[OB] Fourth Windrunner Ideal

[minima]

I will live and let people die. And I would forgive myself.

[Sebarial]

I will let those I cannot protect die to protect those I can. 

[Winds Alight]

"I will forgive myself for not being able to save everyone."

That's at least something he'll need to do and it's going to be so difficult.

Or maybe it's even simpler:
"I will forgive myself."

Which wouldn't only be a challenge for Kaladin, but also for the other 3rd Oath Windrunner we have so far: Teft.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Winds Alight

[Govir]

14 hours ago, Sebarial said:

I will let those I cannot protect die to protect those I can. 

I really do think the 4th oath has something to do about failing to protect people or not protecting everyone, and being ok with it. I don't know the exact wording, or even have a guess. Tthe epigraph with the Windrunner from the past who can't say the 4th eludes to *not* protecting people.

[Gasper]

"The protection of the many is more important than the protection of the few." 

[Aeshdan]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 5:59 PM, Factfinder said:

I have a different take on the fourth Ideal than the general consensus of this topic seems to be converging on.  Here’s my version:

“No one can be strong all the time.  I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself.”

For that matter, here’s my take on the fifth Ideal while I’m at it:

“I will lead my allies in the defense of _________.”

Where “_________” is left up to the individual Windrunner to decide.  Maybe it’s as restrictive as “my little brother Oroden”.  Maybe it’s as broad as “Roshar” or even “the cosmere” for the really ambitious.  But let’s get into reasons.

(By the way, this is my first post; I don’t really…. do… forums usually, but Sanderson has enough books out with enough subtleties that it’s nearly impossible for one person to pick up on everything by themselves.  So here we are with the exception to the rule.  I mention this in the event that I violate some rule or etiquette without realizing it.  My sincere apologies if so.)

When trying to work out the fourth Ideal, I focused on different moments in the Stormlight Archive than other people seemed to.  I considered the moment in Way of Kings where Kaladin nearly saw Bridge Four wiped out in a retaliatory strike after distracting the Parshendi with his bone-covered armor, only for Dalinar to save the day by deliberately cutting down the enemy archers.  Or when Kaladin killed the Chasmfiend in Words of Radiance, but only managed to do so by borrowing Shallan’s shardblade and taking advantage of an assist from her illusions.  Or during the climax of Oathbringer, where Kaladin and Shallan are out of stormlight and Adolin is injured, and the only reason all three of them didn’t die right then and there was another assist from Dalinar.

In all of these scenes, Kaladin curses himself for not being able to protect those around him on his own.  And that’s what I think the fourth Ideal really needs to address: the fact that, powerful as he is, Kaladin must accept he is just one man and cannot do everything by himself.  He needs allies.  More importantly, he needs to understand that sometimes HE is the one those allies will need to protect, and that he is just as deserving of that protection as everyone else.

Syl even flat-out tells him this during the climax of Oathbringer (chapter 119) when she says, “Maybe you don’t have to save everyone Kaladin.  Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.”  In context that quote comes across as her merely reassuring Kaladin that everything will be okay, but I think it was actually more hidden-in-plain-sight foreshadowing from Sanderson.  Keep in mind that this quote came immediately after Kaladin tried to say the fourth Ideal so he could claim more power and save his allies.  If my suspicion about what the forth ideal entails is correct, this would neatly explain his failure to do so.  His intentions at the time were in direct conflict with the oath he had to swear. 

 Notice as well that the wording of this oath is specific.  “I will accept the protection of my allies.”  Not, “I will leave others to die.”  Not, “I will throw innocents into harm to better save my own skin.”  No, the protection has to be just as freely offered as Kaladin’s protection of others, and from allies who are therefore presumably capable of offering that protection.  A child could not rightly be considered an ally in a war, so there’s no worry about a conflict of oaths if Kaladin refuses to let a five year old fight his battles for him either.

Finally, I see this oath as a stepping-stone in the Windrunner’s oaths moving from protection to leadership, since those are the attributes they are supposed to be representing.  The progression of oaths would therefore be:

Second: declaration to protect others.

Third: refinement of the previous oath.  The Windrunner will protect for selfless reasons.

Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own.  Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now).

Fifth: refinement of the previous oath.  The Windrunner assumes leadership of his or her allies in the defense of some favored group or individual.

So what do other readers think?  Personally, I believe this is a much more positive oath than vowing to accept that some people can’t be saved (which seems to violate Life before Death to my mind) or that it may be necessary to murder innocents for the greater good (which seems to violate Journey before Destination), while solving many of the same moral issues.

 

I like your Fourth Ideal, and I think your reasoning makes sense, but I have a different guess for the Fifth: I will not protect others from the trials they need to grow strong. It seems to me that that one really encapsulates the culmination of what it means to protect, that you must know not only when others need to be protected, but when, in the long run, helping them would only hurt them worse.

 

[Solant]

Based on the wind runner gem from Urithiru, this oath almost has to be in regards to actively not protecting someone, or allowing others to protect or sacrifice if they so choose (it's been awhile, but wasn't it happening at the same time Adolin was having a "go on without me and save yourself" moment?).

[Winds Alight]

Another thought:
The Windrunner gem says something like "am I not supposed to protect others?", which, if the Windrunners from back then were the same dramatic all-or-nothing little storms like Kaladin is, an Oath like "I will let go of those I cannot save", easily could translate to them as "I have to stop protecting others!? D:"

So, uh, maybe there's not so much to it if you're a sensble human being with realistic expectations.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Winds Alight

[Auralis]

On 11/19/2017 at 0:26 AM, rhaiynebow said:

thinking about the fact that he gets plate with fourth ideal and the fact that he tends to protect people with little to no regard for his own safety, could it be "I will protect myself first, so that I may protect others"? That would fit with the windrunner epigrah, and with the flashback with Nalma(?) where she was telling him to go and leave her so he wouldn't get caught, and in Shadesmar where they were surrounded by the fused (protect himself and the others from the fused as an immediate threat to himself vs. going to try to save Dalinar).

I am doing a re-read of the books right now and Kal's 4th ideal has me so curious! I agree 100% with Rhaiynebow's idea above about plate. Plate is clearly about protecting yourself and I don't see it being gifted to someone who doesn't value themselves as someone worthy of being saved or protected.
My vote for the fourth ideal is "I will ensure my own safety before assisting others".

[Rasarr]

10 hours ago, Auralis said:

"I will ensure my own safety before assisting others"

The Second Ideal of Knights Paramedic. (sorry, bad joke)

Edited December 29, 2018 by Rasarr

[GeluSimia]

I'm wondering if the 4th ideal will head the opposite direction towards something beginning with 'I will slay'. I think Kaladin's biggest conflict right now is his need to kill those he empathizes with, or that he can't figure out how to protect both sides from eachother. 

[+Oltux72]

On 12/18/2018 at 5:32 AM, Gasper said:

"The protection of the many is more important than the protection of the few." 

But that is precisely what Syl rejected. Elhokar needed to be protected, even at the cost of the common good.

 

On 12/17/2018 at 6:38 AM, Winds Alight said:

"I will forgive myself for not being able to save everyone."

That's at least something he'll need to do and it's going to be so difficult

Yet gets Windspren specifically when he thinks about not failing like he failed in Kholinar, twice. His failure there was not in failing to let people die. He failed to kill to carry out his mission.

[Matt Mills]

Hi, I'm new to the community here, and I apologise if this repeats what someone else says, since I didn't read *all* of the posts in this thread.... But it seems to me that the 4th ideal needs to be about accepting, rather than just acknowledging, the losses and weaknesses that the radiants have. Like, "I will protect those I can, and forgive myself the rest"

I think this works because it 1) forces Kaladin to choose who to protect, and 2) forces him to grow some calluses and accept the limits on himself.

Kaladin has shown that he doesn't forgive himself easily, and that he has never really and truly accepted his own limitations. He takes on full shardbearers with nothing but a spear and a couple of throwing knives; without Syl's (unseen) influence he would surely have died. He tries to lead slave escapes in the middle of the most powerful country in the world, known for its militaristic prowess. Limits are not something Kaladin accepts easily.

I really think that accepting and forgiving will be key, central themes to his 4th ideal. Thoughts?

Edited April 14, 2019 by Matt Mills

[Karger]

I think that because the Windrunners are a martial organization with a strong belief in leadership that their ideals will reflect this development.  After the ideal of Radiance the first ideal that a Windrunner swears is among the first ideal that a soldier has to learn.  The ideal of being responsible for the safety of others especially those who depend on you.  The second unique ideal is similar.  Neither a soldier nor a leader can let their personal feelings get in the way of doing what is right.  Teft had to protect himself because others depend on him (and he depended on himself) and Kaladin could not let his personal animosity get in the way of his sworn duty.  Going along this line of reasoning the next lesson a leader will learn is delegation.  A leader cannot just take responsibility he must be willing to give responsibility to others and expect them to live up to it.  Kaladin has learned to take responsibility but we have yet to see him surrender any.  He keeps trying to do everything himself and he does not allow anyone else responsibility for what happens.  He blames himself for Kolinar despite their being nothing he personally could have done to stop the situation from going as it did and he could not swear the 4th ideal because he could not trust Dalinar to handle himself without being present to defend him.

[Firebolt-101]

On 11/15/2017 at 0:04 PM, Salkara said:

It'll probably come to a head when he next sees Moash/Vyre (a person he will want to save but can't).

I'm honestly so looking forward to when Kaladin and Moash get to meet again, especially since they're on opposite sides. I'm curious to know what Moash's reaction will be; will he be outraged and gladly fight Kaladin? Try to keep the friendship going? Or maybe he'll even try to recruit Kaladin. No matter which way it goes there's gonna be some big development on Kaladin's part.

[LordOfStorms]

Just did a reread. What about "I will keep hope alive, no matter the cost"? 

The moments in Oathbringer when Kaladin attracted windspren/approached 4th ideal was when he was looking forward. This would both address his battle with depression as well as his general failure to focus on the big picture. 

Quote

A windspren appeared near him, like a line of light. Then another. 

A single hope. 

The Words. Say the Words!

-page 1126 Oathbringer

In the scene, it is assumed the "single hope" was Kaladin reaching the 4th ideal. What if instead he was searching for the capacity to maintain hope? 

[Karger]

40 minutes ago, LordOfStorms said:

Just did a reread. What about "I will keep hope alive, no matter the cost"? 

The moments in Oathbringer when Kaladin attracted windspren/approached 4th ideal was when he was looking forward. This would both address his battle with depression as well as his general failure to focus on the big picture. 

How does that fit in with "shouldn't I want to help people?"

Edited August 26, 2019 by Karger

[That Violin Guy]

I will help people protect themselves, even if the one who needs protecting is me. 

[Vindo]

I really like the idea of the fourth ideal being about forgiveness. Windrunners and Skybreakers have a lot of similarities, but the differ on philosophy. So while Skybreakers are about following the law to an absolute and dealing out punishment. The Windrunners are about protection, even protecting those they hate. Often being able to protect someone that you hate involves some sort of forgiveness. So I think the fourth ideal will be something along the lines of "I will forgive others and myself". I feel that this helps with Kaladins character development, as he needs to learn how to forgive himself and others. It also reflects Teft's third ideal in part which is "I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most is... myself." Teft being another exmaple of having to forgive himself before he could progress to being a knights radiant.

 

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Vindo said:

I really like the idea of the fourth ideal being about forgiveness. Windrunners and Skybreakers have a lot of similarities, but the differ on philosophy. So while Skybreakers are about following the law to an absolute and dealing out punishment. The Windrunners are about protection, even protecting those they hate.

The ideal of absolute protection is flawed within itself. It would require you to protect enemies from each other, taking things to the logical conclusion you would have to fight yourself. The Skybreakers have the same issue. If you follow the law no matter what, the question arises, whose law? That is what the Skybreakers openly deal with. The Windrunners will have to face the issue, too.

7 hours ago, Vindo said:

Often being able to protect someone that you hate involves some sort of forgiveness.

THen it could have just said so in the third ideal and it has no connection to not wanting to protect some people.

[Kalaksbreath]

for me, the best sounding is "I can not protect everyone".

[Aon Tia]

7 hours ago, Kalaksbreath said:

for me, the best sounding is "I can not protect everyone".

Yes I think it has something to do with failure. That you can try to protect everyone but sometimes you may fail. 

Or as you put it 

I can not always protect everyone, some I may fail to protect. 

I believe this because every time kal is close to swearing his 4 the ideal he is thinking in his head, I failed tien, elhokar, or I have failed so many. Whenever in shadesmar he started thinking of failure, wind spren would start popping / shimmering around him and syl would say that you are close to swearing your 4th ideal. 

So it has something to do with failing.. and I guess it makes sense that it is most difficult for him to swear because failing and then accepting his failure is something that kaladin has struggled with since his childhood. Going back to his father saying you have to learn when to care and when to let go. accept that you can not save everyone 

Litin might actually help him finally learn this first lesson that he has trying to teach him since he is a child. 

And he is close. Because in OB, he had accepted that he had failed elhokar and bunch of other people, he had even accepted that he had failed tien but 

it was at the idea that he can fail dalinar is where he refused to accept. That is when he balked

[+Oltux72]

12 hours ago, Kalaksbreath said:

for me, the best sounding is "I can not protect everyone".

That would mean that the Windrunners suffer from delusions of omnipotence. It would turn an obvious fact into the fourth ideal.
And remember the recording: It is about wanting to protect. Not failing or giving up at impossible odds, outright wanting. And his breakdown started when he had to pick a side and couldn't.

[Aon Tia]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That would mean that the Windrunners suffer from delusions of omnipotence.

They should not have such delusions. That is an additional reason why honorspren would want that windrunners understand that they are not omnipotent and require this as their fourth ideal. 

not every windrunner is like Kaladin, he would never have such delusions but it might be a necessary lesson for many

Edited September 26, 2019 by The traveller

[NameIess]

I think that the 4th and 5th ideals will be something like: "I will accept my failures, and will not let them destroy me" and: "I will kill only when it is a choice between protecting innocents, or letting evil triumph" but I don't know what order they would be in, knowing when and who to kill would be needed against Moash/Vyre, but accepting failure looks like it's currently Kaladin's main issue.