[OB] Oathbringer chapters 28-30

[flying_shadow she/her]

15 hours ago, Asrael said:

my biggest fear is Brandon dying before I get to read all the books; I'm almost 20 years younger than him

Same here. I'm 25 years younger than him. In the best-case scenario, Brandon dies before us hopefully after all the books are done...

[bo.montier]

25 minutes ago, Kalinovsky said:

Same here. I'm 25 years younger than him. In the best-case scenario, Brandon dies before us hopefully after all the books are done...

Or, and I'm just saying this because this is how I discovered Brandon in the first place, maybe some young stud comes along and finishes it and becomes the next Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson/Young stud author...

But, stop thinking bad thoughts, he's fine!

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, bo.montier said:

Or, and I'm just saying this because this is how I discovered Brandon in the first place, maybe some young stud comes along and finishes it and becomes the next Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson/Young stud author...

But, stop thinking bad thoughts, he's fine!

And then that young author pulls off the mask and reveals that he actually is... brandon sanderson! He faked his death because, as a literary exercice, he wanted to try to write in the style of someone else trying to imitate him; he also wanted to see if his books would still be liked without the recognition of his name.

[Calderis he/him]

27 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

And then that young author pulls off the mask and reveals that he actually is... brandon sanderson! He faked his death because, as a literary exercice, he wanted to try to write in the style of someone else trying to imitate him; he also wanted to see if his books would still be liked without the recognition of his name.

Does Brandon have a Richard Bachman? 

[frozndevl]

On 11/1/2017 at 11:43 PM, Gigalemesh said:

As far as we are aware no, the Heralds didn't each have a spren, we are told that their bond was directly with Honour through the honourblades and he provided them their powers. Thinking about it though I'd say it's not impossible that their bonds with Honour took on a life of their own over time and became a special spren. I don't think that's the case personally but who knows. Also I'm no expert on all the WoBs and popular theories so I don't know either if this has been talked about before.

I like this idea, special spren became the unmade, except for one that is still in spren form. Totally not accurate, but fun.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 10/31/2017 at 8:49 AM, Kalinovsky said:

Today's epigraphs tell us that the author is considered a monster. Mr. T? Eshonai? Neither have been between realms, so that doesn't fit. Damnation, we better find out the author next week!

The epigraphs say that others call them a monster. Nobody knows what Taravangian is doing yet, so nobody's calling him a monster yet. Same for Eshonai(there were the Parshendi that escaped, but Eshonai doesn't know if they're still alive or what they are calling her)

Also, seeing the Stormfather pulls you into the CR a little bit(when Kaladin saw him in the Storm), so Eshonai has technically been between Realms. Taravangian is up for debate for what actually happened on the Day of Brilliance and the Day of Interpretation.

On 10/31/2017 at 9:13 AM, Wittiest man alive said:

Speaking of Re-Shephir weaving images with smoke that sounds a lot like it could be the patron of smokeform voidbringers. Do each of the forms of power have a corresponding unmade?

Depends on how many Forms of Power there are. Several of the Listener Songs have dozens of Stanzas, and having only nine of those stanzas be forms of power seems a little low to me.

On 10/31/2017 at 9:14 AM, ScavellTane said:

Midnight essence was 8th epoch, so eighth desolation. I'm curious why everybody automatically thinks midnight essence came from the midnight mother.

Because they are so similar. Midnight essence and the imitations created by Re-Shephir are both smoky forms, that "bleed" smoke and seem to deflate. Midnight Essence imitate things around them, which Re-Shephir's creations do as well. The correlations are pretty extensive when you actually did into them.

---

On 10/31/2017 at 8:53 AM, Stark said:

I think there is an Unmade for each Herald that broke under torture.  So this is Shallash's unmade?  If I'm right?

On 10/31/2017 at 9:12 AM, Steeldancer said:

It was when the first one broke, or perhaps when a new one broke. So each desolation got worse with a new Unmade.

The number of Unmade is Fixed. I don't know how that will mess with your idea Stark, but it should mess with yours quite a bit Steel.

Quote

Question

Is the number of the Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

---

On 10/31/2017 at 9:34 AM, notsawerd said:

I think that since the unmade was covering the gemstone pillar it wouldn't recharge during the highstorm.  Now that the unmade has moved on it should invest.  Remember they descended lots of stairs so this is located in the basement so to speak.  They lowered their spheres in order to charge them.

Don't think it being lower elevation is enough. There are still walls blocking the Investiture.

On 10/31/2017 at 9:44 AM, Argent said:

Chapter 29: No Backing Down

Quote

Radiant lowered her Shardblade, letting it slice into the rock at her feet. A hole. Like her drawing of spiraling blackness, a pit that seemed to descend into the void itself.

Futuresight? Perhaps Lightweaving has the inherent ability to see the future a little bit, and Renarin - for whatever reason - is simply better.

Quote

Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren… ten kinds of spren. One for each order?

Curses, woman, don't tell us about the two spren we've seen so much from! Tell us about the others!

For the first, I've been entertaining the thought that one of Re-Shephir's imitations drew it. Shallan didn't remember drawing it, and Re-Shephir is interested in imitation. One of the imitations sat in the audience of the play Shallan put on, which isn't simply imitating murder.

As for the second, Bondsmith Spren don't seem the type to have a "type" to draw, making me doubly curious about the tenth Spren image.

On 10/31/2017 at 9:59 AM, JPark317 said:

It may be a stretch, but has anyone considered Szeth as the writer of Oathbringer? Several of the quotes would fit his experiences ie confessing his murders, him being a heretic, hanging between realms when he was thought to be dead, etc.? 

I have. Others probably have too, but this thread shows that the bigger names are still more popular fan picks.

On 10/31/2017 at 10:10 AM, SLNC said:

Funny thing is, that she admits to have spoken the truth, that allows her to wield Pattern, but also rightfully says, that she hasn't overcome it yet. Hopefully, that realization will bring her to finally get over her fear of wielding Pattern - and cause her to drop Radiant, bringing her to see, that Radiant always was a part of what she is.

This is what scares me. She continues to follow a path of self-delusion. Yes, lying to yourself to make you stronger for a short while is acceptable, but in the end it is just a crutch. She finally needs acknowledge her past, her secrets... Still so many mental blocks...

Makes me wonder if Shallan is the "Mother of Lies" that the Chapter is named after. Following Sja-Anat being brought up in the "Taker of Secrets" chapter, I originally suspected the chapter was named after Re-Shephir. Now, however...

On 10/31/2017 at 10:17 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

Besides, Shallan has the ultimate plot armour - no Shallan, no sketchbook. If another gifted artist turns up, maybe we can start to worry though

I'm pretty sure Nazh has made a few drawings in addition to stealing some of Shallan's. There's also Navani's Notebook, just to pad some image-space.

---

On 10/31/2017 at 10:48 AM, Islington said:

I feel like everyone saying Taravangian is going to become any kind of Radiant is forgetting that "Journey before destination" is part of the First Ideal. How you do something is as important as what you do. Mr T ain't getting that blade and plate anytime soon. 

On 10/31/2017 at 11:06 AM, Stark said:

There is that.  But to me, at least, Taravangian seems to be an "Ends justify the means" kinda guy.  Which seems diametrically opposed to "Journey before Destination", which implies how you achieve your ends matters more than the ends themselves.

Taravangian, as he currently is, is the opposite of a Radiant.  He fails at the first ideal.

Both of you have been responded to on this subject quite a bit already, but nobody brought up another key point. The "how you do it is as important as what you do" is Teft's, and subsequently Kaladin's, interpretation of the First Oath. That is not the absolute interpretation of the Oath, not for every Order, nor even for every Windrunner. It is entirely possible to interpret the oath in a different way and still be eligible for Radiant-hood.

---

On 10/31/2017 at 1:31 PM, Fulminato said:

I think the most important question is "who free Re-Shephir from her cage?" and the everstorm i think is a weak answer

I felt that the mass stockpile of gemstones was powering Re-Shephir's prison, preventing her from getting out. Stormlight drains eventually, and even though gems in Urithiru seem to drain slower, the Recreance was at least 2200 years ago, with Re-Shephir's imprisonment either at that time or even earlier. It seems reasonable that as the gems finally emptied, she was able to roam more freely.

On 11/1/2017 at 4:34 AM, Ciridae said:

Re-Shephir instinctively tried to bond with Shallan, that's really cool and potentially really scary.

I agree that there is probably one unmade tangentially based on or in some way related to an order of the radiants, with the probable exception of the Bondsmiths. I'd hazard a guess that Yellig-nar, the Blightwind corresponds to the Windrunners, Moelach maybe to the Truthwatchers, as he seems to peek into past and future? Sja-anat corrupting spren, so Transformation? Elsecallers? Dai-gonarthis, the Black Fisher I have no idea, and Nergaoul, causing the Thrill could fit with Dustbringers or maybe Stonewardens. Perhaps Skybreakers, but I'd think one of the battle-orders.

Edit: About the depictions of Honor and Cultivation, perhaps it's neither, and the cloud represents the Stormfather, the tree-lady the Nightwatcher and the man with the blue disc is the third Bondsmith spren. 

Re-Shephir has curiosity and an interest in imitation. I wouldn't be surprised if that was not intentionally "trying to bond" so much as trying to learn/understand. Shallan noted her "prodding" at the bond with Pattern. Trying to rip it away isn't so different from taking something apart to learn how it works, after all.

I think the Unmade were around before the KR were, so I'm not a fan of them corresponding to the Orders. Corresponding to a Surge that an order primarily uses, maybe.

Happy to see I'm not the only one who thought that was the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.

---

On 11/1/2017 at 11:38 AM, Nymeros said:

Additionally, if the Sanderson timeline quote is correct, we only have 500 years to fit every Desolation prior to the prelude......which is crazy but hey.

On 11/1/2017 at 1:32 PM, Blacksmithki said:

The cosmere timeline is around 10K years by WoB, and I'm 99% sure another said that stormlight is around the middle, so 5000-4500=500

Stormlight Archives Prelude is 6K years after the Shattering.[2] That "middle" line isn't really worded all that clearly, thus leading to this debate.

On 11/2/2017 at 4:42 AM, Samaldin said:

About the numer of Desolations: We know it has been 6000ish years between the Shattering and the Breaking of the Oathpact. Odium needed some time to search, find an kill other Shards, so let´s say about 500-1000 years for that. Now we have 5500 to 5000 years for desolations. We know the 4500 years since the last Desolations was much longer then there ever was between Desolations and after a Desolation we (at least sometimes) are looking at 90% of humanity gone. Humanity needs some time to repopulate, or there would simply not be enough humans for the species to survive, if the Desolations come too soon after each other. Humanity also managed to get their technology level back up (i believe they managed stone-age to bronze-age sometimes?) after a Desolation. Taken together i would say we´re looking on average 500-1000 years between Desolations, possibly a bit lower. If my estimations are correct that would put the maximum number of Desolations about 11 and the minimum about 5. Of course Brandon could decide there was more time between the Shattering and the Breaking of the Oathpact so there could be more Desolations, but even with that we would be looking at maybe 15-20 Desolations maximum. If we assume that in the beginning the Heralds managed to hold on longer (because thousands of years of torture will probably slowly break your resolve) i don´think the notion of only 9 Desolations is unrealistic.

All Three of you can check out my first attempted timeline construction if you want.

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On 11/1/2017 at 5:46 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

But I don't know if I agree with your stance here. I don't know what Jesus opinion would be, but for me, intent weighs heavier than actions. I believe King Ts actions to be evil, but his intent to be good, and as such, I see him as more of a good person than an evil. 

Have a quote that what you're saying reminded me of:

Quote

I did my own dirty work. I faced what grandfather faced—but I did it for the galaxy, not for my own selfish love of a woman.
Motive mattered. Some philosophers said it didn't, but in the end motive was all there was to distinguish between good and evil.
   —Jacen Solo, Inner Thoughts

---

On 11/1/2017 at 8:54 PM, Firerust said:

Exactly. That's the Shard for you.

There's no need to overthink everything. But for some reason, we do it anyway.

Edit: Hey, @The One Who Connects, could this maybe be an option for the site's tagline/slogan?

There is a Thread for those, and anyone can post in there. The Link is also in my Sig, in case you are perusing elsewhere and find another good one.

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On 11/1/2017 at 9:33 PM, Solant said:

I don't know if this was mentioned yet, so forgive me if I am repeating someone else, but did the heralds have spren? I realize it wouldn't be required since the honor blades granted surges so spren wouldn't be needed. I was thinking the unmade could be the corrupted, or "unmade" spren of the heralds after they had been broken 1 by 1 at the beginning of each desolation. This would explain the theory of each unmade corresponding to an order of radiants.

As far as we know, the Heralds did not bond Spren at any point.

---

And then there was this:

Quote

Dalinar leaned forward. He thought he could see something larger within the ruby’s light. Something that moved like a fish in a bowl.

Roshar has Fishbowls then. Is this new information that stuck out, or have we already known this and I'm just forgetful?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 11/2/2017 at 9:36 PM, maxal said:

This is interesting. Could you elaborate? I am curious. I have no medical training, I just want to know what is said on the matter. I thought "lasting trauma" was the same as "PTSD".

PTSD has specific criteria. Shallan has some, but may not have all. Trauma = PTSD is actually a problematic correlation, since it can diminish those who are traumatized but do not experience the lasting neurological and emotional issues associated with PTSD. There is also a genetic factor involved. Not everyone who is traumatized has PTSD.

I know many people who have gone through lasting trauma (the Holocaust) and do not have PTSD. That is not to say that they were not traumatized. (My grandfather and his two sisters survived Auschwitz, and they were deported in 1937 from the Sudetenland, to give a general idea.) Did that trauma effect them throughout their lives? Of course it did! It still does, for the one great aunt (the other has advanced Alzheimer’s, and my grandfather passed away before I was born.) But it didn’t impair them the way PTSD does.

One great-aunt married right after the war and raised a beautiful family. The other came to the US, married and has many descendants today. My grandfather married off his sisters, then himself; he built a business in the US and raised a wonderful daughter. 

PTSD impaires functioning. It makes doing all the normal things of daily life hard, or even impossible. Trauma, in and of itself, does not.

PTSD is also not as widespread as people believe. Trauma=PTSD can also lead to false positives, or even make incidences more likely to occur in a reverse placebo effect.

Impaired functioning/difficulties in day to day life are a standard requirement for the diagnosis of a mental illness.

More information on PTSD can be found here:https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/PTSD-overview/dsm5_criteria_ptsd.asp

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

PTSD has specific criteria. Shallan has some, but may not have all. Trauma = PTSD is actually a problematic correlation, since it can diminish those who are traumatized but do not experience the lasting neurological and emotional issues associated with PTSD. There is also a genetic factor involved. Not everyone who is traumatized has PTSD.

I know many people who have gone through lasting trauma (the Holocaust) and do not have PTSD. That is not to say that they were not traumatized. (My grandfather and his two sisters survived Auschwitz, and they were deported in 1937 from the Sudetenland, to give a general idea.) Did that trauma effect them throughout their lives? Of course it did! It still does, for the one great aunt (the other has advanced Alzheimer’s, and my grandfather passed away before I was born.) But it didn’t impair them the way PTSD does.

One great-aunt married right after the war and raised a beautiful family. The other came to the US, married and has many descendants today. My grandfather married off his sisters, then himself; he built a business in the US and raised a wonderful daughter. 

PTSD impaires functioning. It makes doing all the normal things of daily life hard, or even impossible. Trauma, in and of itself, does not.

PTSD is also not as widespread as people believe. Trauma=PTSD can also lead to false positives, or even make incidences more likely to occur in a reverse placebo effect.

Impaired functioning/difficulties in day to day life are a standard requirement for the diagnosis of a mental illness.

More information on PTSD can be found here:https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/PTSD-overview/dsm5_criteria_ptsd.asp

This is really interesting. Thank you for your answer 

I have been reading the link you provided. Looking at it, Shallan mostly fails Criterion E and possibly Criterion D (which she has an inability to recall the key feature to the trauma, she does not readily check for any of the other requirements). Would you say she checks for Criterion C? Does Shallan have trauma related thoughts or feelings? Her trauma seems orchestrated around the idea she does not repressed everything about it. 

Would you say Kaladin has PTSD? It is generally admitted within the fandom he does, but he too does not readily qualify for Criterion E. I also do not consider he has difficulties with his day to day life.

I realized reading this many people, including myself, have used the term PTSD very loosely and have indeed equate it to trauma. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

@Maxal

I would be hesitant to say Kalladin has PTSD. He has depression, and there is over lap, so distinguishing between the two would probably take someone who is A: more experienced than I am and B: an actual meeting. I think he’s more likely than Shallan though. 

Shallan does fulfill criterion C, but that is more likely to be connected to her dissasociative amnesia, then as a sign of PTSD. Which is part of what makes diagnosing her complicated, as we have to differentiate between the two in the overlapping areas.

 

[Pattern he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I have been reading the link you provided. Looking at it, Shallan mostly fails Criterion E and possibly Criterion D (which she has an inability to recall the key feature to the trauma, she does not readily check for any of the other requirements). Would you say she checks for Criterion C? Does Shallan have trauma related thoughts or feelings? Her trauma seems orchestrated around the idea she does not repressed everything about it. 

Criterion D is fullfilled for Shallan. Inability to recall the key feature and overly negative thoughts and assumptions about oneself or the world (he hates herself as she admits to Pattern), also "Feeling isolated" at least has been a thing in past when she was still at her father's estates. Since it is not said whether the criteria have to be fulfilled simultaneously or a fulfilllment can also happen in a time sequence, the third one is questionable.
Criterion E is hard to judge. Risky behaviour we have seen plenty (Shallan becomes Veil and there we go). Heightened startle reactions we have seen when she was first talked to by Cryptics, though that could be counted as quite normal corresponding to the strange situation he was in there.
 

Shallan had all criteria fulfilled at some point in her life, though not simultaneously. The diagnosis whether that means PTSD for her, I leave for the specialists.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Would you say Kaladin has PTSD? It is generally admitted within the fandom he does, but he too does not readily qualify for Criterion E. I also do not consider he has difficulties with his day to day life.

For Kaladin it is even more tricky, since we have very scarce information about his behaviour after Tien's death. His exaggerated training with the spear could be associated with risky behaviour, irritability would not be out of character but be have too little information on that time to be sure. Thus Criterion E is somewhat blurry for Kaladin. He definitely had difficulties with his day to day life, but Tara helped somewhat there.

Criterion H also makes a diagnosis difficult, since Kaladin has at least seasonal depression. Negative affects and feelings could also be caused by this instead of the traumata (the betrayal by Amaram is a new event possibly triggering PTSD).

If he has had PTSD, Kaladin probably has overcome it by now, since he does not have problems with his day to day life anymore. We'll see more of this when Kaladin gets to know that Amaram has been named regent for princedom Sadeas and is back in the limelight again. I see new problems arise for him.

12 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shallan does fulfill criterion C, but that is more likely to be connected to her dissasociative amnesia, then as a sign of PTSD. Which is part of what makes diagnosing her complicated, as we have to differentiate between the two in the overlapping areas.

Would her disassociative amnesia not be a sign or result of PTSD, exactly criterion D, point one?

Edited November 5, 2017 by Pattern
typos

[ScavellTane]

On 11/5/2017 at 3:06 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Because they are so similar. Midnight essence and the imitations created by Re-Shephir are both smoky forms, that "bleed" smoke and seem to deflate. Midnight Essence imitate things around them, which Re-Shephir's creations do as well. The correlations are pretty extensive when you actually did into them.

 

Are we sure its smoke or is it "black stormlight"? 

[Morsk he/him]

"Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!"

essence so dark = Midnight Essence

Strange that someone would have this vision in Taravangian's hospital though. Was Re-Shephir there recently, before going to Urithiru? Or was the vision seeing the death of a second, different person, in a different place?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Morsk said:

Was Re-Shephir there recently, before going to Urithiru? Or was the vision seeing the death of a second, different person, in a different place?

Seeing the future(as a few Rattles have) involves peering into the SR. Distance doesn't matter in the SR, so they could be seeing Re-Shephir without her seeing them. Like a character on TV looking straight at the camera. They aren't actually looking at you, but in a dying haze compounded by fear and strange knowledge, you won't always know the difference.

It could also be metaphorical. Of particular note is that it's not the only Rattle to reference someone being there to see them die.

Quote

I'm dying, aren't I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.

— Collected on Jesanach 1172, 11 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a Reshi chull trainer. Sample is of particular note.^[11]

Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!

— Collected on Shashabev 1173, 8 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed dock-worker in his forties, father of three.^[25]

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!

— Collected on Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed female street juggler.^[34]

He watches! The Black piper in the night. He holds us in his palm... playing a tune that no man can hear!

— Observed circa 1172. Subject was Cenn, a member of Kaladin's squad in Brightlord Meridas Amaram's army.^[37]

The first is a Cryptic, which we know are monitoring important people/places. That was seeing into the CR, at something that's actually there. As for the other three... I really don't know. Two of them refer to holding, so I can imagine them actually being there, but I just can't say for sure.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

5 hours ago, Pattern said:

Criterion D is fullfilled for Shallan. Inability to recall the key feature and overly negative thoughts and assumptions about oneself or the world (he hates herself as she admits to Pattern), also "Feeling isolated" at least has been a thing in past when she was still at her father's estates. Since it is not said whether the criteria have to be fulfilled simultaneously or a fulfilllment can also happen in a time sequence, the third one is questionable.
Criterion E is hard to judge. Risky behaviour we have seen plenty (Shallan becomes Veil and there we go). Heightened startle reactions we have seen when she was first talked to by Cryptics, though that could be counted as quite normal corresponding to the strange situation he was in there.
 

Shallan had all criteria fulfilled at some point in her life, though not simultaneously. The diagnosis whether that means PTSD for her, I leave for the specialists.

For Kaladin it is even more tricky, since we have very scarce information about his behaviour after Tien's death. His exaggerated training with the spear could be associated with risky behaviour, irritability would not be out of character but be have too little information on that time to be sure. Thus Criterion E is somewhat blurry for Kaladin. He definitely had difficulties with his day to day life, but Tara helped somewhat there.

Criterion H also makes a diagnosis difficult, since Kaladin has at least seasonal depression. Negative affects and feelings could also be caused by this instead of the traumata (the betrayal by Amaram is a new event possibly triggering PTSD).

If he has had PTSD, Kaladin probably has overcome it by now, since he does not have problems with his day to day life anymore. We'll see more of this when Kaladin gets to know that Amaram has been named regent for princedom Sadeas and is back in the limelight again. I see new problems arise for him.

Would her disassociative amnesia not be a sign or result of PTSD, exactly criterion D, point one?

See, Dissasociative amnesia is its own illness, separate from PTSD. They can be co-morbid; I’d need to see if there have been any studies. So if the forgetting is due to DA and not PTSD then it does not fulfill the criteria. The symptoms cannot be caused by another illness.

Diagnosis requires ALL symptoms to be present at the time treatment is sought. So Shallan would have to present all the different symptoms during the same period of time due to PTSD, and not because of another illness or outside substance.

This is why diagnosis and treatment is tricky in cases of co-morbidity.

Kalladin’s excessive spear practice could be symptomatic of obsession with the particular event. It could also be a means of release and sublimation of his feelings. It could be a coping method. I would not call it reckless; the opposite actually. Provided it wasn’t obsessive I would probably encourage it. 

I don’t feel Kalladin has PTSD. I do think he is traumatized. I’m more iffy on Shallan; her DA makes diagnosis based solely on observation difficult. And I’m an art therapist, but I doubt the WOK/WOR/OB artist is considering how someone with DA would really draw.

As an aside, feeling lonely and isolated because you actually ARE lonely and isolated is NORMAL. Feeling lonely and isolated for extended periods when surrounded by friends and loved ones is abnormal.

Brief periods of loneliness is normal, but frequent bouts is not under most circumstances. It IS normal if you are female and are in pre or post partum. It may also occur during menopause. However this shouldn’t go on for too long.  See a therapist if it does. It is also normal when grieving or under great stress. Again, if these feelings continue for extended periods see a therapist.

Seriously, SA needs psychologists. Too bad Scadrial is just reaching the beginning of that field...

[Guest]

Since I have been involved in those psychology discussions, too, I have been thinking a bit about them... I think, and I include myself in that, that we are making it too easy for us, if we compare our mental illnesses and their classifications to the world of Roshar (or the Cosmere in general). I think Realmatic Theory and Investiture might play a part in how mental illnesses develop and manifest themselves in humans living on Roshar, especially in heavily Invested humans like Surgebinders.

I am hesitant to diagnose by using our own diagnostic manuals because of that. Though I think talking about symptoms and comparing them to our classification of mental illnesses is still in safe margins.

I do agree though that a measure of psychology would be helpful on Roshar... There does seem to be a lot of depressed and traumatised folk around.

[Pattern he/him]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

See, Dissasociative amnesia is its own illness, separate from PTSD. They can be co-morbid; I’d need to see if there have been any studies. So if the forgetting is due to DA and not PTSD then it does not fulfill the criteria. The symptoms cannot be caused by another illness.

Diagnosis requires ALL symptoms to be present at the time treatment is sought. So Shallan would have to present all the different symptoms during the same period of time due to PTSD, and not because of another illness or outside substance.

This is why diagnosis and treatment is tricky in cases of co-morbidity.

Thank you for your explanations. I am looking forward to the art in Oathbringer, perhaps you get some material to work on (I am thinking of a black spiralling vortex into the void or some weird images of horses...).
As @SLNC wrote, it might not be fitting to compare our own known mental illnesses to those in the cosmere, but it is a good basis for discussion and I find it very insightful. I like to learn interesting stuff, even if it is from discussing literature.

Since it is not possible for you to meet Kaladin or Shallan, I guess the only certain diagnosis can come from a WoB. Something I found in a quick search is here.

Spoiler

Interview: Sep 4th, 2014

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Verbatim)

Question

My background is twenty years of military, and as I've been reading your The Way of Kings, I've found that your insight into what it like to be a member of the service, all the mental trials including post-traumatic stress disorder is all very well thought-out and I'm curious how you came across that knowledge.

Brandon Sanderson

Lots of interviews and lots of reading on forums. People who post their hearts and souls on-- if you find the right forums, where people are among like-minded individuals, you can watch like a fly-on-the-wall and see what people are saying and how they are feeling. Because I strive for authenticity, that's what I-- whenever someone is feeling I want it to be authentic, and the more far removed from my own experience the better it is, if that makes sense to me, to get it into my books. So I try very hard for that.

Question

In fact I'm going to be suggesting to the Veterans' Administration to use the series for treatment for PTSD. There are literally some things in there I've never seen anyone actually understand or get before. Some of my military friends have just been in absolute tears after reading your book.

Brandon Sanderson

That is an honor to hear.

I guess, this is where the assumption that Kaladin has PTSD comes from.

I find it remarkable nonetheless that so many symptoms of real mental illnesses can be recognized in Brandon's books, so we have forthcoming specialists (or future specialists) to analyze this.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Pattern
Added link

[Gigalemesh he/him]

On 02/11/2017 at 7:11 PM, bo.montier said:

so If the moustache goes past the corner of the lips and hangs or flares it's moustaches! Common usage (speaking as a person with moustaches!)

Well it's not common usage for everyone clearly, it's definitely not a term at all where I'm from (South Africa), and I have read other books that talk about such a moustache without using the term moustaches, I do also have a moustache myself if that factors in. Anyway I appreciate the definition, I was thinking along those lines

[bo.montier]

On 11/3/2017 at 3:56 PM, king of nowhere said:

And then that young author pulls off the mask and reveals that he actually is... brandon sanderson! He faked his death because, as a literary exercice, he wanted to try to write in the style of someone else trying to imitate him; he also wanted to see if his books would still be liked without the recognition of his name.

I loled, take your up-vote sir, and well done.

[Stark he/him]

On 11/4/2017 at 3:06 PM, The One Who Connects said:

The number of Unmade is Fixed. I don't know how that will mess with your idea Stark, but it should mess with yours quite a bit Steel.

My only thoughts on this is that yes, they are fixed.  But when did they become fixed?  When Rayse took up the shard, he did not instantly have the unmade splintered from him.  So at some point, he had to break off the splinters, and we do not know if he broke them all off in one shot, or if he split them off one at a time.  All that we know is that they are currently fixed at 9, or at least were when Brandon gave that quote.  

 

But you are right, that does strike a pretty decent blow against the theory, but does not necessarily render it invalid outright.  Thanks for that info, it will help me construct better questions for if ever I get a chance to ask them.

[Steeldancer he/him]

I had seen that WoB before, but here's how I think about it. 

The unmade obviously haven't ALWAYS been around. And, what is it fixed to? And why is it fixed there? 

It would make sense that it would be "fixed" to the number of broken heralds, in my mind. Not a killer for the theory. It isn't great for it, but I think it would still work. 

Also, when is that "it's not 10" one from? 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Steeldancer

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I had seen that WoB before, but here's how I think about it. 

The unmade obviously haven't ALWAYS been around. And, what is it fixed to? And why is it fixed there? 

It would make sense that it would be "fixed" to the number of broken heralds, in my mind. Not a killer for the theory. It isn't great for it, but I think it would still work. 

Also, when is that "it's not 10" one from? 

March 22nd, 2014

[The One Who Connects he/him]

58 minutes ago, Stark said:

that does strike a pretty decent blow against the theory, but does not necessarily render it invalid outright.

I did say it would mess with it, rather than disprove it.

33 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Also, when is that "it's not 10" one from? 

In the spirit of being pedantic:

Quote

WoR Signing Report - Argent

Entries:  65
Date:  Mar 22nd, 2014
Type:  Verbatim
Location:  Chicago
TourCon:  Words of Radiance
Bookstore:  Barnes & Noble
Reporter:  Argent
Links:  17th Shard (Report)

---

And to the both of you, I realized later on that afternoon that the entry isn't as definitive as I first thought. Too many variables left uncertain. Have a short list of the things we don't know:

• Why it's fixed
• Who/What fixed it
• When it became fixed
• If it's permanently fixed
• If it being fixed is tied to something else being fixed
• etc..

[Stark he/him]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

And to the both of you, I realized later on that afternoon that the entry isn't as definitive as I first thought. Too many variables left uncertain. Have a short list of the things we don't know:

• Why it's fixed
• Who/What fixed it
• When it became fixed
• If it's permanently fixed
• If it being fixed is tied to something else being fixed
• etc..

This is exactly why I like debating theories here.  We are up front about what info we have, what we are missing, and what holes exist in our theories and proofs.  I am excited either way.  

 

Edit:  We argue the same way Shin haggle, by telling the buyer/reader everything that is wrong or incomplete with our theories, and exposing the areas lacking in value.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Stark
Analogy time:

[Steeldancer he/him]

Also, no I will not be trying to make the first thread tomorrow. My urge for conquest is satisfied. 

[Stark he/him]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

Also, no I will not be trying to make the first thread tomorrow. My urge for conquest is satisfied. 

I'm glad you did.  I had been kinda wanting to do that myself, but was not sure how much humor @Mestiv would have had at my usurping his power.  So I'm glad you took that leap, and even happier it was found to be amusing.