[OB] Why stone is holy for Shin

[CCQ]

I looked around and I really didn't see this theory so here goes. I really believe that the reason that stone is holy for Shin was a religious way to keep the humans in their spot and not spread to take over Roshar. As on page 1043 the parshmen originally took them in willingly. I am saying they confined them to Shin by telling them not to walk on stone and it became a religious precept. I don't know why they must use soulcast metal. Maybe it was a trade embargo?  Thoughts?

[emailanimal]

I am with you on this one. The Shin are the group/tribe of humans who chose to stay on the territory allotted to them and not  expand into the rest of Roshar. This later turned into the religious prohibition of walking on stone - stone is the territory of Dawnsingers, walking on it is forbidden by the original treaty.

 

The reason why they do not use metal that was mined is the same - to them this is robbing the resources that belong to Dawnsingers. 

 

 

[Etruscan]

If that's true then it's likely we'll be seeing a few windrunners coming from Shinovar soon. Though that actually raises an interesting quandary -  on the one hand keeping millenia old oaths is pretty honourable, on the other as windrunners they would likely be fighting against the Parshendi, which would be a violation of those oaths. 

[Erunion]

Didn’t quite look hard enough - I posted this theory a while ago  

but it’s solid! Good thinking! 

Link for reference:

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/61903-ob-stone-shamanism-and-the-girl-who-looked-up/

[emailanimal]

13 hours ago, Etruscan said:

If that's true then it's likely we'll be seeing a few windrunners coming from Shinovar soon. Though that actually raises an interesting quandary -  on the one hand keeping millenia old oaths is pretty honourable, on the other as windrunners they would likely be fighting against the Parshendi, which would be a violation of those oaths. 

 

Or Skybreakers.  On a somewhat more deliberative note, I don't think it would matter.  There is evidence in the Stormlight Archive (I am referring to the collection of gems Renarin has discovered) of Shin Knights Radiant.  It is possible that they transport from Shinovar directly to Urithiru and back, and never walk on stone (inside the tower is fine), but this would limit their work significantly.  So, I think, it wouldn't matter for a Shin Surgebinder what Order they are.

 

As for fighting against the singers... We have to  be very careful in observing what sort of fights these would be.  This is not a humans vs. singers war. Singers are pawns in this war.  A fight to liberate singers from the influence of Odium is actually a holy fight for the Shin. or at least it should be.

 

The differences may come much later, because the singers who break up with Odium must co-exist with humans on the same land. The Shin are the only ones who did not violate the original "settle in Shinovar" agreement. They will have a distinctly different view of this than, say, the Vorin kingdoms and the Makabaki countries.

 

 

13 hours ago, Erunion said:

Didn’t quite look hard enough - I posted this theory a while ago

Your theory rings true to me. First, we actually see this story discussed twice in the book - so it must be important. It plays a role of foreshadowing The Secret That Broke The Knights Radiant (tm). It works well with our new understanding of the whole exile from Tranquiline Halls and arrival to Roshar business.  

But it is pretty clear that the Shin are the people who stayed behind and stayed true to the original treaties.  It also explains somewhat why their language is a descendant of Dawnchant while most other languages are not.

 

[KidWayne]

I disagree with this one. I think that stone is holy because stone is the focus on Roshar (similar to how metal is the focus for Scadrial). Stone and bonded intelligent lifeforms are the only receptacles for investiture on Roshar. Therefore, this religious system venerates it.  

To me this is the only way to make sense of not mining stone for metal; breaking stone is considered to be blasphemy. Also Nale tells Szeth at the end of WoR that his people "worship the spren of stone." That doesn't work well with a mythologized territorial marker.

[Xavien]

The one aspect that keeps jumping out on me when I think of the Shin vs the rest of the humans on Roshar is the lack of epicanthic fold which is prevalent throughout the rest of the continent.  In our world there is thought that the fold evolved as a form of protection for the eye but other theories discounts this.  Roshar isn't our world tho, so there may be more a case of it's prevalence where highstorms are a major concern. 

At the very least, it shows that there hasn't been a lot of genetic interaction between Shinovar and the rest of Roshar for a really long time. Perhaps even longer than we think because the 4 depictions of the Heralds all show them with an epicanthic fold...

 

 

[Fulminato]

On 20/11/2017 at 6:05 AM, Etruscan said:

If that's true then it's likely we'll be seeing a few windrunners coming from Shinovar soon. Though that actually raises an interesting quandary -  on the one hand keeping millenia old oaths is pretty honourable, on the other as windrunners they would likely be fighting against the Parshendi, which would be a violation of those oaths. 

the shin think of the stormlight holy too (szeth in the first prolugue think how the stonewalker can use the holy stormlight for common illumination)

23 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Or Skybreakers.  On a somewhat more deliberative note, I don't think it would matter.  There is evidence in the Stormlight Archive (I am referring to the collection of gems Renarin has discovered) of Shin Knights Radiant.  It is possible that they transport from Shinovar directly to Urithiru and back, and never walk on stone (inside the tower is fine), but this would limit their work significantly.  So, I think, it wouldn't matter for a Shin Surgebinder what Order they are.

As for fighting against the singers... We have to  be very careful in observing what sort of fights these would be.  This is not a humans vs. singers war. Singers are pawns in this war.  A fight to liberate singers from the influence of Odium is actually a holy fight for the Shin. or at least it should be.

The differences may come much later, because the singers who break up with Odium must co-exist with humans on the same land. The Shin are the only ones who did not violate the original "settle in Shinovar" agreement. They will have a distinctly different view of this than, say, the Vorin kingdoms and the Makabaki countries.

Your theory rings true to me. First, we actually see this story discussed twice in the book - so it must be important. It plays a role of foreshadowing The Secret That Broke The Knights Radiant (tm). It works well with our new understanding of the whole exile from Tranquiline Halls and arrival to Roshar business.  

But it is pretty clear that the Shin are the people who stayed behind and stayed true to the original treaties.  It also explains somewhat why their language is a descendant of Dawnchant while most other languages are not.

we know at least one shin try to conquer the world (Shubreth-son-Mashalan), and for this needed to walk over the stone.

but the 'holy stone' had some ancient root.

“And, [urithitru] at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed.” (Ali-daughter-Hasweth of Shinovar) WoR chapter 47 "feminine wiles"

Edited November 21, 2017 by Fulminato

[emailanimal]

7 hours ago, Fulminato said:

And, [urithitru] at times, our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed.”

This probably has a straightforward explanation - the only way out of Shinovar without stepping on the holy stones is via the Oathgate, and as someone mentioned, the platform and the tower in Urithiru don't count as holy.

[Fulminato]

7 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

This probably has a straightforward explanation - the only way out of Shinovar without stepping on the holy stones is via the Oathgate, and as someone mentioned, the platform and the tower in Urithiru don't count as holy.

yes, but i mean if before the KR leave the tower the shin alredy think the stone holy the concept cannot be recent, but had some ancient root.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Fulminato

[emailanimal]

Just now, Fulminato said:

yes, but i mean if before the KR leave the tower the shin alredy think the stone holy the concept cannot be to recent, but had some ancient root.

 

The root, I think was the "you live here and do not venture beyond the mountains" agreement between the humans fleeing from the "Tranquiline Halls", Dawnsingers, Honor and Cultivation, and, possibly, Odium. The Shin made the stone holy so that they do not leave Shinovar like the other tribes of humans did.  Think of them as the People of the Original Covenant who still hold onto it.  There are some distinct parallels with Judaism here.

[demi]

The books say that the Shin are allowed on Urithiru specifically because it is made from holy stone. The Shin prohibition from stepping on stone is not because stone is holy, but rather because it is profane. Hence, Stones Unhallowed.

[Ari]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:06 AM, KidWayne said:

I disagree with this one. I think that stone is holy because stone is the focus on Roshar (similar to how metal is the focus for Scadrial). Stone and bonded intelligent lifeforms are the only receptacles for investiture on Roshar. Therefore, this religious system venerates it.  

To me this is the only way to make sense of not mining stone for metal; breaking stone is considered to be blasphemy. Also Nale tells Szeth at the end of WoR that his people "worship the spren of stone." That doesn't work well with a mythologized territorial marker.

How would stone be the focus on Roshar?

All signs point towards the relevant factors being highstorms as sources of gaseous investiture, gemstones as repositories for it, and Spren bonds as the relevant factor for initiation, or possibly even the focus itself.

[KidWayne]

6 hours ago, Ari said:

How would stone be the focus on Roshar?

All signs point towards the relevant factors being highstorms as sources of gaseous investiture, gemstones as repositories for it, and Spren bonds as the relevant factor for initiation, or possibly even the focus itself.

Gemstones are stones. They are the repositories for investiture as you said. The spren bonds are the means by which the investiture is accessed by a person, but enslavement of spren via fabrials also allows one to access investiture. The access factor is merely a means of Connecting a person (or device) to the investiture. However, gemstones are always involved in accessing the investiture.  Look at Shadesmar; everything there is represented by spheres and light/flame.

Now compare all of this to Scadrial where we know that ambient investiture is represented as mist. Metal is the focus and can act as a repository for investiture (Feruchemy & Hemalurgy). In the Cognitive Realm there everything is depicted as mist and both metal & people are seen as light.

The only difference is that in Roshar's Cognitive Realm (i.e. Shadesmar) the stones themselves don't glow like metal does in the Cognitive Realm of Scadrial. I wonder if the reason for this is simply because we haven't seen a character comment on infused gemstones from Shadesmar, though. They probably wouldn't be surprised by this, so it isn't something that they find noteworthy.  In all other respects, gemstones are analogous to metal on Scadrial (the only other planet on which we have observed the Cognitive Realm).

[Aminar]

On 11/20/2017 at 3:06 PM, KidWayne said:

I disagree with this one. I think that stone is holy because stone is the focus on Roshar (similar to how metal is the focus for Scadrial). Stone and bonded intelligent lifeforms are the only receptacles for investiture on Roshar. Therefore, this religious system venerates it.  

To me this is the only way to make sense of not mining stone for metal; breaking stone is considered to be blasphemy. Also Nale tells Szeth at the end of WoR that his people "worship the spren of stone." That doesn't work well with a mythologized territorial marker.

Religious ideals change and twist over time as the why for it is lost and only the tradition remains. Like Dalinar's belt. It started as "This is our place" and became more and illogical later. 

Like how not eating pigs makes a lot of sense in a world with poor sanitation.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Aminar

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, KidWayne said:

Gemstones are stones. They are the repositories for investiture as you said. The spren bonds are the means by which the investiture is accessed by a person, but enslavement of spren via fabrials also allows one to access investiture. The access factor is merely a means of Connecting a person (or device) to the investiture. However, gemstones are always involved in accessing the investiture.  Look at Shadesmar; everything there is represented by spheres and light/flame.

Now compare all of this to Scadrial where we know that ambient investiture is represented as mist. Metal is the focus and can act as a repository for investiture (Feruchemy & Hemalurgy). In the Cognitive Realm there everything is depicted as mist and both metal & people are seen as light.

The only difference is that in Roshar's Cognitive Realm (i.e. Shadesmar) the stones themselves don't glow like metal does in the Cognitive Realm of Scadrial. I wonder if the reason for this is simply because we haven't seen a character comment on infused gemstones from Shadesmar, though. They probably wouldn't be surprised by this, so it isn't something that they find noteworthy.  In all other respects, gemstones are analogous to metal on Scadrial (the only other planet on which we have observed the Cognitive Realm).

In addition to the Gemstones, voidspren can bond with the stone on the surface and create Thunderclasts. A good reason to not walk on stones. 

[teknopathetic]

I think there is a combination of ideas here.

 

I think the stone around Shinovar doesn't have spren in the stone, so the unmade can't use it, almost like the land is more devoid of power. 

Also I think they are obeying the original Reservation boundaries set out for them, though not all Shin have done this at all times it seems. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Argent]

8 hours ago, KidWayne said:

The only difference is that in Roshar's Cognitive Realm (i.e. Shadesmar) the stones themselves don't glow like metal does in the Cognitive Realm of Scadrial. I wonder if the reason for this is simply because we haven't seen a character comment on infused gemstones from Shadesmar, though. They probably wouldn't be surprised by this, so it isn't something that they find noteworthy.  In all other respects, gemstones are analogous to metal on Scadrial (the only other planet on which we have observed the Cognitive Realm).

The reason metal glows in the Scadrian subastral is because its conduit to the Spiritual Realm manifests as light in the Cognitive; Stormlight actually does the same thing, it glows - because it offers a pathway to the Spiritual. The gems themselves seem mostly special for their ability to hold the Light.

[Silanda]

To complicate this, the Eila Stele comes out and says what the original Listener gods were- spren, stone and wind (chapter 116 epigraph). Wind/honor is obvious, so you’d think there would be a stone/Cultivation correlation. Which feels weird since it’s usually associated with plants, and growing things... but then there are the million and one references to the strata in the rock, and the garnet running through Urithiru like blood. And the windbreaks in Kholinar and various other structures that seem purpose-built to protect people from storms. 

I think Cultivation’s been growing all this rock, and if she has, the Shin connection to it might be more their historical respect for the stuff people were worshipping when they showed up. 

This might relate in another way to whatever’s going on with Urithiru, because that third spren has to be called the “sibling” for a reason. The listeners/singers are the ones who have a gender that isn’t male or female. 

 

[Maximus]

I suspect it has to do with Taln. The shin would know that his was the only honorblade missing. They may have known what this meant-Taravangian did- and it may have led to the belief over centuries that walking on or breaking stone weakened him.

[Ari]

17 hours ago, KidWayne said:

Gemstones are stones. They are the repositories for investiture as you said. The spren bonds are the means by which the investiture is accessed by a person, but enslavement of spren via fabrials also allows one to access investiture. The access factor is merely a means of Connecting a person (or device) to the investiture. However, gemstones are always involved in accessing the investiture.  Look at Shadesmar; everything there is represented by spheres and light/flame.

Now compare all of this to Scadrial where we know that ambient investiture is represented as mist. Metal is the focus and can act as a repository for investiture (Feruchemy & Hemalurgy). In the Cognitive Realm there everything is depicted as mist and both metal & people are seen as light.

The only difference is that in Roshar's Cognitive Realm (i.e. Shadesmar) the stones themselves don't glow like metal does in the Cognitive Realm of Scadrial. I wonder if the reason for this is simply because we haven't seen a character comment on infused gemstones from Shadesmar, though. They probably wouldn't be surprised by this, so it isn't something that they find noteworthy.  In all other respects, gemstones are analogous to metal on Scadrial (the only other planet on which we have observed the Cognitive Realm).

Ah, I see, we were talking about gemstones because you were dictionary-bashing. Gemstone is a word that includes two things- minerals that are gems, and stones that look nice that are used in jewellery.

Those stones called gemstones exist, but you will note that none of these are called out as being containers for Stormlight.

It's not an impossible theory but you'd/Brandon would really be pushing things to get there based on gems being "stones." That's a bit like claiming water is a salt because of seawater.

[lastofus]

Quote

"No man had ever united the entire continent—not during the Shin invasions,"

Later

Quote

"What about a charge of horses bearing men with spears, like the legends spoke of during the Shin invasion?"

In Oathbringer, there are some thoughts about Shin invasions. I could be wrong, or the written history is different from what actually happened. BUT I think that Shin tried once to conquer Roshar and were defeated. So they're not as docile as they seem to be.

Of course, there's a possibility that Shin Invasions is actually the first attack from humankind on the Dawnsingers. 

 

Anyway, I think one of the Siblings that are on par with Stormfather is the spren of Stone. And Shin people consider both Stormlight and Stone to be holy.

From all the various human races that came to Roshar, something happened to have only Shin stay in the place right? Are they a new race? What made that change? That's the real question for me.

[Beatsmorn]

On 23.11.2017 at 1:25 AM, Argent said:

The reason metal glows in the Scadrian subastral is because its conduit to the Spiritual Realm manifests as light in the Cognitive; Stormlight actually does the same thing, it glows - because it offers a pathway to the Spiritual. The gems themselves seem mostly special for their ability to hold the Light.

Source or didn't happen.

If it was true, metal would glow in every world's Cognitive Realm, as Metallic Arts can be used on any world. I don't think metal glows for EVERYONE in Cognitive Realm, just to Cognitive Shadows/Shards/beings of Investiture, and it's because there is something going on with metal in cosmere - like Investiture condensing to metal in its solid state. Maybe it's somehow connected to metal crystallic structure?

I think that goes the other side - metal glows for those beings because of it's nature in cosmere, and because of it's nature Metallic Arts occured.

[Argent]

6 hours ago, Beatsmorn said:

Source or didn't happen.

Quote

Zmann966

Is the metal on Scadrial specially Invested? Can an Allomancer use metals from other planets?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2)

Metal is a key, not the source of power itself. Most is not specially Invested. It glows because of the power seeking to come through it, not because of the power within it.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39-sandersonchat-twitter-qa-with-audiblecom/#e402

The glow is, probably, tied only to Scadrial or Scadrians because of their Investiture. 

[Farnsworth]

I have a few reasons to think that dead people’s spiritual aspects are in stone. I like this idea though, so now I’m not sure. The link to the other theory is here

Edited November 25, 2017 by Farnsworth