[OB] Kaladin and Jasnah as a couple

[Greywatch she/her]

2 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Huh?

Sapphic is interest in women. Aro is aromantic, ie. not feeling romantic attraction. Ace is asexual, ie. not feeling sexual attraction.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Sapphic is interest in women. Aro is aromantic, ie. not feeling romantic attraction. Ace is asexual, ie. not feeling sexual attraction.

I know, I'm an uncultured swine. But if she's not I interested romantically or sexually what is she interested in. Just friendship? Does that mean she doesn't want to be friends with men?

[Greywatch she/her]

57 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I know, I'm an uncultured swine. But if she's not I interested romantically or sexually what is she interested in. Just friendship? Does that mean she doesn't want to be friends with men?

Depends; significant others are not off the table. Relationships with men are not cut off.

[Aminar]

12 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I know, I'm an uncultured swine. But if she's not I interested romantically or sexually what is she interested in. Just friendship? Does that mean she doesn't want to be friends with men?

It means someone doesn't want to date or have sex. We all have dozens of friends like that. Most of us have them across the gender spectrum. We hang out with them. Play games with them. Give gifts to them. Some are as close as family. But no candle-light dinners or sexual contact. Brandon's Writing Excuses Podcast touched on this a couple weeks ago if you want a more in depth look. 

[Kuroki]

On 6/19/2020 at 4:06 AM, Wax said:

She’s no Nun!!! She dresses to impress.  So, I just can’t see the the asexual angle.

Other than that untethered scene released after WoR release, she has had no first person viewpoints.

She’s got that adversarial vibe going against all women:-

- Navani (Navani complained about Jasnah growing up too soon)

- Shallan (didn’t want her)

- Brother’s wife (wanted to assassinate)

just makes me think that she’s a headstrong lesbian.

 

 

 

Ace has nothing to do with how we dress.  Ace has nothing to do with being a "Nun".  Jasnah's vibe isn't going against women, it's her apostasy.  As an asexual apostate scholar (irl) myself, Jasnah has always been the character I identified the most with.

[+Wax he/him]

10 hours ago, Kuroki said:

Ace has nothing to do with how we dress.  Ace has nothing to do with being a "Nun".  Jasnah's vibe isn't going against women, it's her apostasy.  As an asexual apostate scholar (irl) myself, Jasnah has always been the character I identified the most with.

 

My impression of Jasnah came from a big 5 personality traits theory which one of the most reliable personality theories going around.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

The question than is what kind of person is Jasnah. I think of her as neurotic, ambivert/extravert, disagreeable, open to new experiences and highly motivated/conscientious.

Extraverted people are generally more inclined to dress up regularly because of the need to seek external stimuli.  They like bling and material things (note that doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate books, etc.).

As the below link also explains, there is higher likelihood of sexual activity for extraverted people tempered by neuroticism going the other way.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29878796/

Quote

Extraversion was positively related to sexual activity (r+ = .17) and risky sexual behavior (r+ = .18), and negatively related to symptoms of sexual dysfunction (r+ = -.17). ...Less robust evidence indicated that extraversion related negatively, and neuroticism positively, to child sexual abuse,

So, I am not discounting her sexuality being repressed by childhood events, alluded multiple times in the books.

http://www.tpof-thepsychologyoffashion.com/features/fashion-psychology/personality-traits

See multiple quotes where Jasnah is described as perfect in her appearance 

Quote

Jasnah rounded the giant pillar, freehand resting on the crystal. The princess wore red, lips painted to match, hair up and run through with swordlike hairspikes with rubies on the pommels. Storms. She was perfect. A curvaceous figure, tan Alethi skin, light violet eyes, and not a hint of aberrant color to her jet-black hair. Making Jasnah Kholin as beautiful as she was brilliant was one of the most unfair things the Almighty had ever done. Shallan hesitated in the doorway, feeling much as she had upon seeing Jasnah for the first time in Kharbranth. Insecure, overwhelmed, and—if she was honest—incredibly envious. Whatever ordeals Jasnah had been through, she looked no worse for wear. That was remarkable, considering that the last time Shallan had seen Jasnah, the woman had been lying unconscious on the floor while a man rammed a knife through her chest.

So, overall, an intimidating fashion presentation.

And, this lines up here

Quote

neurotics see fashion as armor. Because of their fragility, neurotics dress in a fiercer way that provides the emotional protection they need. They prefer black over colors, solids over prints, and generally, more “directional” fashion, an industry term used to describe the most trendsetting end of clothes on the market. Basically, things that the average person finds weird, or admires, but doesn’t quite feel they could pull off. Wearing these more out-there or aggressive designs works to keep others at a distance from the neurotic. 

 

http://www.tpof-thepsychologyoffashion.com/features/fashion-psychology/personality-traits

So, in my eyes, her ambiversion is tempered by high neuroticism, and this is making her come across as disinterested.  

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Wax

[IllNsickly he/him]

I like the fact that BS handled Kaladin’s most recent romantic interest off screen.

Personally, I would prefer to see neither Kaladin or Jasnah in ANY kind of romantic relationship for the duration of the books.

Edited September 25, 2020 by IllNsickly

[Frustration he/him]

12 minutes ago, IllNsickly said:

I like the fact that BS handled Kaladin’s most recent romantic interest off screen.

Personally, I would prefer to see neither Kaladin or Jasnah in ANY kind of romantic relationship for the duration of the books.

Finnally another with correct oppinions.

[+Bliev she/her]

@Wax I wouldn’t at all rate Jasnah as high on extroversion. Adolin yes, jasnah, no. Also, a .17 correlation is less than 4% variance in sexual activity, and non-causal, so I think it’s more than a bit speculative. The fashion stuff is not really backed up by research either.

just staying textual, I think she’s never shown any sexual interest in anyone of any gender or species, so ace is a reasonable guess for me for her.

[ZenBossanova]

15 hours ago, Bliev said:

@Wax I wouldn’t at all rate Jasnah as high on extroversion. Adolin yes, jasnah, no. Also, a .17 correlation is less than 4% variance in sexual activity, and non-causal, so I think it’s more than a bit speculative. The fashion stuff is not really backed up by research either.

just staying textual, I think she’s never shown any sexual interest in anyone of any gender or species, so ace is a reasonable guess for me for her.

I don't see Jasnah as the kind to just flirt for fun. 
If she is going to go for someone, you won't see it until she is 110% ready and "going for the jugular", so to speak. She keeps her plans and thoughts close to her. She doesn't just tell people what she is thinking. 

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

Honestly, this pairing is just so funny, but it will never happen.

Kaladin needs a partner who acts like Tien or Syl.  Someone who is a light in his life that can drag him out of his melancholy.  I don’t know what the hell Jasnah wants, whether that be a particular type of person or no person at all.  But I don’t see any type of romance between them, just a healthy level of antagonism.

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Honestly, this pairing is just so funny, but it will never happen.

Kaladin needs a partner who acts likmye Tien or Syl.  Someone who is a light in his life that can drag him out of his melancholy.  I don’t know what the hell Jasnah wants, whether that be a particular type of person or no person at all.  But I don’t see any type of romance between them, just a healthy level of antagonism.

I never said Romance, but I have a thread about political marriage elsewhere.

[Use the Falchion]

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Honestly, this pairing is just so funny, but it will never happen.

Kaladin needs a partner who acts like Tien or Syl.  Someone who is a light in his life that can drag him out of his melancholy.  I don’t know what the hell Jasnah wants, whether that be a particular type of person or no person at all.  But I don’t see any type of romance between them, just a healthy level of antagonism.

Respectfully I disagree. Kaladin doesn't need another Syl...because he already has Syl. And then Sanderson makes it pretty clear at the end of Oathbringer that Shallan is going to be his new Tien. Combine those two with what Bridge Four and Adolin constantly try to do for the man (provide companionship, hope, and overall attempts to elevate his emotional state), I don't think he needs a partner to do that. A support system isn't made up entirely of "cheerleaders" after all. You need mentors (Kaladin's parents and Dalinar), cheerleaders (Syl and Shallan), peers, friends and allies (Adolin and Bridge Four (specifically Rock and Teft)), and those who love you but aren't afraid to hide the truth either. Kaladin is missing that last category, and someone like Jasnah could fill it pretty well. 

Conversely, Jasnah's view of things is both too grand and too myopic at the same time. She's either utterly focused on defending her family or those she sees as "hers," or utterly focused on saving the world. We've seen very little middle ground from her. Being queen of Alethkar will definitely help in this regard, but so would a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with Kaladin since he probably wouldn't allow her to forget that the world consists of more than just her family. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[Subvisual Haze]

I think there might be an argument that Kaladin would be drawn to Jasnah by her personal strength and emotional fortitude.  She did have some sort of breakdown as child which she recovered from.

[Razrback16]

On 9/25/2020 at 10:29 PM, Use the Falchion said:

Respectfully I disagree. Kaladin doesn't need another Syl...because he already has Syl. And then Sanderson makes it pretty clear at the end of Oathbringer that Shallan is going to be his new Tien. Combine those two with what Bridge Four and Adolin constantly try to do for the man (provide companionship, hope, and overall attempts to elevate his emotional state), I don't think he needs a partner to do that. A support system isn't made up entirely of "cheerleaders" after all. You need mentors (Kaladin's parents and Dalinar), cheerleaders (Syl and Shallan), peers, friends and allies (Adolin and Bridge Four (specifically Rock and Teft)), and those who love you but aren't afraid to hide the truth either. Kaladin is missing that last category, and someone like Jasnah could fill it pretty well. 

Conversely, Jasnah's view of things is both too grand and too myopic at the same time. She's either utterly focused on defending her family or those she sees as "hers," or utterly focused on saving the world. We've seen very little middle ground from her. Being queen of Alethkar will definitely help in this regard, but so would a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with Kaladin since he probably wouldn't allow her to forget that the world consists of more than just her family. 

Well-said.

[Hilfandor he/him]

I enjoy the Kaladin/Jasnah ship not for the relationship, but for the in world characters trying to make it happen.  I want Lift and Syl to meet, and decide Mr. And Ms. Cranky pants (Lifts names for them) should be Mr. And Mrs. Cranky couple. And Syl, trying to do everything to make Kal happy, working with Lift to make it happen.

[Medium he/they]

can i just be like "thor approves"

[Wyndleblade she/her]

With regards to Jasnah and romance, I always remember how she reacted to arranged marriages in WoK. Jasnah was very surprised when Shallan reacted with gratitude to being set up, without permission, to an arranged marriage. She seemed taken a back that Shallan would want to marry for a reason that was not love. I did not get the feeling that it was a power issue, ie being beholden to a man in the Alethi hierarchy, but Jasnah's belief in love. I have always been more interested in Jasnah in regards to relationships than Shallan because of that. 

On the opinion of Jasnah and Kaladin, I have always liked the couple even before they met ,especially after the small interactions between then in OB. One of the only scenes in OB was when they each had polarizing opinions on the parshmen. Jasnah's stance was they could not save everyone while Kaladin thought she was cold hearted. It I agree with both of them and I think they both could be stronger in seeing the others opinion. If there is one person who could help Kaladin through his depression my bet is on Jasnah who has a more practical approach to what she can accomplish(and has possibly dealt with depression in the past).

Also, a couple of thought about Wheel of Time (spoilers)(highlight to read):

While Jasnah reminds me a lot of time of Moraine, her and Kaladin remind me of Nynaeve and Lan. One reason is the age difference, which I never saw as a problem Nynaeve was so mature and so is Kaladin, although this time it is an older woman. Another parallel is one is royalty and one is not and one is a main POV while the other one you mostly see through the eyes of others, again the genders are switched. One last one is one of them is all about duty and not living while the other cares most about protecting those she loves. ( Writing this I am realizing that maybe Jasnah is a lot more like Nynaeve than I thought). Just like Nynaeve and Lan were the great love story that lasted through all 14 books and was heavily developed throughout, I see Kaladin and Jasnah's doing the same. This time though it will be a slower build up because that is the sort of characters they are.

Regardless I can't wait to see what develops!

Edited September 29, 2020 by Wyndleblade

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Wyndleblade said:

 If there is one person who could help Kaladin through his depression my bet is on Jasnah who has a more practical approach to what she can accomplish(and has possibly dealt with depression in the past).

That is not how depression works, you can't logic your way out of it, people thinks it's inescapable sadness but it isn't, it's apathy, it's the inability to care, that's what the wretch represents to Kaladin a man who doesn't care. Reason won't help.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Frustration

[Vin_4_da_Win]

On 9/25/2020 at 5:46 PM, SomeRandomPeasant said:

But I don’t see any type of romance between them, just a healthy level of antagonism.

Yes a "healthy level of antagonism" sums it up perfectly.  I don’t understand why people want to muck up a perfectly interesting relationship.  Why can’t two people just remain single?  Why cant two people of the opposite sex form a relationship that doesn't involve romance?