[OB] SO GLAD HE'S DEAD

[Toaster Retribution]

7 minutes ago, maxal said:

I am always speechless to see readers readily defend Jasnah or Shallan, but downright say what Adolin did is unforgivable. 

I think it has to do with buildup. Adolin murdered Sadeas in the last chapter in WoR in a rather cold-blooded fashion. In this same chapter, the four Radiants gather for a rather hopeful moment. I think the contrast between that and Adolins darker scenes, which ends with him cleaning his tracks and leaving Sadeas corpse behind made people see it in a different light than actions comitted by Jasnah or Shallan. 

[FiveLate]

I am just amazed none of his troops or Bridgemen Fragged Sadeas long before.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Lest we forget Adolin actually fought a war for survival virtually days before so not only had he been put through physical torment as displayed by his injuries, but psychological as well given all of the death and destruction raging around at time. Being a fair bit rattled at someone who not only has betrayed and abandoned you and your loved ones on several previous occasions, but to then actually threaten to continue to do so with open promises on their lives and reputations for no logical reasons other than greed and spite, I wouldn't call it murder that's for sure. Sadeas knew the games he was playing, he just chose the wrong time to make his move.

Alethi culture is different to our own, where Daes Dae'mar is rife due to being actively encouraged providing you're smart enough to get away with it and cover your tracks. Sadeas was practically a hydra that would have spiralled out of control had he not been neutralised or pacified. As for Jasnah and Shallan, I support their actions equally so

Edited September 2, 2017 by ParadoxicalZen

[+eveorjoy]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think it has to do with buildup. Adolin murdered Sadeas in the last chapter in WoR in a rather cold-blooded fashion. In this same chapter, the four Radiants gather for a rather hopeful moment. I think the contrast between that and Adolins darker scenes, which ends with him cleaning his tracks and leaving Sadeas corpse behind made people see it in a different light than actions comitted by Jasnah or Shallan. 

I never thought of Adolin killing Sadeas as cold-blooded. A cold-blooded murder is committed without emotion in a business like manner. The only cold-blooded killer we have seen in the books so far is Jasnah. She killed four men and then chatted about philosophy calmly with Shallan afterward, using the event as an object lesson. Even if you agree with her putting herself in harm's way so she could kill in defense is was still a cold-blooded act. 

Adolin, on the other hand, was emotionally wrung out when he killed Sadeas and in shock when it was over. 

I also don't see Shallan's act as any worse than Adolin's. Everytime she killed she was protecting herself or her brothers in that moment. In fact, each time she killed she or her brothers were in more immediate danger than Adolin and Dalinar were of Sadeas when Adolin killed him. 

[signspace13]

1 hour ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

Lest we forget Adolin actually fought a war for survival virtually days before so not only had he been put through physical torment as displayed by his injuries, but psychological as well given all of the death and destruction raging around at time. Being a fair bit rattled at someone who not only has betrayed and abandoned you and your loved ones on several previous occasions, but to then actually threaten to continue to do so with open promises on their lives and reputations for no logical reasons other than greed and spite, I wouldn't call it murder that's for sure. Sadeas knew the games he was playing, he just chose the wrong time to make his move.

Alethi culture is different to our own, where Daes Dae'mar is rife due to being actively encouraged providing you're smart enough to get away with it and cover your tracks. Sadeas was practically a hydra that would have spiralled out of control had he not been neutralised or pacified. As for Jasnah and Shallan, I support their actions equally so

Couldn't agree with that statement more, honestly the whole situation of Sadeas's death could have been prevented by Sadeas himself, not that that is justification for killing him. But what on earth made Sadeas think it was a good Idea to provoke a younger, stronger, more skilled, and emotionally strained enemy Alone on unfamiliar territory? if you ask me that action is basically asking to be murdered and left in a deserted hallway.

[WhiteLeeopard]

One interesting point that I don't remember seing, is that Alethi law may be pointless for this case. They were in Urithiru, the one place where we can be almost certain the only laws that applied were the laws of the KR. That may not be the case at that point, but it could be enough for a debate. An option for the future would be eventually declaring Urithiru under KR law, and find out about Adolin afterwards. No idea whether that would make things better or worse though. Although the idea that the person with more "right" to judge Adolin is Szeth cracks me up. 

[+eveorjoy]

13 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

One interesting point that I don't remember seing, is that Alethi law may be pointless for this case. They were in Urithiru, the one place where we can be almost certain the only laws that applied were the laws of the KR. That may not be the case at that point, but it could be enough for a debate. An option for the future would be eventually declaring Urithiru under KR law, and find out about Adolin afterwards. No idea whether that would make things better or worse though. Although the idea that the person with more "right" to judge Adolin is Szeth cracks me up. 

I think Dalinar will run Urithru under Alethi law until he learns what KR law would be.

Alethi law is so crazy. Had Adolin killed Sadeas coldly in an arena no one would have batted an eye at it. On the other hand it is clear why Bridge Four didn't try offing Sadeas. Look what happened to Kaladin for just insulting a Lighteyes and the only reason he wasn't punished more harshly was Dalinar intervening. 

[maxal]

6 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

Lest we forget Adolin actually fought a war for survival virtually days before so not only had he been put through physical torment as displayed by his injuries, but psychological as well given all of the death and destruction raging around at time. Being a fair bit rattled at someone who not only has betrayed and abandoned you and your loved ones on several previous occasions, but to then actually threaten to continue to do so with open promises on their lives and reputations for no logical reasons other than greed and spite, I wouldn't call it murder that's for sure. Sadeas knew the games he was playing, he just chose the wrong time to make his move.

Alethi culture is different to our own, where Daes Dae'mar is rife due to being actively encouraged providing you're smart enough to get away with it and cover your tracks. Sadeas was practically a hydra that would have spiralled out of control had he not been neutralised or pacified. As for Jasnah and Shallan, I support their actions equally so

Not to forget Adolin actually saw his father sent to his death, he thought he was dead and then, he knelled helpless on the ground waiting for his own death. It isn't even Adolin stopped fighting, he just didn't have the strength to keep on fighting: that's how far he was pushed during the battle. Adding to this being forced to move into a strange mysterious city while finding out his girlfriend is a Radiant and now what? Truth is Adolin hasn't been getting a break for a long time: his father's statement does imply Dalinar doesn't think Adolin needs to rest or time to cope.

Still, it was murder, though it was an excusable justifiable murder, not one which ought to be heavily punished.

4 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Adolin, on the other hand, was emotionally wrung out when he killed Sadeas and in shock when it was over. 

And is in denial when we see him in Oathbringer. He currently is unable to cope.

4 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

I think Dalinar will run Urithru under Alethi law until he learns what KR law would be.

Alethi law is so crazy. Had Adolin killed Sadeas coldly in an arena no one would have batted an eye at it. On the other hand it is clear why Bridge Four didn't try offing Sadeas. Look what happened to Kaladin for just insulting a Lighteyes and the only reason he wasn't punished more harshly was Dalinar intervening. 

I wonder if Bridge 4 will have a role to play into the denouement....

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, signspace13 said:

Couldn't agree with that statement more, honestly the whole situation of Sadeas's death could have been prevented by Sadeas himself, not that that is justification for killing him. But what on earth made Sadeas think it was a good Idea to provoke a younger, stronger, more skilled, and emotionally strained enemy Alone on unfamiliar territory? if you ask me that action is basically asking to be murdered and left in a deserted hallway.

He wanted to stress adolin to the breaking point, beause that would weaken the whole kholin family. He didn't anticipate that adolin's first action as an insane man would be so unpleasant to him

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

Not to forget Adolin actually saw his father sent to his death, he thought he was dead and then, he knelled helpless on the ground waiting for his own death. It isn't even Adolin stopped fighting, he just didn't have the strength to keep on fighting: that's how far he was pushed during the battle. Adding to this being forced to move into a strange mysterious city while finding out his girlfriend is a Radiant and now what? Truth is Adolin hasn't been getting a break for a long time: his father's statement does imply Dalinar doesn't think Adolin needs to rest or time to cope.

Still, it was murder, though it was an excusable justifiable murder, not one which ought to be heavily punished.

And is in denial when we see him in Oathbringer. He currently is unable to cope.

I wonder if Bridge 4 will have a role to play into the denouement....

It makes me wonder on the account of being broken to bond a spren, adolin is broken in a very different way from kaladin and shallan. K&S are truly broken and will bear scars for the rest of their lives, even if they both recovered and managed to function well enough. But no matter how much they recover, they will never recover fully. Adolin, on the other hand, isn't really broken. He is under a lot of stress and pressure, but with some vacation  and some less responsibility he'd be back to being fine. Is that enough to become a KR? Or adolin will need to become more broken for that? Oh, well, I guess he will become more broken anyway just for sstory reasons.

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

He wanted to stress adolin to the breaking point, beause that would weaken the whole kholin family. He didn't anticipate that adolin's first action as an insane man would be so unpleasant to him

It makes me wonder on the account of being broken to bond a spren, adolin is broken in a very different way from kaladin and shallan. K&S are truly broken and will bear scars for the rest of their lives, even if they both recovered and managed to function well enough. But no matter how much they recover, they will never recover fully. Adolin, on the other hand, isn't really broken. He is under a lot of stress and pressure, but with some vacation  and some less responsibility he'd be back to being fine. Is that enough to become a KR? Or adolin will need to become more broken for that? Oh, well, I guess he will become more broken anyway just for sstory reasons.

I can see Adolin develop anxiety and stress related issues: once you have, you usually remain more vulnerable to them for the rest of your life. Over-working himself and refusing to be alone, to have nothing to do could also lead to anxiety relate ailments such as insomnia, mental breakdown, burnout and such. I wouldn't say Adolin would have an easier time recovering from those than our knights had to recover from their hardships.

[signspace13]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

He wanted to stress adolin to the breaking point, beause that would weaken the whole kholin family. He didn't anticipate that adolin's first action as an insane man would be so unpleasant to him

It makes me wonder on the account of being broken to bond a spren, adolin is broken in a very different way from kaladin and shallan. K&S are truly broken and will bear scars for the rest of their lives, even if they both recovered and managed to function well enough. But no matter how much they recover, they will never recover fully. Adolin, on the other hand, isn't really broken. He is under a lot of stress and pressure, but with some vacation  and some less responsibility he'd be back to being fine. Is that enough to become a KR? Or adolin will need to become more broken for that? Oh, well, I guess he will become more broken anyway just for sstory reasons.

Even if that was his goal he the whole situation still feels poorly considered to me, as I said, they were alone and Adolin is in an obvious position of power in this situation, so how stupid do you have to to be be to provoke someone in that situation?

The discussion of how broken one needs to be to be a KR is kind of an act of futility, as we have to few examples to go by. Kaladin and Shallan's are people who in our society would likely be under serious mental care, especially Shallan, now it is this brokeness in them that allows them to infuse, but are they really a good example to set as a baseline? I see them as the extraordinary potential radiants, the kind that requires some serious effort and reflection to say each ideal but are that much more excellent at the end for that effort. I do not think that Every Radiant suffered in life as much as they have, so it isn't really worth disqualifying potential radiants because they 'aren't broken enough' they are still growing and we do not have a good example of exactly how mentally ill they need to be to be considered broken.

Edited September 2, 2017 by signspace13

[Emerald101]

Keep in mind that it isn't necessarily "mental illness" which leads to stormlight being able to enter a surgebinder. The requirement is "cracks in the soul" i.e. the spiritweb. Clearly emotional trauma is sufficient to create those cracks, but their may be other methods that we aren't aware of, which don't lead to mental illness, or it could easily be possible that cracks can occur via emotional trauma without any subsequent mental illness whatsoever. IMO the correlation between mental illness and spiritual fissures is illusory, simply both caused by the same thing. 

[Calderis]

Yeah. Mental illness may be a viable way of "snapping, but is definitely not synonymous. 

For example. 

Quote

Oversleep

Is it possible to Soothe/Riot so hard that the person Snaps due to extreme emotions caused by emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

I hadn't considered, but yes, that should work.

There's another I can't find at the moment that says if you experienced happiness at an extreme enough level you could snap. 

It's not about illness or trauma. It's extremely intense emotion. It's just because extremes in negative emotions are so much more common that it appears the way it does. 

[+eveorjoy]

It does not always have to be emotional trauma. The nobility in Mistborn beat their children to find the mistings and mistborn among them. 

Mistborn Spoiler 

Spoiler

Vin was snapped by a harsh childbirth. I doubt a newborn has enough emotional comprehension for emotional trauma. So some can invest after physical trauma. 

Also, we assume it takes the level of pain Kaladin and Shallan endured to become a KR. However, both Kaladin and Shallan had cracked enough to invest before some of the worst events in their lives. Kaladin had already attracted Syl before he was made a slave. As for Shallan, we don't know what cracked her. It was her status as a new Radiant than caused her mother to turn on her and eventally destroy her family. 

I think what Adolin is going through now and what he went through just before he killed Sadeas will be more than enough to allow him to invest. Now he just needs to attract a spren. It would be awesome if that could be his current sword, but from what we have learned of dead spren that is likely impossible. 

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I think what Adolin is going through now and what he went through just before he killed Sadeas will be more than enough to allow him to invest. Now he just needs to attract a spren. It would be awesome if that could be his current sword, but from what we have learned of dead spren that is likely impossible. 

It is not impossible, just extraordinarily hard. Something came to my attention today: back in Edgedancer, Wyndle complained on how he did not want to become a Shardblade as he did not want to be used to kill or stab anyone. It made me wonder if other Edgedancer sprens would share similar thoughts... and it made me glad Adolin did not use his Blade to kill Sadeas. He has used it to duel, he has used it to fight Parshendis which he never really was as "beings" more as "monsters who killed his uncle". When he starts to see them as "beings", he stops killing them. He presumably never killed anyone, outside the battlefield, with this Blade: is this going to play a role into his future?

I personally do not like the idea of Adolin attracting a "random spren". I think too much has been put into his Blade already, it would be disappointed to read him casually get rid of him as other proto-Radiants have done, to ditch it in disgust as they all have done. This isn't Adolin. It does not fit.

This being said, I do think the trauma Adolin is currently going through is more than enough. He has been under a lot of pressure: just because he hasn't developed depression nor disassociation, just because he wasn't born with a disability or just because nobody he loves was ever killed (apparently mother does not count) does not mean he isn't cracking. I thought Oathbringer, so far, has shown us a very edgy Adolin, one who will crack: it is only a matter of time.  

[Calderis]

I think it is completely emotional. Physical beatings create intense feelings. Just because an infant doesn't understand emotions doesn't mean it doesn't have them.

Show me an instance where physical trauma isn't accompanied by an emotional response and I might believe physical trauma. 

I think it far more likely though that without an emotional response, the physical trauma would leave them unchanged. 

I think a purely physical phenomenon wouldn't impact the spiritweb the way an emotional response would. 

[+eveorjoy]

27 minutes ago, maxal said:

This being said, I do think the trauma Adolin is currently going through is more than enough. He has been under a lot of pressure: just because he hasn't developed depression nor disassociation, just because he wasn't born with a disability or just because nobody he loves was ever killed (apparently mother does not count) does not mean he isn't cracking. I thought Oathbringer, so far, has shown us a very edgy Adolin, one who will crack: it is only a matter of time.  

 

If the death of a loved one was enough most of Roshar would be full of Radiants. It is how the death happens and how it affects the proto-radiant that makes the difference. Had Tien died of an illness at home peacefully I doubt Kaladin would be able to invest now. It's the fact that Tien was sent to die, promises to keep him safe made by Kaladin and others were broken, Tien was placed by his commanding officer in the front line as fodder, and that Kaladin watched it happen then held the body until it went cold, all those facts together is what cracked Kaladin.

19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think it is completely emotional. Physical beatings create intense feelings. Just because an infant doesn't understand emotions doesn't mean it doesn't have them.

Show me an instance where physical trauma isn't accompanied by an emotional response and I might believe physical trauma. 

I think it far more likely though that without an emotional response, the physical trauma would leave them unchanged. 

I think a purely physical phenomenon wouldn't impact the spiritweb the way an emotional response would. 

Maybe. Babies feel awful pain but give them something sweet and they are over it quickly. Often nurses in newborn intensive care units give their baby patients only some sugar water to suck on during procedures that are painful for adults. Physical trauma will often halt emotional attacks by having physical pain pull the person away from the intensive emotional feeling. This is why people with emotional issues sometimes turn to cutting themselves. I think pain if it is intense enough could crack the soul as well without leaving emotional damage. Not everyone who is mugged experiences PTSD, but I think the pain in the event itself could still crack the soul even if the individual is able to cope with what happened later. Of course, this might be a question to ask Brandon directly. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by eveorjoy

[physicskid]

My thoughts on Sadeas death. Warning Black/Cynical humor.

https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2007-07-06

Usually, I wouldn't approve of vigilantism but I don't think what Adolin did qualifies. Vigilantism is the crime of denial of due process and Alethkar doesn't have due process. Arguably you can consider Elhokar negligent for not creating a system for administering justice to the powerful but the situation is complicated. In any event you can't be ethically liable for subverting a justice system that doesn't exist. 

 

[FiveLate]

On 9/5/2017 at 11:33 AM, physicskid said:

My thoughts on Sadeas death. Warning Black/Cynical humor.

https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2007-07-06

Usually, I wouldn't approve of vigilantism but I don't think what Adolin did qualifies. Vigilantism is the crime of denial of due process and Alethkar doesn't have due process. Arguably you can consider Elhokar negligent for not creating a system for administering justice to the powerful but the situation is complicated. In any event you can't be ethically liable for subverting a justice system that doesn't exist. 

 

Nice Schlock reference ... now we just need a Sluggly Freelance link.

[physicskid]

Schlock is great. Always has your green blob of "Adorable sociopathy"

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

Quote

“I’ll have your throat in my hands, Sadeas,” Adolin hissed. “I’ll squeeze and squeeze, then I’ll sink my dagger into your gut and twist. A quick death is too good for you.”

Hihihihhih. Details a tiny bit off, but not by much.

At the highprince meeting when Shallan arrives...you can't say Sadeas didn't have plenty of time to reverse course.

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

On 8/30/2017 at 11:50 AM, Amended said:

Dalinar is no longer the person he was, at all. From Gavilar's assassination to WoK he spent so time rehauling himself to live up to Gavilar's final words that I doubt he thought too much about his past, and during WoK he made peace with his past in regards to how it led him to who he now is. He'll regret the actions of his past, sure, but he's learned from it, moved on, and is trying to save the world, which certainly a good way to say sorry for actions of the past.

I think many people forget with all of the Moses parallels that Dalinar has that Moses was an Egyptian prince and warlord for a long time before his turn as a prophet, with all the implications and abuses that the position carried.

It totally never occurred to me to compare Dalinar to Moses. I think that's a great parallel. Have an upvote.

[MistLord]

On 06/09/2017 at 4:33 AM, physicskid said:

Vigilantism is the crime of denial of due process and Alethkar doesn't have due process. Arguably you can consider Elhokar negligent for not creating a system for administering justice to the powerful but the situation is complicated. In any event you can't be ethically liable for subverting a justice system that doesn't exist. 

A good point, especially given that we have a WoB that the Skybreakers (and High Spren) wouldn't like Adolin's actions.