[OB] Elhokar and Eshonai

[Sylisajunkie]

are sprens now.

[PhineasGage]

I thought you were going to comment on how clearly Brandon likes killing off characters with the initial E. 

That's three now by my reckoning - Elend, Eshonai, and Elhokar. Its obviously a trend.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Ookla the Jovial
added spoiler block for non-OB spoilers

[bo.montier]

7 minutes ago, Sylisajunkie said:

are sprens now.

Do you have any reason to believe that humans can become spren? I'm interested in your theory, but you haven't given much to go on.

We haven't seen any other humans become spren, though Honor did impress a cognitive shadow on the Stormfather, so maybe there's something there. I don't see it, at this point, though.

[Ymawgat]

So, I can't think of any evidence for Elhokar being a spren now. We do see a crypticspren hanging around where he died, but it seems much more likely that this spren is the one he would have bonded to as a knight radiant.

Eshonai I can't see as a spren either, or maybe I just don't want to, mainly because I want her to be a knight radiant willshaper in her own right, rather that just being Venli's spren.

[Bacon]

Nah, I think Elhokar is just straight up dead. Maybe Eshonai though. But Brandon has to be careful with that. He already brought Kelsier back that way. If death is going to mean anything substantial in the Cosmere books, he can't make a habit of bringing back characters who die

[Toaster Retribution]

@PhineasGage Its four dead E-people. You forgot about Evi.

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

@PhineasGage Its four dead E-people. You forgot about Evi.

Oh god, and she was the best one too. I feel I should have to pay penance in some way. Suggestions?

Anyway, thats four. Its definitely a pattern.

So that means..... Eylita is next?

Edited November 29, 2017 by PhineasGage
typo

[Toaster Retribution]

20 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh god, and she was the best one too. I feel I should have to pay penance in some way. Suggestions?

Anyway, thats four. Its definitely a pattern.

So that means..... Eylita is next?

Hah, I think we both need a penance. We forgot a Mistborn Era 2 one as well (Bands of Mourning spoilers):

Spoiler

Edwarn "Suit" Ladrian

Anyway, penance... starting a Torol Sadeas appreciation thread?

And Eylita is totally on the hit list...

[RShara]

I don't see how humans (or Parshendi) can become spren after they die.  Spren are ideas come alive, and are, to varying degrees, Splinters.  Humans, while they have some innate investiture, aren't Splinters.

Plus, in MB:SH, we find out what happens to regular people when they die.

[StrikerEZ]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I don't see how humans (or Parshendi) can become spren after they die.  Spren are ideas come alive, and are, to varying degrees, Splinters.  Humans, while they have some innate investiture, aren't Splinters.

Plus, in MB:SH, we find out what happens to regular people when they die.

Well, we know that Singers can become spren because of the Fused. I think it's unlikely that Eshonai will stay behind as a CS, but it's possible.

 

[RShara]

The Fused aren't spren, though.  They're Cognitive Shadows that can possess living Parshendi.

[bo.montier]

21 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Well, we know that Singers can become spren because of the Fused. I think it's unlikely that Eshonai will stay behind as a CS, but it's possible.

 

The Fused taking over a Parsh is VERY different than the Parsh assuming a form through a spren bond.

Cognitive Shadow =/= Spren, exactly, though there is some overlap.

[RShara]

Also, in order for a Cognitive Shadow to stick around, instead of being drawn to the Spiritual Realm, they have to have some higher Shardic influence, iirc?  So Honor, Cultivation, or Odium would have had to help Eshonai persist.  We know Honor didn't (since he's dead), and the Stormfather seems unlikely to have.  I'm VERY doubtful that Cultivation would have.  And I don't see Odium doing so, since he wouldn't be too fond of non-possessed Eshonai.

It's still possible that some agency intervened to keep Eshonai's CS around, but right now, I don't see any evidence of that.

[Hyarmenatan]

When Venli touches dead Eshonai's body, something flashy zippes away from under the body. My initial understanding of entire Venli <> Timble relatioship was that somehow, a part of Eshonai's soul remained in the Physical Realm and is now trying to influence Venli to revoke new rhytms and leave Odium. I initially thought that Venli bonded Eshonai in a way. There might be something into it still, though.

[RShara]

I think it's all Timbre.  I mean, Timbre probably does remember what Eshonai would have wanted and is trying to encourage Venli toward that.

[Govir]

I was definitely on the Timbre = Eshonai bandwagon at first, but given the Epilogue I think I have to disagree now. If I believe that Timbre = Eshonai, then I have to believe that the Cryptic from the epilogue is Elhokar (which I don't).

Timbre is Timbre, and was hanging around Eshonai because she was a proto-radiant (much like Elhokar was). When Eshonai died prior to the actual bond (again, like Elhokar did), it left Timbre stranded in the Physical Realm. Then Venli comes along and Timbre starts following her around. Similarly, the spren Elhokar was going to bond is stuck in the Physical Realm and is now going to be following Hoid around.

[Nathrangking]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

Hah, I think we both need a penance. We forgot a Mistborn Era 2 one as well (Bands of Mourning spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

Edwarn "Suit" Ladrian

Anyway, penance... starting a Torol Sadeas appreciation thread?

And Eylita is totally on the hit list...

@PhineasGage Edgli is also fair game is she manages to make an appearance. I agree with @Ookla the Toasted about the penance either that or a sebarial groupie page.

[Toaster Retribution]

55 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

 a sebarial groupie page.

I think we could get banned for that actually...

[Aleksiel]

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh god, and she was the best one too. I feel I should have to pay penance in some way. Suggestions?

Anyway, thats four. Its definitely a pattern.

Five. RIP Eth, you poor bridgeman, whose only fault was your name started with the wrong letter 

[StrikerEZ]

5 hours ago, bo.montier said:

The Fused taking over a Parsh is VERY different than the Parsh assuming a form through a spren bond.

Cognitive Shadow =/= Spren, exactly, though there is some overlap.

The reason that the Fused (and other Cognitive Shadows) stay behind is because they were highly Invested before death, so that Investiture permeates their soul and either becomes the soul or preserves (Brandon has been unclear which is the case). It wouldn't be that surprising if Eshonai was Invested enough due to her Radiant bond and was able to become a Cognitive Shadow herself. 

5 hours ago, RShara said:

Also, in order for a Cognitive Shadow to stick around, instead of being drawn to the Spiritual Realm, they have to have some higher Shardic influence, iirc?  So Honor, Cultivation, or Odium would have had to help Eshonai persist.  We know Honor didn't (since he's dead), and the Stormfather seems unlikely to have.  I'm VERY doubtful that Cultivation would have.  And I don't see Odium doing so, since he wouldn't be too fond of non-possessed Eshonai.

It's still possible that some agency intervened to keep Eshonai's CS around, but right now, I don't see any evidence of that.

Well, it doesn't require direct Shardic influence. It only requires the person to be highly Invested. There's a theory that says the reason that there is a myth about reclaiming the Tranquiline Halls is due to the fact that the Knights Radiant are Invested because of their nahel bond, so they become Cognitive Shadows. I don't think Eshonai will ever become a major part of the story again because I believe that Venli has taken her place, but I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes a CS and has a minor influence on the story 

[Vianki]

I think spren are often attracted to something specific, and it's not that uncommon for that same something to be present in siblings. I would say that while Eshonai and Venli were quite different in personality, they were very similar in their pursuit of what they saw as right and best for their people.

We also have (i believe) another case of a spren losing their chosen to death, only to pick a sibling : Syl. 

Quote

"Besides, There was ... another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding..." She smiled, and zipped away.

(OB, P77)

I'm hard pressed to say why, but i'm convinced she's talking about Tien. 

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

The reason that the Fused (and other Cognitive Shadows) stay behind is because they were highly Invested before death, so that Investiture permeates their soul and either becomes the soul or preserves (Brandon has been unclear which is the case). It wouldn't be that surprising if Eshonai was Invested enough due to her Radiant bond and was able to become a Cognitive Shadow herself. 

Well, it doesn't require direct Shardic influence. It only requires the person to be highly Invested. There's a theory that says the reason that there is a myth about reclaiming the Tranquiline Halls is due to the fact that the Knights Radiant are Invested because of their nahel bond, so they become Cognitive Shadows. I don't think Eshonai will ever become a major part of the story again because I believe that Venli has taken her place, but I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes a CS and has a minor influence on the story 

I'll grant you the highly Invested, but there's no evidence that the KR become CS.  Several people spend a significant amount of time in the Cognitive Realm with no KR popping up.  I'm sure that the spren civilizations would also have mentioned it if the KR, whom many of them hate, were hanging around as Cognitive Shadows.

Just being invested a bit isn't enough to become a CS on one's own.  Witness Kelsier, who used a lot of atium, and a lot of Investiture over the course of his life, yet couldn't, by himself, resist for more than a few minutes.  Or Elend, who was pure Mistborn due to ingesting Lerasium, and died while burning duralumin and atium, and still didn't last very long.

They could reasonably be Cognitive Shadows for a short period of time, but without having held a lot more Investiture than I think they have, I really doubt they get to hang around permanently.

 

However, we do have this that I just found, which hints that maybe they are being imprisoned by Odium.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e2545

Quote

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

Are the Cognitive Shadows on Braize the Shades of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*RAFO card* There you are, there you are!

On the other hand:

Quote

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the potential to use investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

(I really need to read more WoB again).  So Mistborn are as invested as a KR.  Mistborn definitely can't stick around as CS without some sort of extra Investiture.  So while KR aren't by default able to become KR, something else could, of course, alter them to be.

Eshonai, as a budding Radiant and Parshendi, doesn't likely have enough Investiture to become a CS on her own.

Edited November 30, 2017 by RShara

[StrikerEZ]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'll grant you the highly Invested, but there's no evidence that the KR become CS.  Several people spend a significant amount of time in the Cognitive Realm with no KR popping up.  I'm sure that the spren civilizations would also have mentioned it if the KR, whom many of them hate, were hanging around as Cognitive Shadows.

Just being invested a bit isn't enough to become a CS on one's own.  Witness Kelsier, who used a lot of atium, and a lot of Investiture over the course of his life, yet couldn't, by himself, resist for more than a few minutes.  Or Elend, who was pure Mistborn due to ingesting Lerasium, and died while burning duralumin and atium, and still didn't last very long.

They could reasonably be Cognitive Shadows for a short period of time, but without having held a lot more Investiture than I think they have, I really doubt they get to hang around permanently.

 

However, we do have this that I just found, which hints that maybe they are being imprisoned by Odium.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e2545

 

Yeah, I'm not really a huge supporter of the KR/Cognitive Shadow theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. Also, the reasons that both Elend and Kelsier couldn't resist for very long were because the Investiture from the Lerasium didn't Invest Elend, it just altered his spiritweb to make him a Mistborn (which doesn't make you Invested, you can just use Investiture), and the atium Kelsier consumed isn't Invested, it's just the physical form of Ruin's Investiture (if atium was Invested, you wouldn't be able to store in it because of the Investiture already there). 

Also, in regards to the KR not popping up in Shadesmar, did you notice how no one popped into Shadesmar, even though several of the little flames that represent people blinked out of existence when Kaladin and them were on the Oathgate plateform right after they transitioned into Shadesmar. I think it's highly likely something I should horribly wrong with the Rosharan afterlife, which would fit with the Tranquiline Halls.

[RShara]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Yeah, I'm not really a huge supporter of the KR/Cognitive Shadow theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. Also, the reasons that both Elend and Kelsier couldn't resist for very long were because the Investiture from the Lerasium didn't Invest Elend, it just altered his spiritweb to make him a Mistborn (which doesn't make you Invested, you can just use Investiture), and the atium Kelsier consumed isn't Invested, it's just the physical form of Ruin's Investiture (if atium was Invested, you wouldn't be able to store in it because of the Investiture already there). 

Also, in regards to the KR not popping up in Shadesmar, did you notice how no one popped into Shadesmar, even though several of the little flames that represent people blinked out of existence when Kaladin and them were on the Oathgate plateform right after they transitioned into Shadesmar. I think it's highly likely something I should horribly wrong with the Rosharan afterlife, which would fit with the Tranquiline Halls.

Sorry, I edited to add another WoB that states Mistborn and KR are invested about the same amount.

[StrikerEZ]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

Sorry, I edited to add another WoB that states Mistborn and KR are invested about the same amount.

Ugh, I've been trying to find a WoB that says that Mistborn are only Invested while they're using the powers. If I find it soon, I'll edit it in here.

EDIT: Hah, I found it! That was easy! (Thank you Arcanum!)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93-odysseycon-2016/#e2675

Quote

Questioner

Is a Mistborn invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.

I feel like this part of the WoB you quoted earlier carries more weight than the later part, plus Brandon never really specified when they're more Invested. I dunno, I just find it unlikely that, if Mistborn were as Invested as KR, they wouldn't last very long in the CR. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Ookla the StrooklaEZ