[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[The Invested Beard]

6 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

I ship it.

Oh you booger. lol

[Emerald101 he/him]

2 hours ago, treblkickd said:

Any argument in favor of enslavement would have to lean on an "ends justify the means" basis, which is quite literally the polar opposite of the thinking that is espoused by the first ideal. 

This certainly appears to be the case from the interpretations of those words that we've seen, but we have confirmation that a "Machiavellian" - the embodiment of an ends justifies means mentality - could join both the Skybreakers and the Elsecallers. My personal suspicion is that the first Ideal is just that - an ideal. Not an oath or something with any realmatic significance. 

Quote

ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

QUESTION

As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

(Source)

[StormingTexan he/him]

32 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Having these chapters release early has been a great thing, but if there's one downside for me it's the intensification of all the shipping nonsense. I mean come on guys I don't really see Brandon making this particular relationship (either way) a giant plot device. So trust he'll work it out in a way that is true to his characters and enjoy the ride.

Agreed but then we wouldn't have The Stormlight Bachelorette and be able to debate on who will get the rose. 

[Shardbearer he/him]

On the Shipping Debate:

I'm not taking a stance right now, but I'd like to point out that stories are made up of tropes. Either tropes are played out as expected, or they are turned around. And turning around a trope is a trope in itself.

When you boil any story down to it's basic elements, tropes are always present.

What makes a story interesting isn't whether there are tropes that play out or not, but how the author weaves together all the elements of plot, character, theme, location, etc. into a comprehensive whole that is believable and enjoyable. Brandon has earned my trust in his ability to weave all these together in a way that I find very satisfying, so I'm sure whichever direction he takes will be good, even if it doesn't align with my early hopes or beliefs.

On the Chapters:

Hmm, so the freeparsh have a spren. Is it a voidish or radiant spren? Not really sure at this point, but probably void if I were to guess...

Either way, I'm curious about why this  group is headed to Kholinar. If that's a radiant spren, why Kholinar? If it's voidish, what plans would the voidbringer have in bringing this ragtag group of freeparsh with no particular skills to the capitol?

Maybe the revolts in Kholinar are attracting more voidish spren that can bond with these parshmen...

[Fulminato he/him]

1 hour ago, Shardbearer said:

Either way, I'm curious about why this  group is headed to Kholinar. If that's a radiant spren, why Kholinar? If it's voidish, what plans would the voidbringer have in bringing this ragtag group of freeparsh with no particular skills to the capitol?

Maybe the revolts in Kholinar are attracting more voidish spren that can bond with these parshmen...

i think all the ex-parshmen of alethkar are heading to kholinar, that fifthy are the parshmen in the area near heartstone, ti is high probable in that rural zone the parshmen are rare (there are 'high quality' slave, so many will be in the zone of whealt), we know (from wor) a new form don't grant ability. the normal use of the parshmen is training in something tedious and repeitive and let they work on it all days, if you want win a battle with untrained unity against a better soldiers you need overhelming number, and waiting to attact only when the troop are gathered.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Fulminato

[What's a Seawolf?]

34 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Agreed but then we wouldn't have The Stormlight Bachelorette and be able to debate on who will get the rose. 

Lift will eat said rose before it is awarded, making the competition moot.

[Sparkrunner he/him]

How did pattern stay hidden before he came out for adolin? Shouldn't he stand out more?

 

[treblkickd he/him]

58 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

This certainly appears to be the case from the interpretations of those words that we've seen, but we have confirmation that a "Machiavellian" - the embodiment of an ends justifies means mentality - could join both the Skybreakers and the Elsecallers. My personal suspicion is that the first Ideal is just that - an ideal. Not an oath or something with any realmatic significance. 

(Source)

I hadn't seen those WoB, thanks for posting!

Firstly, the fact that a "Machiavellian" could potentially join either of the two orders does not logically imply that those two orders are universally Machiavellian, or that most of its members could not arrive at the conclusion that the KR as an institution had reached the point where they were undermining some fundamental moral imperative (such as coming to believe that enslaving an entire people is evil). That said, it's also interesting to point out that we believe one order "betrayed" the others at the Recreance, and that this actually fits quite well with the idea that most of the orders came to believe that they're very existence was undermining the ideals and morals that they hoped to advance, while some or part of one order (likely the Skybreakers?) secretly held back.

I also don't think it makes sense to go so far as to say the first ideal has no realmatic significance. I've always thought about the ideals/oaths as somewhat external/arbitrary constructs used to understand the Nahel bonding process. The simple fact that the form of the oaths can differ drastically from one order to another points to the fact that they are a construct used to try and systematize the bonding process (which we know predates the Knights Radiant, and therefore the form ladder of oaths/ideals). To my mind the oaths, therefore, all represent a somewhat artificial, or externally applied, levels of advancement in the Nahel bond, and the oaths are all about intent, i.e., people actively embracing ideals/oaths/truths that are in alignment with the cognitive nature of the spren that they're bonding. In that framework the first ideal is certainly a step in growing the Nahel bond. I don't remember offhand exactly what, if any, advances Kaladin begins to make once Teft tells him about the first ideal in tWoK, but I *do* remember that he spends several scenes actively contemplating what the words of the first ideal mean. If he was making strides in his ability to use/control his surgebinding shortly after he beings thinking about the first ideal, then that would pretty definitively argue for it haven't realmatic significance.

 

 

[Hischier]

On September 27, 2017 at 3:18 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm not sure why everyone is convinced the promise not to screw up is horrible foreshadowing. Many (myself included) think Brandon writing another arranged marriage which works out perfectly is unlikely. But another angle to look at, is that this is simply an idea Brandon believes about life and wants to make clear: any relationship in which both parties try and invest time will work out. The eventual buildup also feels a lot more natural than the usual love-at-first-sight-for no-good-reason trope. 

 

1. Because of the context it's in. It's at the very end of the chapter at the beginning of a book and you have the Shallan promising something she has no control over (when a parent in a movie promises their kid that everything's going to be ok, it never ends up being ok). Either that's a huge misdirect or it's obvious foreshadowing and given that Brandon has set up a love triangle, it'd feel like a lot of work to not at least temporarily have a falling out between them. 

2. To be fair, when they first meet they do spend a good amount of time admiring each other's hair.  

Edited September 28, 2017 by Hischier

[Emerald101 he/him]

I wasn't attempting to imply that those orders were majority Machiavellian, or even significantly so. I was responding specifically to what I quoted you as saying. 

I really do not see the other oaths as being an artificial construct. If they were simply a formulated method of embracing the truespren, than why does the stormfather care so much about oaths? Why do the words just naturally pop into a Radiant's head? Why does Nale refer to "the greater power of oaths"? It seems pretty clear to me that the oaths are the result of Honor's influence. The diversity of the oaths form from order to order IMO reflects, to a certain degree, how cultivation/honor composed those spren are. 

The first Ideal appears different though. It's based off of the in-world WoK, instead of coming from the spren. The Radiants have to be told what it is instead of it instinctively coming to them. The other oaths are phrased as an "I will" statement,while the first Ideal is far more vague and philosophical. They just don't line up. 

I don't remember if any significant gains are made by Kaladin after thinking about the first Ideal, but even if that did happen we can't be sure that the first Ideal caused it. Kaladin had just became aware of what he was, and any progress can easily be contributed to that fact.

[Canucck]

1 hour ago, Roadwalker said:

How did pattern stay hidden before he came out for adolin? Shouldn't he stand out more?

 

He's supposed to be very hard to notice unless you know what to look for. Like when Pattern went into the arena during the duel, Shallan remarks how painfully obvious he is to her, yet no one else in the crowd notices him moving.  

He also sits in spots where his pattern could belong, like on her dress. The walls of Urithiru are already covered in patterns too, so he'd be very hard to notice there.

[Logman]

2 hours ago, Canucck said:

He's supposed to be very hard to notice unless you know what to look for. Like when Pattern went into the arena during the duel, Shallan remarks how painfully obvious he is to her, yet no one else in the crowd notices him moving.  

He also sits in spots where his pattern could belong, like on her dress. The walls of Urithiru are already covered in patterns too, so he'd be very hard to notice there.

I also think that spren can remain hidden if they want to be. If I recall correctly in WoK, Syl wasn't visible to most of bridge 4 until she chose to be seen.

[IntentAwesome]

Just to add more fuel to the fire on the ship wars.  But we saw that Dalinar just had to step down from his position as Highprince of Kholinar to be a leader of the Knights Radiant, otherwise he is not an impartial leader for a world organization of some very powerful people. Will that hold true for all of the radiants? If Shallan and Adolin married, can Shallan be the...highlady?... of Kholinar as a radiant?

This, to me, seems like a feasible reason that Adolin and Shallan may have to break things off, even though they seem to get on well.

[muco]

Adolin & Shallan chapters were nice.

Goes to show how these two people view the importance of their relationship.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

10 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

Just to add more fuel to the fire on the ship wars.  But we saw that Dalinar just had to step down from his position as Highprince of Kholinar to be a leader of the Knights Radiant, otherwise he is not an impartial leader for a world organization of some very powerful people. Will that hold true for all of the radiants? If Shallan and Adolin married, can Shallan be the...highlady?... of Kholinar as a radiant?

This, to me, seems like a feasible reason that Adolin and Shallan may have to break things off, even though they seem to get on well.

I really don't see this this as being necessary. I also really don't see Adolin or Shallan accepting that.

[Dreamstorm]

34 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

Just to add more fuel to the fire on the ship wars.  But we saw that Dalinar just had to step down from his position as Highprince of Kholinar to be a leader of the Knights Radiant, otherwise he is not an impartial leader for a world organization of some very powerful people. Will that hold true for all of the radiants? If Shallan and Adolin married, can Shallan be the...highlady?... of Kholinar as a radiant?

This, to me, seems like a feasible reason that Adolin and Shallan may have to break things off, even though they seem to get on well.

Oh man, I dread doing this too, but.... one of my thoughts about the potential importance of May Aladar is that Adolin will be "influenced" to marry her in order to tie the Kholin princedom tighter to the Aladar princedom.  Or that Adolin will become close to her in investigating his murder/confessing it to her and thus progress into a relationship with her that will be politically "encouraged".  (Please don't eviscerate me!)

[vividox]

On 9/27/2017 at 2:43 PM, Harbour said:

Reading Adolin/Sallan scenes i still sense some artificiality in them. In the way Shallan think about Adolin, the way they talk to each other. There is pure joy to read well crafted banter, they share but below the surface there is lack of something that make me feel they love each other. Im sure its Brandon's intention, not just mine random nitpicking.

Maybe its a lack of emotional connection between them. Brandon didn't make their conversation in 13 and 15 chapter any different from their conversations in WoR. Shallan still "melt looking at Adolin's eyes" and think that "it okay that Adolin is who he is". 

But like someone above said, they've known each other for like two months and haven't exactly had a lot of time to work on their relationship, what with the Everstorm and Radiants coming back and everything. Perhaps the reason you don't feel like they love each other is because they don't, they are still very much in the infatuation stage and love isn't even on the radar yet. 

[Canucck]

1 hour ago, Logman said:

I also think that spren can remain hidden if they want to be. If I recall correctly in WoK, Syl wasn't visible to most of bridge 4 until she chose to be seen.

It depends on the spren. Pattern cannot hide himself completely like Syl or Ivory. One of Syl/Pattern/Jasnah mentioned that specifically, I can't remember which though.

Wyndle is kind of an in-between. He can mostly hide himself from people, but his "dead vines" that look like ash show up for everyone.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Canucck

[IntentAwesome]

15 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Oh man, I dread doing this too, but.... one of my thoughts about the potential importance of May Aladar is that Adolin will be "influenced" to marry her in order to tie the Kholin princedom tighter to the Aladar princedom.  Or that Adolin will become close to her in investigating his murder/confessing it to her and thus progress into a relationship with her that will be politically "encouraged".  (Please don't eviscerate me!)

I had wondered the same about May. It does make more sense politically now, I think. But it seems odd that even though her name has been mentioned every other paragraph, we still haven't seen her in person, if she is going to become an important player.

[vividox]

Here's my take on Kaladin / Shallan / Adolin: it's going to be messy. A lot of people are painting their preferred couple in a very Disney light, and I just don't see that happening. All three are very flawed characters, and I think there are going to be some mistakes, some drama, and some hurt feelings along the way. Sanderson is pretty good with relationships, and Marasi / Wax / Steris was a great example of how he's willing to let romantic situations evolve instead of just "happily ever after" them at the end of the first book. There is a lot of Stormlight left, and a lot of time for Shallan to become enamored with one, surprised by the other, make a stupid decision, piss them both off, create drama, and add an extra layer of uncertainty to everything else that is going on. 

[Kersplattle]

Just wanted to add that I don’t think that Jasnah et al actually want to kill all of the Parshmen, they want to kill the voidbringers. That they believe that Parshmen = voidbringers appears now to be a mistake, Parshmen may become voidbringers, but aren’t automatically so.

Recall too that the Parshendi are effectively Parshmen + spren, so there is a reason for the KR spren to be involved in the Recreance as well, that is, to participate in it.

This is just a fairly casual theory, just that I have often wondered what could be a sufficiently dreadful secret to cause the Recreance, some sort of absolute betrayal seems needed, and maybe wholesale slavery of a people fits that bill. But who knows what the in-world ethics of this are. In a novel, in-world ethics does not have to equal real world ethics. As we appear to understand it, the Alethi are a very warlike people, yet they are, in world, expected to be that way as they are the fighting vanguard needed to regain their former place of habitation. As I see it, there is no shame or negative ethical attribution to the war-like nature of the Alethi, their world puts that burden on them.

[StormingTexan he/him]

44 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Oh man, I dread doing this too, but.... one of my thoughts about the potential importance of May Aladar is that Adolin will be "influenced" to marry her in order to tie the Kholin princedom tighter to the Aladar princedom.  Or that Adolin will become close to her in investigating his murder/confessing it to her and thus progress into a relationship with her that will be politically "encouraged".  (Please don't eviscerate me!)

Oh boy... MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY!!! 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

1 hour ago, IntentAwesome said:

Just to add more fuel to the fire on the ship wars.  But we saw that Dalinar just had to step down from his position as Highprince of Kholinar to be a leader of the Knights Radiant, otherwise he is not an impartial leader for a world organization of some very powerful people. Will that hold true for all of the radiants? If Shallan and Adolin married, can Shallan be the...highlady?... of Kholinar as a radiant?

This, to me, seems like a feasible reason that Adolin and Shallan may have to break things off, even though they seem to get on well.

I suspect this will be the case only for absolute leaders of radiants. Dalinar is setting himself up as an ultimate rosharan leader, so he can't be a leader of a small princedom in a corner of the world. Shallan is not planning on becoming queen of Roshar anytime soon, so she will probably be fine. If every radiant has to renounce their titles it would defeat the purpose of the first wave spren picking influential people to bond.

[Darvys]

@Kersplattle We know so little about the recreance, my brain always balks at the prospect of speculating about it, but still, nothing better to do with the little we got this week. I'll get nowhere with this, but oh well ...

It's already hard enough to try to justify it as a group action, but if we take the knights individualy, what could possibly push someone like Kaladin to not only turn his back on humanity, but on Syl, knowing it would kill her ? i can't imagine it's something others have done or are doing, that's why i always entertained the idea of a betrayal by the spren. The stormfather's unwillingness to speak of it and Taravangian's belief that the same secret could destroy the orders again doesn't help, why would the current radiants care what happened millenia ago ? unless the same lies or whatever are still being perpetuated. I'm always thrown back to Kaladin's exchange with Syl back in WoK, about how a parshendi bonded to an honorspren would have been compelled to fight against him, it really shows, to me, how the knights can be chained to fight for a questionable cause, imposed by the side of the conflict they happen to fall in. Convenient then that parshendi can't be bonded for no apparent reason, despite their becoming closest to Honor from what we've seen. Right now I'm really curious about how this all started, more than i am about how it will end. Odium's champ can go to hell, give me a prequel please, i'm dying.

Bah, i'm just rambling, i don't know what to make of any of this, just go back to bashing each other about your favorite love stories, i'm growing sick of all the pairings before they even had a chance to happen.

[hypatia she/her]

@Darvys

The Aimian on the Back Cover seem to be the same opinion as Taravangian

"For those secrets will crush him (the King/Dalinar?)  as they did the Knights who came before" (cum grano salis)

Secrets that will crush Dalinar - now this can't be the death of Honor or the lie with the Last Desolation - both does he know and I don't see him crushed.

Perhaps the other way round - what is Dalinar planning to do what the Radiants of old also have done?

Edited September 28, 2017 by hypatia