[OB] Re-Shepnir's purpose

[BrightVoid he/him]

So during the fight with Re-Shepnir, Shallan notes that it is trying to learn as much as possible.  We first see it or a part of it studying Shallan while she puts on a play, even though we later learn that it is scared of her, and it even lets the bridgmen stay alive so it can figure out how to fight with a spear instead of killing them when it could.  So what is it doing studying murders committed in anger?  We see Re-Shepnir studying all sorts of activities, but it only mimics the murders.  Most people were disappointed with the perceived weakness of an unmade, but I see a lot of potential for it later on, as it continues to learn and adapt all of the killings it sees.  Thoughts?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Quote

"The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”

Way of Kings Chapter 18 Highprince if War

My guess is she wants her midnight essence to essentially act as physically real atium shadows, able to predict their copy's moves in battle and kill them.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, BrightVoid said:

So during the fight with Re-Shepnir, Shallan notes that it is trying to learn as much as possible.  We first see it or a part of it studying Shallan while she puts on a play, even though we later learn that it is scared of her, and it even lets the bridgmen stay alive so it can figure out how to fight with a spear instead of killing them when it could.  So what is it doing studying murders committed in anger?  We see Re-Shepnir studying all sorts of activities, but it only mimics the murders.  Most people were disappointed with the perceived weakness of an unmade, but I see a lot of potential for it later on, as it continues to learn and adapt all of the killings it sees.  Thoughts?

Well, the latest chapter lays it out quite well I think:

Quote

This thing was ancient. Created long ago as a splinter of the soul of something even more terrible, Re-Shephir had been ordered to sow chaos, spawning horrors to confuse and destroy men. Over time, slowly, she’d become increasingly intrigued by the things she murdered.

Her creations had come to imitate what she saw in the world, but lacking love or affection. Like stones come alive, content to be killed or to kill with no attachment or enjoyment. No emotions beyond an overpowering curiosity, and that ephemeral attraction to violence.

Almighty above… it’s like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong.

So basically, she is Pattern's twisted older sister but also quite dumb and violent.

[Storyspren]

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Well, the latest chapter lays it out quite well I think:

So basically, she is Pattern's twisted older sister but also quite dumb and violent.

I agree. She/it sounds like a lightweaver or one of their spren gone horribly wrong. And her name almost looks like "reshaper" which is so similar to transformer (the other lightweaver surge). Shallan 's unconscious drawings (if that really is what those new ones are) are not too dissimilar to the midnight essence that the "reshaper" puts out either. The only thing clear is that there is a deep connection between lightweavers and "reshaper."

 

Sorry for typos. Baby in one area. Sleeping.

Which reminds me, is there a "put baby to sleep" power in the cosmere? Because I think I don't want to be gold-gold twin born anymore if there is. Maybe duralamin fueled soothing?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

26 minutes ago, Storyspren said:

Which reminds me, is there a "put baby to sleep" power in the cosmere?

"Let me get this straight, you spent hours and hours researching and carving a soulstamp to do what exactly?"

"It makes it so the baby didn't sleep last night so it takes a nap right now."

*Stares*

"Best decision I ever made."

[Steeldancer he/him]

3 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

"Let me get this straight, you spent hours and hours researching and carving a soulstamp to do what exactly?"

"It makes it so the baby didn't sleep last night so it takes a nap right now."

*Stares*

"Best decision I ever made."

That's... brilliant. 

[The Invested Beard]

Re-Shephir's purpose is to somehow get into Shinovar and find a chicken so she can at long last complete her mission to tar and feather someone.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

54 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Re-Shephir's purpose is to somehow get into Shinovar and find a chicken so she can at long last complete her mission to tar and feather someone.

Midnight Pheasants

[Farnsworth]

Why "Midnight Mother" though? I can understand Midnight. At midnight, it's dark and hard to tell who is who. Re-Shephir imitates others, and it's hard to tell who she is. Why "Mother" though? Is it because she is the mother of new personas like Shallan is?

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Farnsworth said:

Why "Midnight Mother" though? I can understand Midnight. At midnight, it's dark and hard to tell who is who. Re-Shephir imitates others, and it's hard to tell who she is. Why "Mother" though? Is it because she is the mother of new personas like Shallan is?

She can create things from her essence. The shadow spear man for one. She gives birth to the Midnight Essence, which is a threat noted in Dalinar's visions. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

20 hours ago, Farnsworth said:

Why "Midnight Mother" though? I can understand Midnight. At midnight, it's dark and hard to tell who is who. Re-Shephir imitates others, and it's hard to tell who she is. Why "Mother" though? Is it because she is the mother of new personas like Shallan is?

 

Quote

“Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!”

—Dated Shashabev, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed dockworker in his forties, father of three.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 811). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

2

I'm guessing it's not a process you'd want to watch. 

[Storyspren]

23 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

"Let me get this straight, you spent hours and hours researching and carving a soulstamp to do what exactly?"

"It makes it so the baby didn't sleep last night so it takes a nap right now."

*Stares*

"Best decision I ever made."

You sir or madame, are a genius. 

Bravo!

[Varion he/him]

I'm still wondering about all those drawings Shallan discovered in her sketch books, with no memory of drawing them. I am assuming that some of these drawings were depictions of the shaft that led down to the chamber Re-Shephir was holed-up in, and the foreboding sense of darkness a hint towards Re-Shephir herself. But how was Shallan drawing them, and why could she no remember having drawn them? And what of the darkest, most violent images, like the flayed horse? Did those images come from Re-Shephir directly? And if so, was it deliberate or conscious by Re-Shephir? Or was Shallan just somehow tuning into Re-Shephir's thoughts without either of them being aware of what was happening? Did Renarin have any similar experiences?

It was well explained in the text that Shallan, as a Lightweaver, and Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, have some connection with Re-Shephir, probably related to the surge of illumination. We know that when Shallan made contact, Re-Shephir tried to bond with Shallan, attempting to break Pattern's nahel bond. And we know that both Renarin and Shallan felt the presence of Re-Shephir, when Dalinar, and presumably any surgebinders from other orders, could not. But those unexplained pictures suggest a deeper, subconscious connection that not only foreshadows complications when we meet Re-Shephir again, but may have implications for other Unmade and the radiant orders that associate with them. 

A couple of possibilities for Re-Shephir could be:

1. That Re-Shephir is unaware, and Shallan discovers that she can use these images to track her down;
2. That Re-Shephir is aware, or becomes aware of her ability to send images to Shallan, and thus uses them to manipulate and confuse her
   Spoiler

   (like Voldemort in the Order of the Phoenix when he sends Harry false visions to set up a trap);

    

Edited November 5, 2017 by Varion
Correcting spelling

[Naerin]

I think it is interesting that Re-Shephir doesn't seem to be particularly threatening at this junction. I mean, she caused what, a handful of deaths in all the time she was there? By definition, the people gathered at Urithiru themselves killed each other at an equal pace (and that's assuming she mirrored every single death or act of violence going on, which seems unlikely). An outbreak of a stomach bug would honestly be more frightening. 

But then we have her encounter with Shallan and friends, and Re-Shephir seems pretty formiddable. So why not just flood the tower with monsters before now? Without them reporting back to her it is unlikely Shallan would have discovered where the monsters were coming from nearly as quickly. At least not before some serious damage was done. It isn't even psychological warfare, since the vast majority of people don't even realize any weird is going on. So what gives?

It seems to me that either the Enemy is fairly incompetent, or Re-Shephir is acting without orders right now. Her actions strike me as confused and childish. She's trying to understand people in this twisted, violent way. But it doesn't seem particularly calculated. Maybe she is just learning so that she can be better at killing all humans (a worthy goal). But maybe there's more, and less, to it. Maybe she's just...changed.

"This thing was ancient. Created long ago as a splinter of the soul of something even more terrible, Re-Shephir had been ordered to sow chaos, spawning horrors to confuse and destroy men. Over time, slowly, she’d become increasingly intrigued by the things she murdered."

This doesn't sound like she has turned on Odium or anything like that, but it does seem like she has evolved to be a little more complex, more than just the tool of destruction she was made to be. Maybe I'm reading way too much into it but I think it would be interesting if it turns out the Enemy isn't this united, cohesive force, that the forces of Odium, including the Unmade, have changed over all this time as well, and might have forgotten or drifted away from their original purpose, just like humans. So maybe Re-Shephir is a threat, but not strictly speaking an opponent. More like a confused, rapid animal. Tragic and dangerous, but not necessarily evil, and maybe not fully working for Odium in any kind of strategic way any longer. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Naerin said:

It seems to me that either the Enemy is fairly incompetent, or Re-Shephir is acting without orders right now.

For the purpose of putting it in this discussion too, I'd say acting without orders. Shallan learns that she had been ordered to cause chaos. Not made to, but ordered to.

18 hours ago, Varion said:

I'm still wondering about all those drawings Shallan discovered in her sketch books, with no memory of drawing them. I am assuming that some of these drawings were depictions of the shaft that led down to the chamber Re-Shephir was holed-up in, and the foreboding sense of darkness a hint towards Re-Shephir herself. But how was Shallan drawing them, and why could she no remember having drawn them? And what of the darkest, most violent images, like the flayed horse? Did those images come from Re-Shephir directly?

As noted in the OP, Re-Shephir had a imitation studying Shallan while she put on her lightweaving play. I figured that perhaps she was expanding her imitations into other things, in order to learn. From there is was a quick leap in logic for me to assume that one of her imitations drew the images too. Watching the play could imply a fascination with Shallan...

I'm probably wrong, but it'd be an interesting plot point either way.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

1 hour ago, Naerin said:

I think it is interesting that Re-Shephir doesn't seem to be particularly threatening at this junction. I mean, she caused what, a handful of deaths in all the time she was there? By definition, the people gathered at Urithiru themselves killed each other at an equal pace (and that's assuming she mirrored every single death or act of violence going on, which seems unlikely). An outbreak of a stomach bug would honestly be more frightening. 

Arguably the risk of Re-Shephir isn't just the deaths that it causes directly, but the deaths that it causes indirectly. The monster takes a second life in the same fashion as the first, and as a result a second family or group of comrades is inspired to take revenge, which means another act of violence, which means another duplicate act of violence, and on and on it goes.

1 hour ago, Naerin said:

This doesn't sound like she has turned on Odium or anything like that, but it does seem like she has evolved to be a little more complex, more than just the tool of destruction she was made to be. Maybe I'm reading way too much into it but I think it would be interesting if it turns out the Enemy isn't this united, cohesive force, that the forces of Odium, including the Unmade, have changed over all this time as well, and might have forgotten or drifted away from their original purpose, just like humans. So maybe Re-Shephir is a threat, but not strictly speaking an opponent. More like a confused, rapid animal. Tragic and dangerous, but not necessarily evil, and maybe not fully working for Odium in any kind of strategic way any longer. 

I think there's something to this. It makes sense to me Odium's forces haven't been in fighting shape for the last few thousand years either, and that they will only grow stronger and more singular in purpose as the series progresses.

[Patrick Star]

 

[Naerin]

18 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Arguably the risk of Re-Shephir isn't just the deaths that it causes directly, but the deaths that it causes indirectly. The monster takes a second life in the same fashion as the first, and as a result a second family or group of comrades is inspired to take revenge, which means another act of violence, which means another duplicate act of violence, and on and on it goes.

Agreed, but it just doesn't seem as though it is all that calculated. That is a risk for sure...except that no one seems to be noticing. It took Shallan actively investigating to even realize something was odd. In fact, the additional murder actually had the opposite effect. Initially, no one even considered the possibility of a second killer. They assumed it was some kind of serial killer. And since IIRC the second murder was from among Sebarial's forces, the killer didn't even seem to be aligned to a particular political faction. If you think about it, without that additional, apparently random murder, Sadeas' death seems more like a political thing, and thus causes more tension between the various groups. 
So I agree that Re-Shephir could cause all kinds of problems like you describe. But she just...didn't. No panic, no revenge, no cycles of violence, nothing. So either she just totally sucks at her job, or she has some other more subtle purpose, or she's just acting independently out of curiosity, meaning the damage is largely incidental rather than some diabolic plan. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Naerin

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

1 hour ago, Naerin said:

So I agree that Re-Shephir could cause all kinds of problems like you describe. But she just...didn't.

It helps that Sebarial was pumping enough booze into Urithuru to make a horneater turn red.

[Naerin]

2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

It helps that Sebarial was pumping enough booze into Urithuru to make a horneater turn red.

Sebarial: Humankind's secret weapon against the machinations of the Unmade!

Also see:

"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems." - Homer Simpson

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

4 minutes ago, Naerin said:

Sebarial: Humankind's secret weapon against the machinations of the Unmade!

Truer words were never spoken.

Quote

Dalinar moved much more easily once in the saddle, and eventually found Roion’s army pouring southward toward Shallan’s plateau, in organized ranks. He allowed himself a sigh of relief at their orderly march; the majority of the army had already crossed to the southern plateau, only one away from Shallan’s round one. That was wonderful. He couldn’t remember where Captain Khal had been sent, but with Roion himself fallen, Dalinar had assumed he’d left this army in chaos

. “Dalinar!”a voice called. 

Heturned to find the utterly incongruous sight of Sebarial and his mistress sitting beneath a canopy, eating dried sellafruit off a plate held by an awkward-looking soldier.

Sebarial raised a cup of wine toward Dalinar. “Hope you don’t mind,”Sebarial said. “We liberated your stores. They were blowing past at the time, headed for certain doom.”

Dalinarstared at them. Palona even had a novel out and was reading. “You did this?” Dalinar asked, nodding toward Roion’s army.

“They were making a racket,”Sebarial said. “Wandering around, shouting at one another, weeping and wailing. Very poetic. Figured someone should get them moving. My army is already off on that other plateau. It’s getting rather cramped there, you realize.”

Palona flipped the page in her novel, barely paying attention.

WoR Chapter 86 Patterns of Light

 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

7 hours ago, Naerin said:

Agreed, but it just doesn't seem as though it is all that calculated. That is a risk for sure...except that no one seems to be noticing. It took Shallan actively investigating to even realize something was odd. In fact, the additional murder actually had the opposite effect. Initially, no one even considered the possibility of a second killer. They assumed it was some kind of serial killer. And since IIRC the second murder was from among Sebarial's forces, the killer didn't even seem to be aligned to a particular political faction. If you think about it, without that additional, apparently random murder, Sadeas' death seems more like a political thing, and thus causes more tension between the various groups.  

Yeah, I don't think that we're seeing Re-Shepnir at the height of her abilities. But at the same time I think that she did have this effect in a small fashion. The lowlifes that Shallan meets in the bar mention that they wouldn't have killed Ned just because he murdered his wife (real charmers, that group), but when he went after a barmaid then they had to kill him.

Quote

“We’d have let the watch take care of Ned, but he couldn’t leave it at killing just poor Rem.”

“He killed another person?”

Betha nodded. “One of the barmaids here. That we couldn’t let pass. We protect this place, you see. So Ur had to take a long walk with Ned.”

Now this didn't turn into a massive orgy of bloodletting, I agree. But I think the big issue is primarily that there was only one of Re-Shepnir's creatures wandering around making trouble. She's obviously capable of producing many more. Imagine if she sent out dozens, all at once?

[Naerin]

1 minute ago, Harry the Heir said:

Yeah, I don't think that we're seeing Re-Shepnir at the height of her abilities. But at the same time I think that she did have this effect in a small fashion. The lowlifes that Shallan meets in the bar mention that they wouldn't have killed Ned just because he murdered his wife (real charmers, that group), but when he went after a barmaid then they had to kill him.

Now this didn't turn into a massive orgy of bloodletting, I agree. But I think the big issue is primarily that there was only one of Re-Shepnir's creatures wandering around making trouble. She's obviously capable of producing many more. Imagine if she sent out dozens, all at once?

Those are some good points. I had forgotten about those charming gentlemen and their interesting take on moral thresholds. And I definitely agree that Re-Shepnir could be causing so much havoc with her abilities. That was kind of my point though. That she just isn't. And the stuff she is doing doesn't seem terribly subtle or strategic, but rather pretty random. I just think she's not really under orders right now, because she's acting less like an enemy agent of evil and more like a broken and lost (but still dangerous) creature.