that comes to mind.

As for Stonewards we don't know terribly much so far.  Adolin does not sacrific himself.  He isn't the type to reconcile between opposing parties, on the contrary he is more of an instigator.  

I actually think the information you gathered helps argue for him becoming an Edgedancer over a Stoneward.

[RShara]

Please put [OB] in your topic title and change it to be more generic, per the spoiler policy at the top.

[Ymawgat]

5 minutes ago, RShara said:

Please put [OB] in your topic title and change it to be more generic, per the spoiler policy at the top.

edited for safety, thanks

[Ymawgat]

18 minutes ago, EvilNuff said:

First off, the oaths are not set in stone.  They can and do vary from knight to knight within a given order.  I base this statement on the oaths we have seen for Windrunners being different for each person.

Yes but they all follow a common theme.

Quote

You already gave three great examples of how Adolin personifies these traits and there are more, the way he stood up for Kal after the lopsided fight in WoR is one that comes to mind.

And how are any of these examples personal enough to make ideals out of, and I can't see how the standing up for Kal is explicitly listening/remembering (Kal wasn't dead, nor was he being ignored specifically - in fact he was imprisoned precisely because people took notice of what he said), I can see, however, how it can be taken as an example of stubbornness.

Quote

Adolin does not sacrific himself.

He tries to, which is the point I was making.

20 minutes ago, EvilNuff said:

He isn't the type to reconcile between opposing parties, on the contrary he is more of an instigator.  

Examples being?

24 minutes ago, EvilNuff said:

I actually think the information you gathered helps argue for him becoming an Edgedancer over a Stoneward.

:/

What about the points in favour of Stoneward that you didn't address?

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, there is a WoB that might help. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5616

Questioner (paraphrased)

Can you write an unknown Ideal [in my book]?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are still rough so this might not be the exact wording but: "I will stand when others fall."

This strongly suggests Stoneward. If this is a Stoneward Ideal, we actually see Adolin exemplify this in some scenarios. The strongest would be Facing down the thunderclast. Which he does fully expecting to die. In Stonestance. That last bit could be coincidence, but it makes a certain amount of sense. He is universally described as solid. Edgedancers are at least a little flighty.

[Edvarin]

I like this thread. It forces me to think. So heres my thoughts. You're right about how well he fits the Stonewards. Its eerie actually. He does possess Edgedancer traits though.

1. When Kaladin challenged Amaram and got himself imprisoned, Adolin set aside his uncertainties about Kaladin and stood up for him because he had actually listened. He knew Kaladin was a troubled, but good guy and still tried to befriend him despite Kals foul moods and his suspicions.

2. His thoughts on Amaram being too perfect fits. He saw through the facade.

3. The fact that he spoke to his sword before he knew it was a spren. The fact that he made the connection in the first place.

4. He listened to his father despite his initial doubts. When he realized that his father was not crazy, when he told his father he believed in him, Dalinar was finally able to do what he needed to do.

5. He figured out that Kaladin killed Shallans brother before she did.

6. His connections with his own, and his fathers Rhyshadium.

7. The darkeyed prostitute.

8. When he read Shallan and knew she liked Kaladin too.

9. When he killed Sadeas. You could say he listened to Sadeas and thats WHY he killed him.

 

 

Thats all I can think of right now, but I'd like to close with a crazy thought. Could someone belong to more than one Order? Could they be bound by multiple Oaths and draw from up to 4 Surges?

[Yata]

I will not argue aganist the possibility of a Stonewarden Adolin as It's possible also if I believe you discarded too fast the Edgedancer's links to Adolin.

I wanted Just to correct a couple of errors you made in the OP.

Firstly, what It broke a man has not to be' linked to the Order he would join.

It's not "someone care to me was killed so i could become a Windrunner". The Brokeness is Just a Nahel Bond's requirement. But once you are, you are elegible for all' 10 orders (regard your attitude).

Secondly there is no Spren's change involved in Soulcasting. Objects have no Spren (whatever the Rosharans believe) but only a Cognitive Aspect and those are different stuffs.

A Spren doesn't change its type alone.

Also the taker of secret's victims are still the same kind of spren as before. They Simply are Influenced/alligned more from Odium now. But their type remains.

For Maya, to become a Stonewarden's Spren from a Cultivationspren... It's mostly impossible

[FuzzyWordsmith]

10 minutes ago, Yata said:

Secondly there is no Spren's change involved in Soulcasting. Objects have no Spren (whatever the Rosharans believe) but only a Cognitive Aspect and those are different stuffs.

 

I think this is a bit of a semantics thing. One might say that an object's cognitive aspect IS their spren. Or one might say spren ARE cognitive aspects given some more life.

[maxal]

I hate the idea Adolin is bared from the Edgedancers for not being a street urchin.. I find it terribly limiting. One of the reasons I found Adolin so interesting for the Edgedancers was because he was such an unusual pick. I found it so interesting to think a Prince might learn how to trump all societal expectations and be more than what people thought of him. I found it so much more interesting than Lift who's basically a forgotten and for whom, learning her oaths implied such a small learning curve. I envisioned such a nice story arc for Adolin to get there...

Stonewards is so... conventional. There is not much of a story arc to write about it: all it would serve is to get Adolin super-powers and that's not really interesting.

I also dislike the idea Maya could be "changed" into a spren from another order: it would, IMHO, everything.

[Ymawgat]

28 minutes ago, Edvarin said:

I like this thread. It forces me to think. So heres my thoughts. You're right about how well he fits the Stonewards. Its eerie actually. He does possess Edgedancer traits though.

Thanks, I guess the main part of my argument is more that I don't think his reasons for his Edgedancer traits aren't because of his brokenness, while the reasons for his Stoneward traits still might be? You bring up some points I hadn't thought of though, and I agree this is subjective.

32 minutes ago, Edvarin said:

Thats all I can think of right now, but I'd like to close with a crazy thought. Could someone belong to more than one Order? Could they be bound by multiple Oaths and draw from up to 4 Surges?

I feel like something like this will happen. Like I said (somewhere) in the original post: I doubt Adolin will be a normal radiant no matter what happens.

15 minutes ago, Yata said:

Firstly, what It broke a man has not to be' linked to the Order he would join.

It's not "someone care to me was killed so i could become a Windrunner". The Brokeness is Just a Nahel Bond's requirement. But once you are, you are elegible for all' 10 orders (regard your attitude).

Just curious, but what is your evidence for this?

16 minutes ago, Yata said:

Secondly there is no Spren's change involved in Soulcasting. Objects have no Spren (whatever the Rosharans believe) but only a Cognitive Aspect and those are different stuffs.

Have you read the Emperor's soul?

[Varenus]

The fatal flaw in both these theories is that neither stonewards or edgedancers can fly. What's the point of getting powers if you can't fly?

[maxal]

7 minutes ago, Varenus said:

The fatal flaw in both these theories is that neither stonewards or edgedancers can fly. What's the point of getting powers if you can't fly?

Adolin hates flying, he was flight sick during his one flight and threw up his dinner while dangling helplessly up in the air. 

[Varenus]

Just now, maxal said:

Adolin hates flying, he was flight sick during his one flight and threw up his dinner while dangling helplessly up in the air. 

Good thing he wasn't flying then! He was falling......with STYLE  fashion! 

[maxal]

Just now, Varenus said:

Good thing he wasn't flying then! He was falling......with STYLE  fashion! 

Funny thing is when Kaladin started having a bunch of people flying around, I got reminded of roller-coasters and spinning attractions which made me think: "Oh gee someone is gonna get sick doing this... Why are they all smiling? Shouldn't at least one person not like this?".

Yeah. There was. Adolin. And he threw up his dinner. I can add to my list of critics for OB how Brandon did not write Adolin actually being sick  Just kidding  The scene made me laugh.

[Personification]

I find this interesting because when I first saw the whole "Adolin becomes an Edgedancer" thing, my first thought was actually that he fit Stonewards better. However, I am also of the opinion that it will be much better if, and it is very likely that he will, stay non-radiant, so that they have a non-super perspective. Additionally, I agree that Maya turning into a Stonespren doesn't make sense, I just think that he won't Nahel bond her. The reasons that I think he is a Stoneward are that he fits the "going into difficult/impossible battles and winning" description. This is actually shown really clearly in the scene where he learns Maya's name. What says "stubborn and brave to almost the point of stupidity noble sacrifice" like 1v1-ing a thunderclast with only a dead blade, no plate or surges, and little to no likelihood of backup? Also, I think that this shows in his dueling skill and strength, he is stubborn and really good at single-handedly taking down opponents, able to keep calm in the face of high stakes and danger. That is what dueling is about. I fell that Adolin talking to Maya before knowing that she was a spren is less about "remembering those who have been forgotten" and more about respecting the art of dueling and the power of a weapon.

All that said, I do think and hope that Adolin will stay non-radiant, but if he does Nahel bond a spren, I hope it isn't Maya. (And knowing that she is a Cultivationspren, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't mind as long as he was cultivating and nurturing his new Stoneward spren bond.)

[maxal]

10 minutes ago, Personification said:

I find this interesting because when I first saw the whole "Adolin becomes an Edgedancer" thing, my first thought was actually that he fit Stonewards better. However, I am also of the opinion that it will be much better if, and it is very likely that he will, stay non-radiant, so that they have a non-super perspective. Additionally, I agree that Maya turning into a Stonespren doesn't make sense, I just think that he won't Nahel bond her. The reasons that I think he is a Stoneward are that he fits the "going into difficult/impossible battles and winning" description. This is actually shown really clearly in the scene where he learns Maya's name. What says "stubborn and brave to almost the point of stupidity noble sacrifice" like 1v1-ing a thunderclast with only a dead blade, no plate or surges, and little to no likelihood of backup? Also, I think that this shows in his dueling skill and strength, he is stubborn and really good at single-handedly taking down opponents, able to keep calm in the face of high stakes and danger. That is what dueling is about. I fell that Adolin talking to Maya before knowing that she was a spren is less about "remembering those who have been forgotten" and more about respecting the art of dueling and the power of a weapon.

All that said, I do think and hope that Adolin will stay non-radiant, but if he does Nahel bond a spren, I hope it isn't Maya. (And knowing that she is a Cultivationspren, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't mind as long as he was cultivating and nurturing his new Stoneward spren bond.)

I would like to point that, prior to Oathbringer's release, several readers thought Adolin was a much better fit for the Dustbringers. The reasons for it was Adolin really fitted the "brave, foolhardy soldier being too obedient for his own good". I thus advise caution into trying to figure what an order, we have never met, might be about. We do not know what kind of individuals the Stonewards are looking for. Whom would have thought the Dustbringer were looking for weird people interested in breaking things apart and prone to join the Diagram prior to reading it? Now we did read it, it makes a whole lot of sense. 

The same could happen for the Stonewards, thus just because Adolin doesn't easily quit in battles and will push himself to death if other people's life are in danger, it still doesn't mean he is suitable for this order. We are just speculating based on a few sentences on what the Stonewards may be standing for. On my side, what I see is the Stonewards are an Honor-aligned order and, as such, would probably not want Adolin.

I would also personally be seriously frustrated if Adolin were to bond some random sprens and not Maya just because he "seems more suitable for another order". Instead, I'd rather see him grow into a real Edgedancer: so much more interesting, but that's just me. And the reasons Adolin did not name Maya before was because he remembered she once belonged to a Radiant and surely had a name: it wasn't just "respect of this weapon". There also are clues saying how Adolin's behavior for his Blade far exceeds what other duelists do for theirs.

[Personification]

34 minutes ago, maxal said:

I would like to point that, prior to Oathbringer's release, several readers thought Adolin was a much better fit for the Dustbringers. The reasons for it was Adolin really fitted the "brave, foolhardy soldier being too obedient for his own good". I thus advise caution into trying to figure what an order, we have never met, might be about. We do not know what kind of individuals the Stonewards are looking for. Whom would have thought the Dustbringer were looking for weird people interested in breaking things apart and prone to join the Diagram prior to reading it? Now we did read it, it makes a whole lot of sense. 

The same could happen for the Stonewards, thus just because Adolin doesn't easily quit in battles and will push himself to death if other people's life are in danger, it still doesn't mean he is suitable for this order. We are just speculating based on a few sentences on what the Stonewards may be standing for. On my side, what I see is the Stonewards are an Honor-aligned order and, as such, would probably not want Adolin.

I would also personally be seriously frustrated if Adolin were to bond some random sprens and not Maya just because he "seems more suitable for another order". Instead, I'd rather see him grow into a real Edgedancer: so much more interesting, but that's just me. And the reasons Adolin did not name Maya before was because he remembered she once belonged to a Radiant and surely had a name: it wasn't just "respect of this weapon". There also are clues saying how Adolin's behavior for his Blade far exceeds what other duelists do for theirs.

I agree that we maybe shouldn't necessarily make assumptions about radiant orders, and that we shouldn't just say that he gets a non-Maya spren because we want him in a different order, but I disagree with you on some points. Firstly, nothing says that the Edgedancers are less about honor than the Stonewards, and I honestly don't see why an "honor-aligned" order wouldn't want Adolin. Secondly, I think it might also be Brandon's style to have Adolin resurrect his weapon but not have it be a good Nahel bond fit for him. After all, if talking to your dead blade without knowing that it was dead is a sign of being an Edgedancer, what are the odds that the blade happens to have originally been of the correct order (OK, technically all signs point to one in eight being those odds, but the point stands). Also, I feel that while your last point about talking to the blade is more than the regular level of respect is true, I don't know if that is something specifically "edgedancery" I just think it is about Adolin having been instilled from a very young age that "The blade will never fail you, if you fail while wielding it, you fail the blade." (I probably butchered that quote, but I don't have the book on me right now.) This mentality probably ingrained in him a deeper respect for the power and art of his blade, as well as a deeper gratitude at having it, than most. This mixed with him already being the type to respect power explains the behavior better. Finally, all of that aside I am still in the "Adolin resurrects Maya but never gets a Nahel bond" camp.

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Ymawgat said:

Just curious, but what is your evidence for this?

It's a Cosmere Wide stuff. The Investiture need cracks in the Soul to enter and this cracks are caused by Spiritual shock. How those cracks come to be' is meaningless. In theory (also of I assume nobody on Roshar knows) your Soul could be cracked by positive emotions too...It's Just extremely unlikely for that to happen.

You asked me a proof and in the Stormlight Archive It's hard to find a proper One (also because we have still a Little Radiant sample test) but for example. Ym was elegible for both Edgedancer and Truthwatcher's bonds. If the nature of the cracks is indicative of the order...that can't be' possible.

Or Lopen is a Windrunner but nothing in his Story (that we don't know too completely) is about protect the others. And probably the whole "losing an arm" is what he broke him.

4 hours ago, Ymawgat said:

Have you read the Emperor's soul?

Yeah I read It, and how do this fit with the topic?

Everything has three aspects a body, a mind and a soul. But a Spren is not simply a mind. Is living Investiture...what we call Splinter. An object's mind is Just what the others think the object is. It's like...a reflessive Cognitive. You make a chair and over time the wood's cognitive Will start to view itself like a chair rather than a tree.

A Spren could be' Influenced by the collettive minds but It's an indipendent being, It's a bunch of Power that is sentient to a degree.

The Rosharan will call everything "Spren" a Splinter, a Shard, Adonalsium himself (like they call Every Bird "chicken").

But you are talking of something specific. You are talking of a (Broken) Sapient Splinter of (Honor &) Cultivation.

[Aleksiel]

Please don't use Teft's explanation for the first Ideal. That doesn't work for Radiants like Malata for example and Lopen swore 'journey before pancakes'. Calderis has a great topic on this somewhere. Also, we do not know for sure the new Bondsmith Ideal and even if it was only one, so you are making an assumption here, too. There's like half more of Dalinar's speech from the sentence you pointed to where the SF interferes and accepts the Words. Which Words? Still waiting for canon.

Nale said Lift's a disgrace to her Order and while he's crazy that doesn't mean he has no idea what he's talking about, so don't brush off the articulate, elegant and fashionable points so easily. Also, I think you are missing the cultivation part of surgebinding - people don't start as this perfect archetype of a certain order, they grow and evolve. Not everyone manages to swear the last Ideal, as seen in the gemlibrary some struggle with the Fourth. Kaladin had to grow as a character to say the Third Ideal - Kal in WoK wouldn't have been able to say he's protect even those he hates and mean it. Adolin mostly ignoring Syl in Shadesmar is a non-argument so long as I'm concerned, Lift has ignored a bunch of people, too. ED ideals are open to interpretation like all oaths and nowhere do they swear to pay attention and listen to everybody always. Adolin has great potential to be Edgedancer and has bonded the appropriate spren that seems to be waking up (for the lack of a better phrase). Adolin and Lift will make for a great contrast.

[maxal]

10 hours ago, Personification said:

I agree that we maybe shouldn't necessarily make assumptions about radiant orders, and that we shouldn't just say that he gets a non-Maya spren because we want him in a different order, but I disagree with you on some points. Firstly, nothing says that the Edgedancers are less about honor than the Stonewards, and I honestly don't see why an "honor-aligned" order wouldn't want Adolin. Secondly, I think it might also be Brandon's style to have Adolin resurrect his weapon but not have it be a good Nahel bond fit for him. After all, if talking to your dead blade without knowing that it was dead is a sign of being an Edgedancer, what are the odds that the blade happens to have originally been of the correct order (OK, technically all signs point to one in eight being those odds, but the point stands). Also, I feel that while your last point about talking to the blade is more than the regular level of respect is true, I don't know if that is something specifically "edgedancery" I just think it is about Adolin having been instilled from a very young age that "The blade will never fail you, if you fail while wielding it, you fail the blade." (I probably butchered that quote, but I don't have the book on me right now.) This mentality probably ingrained in him a deeper respect for the power and art of his blade, as well as a deeper gratitude at having it, than most. This mixed with him already being the type to respect power explains the behavior better. Finally, all of that aside I am still in the "Adolin resurrects Maya but never gets a Nahel bond" camp.

The Edgedancers are nearly a purely Cultivation aligned order: their sprens are known as Cultivation spren, like spren is known as a Honorspren. So yes, the Edgedancers aren't an honor-aligned orders whereas the Stonewards, standing at the top of the chart are a honor-aligned one. 

Now the reason I tend to bar Adolin from those orders is speculative. From what we have seen and from the little we know, honor-aligned orders have strict oaths to obey which reads more like rules than morality guidelines. This is based on the Windrunners, the Skybreakers and the Bondsmiths all being very demanding orders requiring their knights to follow their strict line of conduct. On his side, Adolin has shown us he wasn't the "strict line of conduct" guy as he has proven, over and over again, how he will be honorable, but not as a finality in itself. In shorts, if he has to choose in between keeping his words, his oaths and following a strict line or other people's well being, he is highly likely to choose the second over the first. This is illustrated in Adolin disobeying the king and his father when he locks himself in prison for Kaladin, when he kills Sadeas and claims he would do it again, when he complains on how the codes are too strict, etc. As such, I do think it is highly probable any honor-aligned spren would skip on Adolin because he's just not the kind of person to put his honor as a leading quality.

The signs Adolin could become an Edgedancer go much farther than him just talking about his Blade. Arguably, he would have talked to any Blade he has won, but he might not have been able to revive any of the other ones. If we look closely at the textual in Shadesmar, we saw Adolin taking charge of people forcing them to rest, making sure Kaladin was following and purposefully engaging him into talking to avoid him from depressing too deeply. He pretended he talks because he is frightened, but the truth was this was a ploy to have an excuse to babble to Kaladin, it was an excuse to have Kaladin think he needed to respond back. Kaladin realized this, but he still went with it. Afterwards, we saw him making sure Maya was following, taking her hands and expressing concern over her being locked away. Instead of being afraid of her (well he was a little afraid at first). instead of being ashamed of her, he proudly call her his friend. He cared for her. Arguably, he would have done the same to the fallen spren of any order, but the same behavior might not have yield the same result. Maya was able to act on Adolin's behalf and this could only have happened if her bond with him had progressed enough to give her the awareness she needs to drive her actions.

As for other actions readers typically associate with Edgedancers readers have noted there is: taking the time to save the prostitute, constantly mourning his fallen soldiers (unlike Dalinar whom never waste a thought for the dead), seeing to Kaladin, saving the boy when fighting the thunderclast, making sure his taylor will be alright when Kholinar falls, etc. It is not just the Blade, it is a variety of many other little things which made readers believe he could grow into an Edgedancer. Is he an obvious choice? No. Is he someone the Circle would have chosen? Probably not. But can he grow into the right way? Yes, definitely and Maya knows this better than the Circle.

Also, as I have said, the text does highlight Adolin's relationship with his Blade, while it may originate from early teachings, is not common. He went beyond those teachings and made it his own. Nobody else is doing what he is doing. It is not just a matter of "All Shardbearers are the same", it is a matter of "Adolin is different".

[Personification]

@maxal I agree with many of your points, though I am still in the not radiant, but if radiant Stoneward camp. Still, I can't really argue against what you are saying, and I want to be clear that I do believe that talking to his blade is "Adolin is different" I just don't necessarily think that that difference is "Edgedancer".

[SomeRandomPeasant]

I may be in the extreme minority here, but I don't want Adolin to conveniently resurrect Maya.  At the very least, it should take a long time, and Adolin has to put in much for effort then him talking to and respecting his sword.  

The breaking the Nahel Bond of a full Knights Radiant has been implied to have very extreme consequences.  The Honorspen on Honor's Path that the bond is not to be taken by those not fully committed and involves the merging of two souls.  The lightspren captain says that Adolin's bond with Maya, while different, there still nothing that can be done.  Even the Stormfather has no clue how to resurrect the dead spren, and he has the most vested interest in seeing the return of his lost children.  The breaking of the bond is apparently the ripping out someone's soul. This is worst then taking someones breath in Warbreaker, worst then even killing someone by destroying there physical body.  If people can just resurrect the blades, then the whole betrayal of an oath would be minimized, something that would go against Honor's nature.  

 It would be a shame if something so seriously, something so intiment, so life threatening could be cured by the power of friendship.  At the moment we need much more progress to cure a lost spen when all the spren who are much more knowledgeable about who the bond works say that curing is impossible.

[maxal]

5 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I may be in the extreme minority here, but I don't want Adolin to conveniently resurrect Maya.  At the very least, it should take a long time, and Adolin has to put in much for effort then him talking to and respecting his sword.  

Oh I actually agree with you: I wouldn't say you are in the minority. I love the Blade revival arc, but I want it to come at the end of a story arc where Adolin grows as a character, where he experiences hardships, where he is seen affected by events, where he appears broken, where he, like other Radiants, takes a stance despite his pain and hurt. I want Adolin to revive Maya within a story arc equivalent to what all other Radiants have gotten.

I do not want Adolin to revive Maya as an afterthought or just because he is "nice". Brandon has a LOT of writing to do to turn Adolin into a fleshed out character, but OB has broken down my hopes he will.

[Ymawgat]

9 hours ago, Yata said:

Or Lopen is a Windrunner but nothing in his Story (that we don't know too completely) is about protect the others. And probably the whole "losing an arm" is what he broke him.

Thats.... my point - Lopen could only say the windrunner oaths when it was personal to him (and his spiritual cracks). There's nothing Adolin has that makes the Edgedancer oaths personal to him, so he doesn't fit that order.

Also, everyone on Roshar says that objects have spren, so that's what I'm going to believe.

13 hours ago, maxal said:

I hate the idea Adolin is bared from the Edgedancers for not being a street urchin.. I find it terribly limiting. One of the reasons I found Adolin so interesting for the Edgedancers was because he was such an unusual pick. I found it so interesting to think a Prince might learn how to trump all societal expectations and be more than what people thought of him. I found it so much more interesting than Lift who's basically a forgotten and for whom, learning her oaths implied such a small learning curve. I envisioned such a nice story arc for Adolin to get there...

Ok so I've been thinking about this comment and though I don't think I'll be able to change your mind I would just like to address on a couple of things:

1: The whole "it's not just street urchins that can be this" thing is like, the opposite of the point Sanderson was trying to make with Lift: he said somewhere (can't find the quote just now) that Lift is interesting to him because she goes against the concept of paladins/knights only being blonde, noble young men, they can also be small Latinx teenagers. For this reason an Edgedancer Adolin seems almost counterproductive to me? The Edgedancer story is the other way around.

2: Even if we say that Lighteyes can and should be Edgedancers I still don't think Adolin fits - he doesn't seem to have personal reasons for swearing Lift's ideals.

3: Lift choosing to remember and listen is in no way a small learning curve, it's an incredibly noble and difficult commitment for her to make.