[OB] Oathbringer chapters 13-15

[Darvys]

Is there any WoB or accepted theory about how a lightweaver can break his oaths ? Supress the same truths he gave his spren or just dig himself deeper in denial of some unrelated matter ?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

4 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Is there any WoB or accepted theory about how a lightweaver can break his oaths ? Supress the same truths he gave his spren or just dig himself deeper in denial of some unrelated matter ?

I'm wondering if it is by becoming overwhelmed by the truths they speak and rejecting their spren. Shallan could (probably won't though) end up hating Pattern for what he is making her face. A Lightweaver who breaks their oaths is probably someone who breaks because they cannot handle the truth.

Also, to your question, I do not know of a WoB or theory on this. Sorry.

[Fulminato he/him]

the end of the kaladin chapter is a copy of the end of the his first chapter. don't think the similitude is unintentional

[Starla]

This week's chapter reminds me of the Oathbringer description on Amazon: "Kaladin Stormblessed must come to grips with the fact that the newly kindled anger of the parshmen may be wholly justified."

I think Kaladin will use his opportunity as a "prisoner" to talk to the parshmen and gain an understanding of their situation. He will probably empathize with them as freed slaves. I agree that he may not be the best long-term leader for the freed parshmen, but I believe he will want to protect them and serve as an advocate to humans and other radiants who may not be as sympathetic. I am concerned most humans will want to mass-slaughter all the parshmen, even in their non-violent forms, because they could potentially become voidbringers in the future. Hopefully Kaladin can work in unison with a Listener leader like Rlain or Eshonai to prevent this from happening. It might be the only way to prevent the entire race of parshmen from turning on humans and voluntarily taking stormform. They could be allies with humans if this can be prevented.

[hypatia she/her]

I have a serious problem with the Radiant.

Whereas Veil or any other persona  Shallan impersonates don't have altered the Shallan within, the Radiant is seen as a real person apart from herself.

It is a new lie, a way to go back instead of working with the trauma.

It's understandable - for the first truths Patern was a neutral 'psychoanalyst', but within the memory of killing her mother, Pattern is a part of the memory itself.

She will need someone else to speak with, someone , who is able to understand.

[yulerule]

Regarding breaking the oaths - on the one hand, it seems that every order would need to do it differently because of the different Oaths, but on the other, during the Recreance they broke their oaths all at once and all in the same way. And it seemed too simple - like breaking a deadsprenblade bond. 

[Elena she/her]

7 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Regarding breaking the oaths - on the one hand, it seems that every order would need to do it differently because of the different Oaths, but on the other, during the Recreance they broke their oaths all at once and all in the same way. And it seemed too simple - like breaking a deadsprenblade bond. 

I've always thought their all walking away meant they were all rejecting the Nahel bond and their role as Radiants. Maybe there are unintentional ways to break the bond that depend on the specific oaths, as well as a simpler 'I'm out of here' reaction where they breaking their oaths is a consequence of rejecting everything that makes them Radiants.

[+robardin he/him]

20 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I'm wondering if it is by becoming overwhelmed by the truths they speak and rejecting their spren. Shallan could (probably won't though) end up hating Pattern for what he is making her face. A Lightweaver who breaks their oaths is probably someone who breaks because they cannot handle the truth.

Also, to your question, I do not know of a WoB or theory on this. Sorry.

Shallan, like Kaladin, has broken her bond in the past and re-formed it. She must have been advanced enough in the Nahel bond as a child to be able to summon Pattern as a Shardblade in self-defense against her mother, and then repressed/forgotten it all. Based on her flashbacks, it seems the way to break her "truth oaths" is to repress or deny the truth about herself; and based on the chapters we just read, speaking a painful truth to advance the bond means she can no longer repress it.

It's scary to think what is left for Shallan to "truth" to herself for the next Ideal. Maybe something about her ambiguous attraction to Kaladolin?

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, hypatia said:

I have a serious problem with the Radiant.

Whereas Veil or any other persona  Shallan impersonates don't have altered the Shallan within, the Radiant is seen as a real person apart from herself.

It is a new lie, a way to go back instead of working with the trauma.

This isn't true anymore. Veil was originally just a mask, but the beginning of ch. 13 shows her fleshing Veil out more, and veil is very much a different person from Shallan now. As Veil, Shallan would not have reacted to Adolin's entrance in the way she did. 

She is beginning to see the masks as separate people. It's not just Brightness Radiant. It's Veil too. 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

She must have been advanced enough in the Nahel bond as a child to be able to summon Pattern as a Shardblade in self-defense against her mother, and then repressed/forgotten it all.

 

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

speaking a painful truth to advance the bond means she can no longer repress it.

These two quotes seem a bit contradictory to me. To advance far enough to summon her Shardblade (third oath generally I think) means she would have needed two truths (the generic oath plus two more). Those truths, according to the second quote, are irrepressible. 

Or, am I misunderstanding you and you mean she can no longer repress those truths without risking her bond?

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

Okay, who else wants to see Syl and Pattern teach a sex ed class?

[Calderis he/him]

There's more to the bond breaking then simply repressing those truths. 

Shallan never broke her Oaths with Pattern previously, it just degraded, and she's still repressing most of her childhood. 

[yulerule]

Shallan didn't break her Oaths - Pattern didn't die and she could still summon Patternblade.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Shallan never broke her Oaths with Pattern previously, it just degraded

I thought (emphasis on thought haha) that Shallan had to respeak Oaths before being able to summon Pattern again. Is that incorrect? If she did need to respeak Oaths before being able to summon Pattern then I think that might mean her Oaths were, to some extent, broken. Pattern lost a lot of his cognitive abilities - much like Syl did when Kaladin broke his Oaths.

[dendrophobe he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

I thought (emphasis on thought haha) that Shallan had to respeak Oaths before being able to summon Pattern again. Is that incorrect? If she did need to respeak Oaths before being able to summon Pattern then I think that might mean her Oaths were, to some extent, broken. Pattern lost a lot of his cognitive abilities - much like Syl did when Kaladin broke his Oaths.

She almost summoned him a few times, or at least thought about it, before speaking that truth. I think that must have been her fourth (third unique), leaving her one step ahead of Kaladin at the end of WoR.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I thought (emphasis on thought haha) that Shallan had to respeak Oaths before being able to summon Pattern again. Is that incorrect? If she did need to respeak Oaths before being able to summon Pattern then I think that might mean her Oaths were, to some extent, broken. Pattern lost a lot of his cognitive abilities - much like Syl did when Kaladin broke his Oaths.

She did, because the bond degraded. That's my whole point. 

Her Oaths were never broken though. She'd progressed far enough that pattern was a blade. If that had happened, Pattern would have been trapped as a Shardblade, and there would be no slow buildup to her Oaths being restored, it would have been like Kaladin speaking the third oath. All or nothing. 

Edit: @dendrophobe there is a WoB that says your right. She's one level above Kaladin and (presumably) the most advanced Radiant we know. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Calderis

[Steve-son-son-Charles]

I am starting to believe that the author of “Oathbringer” is Oathbringer itself, or more appropriately, the spren that is Oathbringer.

[dendrophobe he/him]

Just now, Steve-son-son-Charles said:

I am starting to believe that the author of “Oathbringer” is Oathbringer itself, or more appropriately, the spren that is Oathbringer.

Interesting idea. I can't agree though.

The author points refers to Shadesmar as "the realm of the spren". Also he/she speaks of a childhood. I don't think I've ever seen a spren life cycle that would refer to a childhood - perhaps "when I was young" but not "childhood."

[Nymeros]

6 hours ago, dendrophobe said:

OK, so which is worse... A Parshendi like Eshonai coming and leading the freed Parshmen, which is OK just because of race. Or a freed slave returning to help lead an entire people out of slavery. I know which one hits me in the feels. Race shouldn't be the factor that makes a hero - IMO, it shouldn't matter at all. Shared experience and empathy, now...

Kaladin is worse in my opinion. The heck does he know of the Parshendi/Listeners and their culture to become leader of their entire race? He can help them of course but saying he's fit to lead the race because he was a slave for 9 whole months? My word.

You know who the best choice is? Tom Cruise. He can be The Last Parshendi

Spoiler

Yes, I'm joking about Tom. 

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Oh, I get that the white savior must have been done a lot with racist connotations, but it's actually the most realistic lead: the downtrodden people doens't have skillls of leadership, or technology, or magic, because nobody taught them, which is part of what kept them downtrodden. It makes sense that they will find very helpful soomeone who knows those stuff and can teach them.

I'm sure theyll make use of Kaladins skills and i'm sure a cool guy like Kaladin will sympathize and want to do everything he can to help.

Seriously, did the peeps who replied to me actually read the message I was replying to or did the term 'white savior' just trigger a certain group?

4 hours ago, Darvys said:

Is there any WoB or accepted theory about how a lightweaver can break his oaths ? Supress the same truths he gave his spren or just dig himself deeper in denial of some unrelated matter ?

I'm sure it's being in a state of denial or being unwilling to accept their own truths. Hopefully we have more failed Radiants down the road.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Nymeros

[Elena she/her]

I know it's been said already, but this Brightness Radiant thing is potentially scary as hell. The implications  (for Shallan and her mental health) are... not nice.

She basically created a whole new personality for herself to be her 'public' face, which means she's going to use it more and more. Brightnes Radiant is how the public sees her, so it's what she will be when she walks around the city. Brightness Radiant was inspired by Jasnah, so it's who will be in attendance when Shallan needs to fill Jasnah's place in meetings with Dalinar. Brightness Radian is not scared to handle her Blade, so it's who Shallan will become every time Adolin suggests they practice - which looks like it will happen quite a lot, as Adolin doesn't think anything is wrong and enjoys doing something he likes with Shallan. But the more I think about all the ways Shallan will find to use her new fearless Radiant persona, the scarier it sounds for the Shallan underneath.

 

[+robardin he/him]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She did, because the bond degraded. That's my whole point. 

Her Oaths were never broken though. She'd progressed far enough that pattern was a blade. If that had happened, Pattern would have been trapped as a Shardblade, and there would be no slow buildup to her Oaths being restored, it would have been like Kaladin speaking the third oath. All or nothing. 

This... Seems true. so it's possible (at least for Lightweavers) to "repress" or "degrade" a bond (weakening the spren's attachment to the Physical Realm) rather than breaking it (killing the spren and, if advanced enough, trapping it as a Shardblade).

[Jack33210]

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Card-playing form?

Magic-form

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I am not sure if the new parshmen non-voidbringers will necesarily copy the parshendi. The impression I got so far is:

1. Listeners were in Roshar
2. Humans and Shards arrived
3. Odium appropriated the Listeners/the Listeners went to Odium for power
4. Rebel group or more strong willed among the Listeners splintered away to embrace dullform and became Parshendi
5. Humans forced slaveform upon all the remaining Listeners, they became Parshmen

Considering the time that has passed, and that the Parshendi basically abandoned the Parshmen I'm unsure if there will really be two sides of conflict here (humans, parshendi and parshmen) or two (humans and voidbringers) with parshendi going to either side.

[Daishi5]

Just now, WhiteLeeopard said:

I am not sure if the new parshmen non-voidbringers will necesarily copy the parshendi. The impression I got so far is:

1. Listeners were in Roshar
2. Humans and Shards arrived
3. Odium appropriated the Listeners/the Listeners went to Odium for power
4. Rebel group or more strong willed among the Listeners splintered away to embrace dullform and became Parshendi
5. Humans forced slaveform upon all the remaining Listeners, they became Parshmen

Considering the time that has passed, and that the Parshendi basically abandoned the Parshmen I'm unsure if there will really be two sides of conflict here (humans, parshendi and parshmen) or two (humans and voidbringers) with parshendi going to either side.

Somewhere in there, the Parshmen felt betrayed when Spren bonded with humans.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Just now, Daishi5 said:

Somewhere in there, the Parshmen felt betrayed when Spren bonded with humans.

Yes, I considered putting that between 2 and 3, but decided to leave spren out as its a very rough timeline.