[OB] Oathbringer Prologue now on Tor.com

[Pagerunner]

2 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

There are many small new clues and riddles, like Venli has been more active and involved for longer than previously known. But the one thing that has me really curious is that Gavilar acts and responds to Eshonai, almost as if he can hear the rhythms. 

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An excellent observation. Eshonai thinks she almost hears him speaking to the rhythms further below:

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“I thought you’d be pleased to hear that we are allies in seeking the return of your gods,” Gavilar said. She could almost hear the Rhythm of Reprimand to his dead words.

 

[dendrophobe]

I'm confused by this part. 

Spoiler

Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms? The humans did so much with their limitations!

From Words of Radiance, we see that the Parshendi only learned to capture spren from humans. From Eshonai's reaction here, it seems like this scene in the prologue is where they learn that it's possible.

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The listeners had learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans, then had figured out the process on their own. A captive spren made the transformation much more reliable. Before, there had always been an element of chance.

So is this confirmation that Parshendi have gemhearts, and bring the spren into them to transform? She wouldn't be so surprised if they had already learned to trap spren in gemstones themselves and take those spren into the storm like we see in Words of Radiance. But if that's not it, what could the humans be mimicking? I think she must be referring to the transformation process itself, where the Parshendi take spren into their gemhearts, similar to Chasmfiends.

Edited August 22, 2017 by dendrophobe
Fixed quote

[Overlord Jebus]

10 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

From Words of Radiance, we see that the Parshendi only learned to capture spren from humans. From Eshonai's reaction here, it seems like this scene in the prologue is where they learn that it's possible.

They learnt about capturing spren en masse for transformation. Not sure how it worked before (Maybe Stormfather just read their intent and provided a Spren for them).

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, ccstat said:

Good thought on Adrotagia. I agree that she's the best option at this point.

As mentioned by @Extesian, we have confirmation of Venli's involvement.

I'm wondering about that voice. My first suspicion was that Venli was already wearing an old form at that point and was manipulating things, but that doesn't actually make sense. If any of the Unmade did know of Gavilar's idiotic plan, I presume they would have been fully on board. Whoever was pulling strings (most likely the Heralds, given the Jasnah prologue) either knew about the Sons of Honor and wanted to stop the disaster they were planning, or had other goals entirely. (The conspiracist in me wants to point at Taravangian and say he was betraying Gavilar to further his own goals, but that idea has way too many holes in it, primarily the timing of the Diagram.) The Heralds are also more likely than anyone else to have access to and understanding of the Rhythms.

 

On this, I think the voice may have been Cultivation. We know the Listeners are not 'originally' of Cultivation (implying they are now), and it makes far more sense for Cultivation to stop Gavilar than Odium. But a Herald isn't a bad idea. 

I'll have to think on the rest of your insights after I sleep, especially the idea that Melishi's solution is a different thing (or that Gavilar is just wrong). I certainly assumed they were the same but you've given me pause. 

Oh and on the point just raised, I think that's confirmation they have gemhearts.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Extesian

[dendrophobe]

1 minute ago, overlordjebus said:

They learnt about capturing spren en masse for transformation. Not sure how it worked before (Maybe Stormfather just read their intent and provided a Spren for them).

It says in WoR (Page 198 of Kindle). 

Quote

She hated trapping them. The right way was to go into the highstorm with the proper attitude, singing the proper song to attract the proper spren. You bonded it in the fury of the raging storm and were reborn with a new body. People had been doing this from the arrival of the first winds.

The listeners had learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans, then had figured out the process on their own. A captive spren made the transformation much more reliable. Before, there had always been an element of chance. You could go into the storm wanting to become a soldier, and come out a mate instead.

 

[StormblessDave]

Gavilar seemed so different from the Dalinar flashback, a lot more lifeless and dead.
 Another new thing was Venli with Klade and the guiding voices, hmm ring any bells? *cough* Ruin *cough*

 

[dendrophobe]

3 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Gavilar seemed so different from the Dalinar flashback, a lot more lifeless and dead.
 Another new thing was Venli with Klade and the guiding voices, hmm ring any bells? *cough* Ruin *cough*

 

They said that the voice was in the Rhythm, which seems at least somewhat different. Since they have to attune the Rhythms, rather than having them be omnipresent. So I would think that if Klade didn't want to hear the voice, he wouldn't have to, and could just stop attuning whatever Rhythm that was.

[Toaster Retribution]

4 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

The one female as Adrotegia makes sense. The other two an unknown officer, and perhaps his wife. I am having difficulty with thinking it is Restares being described as an officer. That description would also eliminate any of the high princes. 

 

Actually, it makes sense. The Alethi are warriors, and Restares is presumably Alethi. We also see how fighting-focused Amaram is, so it wouldn´t surprise me if being a warrior is big among the Sons of Honor. And also, the highprinces were good soldiers once, as Dalinar points out in WoR, so the officer description doesn´t eliminate them. That said, I doubt it is one of them, unless Sadeas was a secret Son of Honor, which seems unlikely. 

I am with @Extesian about the other officer being Restares, although another (unlikely) option would be Graves, who we know is a warrior. That said, he might be too young. Adrotagia seems likely for one of the women. Restares wife is probably the most likely candidate for the other right now, but that is mostly because there aren´t many other fitting female characters. The only one I can think of is Aesudan. It has been suggested that she could be Restares daughter, and in that case, it might be her. Or:

Crackpot theory: the other female is Dalinars wife. That would be a game changer. 

[Pagerunner]

I said a bunch of this in the thread about the prologue reading, but I'll restate it here: the sphere holds Voidlight, Odium's Investiture, not an Unmade.

The Unmade are the Listener gods, and the 'king of gods' is obviously Odium himself. A dark light associated with Odium is quite an obvious parallel to Stormlight and Honor. It even draws inward, while Stormlight dissipates out, which would explain why the sphere can hold this Voidlight perpetually.

I don't believe the idea that it holds an Unmade is tenable. It would require this sphere to not be a sphere, since they don't trap spren in spheres; but instead be a spherically cut gemstone. (Remember, on Roshar a sphere is a very particular thing - a spherical piece of glass with a piece of gemstone inside it.) Eshonai is our third reference (after Szeth, and one of his master's stories) to it being a sphere. Especially Eshonai, who had just been introduced to the concept of spheres, refers to it as such. It's not impossible for it to be a gemstone; but the idea does not flow naturally from the text, it is required from the Unmade interpretation. And it is also inconsistent with other depictions of trapped Voidspren - like all fabrials, you can see the spren moving inside the gemstone (evidenced with Venli's stormspren).

And Gavilar's discussion of trapping spren doesn't point to the Unmade either. He says humans figured out how to trap a spren. He says it is possible to trap a god. (Let's quickly note that the Unmade are not trapped in the present day, and are active on Roshar and on Braize, although a lot can change in six years.) But he does not say the humans imprisoned a god. He says they imprisoned an "ancient, crucial spren." The Diagram refers to the Listeners as the Ancient Ones; I think, like the Listeners, this spren predates the Shattering of Adonalsium.

It's not just that the parshmen can't take Voidforms. They can't take any forms, even the ones that aren't of Odium that they could take in the days before the Voidbringers entered their songs. To stop something that predates Odium, they would need to imprison a spren that predates him, as well. So I say the Ancient Spren is not an Unmade, so we have no indication the Unmade have been trapped at all.

As a tangent, I think this Ancient Spren is also the third Bondsmith spren. But that's not terribly relevant to the concept of Voidlight.

So, I'll admit that it's not strictly impossible for this sphere to hold an Unmade. But I don't see a good genesis for the idea, when the parallels with Stormlight are so much plainer. I never quite saw where the idea came from in the first place, so unless it is something that has leaked out from those who read WoK Prime (like something that happened with White Sand, unfortunately), it looks overwhelming to me that the sphere holds Voidlight.

Anybody want to try to convince me otherwise?

[ccstat]

4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

On this, I think the voice may have been Cultivation. 

Ah, I didn't think of that. Definitely plausible, and the most likely speaker to use the Rhythms. Her future sight could be allowing her to put all sorts of pieces into place. I wasn't considering her an actively involved participant, but that's only because we haven't seen her do anything on screen yet.

30 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

So is this confirmation that Parshendi have gemhearts, and bring the spren into them to transform? 

I think so.

10 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

They said that the voice was in the Rhythm

No, the voice was "speaking to the Rhythms," which I think is the same way listeners will use the Rhythms when the speak.

4 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

 

[Everstorm]

Which meeting are you talking about?

 

1 hour ago, Jaconis said:

This was the first time I read this, as I wanted it to be in its final version before I did. I say this to excuse if these things have been discussed at length already  

The biggest thing I'm left with is how skillfully (and a little annoying, haha) Brandon is at steadily giving us new information and yet still leaving so many questions unanswered. 

Some other thoughts:

Not really important, but I wonder if Eshonai's meeting with Gavilar happens before or after his meeting with Amaram. This also puts that meeting in a new light, as it now seems to me as though Gavilar was reinforcing Amaram that their path was the correct one. Obviously this could be completely off, but it would be interesting if Amaram is the way he is because of Gavilar. 

I'm a little disappointed we seemingly didn't get any new information with regard to the Heralds who were there that night. 

Sneaky Venli knows SO much more than she has revealed. Do we know anything about whether she lived through the Battle of Narak? I think we have to assume she did until we get the body on screen. 

Finally, if the visions Gavilar received are the same as Dalinar's, then Gavilar really was a nutty crazy nutjob of a crazy person. Correct me if I'm wrong, but his bottom line (I can't bring myself to call it logic) is essentially this: My people fight too much, so I will throw the ENTIRE world into war to save them!

 

[+eveorjoy]

1 hour ago, ccstat said:

 @Extesian

Even if Gavilar is right about what happened, preventing transformation is a far cry from "ripping away spren" as proposed by @eveorjoy above. And while blocking transformations could very plausibly result in a population of slaveform listeners after a generation (assuming children are born without a bound spren), it certainly wouldn't do much in the middle of a war with Voidbringers. 

 

Sorry I could not delete Extesian's name on my tablet for some reason. 

@ccstat of course my idea is left field speculation and if I am wrong I would not be surprised. However, the Listeners are the Voidbringers. If capturing their spren could turn a Voidbringer soldier into a docile slave, then yes blocking transformations would be very useful in a war with the Voidbringers. 

44 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

Finally, if the visions Gavilar received are the same as Dalinar's, then Gavilar really was a nutty crazy nutjob of a crazy person. Correct me if I'm wrong, but his bottom line (I can't bring myself to call it logic) is essentially this: My people fight too much, so I will throw the ENTIRE world into war to save them!

Actually, as awful as it is, creating a common enemy is a great way to bring peace among your own kind. It is the plan of people both good and evil in many stories, from Watchmen to The Ender Series. Even in on Roshar you see the idea work. The Listeners had wars among each other until they angered the Alethi. Also Gavilar seemed to keep his princedoms together by finding people for them to fight. It is no wonder that when he hears in dreams the command to unite the world this is the path he would take. 

[dendrophobe]

4 minutes ago, ccstat said:

No, the voice was "speaking to the Rhythms," which I think is the same way listeners will use the Rhythms when the speak.

I interpreted it as the voice was speaking across whatever cosmic radio station the Rhythms are being broadcast across. But I see your interpretation as well, and it's probably the correct way to look at it.

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Crackpot theory: the other female is Dalinars wife. That would be a game changer. 

I may not have my timing right, but Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher while Gavilar was still alive if I remember correctly, it's why he was away during the "Roshone incident." she should already be dead here. 

13 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

As a tangent, I think this Ancient Spren is also the third Bondsmith spren.

I was about to say this. Would definitely explain the "I'm RAFO in anything to do with the third Bondsmith" WoB. 

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I may not have my timing right, but Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher while Gavilar was still alive if I remember correctly, it's why he was away during the "Roshone incident." she should already be dead here. 

My crackpot assumes she fake died. We dont know the cause of her death, right?

[Calderis]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

My crackpot assumes she fake died. We dont know the cause of her death, right?

Oh. My brain didn't even consider that. 

Crackpot on, my friend.

[Jaconis]

25 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Actually, as awful as it is, creating a common enemy is a great way to bring peace among your own kind. It is the plan of people both good and evil in many stories, from Watchmen to The Ender Series. Even in on Roshar you see the idea work. The Listeners had wars among each other until they angered the Alethi. Also Gavilar seemed to keep his princedoms together by finding people for them to fight. It is no wonder that when he hears in dreams the command to unite the world this is the path he would take. 

That works as a "good" idea only when you can decimate the common enemy, when the damage to your people fighting the common enemy is less than that they are causing to each other. 

In this case, he is substituting infighting that, while significant and should not be minimized, is fairly limited in scope, with a war whose equal once caused 90% of the entire worlds population to be killed. In this case, while not ideal, it should be obvious that the infighting is preferable, and a different method of uniting should be found. Unless you're a crazy person. 

Again, if his visions were the same as Dalinar's, there are some absurd leaps in "logic" to get to Gavilar's conclusion. Dalinar's visions tell him to unite BECAUSE of the Everstorm, that a threat is coming and a united people are all that have a hope of surviving it. The visions are warnings that he must act to unite because otherwise they will be destroyed. Gavilar interprets this to mean he needs to hasten the threat. It makes no sense. 

Also, I'm talking about the meeting between Gavilar and Amaram in WoR prologue. Jasnah walks in on them discussing something in private, and she thinks Gavilar gave Amaram some task. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jaconis

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

That works as a "good" idea only when you can decimate the common enemy, when the damage to your people fighting the common enemy is less than that they are causing to each other. 

I get what you're saying, but I disagree. A small and easily defeated threat is unlikely to cause the desired effect to begin with. 

I've had this conversation with people in real life who complain about war and politics and how horrible people are and well... It's human nature. Unless there is an external threat big enough to make us think we all need each other we turn to backstabbing and infighting. 

His goal makes sense for what he wants. It is definitely a shortsighted idea though. As you say, it completely ignores the cost of that unity. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Jaconis]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I get what you're saying, but I disagree. A small and easily defeated threat is unlikely to cause the desired effect to begin with. 

I've had this conversation with people in real life who complain about war and politics and how horrible people are and well... It's human nature. Unless there is an external threat big enough to make us think we all need each other we turn to backstabbing and infighting. 

His goal makes sense for what he wants. It is definitely a shortsighted idea though. As you say, it completely ignores the cost of that unity. 

Oh it would work. Unquestionably it would unite his people. I just said it wasn't a good idea. It's the kind of idea that, as you say, ignores all logical consequences.

Its like he heard the first part of a vision, a part that says to unite, and then stopped listening. 

[Ciridae]

On the dark sphere, interesting that it is slightly violet. So far I've associated red with Odium, because of the red Listener eyes of stormform, but I've always wondered if the colors of the three moons were symbolic for the shards. Blue, green and violet could correspond to Honor Cultivation and Odium respectively. 

So the dark sphere seems to hold Odium's investiture. It could be the equivalent to stormlight, which is arguably the simplest explanation, but I wonder if it could instead be some kind of key to the ancient spren's prison. Do we have any idea if or how a spren in a regular fabrial can be released without breaking the gemstone? Gavilar says he's seen it done. And what constitutes a special gemstone to hold a god? Big spren=big gemstone? So many questions..

I like that Venli was mentioned, I hope we get her pov eventually. 

[+eveorjoy]

13 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

Again, if his visions were the same as Dalinar's, there are some absurd leaps in "logic" to get to Gavilar's conclusion. Dalinar's visions tell him to unite BECAUSE of the Everstorm, that a threat is coming and a united people are all that have a hope of surviving it. The visions are warnings that he must act to unite because otherwise they will be destroyed. Gavilar interprets this to mean he needs to hasten the threat. It makes no sense. 

You are assuming Gavilar realized the Listeners in their forms of power and the true desolation were the same thing. Dalinar didn't recognize the Listeners as the Voidbringers until Shallan told him. Gavilar may have assumed something worse than empowered Listeners was coming in the Everstorm. None of the visions showed what the Everstorm was or how it would be made,  only that it was coming and they needed to unite to survive it. 

[Jaconis]

20 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

You are assuming Gavilar realized the Listeners in their forms of power and the true desolation were the same thing. Dalinar didn't recognize the Listeners as the Voidbringers until Shallan told him. Gavilar may have assumed something worse than empowered Listeners was coming in the Everstorm. None of the visions showed what the Everstorm was or how it would be made,  only that it was coming and they needed to unite to survive it. 

That is an assumption on my part, but a valid one, or at least is the conclusion that Gavilar seems to have come to as well. 

The visions use the Everstorm and the True Desolation more or less interchangeably. Or rather, they always speak of the two together. If we assume Gavilar heard that as well, which again assumes Dalinar and Gavilar to have the same visions, then this quote from the prologue seems to indicate Gavilar knows exactly what returning the forms of power to the listeners will do. 

Quote

“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow prevented their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked to her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

It's a pretty safe assumption that "the storm" above is the Everstorm, IMO (you may disagree, interpreting that as to simply mean chaos). It's yet unknown how exactly he knew these things. As you say, Dalinar's visions seem to not indicate any of this, but IMO this indicates Gavilar knew exactly what his actions would cause. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jaconis

[Frostlander]

51 minutes ago, Calderis said:

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

As a tangent, I think this Ancient Spren is also the third Bondsmith spren.

I was about to say this. Would definitely explain the "I'm RAFO in anything to do with the third Bondsmith" WoB. 

I wonder if the Bondsmith Melishi just happened to be bonded to that spren.

Quote

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

1

 

[Jofwu]

The topic of slavery is a big one here. I think that's going to be something that comes up a lot in this book.

Quote

You’re not savages. You’re an enclave of memories. A window into the past.

I see lots of speculation about how Gavilar knows so much (beyond the visions). I'm betting at least some of what he knows has come from studying and speaking with the listeners.

Quote

I’m going to help you, Eshonai. Did you know, I’ve discovered how to bring your gods back?

I thought you’d be pleased to hear that we are allies in seeking the return of your gods.

I'm really hung up on the fact that Gavilar thinks the Parshendi want their gods to come back. It bothers me. If he knows so much, then surely he knows WHY their gods are no longer around. Their whole existence is defined by the fact that they fled from their gods. This makes no sense. Does he just not enough as much about their past (the past) as he seems to? Does he think something has changed? My impulse is to assume that he's just super arrogant. "This would be really awesome, so obviously you want it too, right?" But I think Gavilar is more clever than that. Heck, he has enough sense to know that other humans won't like his plan. Why assume the Parshendi will? There's a missing puzzle piece here. Granted, it may be a small and insignificant piece. But it's bothering me.

PS: After chatting on Discord, I lean toward the idea that Gavilar doesn't realize they fled from their gods. He thinks that humans chose to pacify them rather than keep fighting, and now the world has slunk into a dull, mundane version of its former self. He figures the best option is to release the Parshmen, bring back their gods, and settle this struggle once and for all. One of them wins and the other goes out in honor and glory. Thoughts on this?

Quote

We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked to her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed.

So we're told pretty explicitly here (assuming he's right) that Parshmen were locked into "slaveform" because a particular spren was captured. It's notable that not all listeners were affected by this act. Maybe it was a "fabrial" that they created, which they then used against them. But more likely, I think it didn't affect listeners who had already (at that point) "hidden" in dullform.

Any guesses on how it is reversed? Or was reversed, as it obviously has been. Was this spren freed? He seems to imply the Everstorm will reverse it. What's the mechanism there?

[Pattern]

The black sphere, faintly violet. Get out your sunscreen, it's UV radiation!
Does it contain "only" voidlight or an Odium-spren? We also don't know whether it's a glass sphere with a cut gem inside or a spherical-cut gem. The sperical-cut gem definitely could contain a much larger amount of Investiture than a small cut gem set inside a glass sphere.
We know that gems are charged with Stormlight during a highstorm. What would be the source of Voidlight? I could think of the Everstorm being such a source, but it is not summoned yet during the prologue. Lacking a source of Voidlight I would tend strongly to the sphere containing an Odium-spren (Unmade). Some Unmade are active during the time of the prologue, for example causing the Thrill of Battle or the Death Rattles. That doesn't mean there are no others still caught inside the black spheres. Of course, the sphere could be an old relic from the time before the last desolation, still charged with ancient Voidlight. That would almost certainly mean that Voidlight can be stored for an infinite time.