[OB] Stone Shamanism and The Girl Who Looked Up

[Erunion]

Simple theory, but profound historical Rosharan implications. 

The girl who looked up tells the story of a girl who climbed a wall forbidden wall only to find on the other side that she was the monster all along.  

On the other side they also had Stormlight, and Storms. 

After she climbed her people experienced these things as well. (Ostensibly). 

 

Meanwhile, we have some interesting facts. 

Shinovar is behind a giant wall of mountains.

The storms have no power there. There are few (or no?) Spren. There may not be any Stormlight (unconfirmed). Shinovar has a typical ‘human’, Yolish environment, whereas the rest of Roshar is profoundly alien. 

The Shin religion holds walking on stone to be profane, meaning religious shin can never leave their valley.

The Shin also see using Stormlight as illumination to be profoundly disturbing, implying it’s too holy to use like that and that they don’t have/use Stormlight.

Meanwhile, the Listeners were the native rulers of Roshar, who have since been delegated to a slave species. 

 

 

THEORYTIME: 

The stone shamans prohibition against walking on stone wasn’t originally strictly religious; it was part of a deal, a treaty. Humans settled on Roshar in the Shinovar valley, likely with shardic or other magical help (dawnsingers?), but either way some serious terraforming was done to create a ‘wall’ and to give the valley soil. A deal was made with the Listeners (possibly by the humans, possibly by the shard or dawnsingers that helped set up Shinovar) that the Humans wouldn’t cross over the wall; that it would be illegal for them to walk on the bare rock or Roshar. Thus the humans (likely refugees?) were able to settle an enclave of Roshar in peace.

Generations pass, and reasons may have been forgotten (or simply prohibitions and restrictions ignored). It’s possible too that new humans came to the valley of truth or any number of things. But what happened was that someone climbed the wall, and broke the treaty. After that, or as part of that, more humans came over the wall from Shinovar and began to colonize Roshar. Were they adventurers and colonists? Were they refugees fleeing ethnic discrimination by the Shin? Were they ‘truthless’, banished from the valley? Or did they just want new lands to settle? 

Either way, significant populations of humans crossed the mountains and began to spread throughout Roshar, stealing the fire from the gods and opening Pandora’s box, all at once. This began the millennia long struggle between Humans and Listeners (although it may have had long stretches of peace, commingling and cooperation - see the herdazians and horneaters). 

Likely, it is the human/listener tensions that Odium was attracted to/fanned into the flames of war and hatred, leading to the cycle of desolations where Odium would infiltrate both sides and seed them with voidbringers. Eventually, the Listeners being more naturally susceptible to Spren bonds and having more righteous anger against the humans were suborned en masse by Odium. 

(Alethi and Iriali are both ethnically interesting with their hair - likely they arrived on Roshar later). 

 

Tl;dr - Stone shamanism is a memory of early humanities treaties with the Listeners, and The Girl Who Looked Up is about those treaties starting to fall apart/early human forays from the valley of Truth. 

 

[Siaun Sanche]

1 hour ago, Erunion said:

Tl;dr - Stone shamanism is a memory of early humanities treaties with the Listeners, and The Girl Who Looked Up is about those treaties starting to fall apart/early human forays from the valley of Truth. 

I like this theory a lot.

[Toaster Retribution]

Works very well, although part of me wants the story to be about Shallan herself in some way.

[Yata]

15 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Works very well, although part of me wants the story to be about Shallan herself in some way.

I honestly doubt It was a Story about Shallan... It's a relative famous story

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

I honestly doubt It was a Story about Shallan... It's a relative famous story

I meant that it is a story that is supposed to reflect something from Shallans life or arc. A story Brandon wrote for that purpose.

[Yata]

24 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I meant that it is a story that is supposed to reflect something from Shallans life or arc. A story Brandon wrote for that purpose.

Could be' both

[Toaster Retribution]

16 minutes ago, Yata said:

Could be' both

True.

[Erunion]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

Could be' both

Most good stories are. 

[lookingglass]

What about the girl's white hair when Shallan is lighweaving the story? Could that mean the humans came from Nalthis and had the royal locks? or maybe the child just grew old during her climb?

[Yata]

5 minutes ago, lookingglass said:

What about the girl's white hair when Shallan is lighweaving the story? Could that mean the humans came from Nalthis and had the royal locks? or maybe the child just grew old during her climb?

Reading the story I understood she grew old in the time she spent to reach the top

[Leyrann]

I figured that, maybe, part of "reality" seeped into the story, and that was what changed the hair colour.

[AbsentKeeper]

Ive already said this a couple times, but I may as well put it in the dedicated thread as well.

Shallan's story gives me massive dejavu vibes.

I can't figure out why, and I've probably already spent 3 hours looking for another book, or a real life folk tale, or even a real place that shares some similarities, but I can't find anything at all.

I feel like I've read it before, almost word for word. The girl climbing the wall and finding out her people were the monsters (with the stairs on the outside), the twisted faces in the wall, and tying a hammock with scarves all seem so familiar that I can't help but think its based on something I heard as a child. From the searching I've done, though, it looks like I'm probably crazy.

Aside from my crazy rant though, I really like this theory, and it seems very plausible.

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Isaiah Zayth]

12 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Ive already said this a couple times, but I may as well put it in the dedicated thread as well.

Shallan's story gives me massive dejavu vibes.

I can't figure out why, and I've probably already spent 3 hours looking for another book, or a real life folk tale, or even a real place that shares some similarities, but I can't find anything at all.

I feel like I've read it before, almost word for word. The girl climbing the wall and finding out her people were the monsters (with the stairs on the outside), the twisted faces in the wall, and tying a hammock with scarves all seem so familiar that I cant help but think its based on something I heard as a child. From the searching I've done, though, it looks like I'm probably crazy.

Aside from my crazy rant though, I really like this theory, and it seems very plausible.

 

I think we've found who the story is really about. That one time you climbed the wall at summer camp was more significant than you first thought...

[AbsentKeeper]

3 minutes ago, Isaiah Zayth said:

I think we've found who the story is really about. That one time you climbed the wall at summer camp was more significant than you first thought...

You caught me, my life story is secretly the plot for the back 5 Stormlight books, this is just the first teaser.

In reality? Oh God I hope not, that would be boring 

[Stark]

19 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Ive already said this a couple times, but I may as well put it in the dedicated thread as well.

Shallan's story gives me massive dejavu vibes.

I can't figure out why, and I've probably already spent 3 hours looking for another book, or a real life folk tale, or even a real place that shares some similarities, but I can't find anything at all.

I feel like I've read it before, almost word for word. The girl climbing the wall and finding out her people were the monsters (with the stairs on the outside), the twisted faces in the wall, and tying a hammock with scarves all seem so familiar that I can't help but think its based on something I heard as a child. From the searching I've done, though, it looks like I'm probably crazy.

Aside from my crazy rant though, I really like this theory, and it seems very plausible.

You may be remembering the story from a not so recent Rothfuss work, that is in spoliers in case you have not read it.:

 

Spoiler

https://thetinkerspacks.com/products/princess-1?variant=768714399

Spoilered for reasons, you can even see the wall in the distance.

Except for the rushed ending of "now storms came and everything was awful" - there are some interesting parallels here.

 

But at the end of the day, there are number of parables, or moral stories where the POV character judged someone else only to find at the end that they too were judged to be monsters by someone else.  It is an important lesson on perspective for children to learn.

[AbsentKeeper]

36 minutes ago, Stark said:

You may be remembering the story from a not so recent Rothfuss work, that is in spoliers in case you have not read it.:

 

  Hide contents

https://thetinkerspacks.com/products/princess-1?variant=768714399

Spoilered for reasons, you can even see the wall in the distance.

Except for the rushed ending of "now storms came and everything was awful" - there are some interesting parallels here.

The title doesn't ring any bells, but I'll definitely be buying a copy so I can check, just in case you just solved my madness. This is the best suggestion I've gotten since I started looking.

 

[Stark]

1 minute ago, Cowmanthethird said:

The title doesn't ring any bells, but I'll definitely be buying a copy so I can check, just in case you just solved my madness. This is the best suggestion I've gotten since I started looking.

In the interests of full disclosure, many of the elements of this story are similar, yet entirely different to Shallan's story.  However, it is joyfully Grim and a worthwhile read.  But, take head of the gold foil sticker that comes with it, proclaiming that "This rust is not for kids. Seriously." to heart.  I would not recommend reading this to young children, or at least not your own, despite the joyful exterior and friendly looking pictures.

[AbsentKeeper]

Just now, Stark said:

In the interests of full disclosure, many of the elements of this story are similar, yet entirely different to Shallan's story.  However, it is joyfully Grim and a worthwhile read.  But, take head of the gold foil sticker that comes with it, proclaiming that "This rust is not for kids. Seriously." to heart.  I would not recommend reading this to young children, or at least not your own, despite the joyful exterior and friendly looking pictures.

Haha yeah, that's pretty much what the description I googled said. It sounds like something I'd read on my own at about 13 or 14 though.

I'm honestly not too bothered that it's not that similar to 'the girl who looked up,' even though I feel like I remember a lot of details, here in this Shallan thread we all know how weird memory can be 

I very well could be remembering a lot of different things out of context, this seems closeish, thematically speaking.

[dbulick]

Similar theme to a number of books/stories.  The first one that jumped out at me was I am Legend.  He spends the whole book thinking one thing, but at the end turns out to be the real monster.

[Erunion]

‘The Girl Who Looked Up’ seems to be a few different myths/stories married together with a Stormlight twist. 

You have the Prometheus and Pandora myths in there. 

The main character and the tone of the story are both strongly reminiscent of the Fairyland series by Catherynne M. Valante (which I highly recommend - the title of the first is The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship or Her Own Making - a title which should be recommendation enough). The scarf is also reminiscent of something from that series, but could be related to something else (Warbreaker?). 

The edifice of a giant wall that needed to be climbed rings a bell, but I can’t place it. 

What this all means though, is that Sanderson wrote a beautiful and enduring myth/fairytale if all of us are having such a strong déjà-vu reaction. 

[StormingTexan]

I like the theory and posted something a lot less eloquently in the other thread about the story. One thing that was brought up in the that thread that does not necessarily disprove this but make me think the theory needs to be fleshed out a little more is a WoB stating there were humans and listeners there before the shattering. I still think it is possible that these two groups didn't co-exist well before Honor and Cultivation showed up on Roshar. Maybe Cultivation cultivated a more hospitable place for humans modeled after Yolen and Honor helped with an oath to keep the peace. Possible the humans were the even slaves to the Listeners before they arrived. My only problem with this is it seems pretty one sided I do not see what the Listners got out of it. 

 

[Mason Wheeler]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

My only problem with this is it seems pretty one sided I do not see what the Listners got out of it.

You don't?  Look what happened to them ever since humans emerged (assuming this theory is true).  What they get out of it is *that* not happening!

[StormingTexan]

2 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

You don't?  Look what happened to them ever since humans emerged (assuming this theory is true).  What they get out of it is *that* not happening!

I guess that is true if the humans were always evil ones. I had suspected that there may have been a reversal of the current roles and the humans may have been enslaved to the Listeners until Honor and Cultivation came along to make their safe haven but I have no basis at all for that. So it is possible the human inhabitants were always running a muck and this was a means to create peace until the humans decided not to hold up their end of the deal.

[king of nowhere]

I also felt a deja vu from the story, and I haven't read that specific one you linked.

there are, however, a few archetypes that can ring in it: the hystory of an ancient prohibition and somebody disobeying it, which could resonate both with the adam and eve myth (climbing the wall as akin to eating the apple; notice how in both cases the person gains the capacity to discern good from evil) and with prometheus (somebody disobeying a prohibition and gaining powerful knowledge, but also a punishment). the idea of someone pushing the boundaries of the unknown could also be related to ulysses, and possibly to some more myths I don't know about.

As for the idea that the wall is the shin mountains, it makes sense and several people suggested the idea in the chapter discussion. I doubt it's so simplicistic, but there's probably something there.

Edited October 30, 2017 by king of nowhere

[Rasha]

There is also the classic three questions / three answers that sends the protagonist into her hero's journey. It's the Rule of Three, and it's very common in popular myths. 

Everything worth saying must be said thrice, because it can be denied twice. 

It is also a reliquat of the old times, were tales were told by voice, and never written. The Rule of Three allowed an easier memorization, which is why it is present in all the old myths, and still used now as a reference. 

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfThree

 

There, I send you on a TVtropes journey, may the Allmighty save you from spending your whole day on it.