[OB] SO GLAD HE'S DEAD

[Guest]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

Was it murder? Of course it was, but it was the provoked and justified murder of a despot. There were no other ways to deal with Sadeas and while yes, it wasn't pretty, it remained the only viable option.

Yes, it was justified. Though I still cringe at the phrase "justified murder", murder should never be justified except for the immediate preservation of your own life or the life of others. Provocation should never justify murder. I still think, that it wasn't necessary. He could have done nothing, or have waited for a different opportunity. Adolin simply snapped. I don't blame him, but I still can't justify it.

In the end, there is no point in reminiscing. What is done, is done. The consequences will be coming anyway.

 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

In ancient times (not even that much ancient) conquer, rape and pillage were all perfectly normal actions during war. And waging war to expand your nation was also perfectly normal. As much as we find sadeas and dalinar disgusting, we have to keep in mind that every. single. conqueror. in history. was like that. Alexander the great, julius caesar, charlemagne, all manner of people lauded in history books, all committed similar actions, without ever a thought that they may be wrong. Except maybe the rape part, some of them may have been considerate enough to realize it was unnecessary abuse of the defeated foe (or simply faithful to their spouses), but they were certainly cool with their troops doing it. Even in modern time, mass raping of enemy civilians is common after capturing a city. I've read some diaries of german people who lived in berlin during the second world war.

An important point. Rape and pillage are really nothing new in times of war. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by SLNC

[+eveorjoy]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

So, while I do not like nor condone dalinar's actions, I still see him as a man of his time, doing stuff that everyone living at the time agreed was right, and being already more honorable than most. He was willing to call off a pillage for the sake of a person who impressed him. Sadeas, on the other hand, had no redeeming qualities that we can discern. Still, I can see dalinar's point: he was an intelligent, resourceful man, and if he could have been swayed to the side of good, he would have been an invaluable resource. The only problem is the swaying part.

2

As you are going to see in coming flashbacks, Dalinar was worse than you think. He has changed quite a bit. I think Dalinar hoped that if he could change so could Sadeas. I think Dalinar did not consider everything it took to change him. As the book goes on and Dalinar thinks through his life, he might realize Sadeas was never going to change. That way when he realizes Adolin killed Sadeas he will not be angry with his son and allow him to escape. 

[Necessary Eagle]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

There is a balance. The orders are supposed to exist together. By themselves they are broken in the same way and prone to excesses that their own oaths allow. I would think the Skybreakers are proof enough that any order in isolation is not what it should be. 

So... like how Odium "bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context"?

[Calderis]

Just now, Necessary Eagle said:

So... like how Odium "bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context"?

Yes. Division of aspects of the Shards should behave no differently than division of aspects of Adonalsium 

[1stBondsmith]

17 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

You don't know much about the legal system in America at least.

Someone shoots a bullet into your house, you call the police. They will look for someone causing a public nuisance. They may not find them, but the crime will still be investigated.

They come back and shoot fifty bullets into your house and you recognize who it was, the police will be arresting them for manslaughter at the very least. So the next scenario would not happen.

If you shoot a man at your door is that legal, well that depends on the laws of the state you are in. However, if you think you aren't going to need a lawyer after you shoot someone at your front door you are very naive. 

I can see you missed my point entirely. I don't care what legal system I am in; when someone who has killed or attempted to kill before threatens to do so to my family again, that credible threat will illicit a deadly response from me. Government doesn't matter. The reason that Life is one of the inalienable rights is that government has no say in your attempt to keep it. They may impose consequences afterward, or investigate it for justice, but their law does not supersede my responsibility to protect my own life or the life of my family. They may put me in jail, but the should not. They may try to execute me for it, but then I am in the same circumstance as before, aren't I? I may have to weigh the consequence against the value of saving my family member, but I know where I fall on that one as well.

[+eveorjoy]

1 minute ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I can see you missed my point entirely. I don't care what legal system I am in; when someone who has killed or attempted to kill before threatens to do so to my family again, that credible threat will illicit a deadly response from me. Government doesn't matter. The reason that Life is one of the inalienable rights is that government has no say in your attempt to keep it. They may impose consequences afterward, or investigate it for justice, but their law does not supersede my responsibility to protect my own life or the life of my family. They may put me in jail, but the should not. They may try to execute me for it, but then I am in the same circumstance as before, aren't I? I may have to weigh the consequence against the value of saving my family member, but I know where I fall on that one as well.

I guess you didn't read my latest post yet where mention that I spoke to a lawyer who told me that Adolin would be found innocent of murder in our legal system, so much of what I said is based on wrong assumptions anyway.

It seems your argument is that when the system fails us vigilante justice is the only recourse. Maybe... I just think to kill to remove problem people can lead to other issues. At this point, even in the modern world, Adolin would be found innocent so it is hard to argue against his actions. 

Thus I admit I was wrong.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

As you are going to see in coming flashbacks, Dalinar was worse than you think. He has changed quite a bit. I think Dalinar hoped that if he could change so could Sadeas. I think Dalinar did not consider everything it took to change him. As the book goes on and Dalinar thinks through his life, he might realize Sadeas was never going to change. That way when he realizes Adolin killed Sadeas he will not be angry with his son and allow him to escape. 

Yes, I was told that already, and I am looking forward to those flashbacks (unlike the flashbacks of kaladin and shallan, I always found a chore to read those). I was just commenting what was relesed so far, which is the first flashback, and in it dalinar behaves no worse than any conqueror and better than most.

I have to say, reading the chapter was a shock for me too the first time, but it's actually a pretty realistic account of medieval warfare. Well, except for dalinar's feats of superhuman badassery; although it could have a correlation to the berserker.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Okay those who feel Adolin did the right thing you are going to love this. I spoke with a lawyer friend about Adolin's situation. He agreed with you. Even in our modern world, if someone were in Adolin's situation he would likely be found innocent for reasons of temporary insanity caused by extreme duress. So there you go. I can admit when I am wrong. 

 

Wait, I'm not sure what this mean. Temporary insanity is not something that can get people forgiven for murder. At best, they are absolved but they are also hospitalized to fix their mind issues - or at least they should be. I'm sure a jury would give plenty of mitigating circumstances to adolin, to the point where he may actually end up sentenced to nothing worse than a few months of "socially useful labor", but I doubt he'd be acquitted entirely. He'd either get a very reduced sentence because of mitigaating circumstances, or he'd get hospitalized for mental disease.

[1stBondsmith]

13 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

It seems your argument is that when the system fails us vigilante justice is the only recourse.

Actually, you have my belief backwards. I have the ultimate responsibility to protect me and my family, and if I can, the other innocents around me. A government is only created when enough people decide to work together to meet that same goal. It is always the primary role of any government, or all the rest of the functions do not matter. If the government cannot or will not protect me in the circumstance I am in, I must act. It is not vigilante or justice. That comes after he has succeeded in the killing. I am protecting, pure and simple.

Are you aware that 36 states have self defense laws protecting a person who is kills someone who "gives the perception of deadly threat" in their homes? They do not even have to be carrying a weapon or say they are a threat. If you feel threatened, you are legally covered for killing them in your home. ( I am not giving legal advice or stating which states so that people do not think I am encouraging them to break laws in their states). Every other state has a return of force when force is used against you defense. In what way could this be vigilante justice? How was Sadeas not a perceived, real, or imminent threat? Adolin was not removing a bother, nuisance, or difficulty, he was killing an active threat. No insanity, temporary or otherwise, no additional duress. Just protecting.

Edited September 1, 2017 by 1stBondsmith

[+eveorjoy]

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Wait, I'm not sure what this mean. Temporary insanity is not something that can get people forgiven for murder. At best, they are absolved but they are also hospitalized to fix their mind issues - or at least they should be. I'm sure a jury would give plenty of mitigating circumstances to adolin, to the point where he may actually end up sentenced to nothing worse than a few months of "socially useful labor", but I doubt he'd be acquitted entirely. He'd either get a very reduced sentence because of mitigaating circumstances, or he'd get hospitalized for mental disease.

Oh yes, he would hospitalize and should be. I think both he and Kaladin suffer from PSTD at the very least. However, most heroes from fantasy stories likely need some mental health care.

[+eveorjoy]

13 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Actually, you have my belief backwards. I have the ultimate responsibility to protect me and my family, and if I can, the other innocents around me. A government is only created when enough people decide to work together to meet that same goal. It is always the primary role of any government, or all the rest of the functions do not matter. If the government cannot or will not protect me in the circumstance I am in, I must act. It is not vigilante or justice. That comes after he has succeeded in the killing. I am protecting, pure and simple.

Sorry, not vigilante justice. Instead, you should be judge and jury if someone is out to get you and yours in your mind. I hope you are always right. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by eveorjoy
More personal than intended.

[1stBondsmith]

I would refer you to my edit above, but now I do not think you know what protecting means when force is involved. That may be our disconnect.

[+eveorjoy]

25 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Are you aware that 36 states have self defense laws protecting a person who is kills someone who "gives the perception of deadly threat" in their homes? They do not even have to be carrying a weapon or say they are a threat. If you feel threatened, you are legally covered for killing them in your home. ( I am not giving legal advice or stating which states so that people do not think I am encouraging them to break laws in their states). Every other state has a return of force when force is used against you defense. In what way could this be vigilante justice? How was Sadeas not a perceived, real, or imminent threat? Adolin was not removing a bother, nuisance, or difficulty, he was killing an active threat. No insanity, temporary or otherwise, no additional duress. Just protecting.

3

 

9 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I would refer you to my edit above, but now I do not think you know what protecting means when force is involved. That may be our disconnect.

Sigh...

I didn't see the edit before I replied. I agree that the law would protect Adolin and he would at worst spend some time in a hospital being evaluated nothing more. I think this argument isn't leading anywhere and I think we agree for the most part where Adolin is concerned. So I am just going to drop it now.

[maxal]

7 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Okay those who feel Adolin did the right thing you are going to love this. I spoke with a lawyer friend about Adolin's situation. He agreed with you. Even in our modern world, if someone were in Adolin's situation he would likely be found innocent for reasons of temporary insanity caused by extreme duress. So there you go. I can admit when I am wrong. 

However, I still think the event will break him so he can invest. I also think Alethi law is not as compassionate as American law. I think when the truth comes out, Dalinar won't blame him, but he might need to exile him. 

I guess we will see. 

Great initiative! I am glad to get the views of a real world lawyer even if modern law doesn't readily apply to Alethkar, I feel it gives us a wider perspective to evaluate the action other than "killing is wrong no matter the circumstances".

I personally feel too many readers underestimate the amount of stress, pressure and duress Adolin was put under when he ultimately cracked and killed Sadeas. American laws (and I would assume laws from similar countries have similar legislature) do have contingencies to evaluate crimes done under specific conditions as no, all crimes aren't equal and there are circumstances which can get someone guilty of charges to walk unpunished. 

In jurisprudence, the duress defense is one where unlawful threat and coercion is used on an individual to force him to act outside of his normal behavior. I do think it applies to Adolin. Sadeas war declaration and speech on how he was going to kill the king and Highprince Dalinar was unlawful: Adolin did state how threats were taken quite seriously in Alethkar. It was pure coercion done on a vulnerable young man presented in a way where the only possible outcome was murder.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the requirements to be met for this defense to be available:

1. The threat must be of serious bodily harm or death

The threat was immediate and it involved death. Sadeas promised he would kill Adolin's father and war his princedom. The threat doesn't have to be to oneself, but it has to be serious. Nobody can claim Sadeas was not serious: he was. He has the backstory to justify it, he has the means to carry on his threats and he stated how NOTHING would ever change his mind on it.

2. The threatened harm must be greater than the harm caused by the crime

This also applies as killing Sadeas did prevent Sadeas from killing more people out of collateral damage as he tried to take over Alethkar. Already, he killed 6000 soldiers in a failed attempt to reach his goal. He promised nothing less than civil war in between his princedom and Dalinar's. The human cost of letting Sadeas live was gigantic.

3. The threat must be immediate and inescapable

As stated within point one, the threat was immediate and yes despite statement of the contrary, it was inescapable. Sadeas stated he would carry on his threats. When Adolin challenged on him on why he was doing it, Sadeas confirmed he just had to. There was no doubt Sadeas would have kept on fighting Dalinar, there was no doubt he would have caused great harm if allowed to continue. There also were no other issues: Adolin had no means to deal with Sadeas. Dalinar showed us how he had no intention to deal with Sadeas: there were no options, despite argument of the opposite.

4. The defendant must have become involved in the situation through no fault of his own

Adolin did not provoke the encounter: he even tried to avoid it. He stumbled randomly on Sadeas and when he tried to walked away, Sadeas started talking/gloating to him. He did not purposefully put himself into a situation where he would need to challenge Sadeas. He said nothing provocative.

I say, after analyzing those requirements, Adolin definitely quality for the crime done duress defense and it would best not to underestimate the situation he was put under. While it is true modern requirements do not apply to Alethkar, I feel knowing defense do exists for those guilty of crime done under extraordinary circumstances does help putting things into better perspective. Adolin murdering Sadeas isn't merely a case of "murder is wrong", it is a case of intense pressure, coercion and abominable threats which let to actions Adolin would have never done had the circumstances been different. This is where many readers make false route in thinking Adolin would have killed Sadeas, no matter what: he wouldn't, not without this insane amount of provocation.

It is thus while Adolin's guilt is undeniable, while he did commit murder: modern day law allows for charges merely not being pressed, complete exoneration. Alethkar may not have those, but it is fair to assume someone will point how little other choice Adolin did have and how he was pushed beyond his breaking point by coercive actions very few people would have resisted to. 

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Oh yes, he would hospitalize and should be. I think both he and Kaladin suffer from PSTD at the very least. However, most heroes from fantasy stories likely need some mental health care.

Good point there

4 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

 

Are you aware that 36 states have self defense laws protecting a person who is kills someone who "gives the perception of deadly threat" in their homes? They do not even have to be carrying a weapon or say they are a threat. If you feel threatened, you are legally covered for killing them in your home.

That's because, if someone broke into your home, he certainly had unlawful intentions, and it is reasonable to assume they threaten you. I mean, the only reason someone would break into your home is to rob (or possibly rape), and while most burglars will flee when confronted by resistance, some will turn violent, and you have no way to tell which is which. So if someone broke into your home he is pretty much threatening you, by the very act of breaking into your home with unclear intentions. There is proof he was threatening you.

40 minutes ago, maxal said:

I say, after analyzing those requirements, Adolin definitely quality for the crime done duress defense and it would best not to underestimate the situation he was put under. While it is true modern requirements do not apply to Alethkar, I feel knowing defense do exists for those guilty of crime done under extraordinary circumstances does help putting things into better perspective. Adolin murdering Sadeas isn't merely a case of "murder is wrong", it is a case of intense pressure, coercion and abominable threats which let to actions Adolin would have never done had the circumstances been different. This is where many readers make false route in thinking Adolin would have killed Sadeas, no matter what: he wouldn't, not without this insane amount of provocation.

It is thus while Adolin's guilt is undeniable, while he did commit murder: modern day law allows for charges merely not being pressed, complete exoneration. Alethkar may not have those, but it is fair to assume someone will point how little other choice Adolin did have and how he was pushed beyond his breaking point by coercive actions very few people would have resisted to. 

This stands for our moral evaluation of Adolin, because we know all this stuff. However, an alethi tribunal will have a hard time accepting that. Where is proof that sadeas threatened adolin? the two were alone when the killing happened, and of course Adolin would claim whatever would get him a reduced sentence. Everybody knows sadeas betrayed dalinar at the tower, but can you pass that in a trial? Sadeas claimed that he was swarmed by overwhelming forces and he had to cut his losses and retreat, and Dalinar acknowledged it, publicly. An omniscent judge would be very light with adolin, but a real jury with the information an alethi jury has would not.

I wonder if Dalinar will buy into those arguments himself. It may even be that his next radiant oath will be related to adolin; something like "I will accept those that defy my autorithy, if they do it in good faith", where he forgives adolin for killing someone he would have wanted not killed.

[+eveorjoy]

20 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

This stands for our moral evaluation of Adolin, because we know all this stuff. However, an alethi tribunal will have a hard time accepting that. Where is proof that sadeas threatened adolin? the two were alone when the killing happened, and of course Adolin would claim whatever would get him a reduced sentence. Everybody knows sadeas betrayed dalinar at the tower, but can you pass that in a trial? Sadeas claimed that he was swarmed by overwhelming forces and he had to cut his losses and retreat, and Dalinar acknowledged it, publicly. An omniscent judge would be very light with adolin, but a real jury with the information an alethi jury has would not.

10

If the Roshar wasn't falling apart, I think they would get enough evidence to show Adolin felt threatened by Sadeas. This meeting in the hall is not the first time Sadeas approached and provoked Adolin. he did so before in front of witnesses. However, with things as crazy as they are and so many forces either distrusting or outright working against the Kholin house, evidence will be harder to find. However, if Adolin could get off that easily there would be no conflict. I think if Adolin's crime is discovered in this book, he will need to leave Urithru for one reason or another.

Quote

I wonder if Dalinar will buy into those arguments himself. It may even be that his next radiant oath will be related to adolin ; something like "I will accept those that defy my autorithy , if they do it in good faith", where he forgives adolin for killing someone he would have wanted not killed.

I don't think Dalinar will be as harsh on Adolin as everyone thinks he will be. At the most, he will worry his son is going down the same path he did. However, I think after talking it over with Kaladin, Shallan, and Navani he will come around. Still, until Adolin's act is discovered, Dalinar will be looking doggily for the killer and speaking ill of who ever did this. That will put even more pressure on Adolin. 

I just hope Kaladin won't be blamed for this in some way. People might assume he claimed to be going to rescue his parents when he really was fleeing from his crime. Though Kaladin being accused might be what prompts Adolin to come clean. At the moment, Kaladin is far more important to Roshar than Adolin and Adolin knows this. I just hope Kaladin left early enough to have an alibi.

[maxal]

5 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Oh yes, he would hospitalize and should be. I think both he and Kaladin suffer from PSTD at the very least. However, most heroes from fantasy stories likely need some mental health care.

Interesting. It may be the first time this is brought forward, but Adolin may have a mild case of PSTD following the tower incident. He later talks of the sharp terror which inhabited him when he found out they were trapped, he also cannot let it go, he often thinks back on the events, thinks of the men he had lost. While Dalinar has shown he does think about them too, in Oathbringer, he thinks mostly of the lost of military power they represented, not the human cost. Dalinar agrees life will be lost during war, Adolin agrees life could be lost during war, but he isn't dealing with it as well as his father. Dalinar did state one of Adolin's weaknesses was his tendency to befriend his men... Kaladin speaks of how he can't be Bridge 4's friend now he leads them and he is right.

This is just one of the reasons why I keep saying Adolin is not cut off to be a soldier.

46 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

This stands for our moral evaluation of Adolin, because we know all this stuff. However, an alethi tribunal will have a hard time accepting that. Where is proof that sadeas threatened adolin? the two were alone when the killing happened, and of course Adolin would claim whatever would get him a reduced sentence. Everybody knows sadeas betrayed dalinar at the tower, but can you pass that in a trial? Sadeas claimed that he was swarmed by overwhelming forces and he had to cut his losses and retreat, and Dalinar acknowledged it, publicly. An omniscent judge would be very light with adolin, but a real jury with the information an alethi jury has would not.

I wonder if Dalinar will buy into those arguments himself. It may even be that his next radiant oath will be related to adolin; something like "I will accept those that defy my autorithy, if they do it in good faith", where he forgives adolin for killing someone he would have wanted not killed.

Obviously, it means nothing in front of the Alethi court. I wrote the post mostly to expose how seeing the murder as "just a murder" and "a crime" to be punishable "by the maximum sentence because killing is bad", is perhaps too reductionist. We have to take in the circumstances if we are to pass judgment. This being said, I do agree the possibility of what passes as a court in Alethkar will have the same reasoning capacities. According to their own laws, Adolin's only chances are one of the following to happen:

1) Sadeas is trialed first, found guilty and stripped of his position as a Highprince thus making Adolin's action legit.

2) It is declare Sadeas has challenged Adolin and it was responded in kind, death being an acceptable outcome.

3) Dalinar actually refuses to prosecute Adolin and actually protects him: more unlikely.

My thought are Dalinar has a great deal lot of work to do before he can process what Adolin has done. His "steady" comment does illustrate it: Dalinar has never ever considered the possibility Adolin may crack, may fail, may not be up to the task. Ever. He won't even see it coming and when it does, I fear his reaction will be one of both anger and betrayal.

11 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I don't think Dalinar will be as harsh on Adolin as everyone thinks he will be. At the most, he will worry his son is going down the same path he did. However, I think after talking it over with Kaladin, Shallan, and Navani he will come around. Still, until Adolin's act is discovered, Dalinar will be looking doggily for the killer and speaking ill of who ever did this. That will put even more pressure on Adolin. 

I just hope Kaladin won't be blamed for this in some way. People might assume he claimed to be going to rescue his parents when he really was fleeing from his crime. Though Kaladin being accused might be what prompts Adolin to come clean. At the moment, Kaladin is far more important to Roshar than Adolin and Adolin knows this. I just hope Kaladin left early enough to have an alibi.

Dalinar is a hard one to pierce: I currently remain on my position he will be unbelievably hard on Adolin, but we'll see how the story unfolds. Right now, I see Adolin holding on to his secret for quite a while. He has never been able to admit weaknesses: admitting his killed Sadeas, putting himself into such a position of vulnerability will be so hard for him, I fear he won't do it until he cracks down completely. I currently foresee a shock moment where everything collapses around Adolin and he just... burst. It was one of the options I had for his future reactions: it was either him very publicly bursting out and losing it again or him feeling a great deal lot of guilt for betraying his father and confessing. So far, the story seems to have taken the first path.

I do agree Dalinar's open thoughts on how he will deal with the culprit once he is found will had a chull load of pressure onto Adolin's wavering shoulders.

I too hope Kaladin will not be blamed: I do not find it an interesting avenue to steer the story too. I also agree Kaladin is more important to Roshar than Adolin and this knowledge might play a role in Adolin's upcoming story arc.

[king of nowhere]

43 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

If the Roshar wasn't falling apart, I think they would get enough evidence to show Adolin felt threatened by Sadeas. This meeting in the hall is not the first time Sadeas approached and provoked Adolin. he did so before in front of witnesses. However, with things as crazy as they are and so many forces either distrusting or outright working against the Kholin house, evidence will be harder to find. However, if Adolin could get off that easily there would be no conflict. I think if Adolin's crime is discovered in this book, he will need to leave Urithru for one reason or another.

There is also a metastory problem with this: I don't see a trial arc where the heroes are desperately trying to bring in front of the court enough proof to demonstrate what is already well known to everyone. It just doesn't seem an enticing story, looking for witnesses that can testify that sadeas' army wasn't in bad shape after leaving the tower, painstakingly reconstructing all the provocations of sadeas on adolin, that kind of stuff.

Quote

I don't think Dalinar will be as harsh on Adolin as everyone thinks he will be. At the most, he will worry his son is going down the same path he did. However, I think after talking it over with Kaladin, Shallan, and Navani he will come around. Still, until Adolin's act is discovered, Dalinar will be looking doggily for the killer and speaking ill of who ever did this. That will put even more pressure on Adolin. 

I just hope Kaladin won't be blamed for this in some way. People might assume he claimed to be going to rescue his parents when he really was fleeing from his crime. Though Kaladin being accused might be what prompts Adolin to come clean. At the moment, Kaladin is far more important to Roshar than Adolin and Adolin knows this. I just hope Kaladin left early enough to have an alibi.

I think Dalinar will be very harsh at first, because he always put a lot of pressure on adolin without realizing it. Problem is, Adolin is so good at being a reliable support for Dalinar that Dalinar never realized how much Adolin is at risk of collapsing. So at first Dalinar will be shocked, as he always takes for granted that he can completely count on adolin. Then father and son will have a big showdown (hopefully immediately, possibly delayed if the plot requires it) where dalinar will realize how much he charged adolin with, and he will then become very supportive of his son. I can even see dalinar declaring that as adolin's commanding officer, he should take the blame. But anyway, I picture two phases: first very harsh, then very understanding

[+eveorjoy]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

I think Dalinar will be very harsh at first, because he always put a lot of pressure on adolin without realizing it. Problem is, Adolin is so good at being a reliable support for Dalinar that Dalinar never realized how much Adolin is at risk of collapsing. So at first Dalinar will be shocked, as he always takes for granted that he can completely count on adolin. Then father and son will have a big showdown (hopefully immediately, possibly delayed if the plot requires it) where dalinar will realize how much he charged adolin with, and he will then become very supportive of his son. I can even see dalinar declaring that as adolin's commanding officer, he should take the blame. But anyway, I picture two phases: first very harsh, then very understanding

7

Dalinar may be harsh at first, but I don't think he will stay angry for long. He will be sad and maybe hurt that Adolin wasn't what he thought he was, but Dalinar is a very loving father. I think after one possible blow up, he will try to work it out with Adolin. He might need to talk it over with Navani first and I do think Kaladin and Shallan would try to talk Dalinar down as well. The biggest problem is a faction led by Ialai and others will demand justice. So Dalinar will need to let Adolin get away to keep everyone united. it is possible Kaladin will get Adolin out and Adolin won't realize his father is behind the escape. He may go into hiding thinking his father is a lot angrier than he is, but if Dalinar held a grudge he would be a massive hypocrite.

No, he would not take the blame. Roshar needs Dalinar too much.

I agree with your two phases, but phase one will be very brief.

 

[maxal]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I think Dalinar will be very harsh at first, because he always put a lot of pressure on adolin without realizing it. Problem is, Adolin is so good at being a reliable support for Dalinar that Dalinar never realized how much Adolin is at risk of collapsing. So at first Dalinar will be shocked, as he always takes for granted that he can completely count on adolin. Then father and son will have a big showdown (hopefully immediately, possibly delayed if the plot requires it) where dalinar will realize how much he charged adolin with, and he will then become very supportive of his son. I can even see dalinar declaring that as adolin's commanding officer, he should take the blame. But anyway, I picture two phases: first very harsh, then very understanding

I pictured it happening similarly. I do think Dalinar does take Adolin for granted: the fact he refers to him as "steady" in chapter 3 does highlight it. Having to come in terms with the fact Adolin is near collapsing will be hard for Dalinar and the breaking of the expectations he has for his son will be brutal.

Let's all think on how badly Kaladin was affected upon seeing his every illusions being crushed in a painful ways. We all remember how he used to revere the lighteyes, how he used to think them honorable amazing being, how he yearned to see glorious lighteyes in action and how his dreams were destroyed, one by one. We all saw how hard it has been for Kaladin to move past it, how dealing with a reality so different than the one he had imagined was difficult.

Dalinar is just the same: he sees Adolin as steady, unmovable, imperturbable, impossible to break. He has been relying on him, heavily, despite his young age. He thinks of him as a better man: he may not have intended to, but he has put Adolin up to impossible standards, just as Kaladin had once put all lighteyes to impossible ones. When the truth gets known, I do think seeing his illusions being destroyed may harm Dalinar more than finding his son guilty of murder. The contrast in between what he has come to expect and what he'll get will be heart-breaking hard to bear which is why I do think Dalinar's initial reaction will be harsh, very harsh.

I however agree there will eventually be "a moment" where Dalinar will realize his bias. Then, I do agree he'll become more supportive and understanding, but this will take a lot of adjusting on both sides. While Dalinar is not ready to see Adolin as needing him, Adolin neither is not ready to admit he needs it: his entire character has been built around his reluctance to admit his fears, his desire to hide his weaknesses. The short excerpt featuring Adolin and horses do also highlight it: he was afraid of them, but he refused to let anyone know nor find out.

One of my favorite outcome is the one where Dalinar changing his attitude towards Adolin coincide with one of his oaths.

[asterion137]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Great initiative! I am glad to get the views of a real world lawyer even if modern law doesn't readily apply to Alethkar, I feel it gives us a wider perspective to evaluate the action other than "killing is wrong no matter the circumstances".

I personally feel too many readers underestimate the amount of stress, pressure and duress Adolin was put under when he ultimately cracked and killed Sadeas. American laws (and I would assume laws from similar countries have similar legislature) do have contingencies to evaluate crimes done under specific conditions as no, all crimes aren't equal and there are circumstances which can get someone guilty of charges to walk unpunished. 

In jurisprudence, the duress defense is one where unlawful threat and coercion is used on an individual to force him to act outside of his normal behavior. I do think it applies to Adolin. Sadeas war declaration and speech on how he was going to kill the king and Highprince Dalinar was unlawful: Adolin did state how threats were taken quite seriously in Alethkar. It was pure coercion done on a vulnerable young man presented in a way where the only possible outcome was murder.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the requirements to be met for this defense to be available:

1. The threat must be of serious bodily harm or death

The threat was immediate and it involved death. Sadeas promised he would kill Adolin's father and war his princedom. The threat doesn't have to be to oneself, but it has to be serious. Nobody can claim Sadeas was not serious: he was. He has the backstory to justify it, he has the means to carry on his threats and he stated how NOTHING would ever change his mind on it.

2. The threatened harm must be greater than the harm caused by the crime

This also applies as killing Sadeas did prevent Sadeas from killing more people out of collateral damage as he tried to take over Alethkar. Already, he killed 6000 soldiers in a failed attempt to reach his goal. He promised nothing less than civil war in between his princedom and Dalinar's. The human cost of letting Sadeas live was gigantic.

3. The threat must be immediate and inescapable

As stated within point one, the threat was immediate and yes despite statement of the contrary, it was inescapable. Sadeas stated he would carry on his threats. When Adolin challenged on him on why he was doing it, Sadeas confirmed he just had to. There was no doubt Sadeas would have kept on fighting Dalinar, there was no doubt he would have caused great harm if allowed to continue. There also were no other issues: Adolin had no means to deal with Sadeas. Dalinar showed us how he had no intention to deal with Sadeas: there were no options, despite argument of the opposite.

4. The defendant must have become involved in the situation through no fault of his own

Adolin did not provoke the encounter: he even tried to avoid it. He stumbled randomly on Sadeas and when he tried to walked away, Sadeas started talking/gloating to him. He did not purposefully put himself into a situation where he would need to challenge Sadeas. He said nothing provocative.

I say, after analyzing those requirements, Adolin definitely quality for the crime done duress defense and it would best not to underestimate the situation he was put under. While it is true modern requirements do not apply to Alethkar, I feel knowing defense do exists for those guilty of crime done under extraordinary circumstances does help putting things into better perspective. Adolin murdering Sadeas isn't merely a case of "murder is wrong", it is a case of intense pressure, coercion and abominable threats which let to actions Adolin would have never done had the circumstances been different. This is where many readers make false route in thinking Adolin would have killed Sadeas, no matter what: he wouldn't, not without this insane amount of provocation.

It is thus while Adolin's guilt is undeniable, while he did commit murder: modern day law allows for charges merely not being pressed, complete exoneration. Alethkar may not have those, but it is fair to assume someone will point how little other choice Adolin did have and how he was pushed beyond his breaking point by coercive actions very few people would have resisted to. 

The threat wasn't immediate; it was the promise of future action. There was no way of knowing whether it was inescapable either, but it certainly wasn't immediate.

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

The threat wasn't immediate; it was the promise of future action. There was no way of knowing whether it was inescapable either, but it certainly wasn't immediate.

I think immediate and inescapable mean the person believes the threats will be carried on and there is no doubt Adolin believed Sadeas would carry on his threats, but it may it does not apply. It isn't a perfect defense: I wrote the post more to put the murder into a different perspective then "murder is evil, Adolin must burn in hell for his actions as nothing ever justify murder". I do think, within this specific case, murder was justified, but we'll see what our characters will think.

[Calderis]

12 hours ago, maxal said:

I think immediate and inescapable mean the person believes the threats will be carried on and there is no doubt Adolin believed Sadeas would carry on his threats, but it may it does not apply.

I agree completely with your reasoning, and the moral implications. From a legal perspective though, the terms "immediate" and "inescapable" in conjunction mean that that defense is only applicable if the crime committed was done to avoid/prevent harm at that moment. If the threat, as with Sadeas, is for any time in the future, it does not apply. 

I don't care that the action wasn't legal. 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Calderis

[djammmer]

19 hours ago, hypatia said:

"I was always a tyrant..."

That's exactly why I don't think he is really aware of his past.

With only the first flashback we see him as a useful weapon of a tyrant, he himself isn't fighting for the goal of Gavilar, not even a goal of his own.

He's fighting to get his 'fix', for a new dose of the Thrill.

And not to feel better but to feel anything at all. Without the Thrill he is barely able to function as a human being - be it good or bad.

He needs it, because of a 'pit' inside of him, a huge crack, has to be filled with something, otherwise he is a shell of a man.

 

You could almost say he was "broken"... Which as we know is required to attract a spen and become an KR.  We already saw how Kalidan and Shallan became broken in thier youth.  We could kind of see Dalinar broken a little in SA1&2 (I.e. His wife), but just barely.  By then he was mature, moral and healthy.  But SA3 flashbacks really really shows how bad he was broken.  Now I'm just curious how he got that way.

We see Renarin's extremely broken... So makes sense he becomes a KR.  Adolin is actually family emotionally health (up to the Sadeus incident).  Probably why he's shown no Porto KR behavior.

Now I'm extremely curious what happened to Jasnah... And it had to happen really early, as she was already showing KR behaviors on the night her dad was killed.

[maxal]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

I agree completely with your reasoning, and the moral implications. From a legal perspective though, the terms "immediate" and "inescapable" in conjunction mean that that defense is only applicable if the crime committed was done to avoid/prevent harm at that moment. If the threat, as with Sadeas, is for any time in the future, it does not apply. 

I don't care that the action was legal. 

 

Actually, I took it on information I found over the Internet on how and when the duress clause may be used into a process  That first sentence came directly from it and it is basically what it says: the person has to be convinced the threat will be carried on. No time frame was being given. We could easily imagined a situation where a young man kills a known terrorist (having American citizenship) after being told the terrorist would kill his family and keep on launching attacks, knowing he has already done so. 

Laws are different within all countries, I am not a lawyer, but from what I gathered, the defense would be harder to apply in Canada, but in Canada Adolin could plead temporary mental illness due to extraordinary situations. People have been found non-guilty of murder with this defense, though they had much less than a case than Adolin had. If we read back the scene, when Adolin kills Sadeas, it really feels as if he truly disconnected from himself. A good lawyer would use it. Also, seeing how much of a despicable human being Sadeas was, Adolin would readily get the public and the media support.

All in all, Adolin does have a case for himself and my purpose was to highlight just how the circumstances cannot be ignored. He did not just killed Sadeas, he killed Sadeas after insane provocation, duress, the promise the man would destroy everyone he loves and has sworn to protect and there was nothing he could do to stop him save from killing him. Too many people forget just how desperate Adolin was into the whole Sadeas situation: he is basically the only one trying to keep this threat away. Dalinar is not listening. The king is powerless. All which was left was young Adolin and his knife.

I am always speechless to see readers readily defend Jasnah or Shallan, but downright say what Adolin did is unforgivable.