[OB] Unmade and Bondsmiths

ChazBolt · August 30, 2017

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Um, the Stormfather predates Honor. He's connected just like Nightwatcher is associated with Cultivation. They aren't literal splinters solely of the Shards.

The Stormfather is the literal source of stormlight on Roshar. He was an Adonalsium spren for certain.

Ehhh, do you have a source for the Stormfather predating Honor or being a spren of Adonalsium?

From what the Stormfather has said, he is a creation of man from the memory of the Almightly (re: Honor). And by your logic, the Stormfather is to Honor what the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation.

frozndevl · August 30, 2017

If we are to assume that the super spren ("SS") originate pre-shattering, that gives us the two that eventually become the Nightwatcher and Stormfather, and the ten that were the Dawnsingers (yes I know this isn't confirmed). After the shattering, Cultivation and Honor do their thing and "adopt" the Nightwatcher and Stormfather, leaving the ten Dawnsingers alone since they are kind of a unit for lack of a better term. Odium comes along then, sees the remaining ten and thinks boom, I can "adopt" them too, but is limited because he gets stuck on Braize, meaning he can only "adopt" nine of the ten Dawnsingers. This leaves the 10th Dawnsinger, as of yet unaffiliated with a new Shard, to be bonded as the 3rd Bondsmith Spren. I could further think that perhaps the adoption of #10 was partially succesfful, but limited because of the cosmic importance of Braize and the #9, so does gain the "power" of being adopted by a new Shard and is on level with the Nightwatcher and Stormfather.

Calderis · August 30, 2017

I can't dig for WoBs at the moment but I will when I get home. Yes the Stormfather predates the Shards for sure. He is the source of stormlight and since the Rosharan ecosystem relies on Stormlight for all of the inate spren bonds its almost certain he predates the shattering as Adonalsium was heavily involved in Roshar's creation.

After Honor died his Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather, but he was a Bondsmith spren prior to that.

Edit: @ChazBolt first my assertion that the Stormfather is the source of stormlight, and not the storm itself.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1177#12

Quote

QUESTION

Question about the stormlight itself : a highstorm, full of stormlight, fills the spheres. Then, the KR use the stormlight or the stormlight evaporates with time. Question : where does the stormlight in highstorms come from ? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the stormlight ?

BRANDON SANDERSON

the stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

Next the highstorms predate the shattering, (and the evolution that relies on them, and by everything we've seen, the stormlight they provide)

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1120#37

Quote

QUESTION

You mentioned the ecology on Roshar, and you mentioned that mostly the non-sentient spren predate the [shattering of Adonalsium?]. So my question is about the evolution of life on Roshar, and how essential the highstorms are to life on Roshar, how the plants evolved...so can we assume that life that is dependent on the highstorms predates the Shattering of Adonalsium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um…

QUESTION

Can we correctly assume? [Laughter]

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’ll tell you this. The highstorms predate, and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar resulting in a lot of what we have there.

For further evidence, we know that Parshendi predate the Shards arrivals and we've seen that the moment of change in the storm for them is the same metaphysical moment of calm that infuses spheres.

Since they require that moment to change, and since they in book refer to the Rider of Storms as theirs prior to his betrayal to help humans (aka when Honor did something and he began bonding) they recognized before he became something of Honor.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=987#18

Quote

QUESTION

So, do the Parshendi need a highstorm to change forms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They do, good guess! Excellent question.

QUESTION

Do they eat?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Do they eat? Yes.

QUESTION

So, they eat like grains and stuff like that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You will find out, but they do eat.

Then as I said, we have Honor's splintering and the merger of Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow into the Stormfather.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1163#7

Quote

QUESTION

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

So again, I don't believe there is anything barring bonding a Dawnsinger just because it wasn’t a pure splinter of one of the Shards.

Additionally, for further evidence that that isn't a requirement, a splinter that is not a spren at all, and has no connection to any of the three shards would grant similar abilities on Roshar.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#25

Quote

OUTIS

If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

The Shards are the most likely source of spren, because they are invested in Roshar. But they are not a requirement of the system.

Edit2: @FiveLate figured I'd tag you as well since I didn't notice you posted while I was editing.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Calderis

FiveLate · August 30, 2017

Ok I can't find the WOB your talking about @Calderis....but here are a few others for the thread to consider.

Insert StormFather into the blanks.

Nightwatcher, Cultivation,

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Mar 12th, 2015

Brandon Sanderson - /r/books AMA March 2015 (Verbatim)

WEIRYWRITER (REDDIT)

Hey Brandon! So glad you are doing another AMA!

1. Could you explain a little more about Cognitive shadows? When you first mentioned the name and gave the examples of Kelsier and the Shades from Threnody you kind of gave the impression that they were kind of like ghosts. But this past December at the Orem signing you mentioned that the Stormfather and the mist were also Cognitive shadows. The first makes sense to me, I had an entire theory about that (although I argued he was specifically Tanavast's and not Honor's). The second however really doesn't make sense to me, unless it was actually the mist spirit that is the shadow and that got missed in the report (it wasn't verbatim), but even still Preservation is still alive at that point so how can he have a "ghost"? (Unless him sacrificing his mind to form Ruin's prison counts as "death" in this situation?)

The rest of these feel free to pick and choose which ones you want to answer (I'm finding it difficult to narrow things down, so I figure I'll leave it to you to decide which ones you want answered).

2. Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?
3. Is the Well of Ascension Preservation's Perpendicularity? Or at least related to it (i.e. one is in the Physical Realm but the other is in the Cognitive but are still essentially different aspects of the same "thing")?
4. What if the Throne of Idris passed to someone who was not the child of the monarch? Like if they were the niece or nephew of the previous monarch. Their parent would not have passed on the Royal Locks to them, but if they gained the throne would they spontaneously manifest the Royal Locks? Would their children if they were born before?
5. Does hair that is still attached to a person's head get cut if a Shardblade passes through it? If not, if that person had the Royal Locks could they change the color of the hair "below" the cut?
6. You've mentioned there is a big Hint in Elantris, and later clarified that the hint is an Aon that Raoden mis-interprets. Is Aon Rao the Aon that Raoden mis-interprets? Is its true meaning something closer to "Investiture"?
7. According to Peter, Mraize is from Thaylenah, does Shallan just never mention his eyebrows or is he not ethnically Thaylen?
8. What are your current plans with regards to the Jasnah novella you wrote last summer?
9. Honorspren and windspren have been described as "cousins"; do Cryptics share a similar relationship with creationspren?

Anyway, thank you so much for answering any of my questions!

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT)

On the first question, I did not say the mists themselves were a cognitive shadow. That must have been a misunderstanding. The Stormfathertotally is, though. Cognitive shadows are basically ghosts, which can take a lot of different forms in the Cosmere, but follow general rules.

2. Yes. Good guess.
3. You're on the right track.
4. This will be discussed in the Warbreaker sequel, most likely.
5. Yes, hair gets cut. It counts as dead in my mind--but not to someone who has the Royal Locks. They could only change below, as you state, and wouldn't get their hair chopped off. (I'm not 100% sure on this, but I Think I've mentioned in Stormlight before that you can cut things like shells on living animals with a Shardblade, but then it doesn't cut the flesh.)

Lots of questions here. More to come, if I find time.

TAGS

stormfather, cognitive shadows, well of ascension, perpendicularities, shardpool, royal locks, unmade, shardblades,

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Mar 12th, 2015

Brandon Sanderson - /r/books AMA March 2015 (Verbatim)

WEIRYWRITER (REDDIT)

Hey Brandon! So glad you are doing another AMA!

1. Could you explain a little more about Cognitive shadows? When you first mentioned the name and gave the examples of Kelsier and the Shades from Threnody you kind of gave the impression that they were kind of like ghosts. But this past December at the Orem signing you mentioned that the Stormfather and the mist were also Cognitive shadows. The first makes sense to me, I had an entire theory about that (although I argued he was specifically Tanavast's and not Honor's). The second however really doesn't make sense to me, unless it was actually the mist spirit that is the shadow and that got missed in the report (it wasn't verbatim), but even still Preservation is still alive at that point so how can he have a "ghost"? (Unless him sacrificing his mind to form Ruin's prison counts as "death" in this situation?)

The rest of these feel free to pick and choose which ones you want to answer (I'm finding it difficult to narrow things down, so I figure I'll leave it to you to decide which ones you want answered).

2. Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?
3. Is the Well of Ascension Preservation's Perpendicularity? Or at least related to it (i.e. one is in the Physical Realm but the other is in the Cognitive but are still essentially different aspects of the same "thing")?
4. What if the Throne of Idris passed to someone who was not the child of the monarch? Like if they were the niece or nephew of the previous monarch. Their parent would not have passed on the Royal Locks to them, but if they gained the throne would they spontaneously manifest the Royal Locks? Would their children if they were born before?
5. Does hair that is still attached to a person's head get cut if a Shardblade passes through it? If not, if that person had the Royal Locks could they change the color of the hair "below" the cut?
6. You've mentioned there is a big Hint in Elantris, and later clarified that the hint is an Aon that Raoden mis-interprets. Is Aon Rao the Aon that Raoden mis-interprets? Is its true meaning something closer to "Investiture"?
7. According to Peter, Mraize is from Thaylenah, does Shallan just never mention his eyebrows or is he not ethnically Thaylen?
8. What are your current plans with regards to the Jasnah novella you wrote last summer?
9. Honorspren and windspren have been described as "cousins"; do Cryptics share a similar relationship with creationspren?

Anyway, thank you so much for answering any of my questions!

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT)

On the first question, I did not say the mists themselves were a cognitive shadow. That must have been a misunderstanding. The Stormfathertotally is, though. Cognitive shadows are basically ghosts, which can take a lot of different forms in the Cosmere, but follow general rules.

2. Yes. Good guess.
3. You're on the right track.
4. This will be discussed in the Warbreaker sequel, most likely.
5. Yes, hair gets cut. It counts as dead in my mind--but not to someone who has the Royal Locks. They could only change below, as you state, and wouldn't get their hair chopped off. (I'm not 100% sure on this, but I Think I've mentioned in Stormlight before that you can cut things like shells on living animals with a Shardblade, but then it doesn't cut the flesh.)

Lots of questions here. More to come, if I find time.

TAGS

stormfather, cognitive shadows, well of ascension, perpendicularities, shardpool, royal locks, unmade, shardblades,

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Mar 12th, 2015

Brandon Sanderson - /r/books AMA March 2015 (Verbatim)

WEIRYWRITER (REDDIT)

Hey Brandon! So glad you are doing another AMA!

1. Could you explain a little more about Cognitive shadows? When you first mentioned the name and gave the examples of Kelsier and the Shades from Threnody you kind of gave the impression that they were kind of like ghosts. But this past December at the Orem signing you mentioned that the Stormfather and the mist were also Cognitive shadows. The first makes sense to me, I had an entire theory about that (although I argued he was specifically Tanavast's and not Honor's). The second however really doesn't make sense to me, unless it was actually the mist spirit that is the shadow and that got missed in the report (it wasn't verbatim), but even still Preservation is still alive at that point so how can he have a "ghost"? (Unless him sacrificing his mind to form Ruin's prison counts as "death" in this situation?)

The rest of these feel free to pick and choose which ones you want to answer (I'm finding it difficult to narrow things down, so I figure I'll leave it to you to decide which ones you want answered).

2. Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?
3. Is the Well of Ascension Preservation's Perpendicularity? Or at least related to it (i.e. one is in the Physical Realm but the other is in the Cognitive but are still essentially different aspects of the same "thing")?
4. What if the Throne of Idris passed to someone who was not the child of the monarch? Like if they were the niece or nephew of the previous monarch. Their parent would not have passed on the Royal Locks to them, but if they gained the throne would they spontaneously manifest the Royal Locks? Would their children if they were born before?
5. Does hair that is still attached to a person's head get cut if a Shardblade passes through it? If not, if that person had the Royal Locks could they change the color of the hair "below" the cut?
6. You've mentioned there is a big Hint in Elantris, and later clarified that the hint is an Aon that Raoden mis-interprets. Is Aon Rao the Aon that Raoden mis-interprets? Is its true meaning something closer to "Investiture"?
7. According to Peter, Mraize is from Thaylenah, does Shallan just never mention his eyebrows or is he not ethnically Thaylen?
8. What are your current plans with regards to the Jasnah novella you wrote last summer?
9. Honorspren and windspren have been described as "cousins"; do Cryptics share a similar relationship with creationspren?

Anyway, thank you so much for answering any of my questions!

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT)

On the first question, I did not say the mists themselves were a cognitive shadow. That must have been a misunderstanding. The Stormfathertotally is, though. Cognitive shadows are basically ghosts, which can take a lot of different forms in the Cosmere, but follow general rules.

2. Yes. Good guess.
3. You're on the right track.
4. This will be discussed in the Warbreaker sequel, most likely.
5. Yes, hair gets cut. It counts as dead in my mind--but not to someone who has the Royal Locks. They could only change below, as you state, and wouldn't get their hair chopped off. (I'm not 100% sure on this, but I Think I've mentioned in Stormlight before that you can cut things like shells on living animals with a Shardblade, but then it doesn't cut the flesh.)

Lots of questions here. More to come, if I find time.

TAGS

stormfather, cognitive shadows, well of ascension, perpendicularities, shardpool, royal locks, unmade, shardblades,

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Mar 11th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Awesomeness Summoned (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

TAGS

nightwatcher, cultivation,

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Mar 11th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Awesomeness Summoned (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

TAGS

nightwatcher, cultivation,

Now debate....

Edited September 1, 2017 by FiveLate
Clarification

Catladyman · August 31, 2017

I really like the idea of the remaining Dawnsinger as the last Bondsmith spren.

If it is Cusicech, perhaps its apparent inactivity is due to damage caused by the Recreance? We know that spren were "killed" when the KR betrayed their oaths. The Stormfather and Nightwatchef are perhaps more powerful than Cusicesh due to the amount of Shardic power they have. Without the extra power Cusicesh was probably killed the same way as the other bonded spren and lost its identity/sentience.

Also, it's title is Cusicesh the Protector, which is definitely in line the with Dawnsingers' reputation.

Kingsdaughter613 · August 31, 2017

Cusicesh being stuck in a pattern is a major reason I think it might be a Bondsmith spren. It acts broken.

We don't know enough about the Nightwatcher, but Cultivation is still around, so perhaps she protected 'her' spren?

And the Stormfather was merged with a Cognitive Shadow, so that may explain why he still has a mind.

ChazBolt · August 31, 2017

@Calderis Thanks for all those sources. Its great to have people who can really provide concrete information like that!

However, i dont see a proof that the Stormfather predated the shattering, necessarily. According to your sources, we know the highstorms predated the Shattering, and we know that the Stormfather is the method by which Stormlight is given, but we dont know if Stormlight was there before the Shattering. It could be that the climate event of the highstorms was present on Roshar which led to the evaolution of all the plants and life on the planet, but that doesnt necessitate Stormlight being there, only the climate event of highstorms.

And what of the Nightwatcher? Was it there pre-shattering and was only later absorbed by Cultivation as a Cognitive Shadow?

Quote

So again, I don't believe there is anything barring bonding a Dawnsinger just because it wasn’t a pure splinter of one of the Shards.

But we have no proof that one is capable of that. We have proof that shard-splinter-spren (ie Stormfather, nightwatcher) are capable of that, but nothing points to allowing Dawnsingers the same ability. Except for this.... (thanks @FiveLate)

Quote

2. Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

A; Yes

IF the Dawnsingers were changed to be Unmade and were basically Cognitive Shadows of Odium and became splinter-shard-spren, then it would make sense that one of them could be used to bond a Bondsmith, and is probably Odium's Champion. And that would be that the one remaining Dawnsinger that wasnt Unmade could also bond a Bondsmith.

Which then makes me ask, which of the Unmade is the spren for the Champion? Or are all of them o.0?

Edited August 31, 2017 by ChazBolt

Amanuensis · August 31, 2017

8 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Which then makes me ask, which of the Unmade is the spren for the Champion? Or are all of them o.0?

If the Black Shardwielder in the vision is meant to represent the Champion rather than Odium, the nine shadows might represent him bonding with each of the Unmade.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Amanuensis

ChazBolt · August 31, 2017

Just now, Amanuensis said:

If the Black Shardwielder in the vision is meant to represent the Champion rather than Odium, the nine shadows might represent him bonding with each of the Unmade.

Thats what im thinking. Im also thinking this will give him every Voidsurge power. He wont be stuck to just 2 powers. Which will mean all the Orders of the KR will have to be united to defeat him.

Calderis · August 31, 2017

@ChazBolt how could the ecosystem of Roshar have developed without Stormlight? Greatshells require surges and Stormlight to reach their sizes. The purpose of a gemhearts is to hold Stormlight to feed their spren bonds in order to manipulate gravitation so they don't crush themselves. Skyeels do the same thing to fly. Literally everything on Roshar relies on the stormlight in the storms.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1107#12

Quote

AHOYMATEY ()

Do all greatshells have spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

In order to survive with the science that I built, the greatshells almost all require some sort of spren to keep them from collapsing. (I suspect greatshells in the water may not require them

And seriously, Nightblood is debatable which is why a chose a Seon as the example, if a Seon bond on Roshar would be treated the same as a Nahel bond when there is literally no involvement with any of Roshar's Shards, how is Shardic involvement a requirement? All bonds are treated the same.

Edit: added WoB

Edited August 31, 2017 by Calderis

jamskinner · August 31, 2017

Is there any way the Heralds are the dawnshards? In practical terms they are not helping humans so can't be used to fight odium

ChazBolt · August 31, 2017

@Calderis hmm. Well you have a solid point. The Stormfather is necessary for highstorms which have been around since before the Shattering, but then i dont get what the Stormfather meant by "I am the memory men create for him now that he is gone." The Stormfather existed before and is independent from Honor.

Also, Shardic involvement may only be requirement for Bondsmith bonds? Seeing as the only Bondsmith we know are Dalinar (=Stormfather) and Taravangian (=Nightwatcher) (edit: the Mr. T part is theory of course). So i still dont see a Dawnsinger being a spren for a Bondmsith. I cant rule it out, but i dont see it happening.

Unless somehow the Dawnsingers were Splinters after the shattering, in which case they are shardic-spren.

Edited August 31, 2017 by ChazBolt

ChazBolt · August 31, 2017

5 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

Is there any way the Heralds are the dawnshards? In practical terms they are not helping humans so can't be used to fight odium

The Dawnshards are said to "bind all creatures voidish and mortal", so they sound like an item. (Possibly the black orbs that Gavilar had but that is still up for debate.)

Crucible of Shards · August 31, 2017

19 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Also, Shardic involvement may only be requirement for Bondsmith bonds? Seeing as the only Bondsmith we know are Dalinar (=Stormfather) and Taravangian (=Nightwatcher).

I would just like to point out that this is speculation on Mr. T, not fact.

Although, it's likely

ChazBolt · August 31, 2017

22 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I would just like to point out that this is speculation on Mr. T, not fact.

Although, it's likely

Yes, yes, of course

Jace21 · August 31, 2017

As far as I know the only confirmed facts about Bondsmith Spren is that they are Unique and Powerful, at least moreso than regular spren.

The only options I can think of given in the text would be:

Stormfather - Confirmed Bondsmith Spren. Pre-dates the arrival of the shards. Was able to bond before he merged with Tanavasts cognitive shadow.

Nightwatcher - Not confirmed but likely as she is Cultivations equivalent to the Stormfather. Not much mire information is known.

An Unmade - Possible I guess but in my opinion extremely unlikely. I have never understood the idea that the 3rd Bondsmith spren would be a splinter of Odium. I get that there are 3 shards and 3 bondsmiths but why would a splinter of Odium be involved in a magic system of Honour/Cultivation?

A Dawnsinger - My preferred theory. We know Roshar is 10-centric so it is very possoble there were 10 dawnsingers. If 9 were corrupted and became the unmade (only a theory but one I subscribe to) this would leave 1 to be the last bondsmith Spren. Described as powerful friendly spren that helped humanity, a dawnsinger would seem to fit the requirements. Worth noting is that as a probable Adonalsium-spren, a dawnsinger would contain parts of all shards, including equal parts of Cultivation and Honour, possibly being the balance between the Stormfather amd Nightwatcher, which are primarliy of 1 of the 2 shards.

Cusicesh - was mentioned earlier in the thread and I am now thinking Cusicesh = Last Dawnsinger is a real possibility. Cusicesh follows a strict pattern and doesnt seem fully sentient, a "pattern in nature" as Pattern describes broken spren. Confirmed as a level below the Nightwatcher/Stormfather, the difference in power could be due to lack of an "enhancement" by a shard. This could also be the reason he seems broken, he lacked the enhancement given by a shard that let the other 2 bondsmith spren survive the recreance intact. But at the same time had enough power to stay more alive than most spren who just became deadblades.

Have I missed any posibilities? I currently believe the evidence points toward a dawnsinger (possibly Cusicesh) as the last bondsmith spren. Admittedly it's based on several theories/assumtions but I still think we cant do any better with the small amount of information available to us.

Likewise if anyone disagrees or thinks I am crazy please say so we can discuss it more!

PS: I am totally crazy

Edited August 31, 2017 by Jace21
Spellings and Grammar

Zalocx · September 1, 2017

One thing I'm interested in is getting confirmation that the dawnsingers are actually spren. The only source we have on that is an ardent talking about what they are considered in Vorin mythology. And that's makes me just buying what Kabsal said at face value unlikely at best. Considering the "Singer" part of the name, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dawnsingers turn out to be what the newly arrived humans called the Listeners before the Desolation began and Odium got his hands on them. Kind of a "Kalad the Usurper and Peacegiver the Blessed are the same person and history has just forgotten“ kind of deal. Especially since that conversation discussing them as "kindly spren" happens when Shallan is asking why the Dawnsingers didn't help the humans against the Voidbringers

Edited September 1, 2017 by Zalocx

Calderis · September 1, 2017

3 hours ago, Zalocx said:

One thing I'm interested in is getting confirmation that the dawnsingers are actually spren. The only source we have on that is an ardent talking about what they are considered in Vorin mythology. And that's makes me just buying what Kabsal said at face value unlikely at best. Considering the "Singer" part of the name, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dawnsingers turn out to be what the newly arrived humans called the Listeners before the Desolation began and Odium got his hands on them. Kind of a "Kalad the Usurper and Peacegiver the Blessed are the same person and history has just forgotten“ kind of deal. Especially since that conversation discussing them as "kindly spren" happens when Shallan is asking why the Dawnsingers didn't help the humans against the Voidbringers

This is actually one of the reasons I believe the Dawnsingers were corrupted into the Unmade in the first place.

Vorinism barely seems to touch on the Dawnsingers themselves, even if it is where we get the name from. I think they have forgotten.

The listeners on the other hand never mention the Dawnsingers by any name, but I believe they were their gods originally. I don't remember which form it's about, but one of the songs says,

"though crafted by gods, twas Unmade hand..."

So one of the forms was changed by the Unmade. I think it was made by the Dawnsingers, and corrupted along with them.

teknopathetic · September 7, 2017

I like the WOB saying that there are three bondsmith and there are three shards (but Brandon says he wont elaborate on of that is why there are three bond smiths).

Maybe the third bondsmith bonds an unmade? i always felt the "certainly, one of them is a traitor" quote was about unmade, and not the heralds. It would be awesome if an Unmade betrayed Odium, perhaps because the unmade did not want to be murdered if and when Odium won the fight against Roshar. I could totally see a sentient unamade realizing that helping Odium would seal his/her own fate. The logical thing for that unmade to do would be to bond with a human and fight his/her father.

[OB] Unmade and Bondsmiths

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