[OB] SO GLAD HE'S DEAD

[Andy92]

The thing with the flashback is that I new Sadeas was a pig. I knew Dalinar had a troubled past, but this really sheds some light on how close he was with Sadeas in his early adult years. Dalinar has really come a long way to be a more honorable person. 

[KidWayne]

I'm uncomfortable with all the praise of murder-as-an-act-of-righteousness I see on this thread. The right thing to do would have been to charge Sadeas with the crimes of treason and sedition and then bring him to justice in a court of law. That's legitimate authority properly exercised. Sadeas' influence would have waned quickly after it became general knowledge that Stormlight healed Lopen's amputated arm. His efforts to re-start the back-biting and political strife would have come to an abrupt end on their own without murder.

Assassination & murder are wrong not because they cause death, but because they elevate one person's (or one group's) proclamation of justice above the law and above the recognized authorities. It's a self-righteous act; it's also indefensible when challenged. At the end of the day, murder flows from hatred. When that hatred is directed at appropriate targets, we can call it justice (as many are apparently doing with Adolin's murder of Sadeas). However, what is or is not an appropriate target - as well as who can be trusted to carry out such justice - is a super slippery slope. Adolin is not a capital "G" god. I wouldn't trust anyone other than God (or some other being with omniscience & an unshakable commitment to morality/justice) to unilaterally exercise that kind of authority.

Edited August 30, 2017 by KidWayne

[Calderis]

@KidWayne this has been heavily debated and unfortunately, as a Highprince, there was nothing to charge Sadeas with because there's no real legal structure beyond what the king and the Highprinces decree. 

In a modern legal structure you're correct. In Alethkar that was not an option. 

In an unjust system, you cannot expect justice. 

[Nathrangking]

1 hour ago, KidWayne said:

I'm uncomfortable with all the praise of murder-as-an-act-of-righteousness I see on this thread. The right thing to do would have been to charge Sadeas with the crimes of treason and sedition and then bring him to justice in a court of law. That's legitimate authority properly exercised. Sadeas' influence would have waned quickly after it became general knowledge that Stormlight healed Lopen's amputated arm. His efforts to re-start the back-biting and political strife would have come to an abrupt end on their own without murder.

Assassination & murder are wrong not because they cause death, but because they elevate one person's (or one group's) proclamation of justice above the law and above the recognized authorities. It's a self-righteous act; it's also indefensible when challenged. At the end of the day, murder flows from hatred. When that hatred is directed at appropriate targets, we can call it justice (as many are apparently doing with Adolin's murder of Sadeas). However, what is or is not an appropriate target - as well as who can be trusted to carry out such justice - is a super slippery slope. Adolin is not a capital "G" god. I wouldn't trust anyone other than God (or some other being with omniscience & an unshakable commitment to morality/justice) to unilaterally exercise that kind of authority.

@Calderis is quite correct there was less than zero chance of Sadeas being punished in any way. There was no system in Alethkar which would hold him liable for his actions. As a Highprince he had virtual immunity to any accusation that could be leveled against him. 

If Elokhar is a a king Sadeas is not far from that himself. There was no one who could bring him to justice through modern means of a trial. His death of at Adolin's hand was the only chance of suffering the consequences of his actions that Sadeas would ever have seen. Had Adolin failed Sadeas would have gone on with his life and that would have been it.

[Emerald101]

The discovery of Urithiru, the battle with the Voidbringers, the Everstorm, and the emerging population of Knights Radiant lend Dalinar a great deal of legitimacy following WoR. It may be that the system would be sufficiently upset for a legitimate court of law to convict and hang Sadeas, especially with two highprinces absent and two more backing Dalinar. Even without that though, I have to agree with @KidWayne. One individual never has the authority to kill unless granted that authority by Society. No matter how perfect a system we humans attempt to create, there will be times when the victim feels as if the system has failed them, that there is absolutely no recourse. That doesn't make the acts of Vigilantes acceptable. If we allow that we might as well not bother making a system.

edit: Not to imply that Sadeas wasn't scum of the lowliest type to ever walk the face of Roshar. He was. I simply contend that Adolin was wrong to deal with Sadeas in the way that he did.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Emerald101
phrasing, punctuation, minor additions

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 hours ago, Amended said:

Dalinar is no longer the person he was, at all. From Gavilar's assassination to WoK he spent so time rehauling himself to live up to Gavilar's final words that I doubt he thought too much about his past, and during WoK he made peace with his past in regards to how it led him to who he now is. He'll regret the actions of his past, sure, but he's learned from it, moved on, and is trying to save the world, which certainly a good way to say sorry for actions of the past.

I think many people forget with all of the Moses parallels that Dalinar has that Moses was an Egyptian prince and warlord for a long time before his turn as a prophet, with all the implications and abuses that the position carried.

I know it's off topic but... Moses was twenty when he left Egypt. And one of the things he did as a prince was arrange a day off for the slaves. So that comparison is actually pretty inaccurate... 

Honestly, Ishmael is a better comparison, at least if we are going by the Jewish/Christian bible.

On topic, there is the idea that if someone is coming to kill you, kill them first. Sadeas has tried to kill Adolin and Dalinar before, and just threatened to do it again. I think we can argue pre-emptive self defense here if we really wanted to. The only way for Adolin to be certain Sadeas was not going to harm him or his family was by killing him.  It actually bears some similarity to an abused person killing their abuser.

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Calderis]

@Emerald101 there is no system though. 

The King and the Highprinces are the law. When the origin of law is men who have attained their power through birthright or conquest, and the people have no say whatsoever in those laws, society has no power to grant anyone the authority to kill. 

In this situation, the origin of law, and the authority to enforce it were only able to be granted by the Highprinces or the King.

In the event that the Highprinces or Elhokar did agree to punish Sadeas, do you believe that Sadeas would have submitted to that judgment? The kingdom would have split, and there would have been war. 

The alternatives to Adolin's actions was war or no change. 

[kimni]

I think Adolin murdering Sadeas was basically a choice between two evils. Either let Sadeas continue his plotting (because even with Dalinar's power at the end of the book, there's no way he could ever have stopped/punished/killed Sadeas in a 'legitimate' way), or kill him (which is murder, no matter the reason, and might lead Adolin down the proverbial slippery slope - or might not. We'll see).

Adolin chose what he saw as the lesser evil (though the choice might have been mostly subconscious, since the murder was rather unplanned). That doesn't necessarily make his actions justified, and we don't know yet if he made the right choice. I guess we'll see in the rest of the book.

Personally, I think Sadeas deserved a knife through the eye, but there will definitely be consequences to his death, and they won't all be good.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Many of these things have been said before, so I will just quickly reiterate some of the most relevant ones:

House Kholin spent all of WoR trying to outmanouver Sadeas to kill him. They failed. And yes, having betrayed them at the tower, having gotten 6000 soldiers killed, and attempting to assasinate Dalinar on a bridge crossing in WoR was not enough to charge him of anything. Can anyone seriously tell me they believe they could have legally charged Sadeas of anything and gotten any more than a "bad Sadeas" speech as reprimand? At best, its not so impossible to imagine they would have said, nice backstabbing, you are the best alethi ever

Stop applying our modern ideals, modern society, and modern laws to this situation. It is not. If you want to apply something from our world at least make it feudal system laws, as they are the closest to this. 

The most twisted thing is that if Sadeas were not a highprince I wouldn't be surprised if what Adolin did was legal, as he is the heir to a highprince. Top 20 most important people in the kingdom. Is it right for Adolin to be able to legally kill someone lower rank than him, yet it be murder if they are higher rank? No. Maybe that will be a reminder that this is not our world, or a fair, right, moral or just system.

The moment that someone can tell me a feasible way that Sadeas could have been brought to justice other than killing him, I will bow out and accept what Adolin did was wrong. 

As a final point, it was said above Sadeas would have no influence anyway in the new world. 2 chapters into Oathbringer, and already every highprince that was not in the fight 6 days earlier with Dalinar is...doing what they always did, bicker, whisper and politick. They sure don't seem to have changed at all in this new world.

Edited August 31, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[StormblessDave]

Sadeas is beginning to look more and more like Straff Venture, he just might become Brandon's most hated character

[hypatia]

The thing is the Kholin - conspirators would probably have succeded in legaly killing Sadeas, IF Kaladin hadn't interfered.

The goal of this right to duel was to get rid of Sadeas and IIRC Adolin is still holding this right.

Adolin has a problem, but as I see it it's more that he over-idiolizes his father and really - even with only one of the flashbacks - Dalinar would have done the same with lesser reasons at this age.

And IIRC - wasn't Sadeas planing to kill not only Dalinar but also Elhokar trying to become king himself? I hope Aladar is really a good Highprince of Informations

[WhiteLeeopard]

11 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Sadeas is beginning to look more and more like Straff Venture, he just might become Brandon's most hated character

Something tells me that title will go to Amaram. 

[StormblessDave]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Something tells me that title will go to Amaram. 

True, Amaram has scope especially if he survives a few more books. Sadeas does have potential in the Dalinar prologues though.

[hypatia]

Something - the new WoB about how Gavilar has become a Highprince - tells me Adolin new clothes can be green and white.

[WhiteLeeopard]

5 minutes ago, hypatia said:

Something - the new WoB about how Gavilar has become a Highprince - tells me Adolin new clothes can be green and white.

That seems reaaally doubtful. Not that it wouldn't be hilariously awesome . 

[FiveLate]

I am pretty sure that you have to be from that "region" to even be considered.

[Amanuensis]

10 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Something tells me that title will go to Amaram. 

7 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

True, Amaram has scope especially if he survives a few more books. Sadeas does have potential in the Dalinar prologues though.

Personally I don't think Amaram will be a villain for much longer. He was misguided, sure, and did immoral things as a result, but I wouldn't say he's evil. He did what he believed was necessary to save the world. Now that a big part of that has been proven wrong, I think he'll start a journey towards becoming an actual Radiant. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

12 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Personally I don't think Amaram will be a villain for much longer. He was misguided, sure, and did immoral things as a result, but I wouldn't say he's evil. He did what he believed was necessary to save the world. Now that a big part of that has been proven wrong, I think he'll start a journey towards becoming an actual Radiant. 

I'd hate for that to happen. 

Blackthorn running off while high to kill is one thing. Coldbloodedly killing a group of your men that would have died to protect you, and selling to slavery a man that did a tremendous feat to save your life to steal from him is very very different. As Kaladin said, if Amaram had wanted truly what was best for Roshar he could just have asked him for it, and he would have given it to him. Kaladin had already said he didn't want the Shards. At that point, the only difference for Amaram was the glory of saying he killed a Shardbearer. Personal glory does not exactly seem like "what is best for Roshar". I'm sure he believes all the drivel he sells, but honestly that is just an excuse for personal gain. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Amanuensis]

20 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

 

 

 

 

I'd hate for that to happen. 

Blackthorn running off while high to kill is one thing. Coldbloodedly killing a group of your men that would have died to protect you, and selling to slavery a man that did a tremendous feat to save your life to steal from him is very very different. As Kaladin said, if Amaram had wanted truly what was best for Roshar he could just have asked him for it, and he would have given it to him. Kaladin had already said he didn't want the Shards. At that point, the only difference for Amaram was the glory of saying he killed a Shardbearer. Personal glory does not exactly seem like "what is best for Roshar". I'm sure he believes all the drivel he sells, but honestly that is just an excuse for personal gain. 

I don't agree that's why Amaram did what he did. It's possible, but...

From The Way of Kings, Chapter 51:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Amaram stepped forward, expression grim. He went down on one knee before Kaladin. "I'm sorry."

"Bastard!" Kaladin screamed as loud as he could.

"I couldn't risk them telling what they saw. This is what must be, soldier. It's for the good of the army. They're going to be told that your squad helped the Shardbearer. You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

"You're taking the Shards for yourself!"

"I am trained in the sword," Amaram said, "and am accustomed to plate. It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards."

"You could have asked me for them! Storm you!"

"And when news got around camp?" Amaram said grimly. "That you'd killed the Shardbearer but I had the Shards? Nobody would believe that you'd given them up of your own free choice. Besides, son. You wouldn't have let me keep them." Amaram shook his head. "You have changed your mind. In a day or two, you'd have wanted the wealth and prestige - others would convince you of it. You'd have demanded that I return them to you. It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar."

"It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Storm it, you're supposed to be better than the others!" Tears dripped from Kaladin's chin.

"Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true. He turned away, waving to the stormwarden. The man turned from the brazier, holding something he'd been heating in the coals. A small branding iron.

"It's all an act?" Kaladin asked. "The honorable brightlord who cares about his men? Lies? All of it?"

"This is for my men," Amaram said. He took the Shardblade from the cloth, holding it in his hand. The gemstone at its pommel let out a flash of white light. "You can't begin to understand the weights I carry, spearman." Amaram's voice lost some of its calm tone of reason. He sounded defensive. "I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearman when thousands of people may be saved by my decision."

...

"You came for me," Amaram said, limping to the door, stepping around Reesh's body. "For saving my life, I spare yours. Five men telling the same story would have been believed, but a single slave will be ignored. The warcamp will be told that you didn't try to help your fellows - but you didn't try to stop them, either. You fled and were captured by my guard."

Amaram hesitated by the door, resting the blunt edge of the stolen Shardblade on his shoulder. The guilt was still there in his eyes, but he grew hard, covering it.

Amaram clearly feels bad about this decision. Sure, he could be using Restares to deflect the blame off himself, which may be a factor, but we can't ignore that he's unhappy about this decision. It took several hours for him to make this choice. Given the fact he spared Kaladin to begin with, he proves he still has honor. If he was truly evil he would have killed Kaladin as well. I won't say Amaram isn't at fault, but the Sons of Honor are clearly misguided if not brainwashed entirely. I think Kaladin turning out to be a Radiant will have a huge impact on his character and where things go from here. The alternative to him trying to redeem himself is turning against the thing he was aiming to do the whole time: restoring the Knights Radiant and saving Roshar.

EDIT: And I think that's out of character for him. I believe Amaram has a lot of room to grow.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Amanuensis

[+eveorjoy]

5 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I don't agree that's why Amaram did what he did. It's possible, but...

From The Way of Kings, Chapter 51:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Amaram stepped forward, expression grim. He went down on one knee before Kaladin. "I'm sorry."

"Bastard!" Kaladin screamed as loud as he could.

"I couldn't risk them telling what they saw. This is what must be, soldier. It's for the good of the army. They're going to be told that your squad helped the Shardbearer. You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

"You're taking the Shards for yourself!"

"I am trained in the sword," Amaram said, "and am accustomed to plate. It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards."

"You could have asked me for them! Storm you!"

"And when news got around camp?" Amaram said grimly. "That you'd killed the Shardbearer but I had the Shards? Nobody would believe that you'd given them up of your own free choice. Besides, son. You wouldn't have let me keep them." Amaram shook his head. "You have changed your mind. In a day or two, you'd have wanted the wealth and prestige - others would convince you of it. You'd have demanded that I return them to you. It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar."

"It's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Storm it, you're supposed to be better than the others!" Tears dripped from Kaladin's chin.

"Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true. He turned away, waving to the stormwarden. The man turned from the brazier, holding something he'd been heating in the coals. A small branding iron.

"It's all an act?" Kaladin asked. "The honorable brightlord who cares about his men? Lies? All of it?"

"This is for my men," Amaram said. He took the Shardblade from the cloth, holding it in his hand. The gemstone at its pommel let out a flash of white light. "You can't begin to understand the weights I carry, spearman." Amaram's voice lost some of its calm tone of reason. He sounded defensive. "I can't worry about the lives of a few darkeyed spearman when thousands of people may be saved by my decision."

...

"You came for me," Amaram said, limping to the door, stepping around Reesh's body. "For saving my life, I spare yours. Five men telling the same story would have been believed, but a single slave will be ignored. The warcamp will be told that you didn't try to help your fellows - but you didn't try to stop them, either. You fled and were captured by my guard."

Amaram hesitated by the door, resting the blunt edge of the stolen Shardblade on his shoulder. The guilt was still there in his eyes, but he grew hard, covering it.

Amaram clearly feels bad about this decision. Sure, he could be using Restares to deflect the blame of himself, which may be a factor, but we can't ignore that he's unhappy about this decision. It took several hours for him to make this choice. Given the fact he spared Kaladin to begin with, he proves he still has honor. If he was truly evil he would have killed Kaladin as well. I won't say Amaram isn't at fault, but the Sons of Honor are clearly misguided if not brainwashed entirely. I think Kaladin turning out to be a Radiant will have a huge impact on his character and where things go from here. The alternative to him trying to redeem himself is turning against the thing he was aiming to do the whole time: restoring the Knights Radiant and saving Roshar.

Actually, Amaram now regrets not killing Kaladin. He didn't spare Kaladin for honor but as a twisted kind of mercy. At the end of WoR he regrets his merciful act because it ruined a friendship. This is not someone with true honor making his group name, Sons of Honor, very hypocritical. He is also worse than Sadeas according to Hoid. I don't think he will be joining the good guys anytime soon. Many villains have mercy. Many villains do things because they believe it is the right thing to do. A villain can only be redeemed after he sees the error of his ways. Amaram has long way to go before this is possible. 

[Amanuensis]

2 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

 

 

Actually, Amaram now regrets not killing Kaladin. He didn't spare Kaladin for honor but as a twisted kind of mercy. At the end of WoR he regrets his merciful act because it ruined a friendship. This is not someone with true honor making his group name, Sons of Honor, very hypocritical. He is also worse than Sadeas according to Hoid. I don't think he will be joining the good guys anytime soon. Many villains have mercy. Many villains do things because they believe it is the right thing to do. A villain can only be redeemed after he sees the error of his ways. Amaram has long way to go before this is possible. 

I don't remember that, to be honest. Will have to check WoR. Any idea what chapter this is? Or any keywords I can search for?

EDIT: As for the Hoid bit, I think that's more to deal with the principle of Sadeas being upfront with his being crem but Amaram hiding it.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Amanuensis

[+eveorjoy]

26 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I don't remember that, to be honest. Will have to check WoR. Any idea what chapter this is? Or any keywords I can search for?

 

 

WoR page 1061 From the Chapter 88 "The Man Who Owned the Winds" Bold added by me.

Quote

Dalinar thought him a murderer. Amaram drew in a long, deep breath. Prices would need to be paid to see the Heralds return, but by Jezerezeh himself, the loss of Dalinar's friendship would be a stiff one indeed. Would that mercy had not stayed his hand, all those months ago, when he could have executed that spearman.

This is not a man who has faced what he has done and is ready to join the heroes. This is a villain who tries to rationalize his actions. He regrets only not killing another innocent man.

 As to Sadeas's death, it is troubling that so many think Adolins act is a good thing. Just because Sadeas death is helpful and perhaps a good thing that does not make Adolin's actions good. What if Adolin had killed someone he thought was Sadeas? It would have been the same act, but I doubt those here praising Adolin would be as proud. There were other ways to remove Sadeas: from trying him for treason to stripping him of his rank and exiling him from Urithru. Yes, they would have been harder, but there would not have been someone for Ialai and others to martyr use as a symbol against Dalinar.  

However, whether Sadeas's death is a good thing or not does not make Adolin committing murder a good thing. I love Adolin, but just because a character I love killed a character I hated that does not make the act good. If this was so, Kaladin should not have only killed Amaram, but he should have helped Moash kill Elhokar. Moash tried to kill Elhokar for the same reason Adolin killed Sadeas, revenge.

It was not justice nor was it right. If it had been, Adolin would not be slowly breaking down right now and on the path to becoming a radiant himself. 

[Amanuensis]

9 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

 

 

WoR page 1061 From the Chapter 88 "The Man Who Owned the Winds" Bold added by me.

This is not a man who has faced what he has done and is ready to join the heroes. This is a villain who tries to rationalize his actions. He regrets only not killing another innocent man.

 As to Sadeas's death, it is troubling that so many think Adolins act is a good thing. Just because Sadeas death is helpful and perhaps a good thing that does not make Adolin's actions good. What if Adolin had killed someone he thought was Sadeas? It would have been the same act, but I doubt those here praising Adolin would be as proud. There were other ways to remove Sadeas: from trying him for treason to stripping him of his rank and exiling him from Urithru. Yes, they would have been harder, but there would not have been someone for Ialai and others to martyr use as a symbol against Dalinar.  

However, whether Sadeas's death is a good thing or not does not make Adolin committing murder a good thing. I love Adolin, but just because a character I love killed a character I hated that does not make the act good. If this was so, Kaladin should not have only killed Amaram, but he should have helped Moash kill Elhokar. Moash tried to kill Elhokar for the same reason Adolin killed Sadeas, revenge.

It was not justice nor was it right. If it had been, Adolin would not be slowly breaking down right now and on the path to becoming a radiant himself. 

That's not long after Dalinar stripped him of his cloak, correct? And before Kaladin was revealed a Radiant? If so, I don't see that contradictory to where I think Amaram will go at all. At this point he doesn't believe what he did was wrong (in the context of his goals, not in the context of morality). What Amaram did is undoubtedly immoral. But I don't think anything is as simple as good and evil. Likewise with Adolin killing Sadeas, it certainly wasn't good or just. But it was justified in the sense that Sadeas was asking for it, and if left to go about his business, very likely would have prevented to Kholins from achieving what's necessary to save the world. Adolin too is an example of doing something immoral for a greater purpose, which is a reoccurring theme in this series. I don't expect that Brandon will personally reward or admonish actions such as these. I think individual situations will dictate, and that he's going to leave it up to the reader to interpret things, as he prefers. But I would, unfortunately, say that both what Amaram and Adolin did were net-positive, in that the first made Kaladin the man who he is today and put him in a position to save Dalinar from Szeth, defeat him, and allow Szeth the opportunity to be redeemed, and in that the second removed a genuinely horrible man with ambitions to destroy the protagonists from the equation of the apocalypse.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Amanuensis

[WhiteLeeopard]

@Amanuensis I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it at all. I see Amaram as someone with a holier than thou attitude because of the gain it gets him, basically influence and glory. In the passage above where he regrets not killing Kaladin, if you go up a bit you can see he doesn't really regret losing Dalinar's friendship. What he regrets is losing influence over Dalinar. It took him hours to decide to kill Kaladin's men because he was breaking an ancient law (who kills the Shardbearer gets the Shards). Which is probably the most sacred law of all Alethkar. 

Sorry, but I maintain if he truly thought the Shards in his hands were the best for the kingdom (which reading that seems completely the typical thing a hypocrite says), there was no difference between asking Kaladin for the Shards, raising him to 1st nahn, and keeping him close to him as a trusted captain/whichever rank he wanted to give him.

Also, Syl was already in the process of bonding Kaladin in Amaram's army, so he might have gone to Dalinar even without becoming a slave. As we have seen, spren bring the proto radiants together, specially towards Dalinar.

18 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Moash tried to kill Elhokar for the same reason Adolin killed Sadeas

Moash was revenge. Adolin was more slanted to self defense. Maybe not for himself, but for his family. Adolin had just walked up to Sadeas and asked what would he do now it was proved Dalinar was not insane, and he had been right. To which Sadeas answered, "I'm going to kill him just as I've been trying for weeks". Adolin knew perfectly well that wasn't a bluff or an empty threat, but the total truth. He saved his father from the previous assasination, but there was nothing to guarantee he would be able to save him forever from endless assasins. And what treason could the acuse Sadeas of? I don't think he had broken any laws. Actually, don't think highprinces can break any laws, other than kill the king.

Edited August 31, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Amanuensis]

11 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

 

@Amanuensis I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it at all. I see Amaram as someone with a holier than thou attitude because of the gain it gets him, basically influence and glory. In the passage above where he regrets not killing Kaladin, if you go up a bit you can see he doesn't really regret losing Dalinar's friendship. What he regrets is losing influence over Dalinar. It took him hours to decide to kill Kaladin's men because he was breaking an ancient law (who kills the Shardbearer gets the Shards). Which is probably the most sacred law of all Alethkar. 

Sorry, but I maintain if he truly thought the Shards in his hands were the best for the kingdom (which reading that seems completely the typical thing a hypocrite says), there was no difference between asking Kaladin for the Shards, raising him to 1st nahn, and keeping him close to him as a trusted captain/whichever rank he wanted to give him.

Likewise, I respect your opinion as well. I haven't read either book in quite a while, but whenever I read Amaram, I don't get the feeling his character is as simple as holier than thou and power hungry. I certainly believe he has a hire opinion of himself, given the culture he was raised in. That and he's privy to information most people don't have, and has people with unknown motives whispering in his ear about what's necessary. Personally, I think everything that's happened with Kaladin will humble him. I'm not suggesting the change will be immediate, but from my perspective, people aren't static and unchanging. Could he get worse? Continue to oppose the Radiants? Sure. That's for Brandon to decide. But I don't think that'll be the direction he goes.

In a way, it all comes to Kaladin. There's only two ways for him to progress as a character, via Amaram. Vengeance and forgiveness. If Kaladin exacts vengeance via murder, he's no better than Amaram, and deals with the same problems Adolin is going through now, albeit on a less severe scale. He could, however, petition to get him arrested. That's a more likely path, but that requires direct conflict, in which Amaram will be forced to deal with the result of his actions and respond accordingly. One possibility there is Amaram giving up on becoming a Radiant and deciding to ruin them. Maybe he comes to hate Kaladin and embrace that hatred and it twists him to work for Odium. But, in my opinion, that's not the moral of this story. I would much rather see Amaram try to redeem himself and see how Dalinar and Kaladin react. Whether he fails, succeeds, or dies trying, I can't say for sure. But I think the most beneficial character path for Kaladin is learning to forgive him, and in order to do that, Amaram needs to do something that warrants forgiveness.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Amanuensis