Who will be the new radiants

[+Extesian]

@Calderis

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Q: If Gavilar was still alive, would he most likely have aligned himself to or taken actions most similar to Dalinar, Amaram or Taravangian? In other words, which of the three is best acting out his will? 
 
A: I can say he would align with one of them most certainly, but I want to RAFO this for now. (Though I might have made it clear elsewhere and not be remembering.)

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Q: The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?
A: He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

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Q: The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.
A: That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.
Q: Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?
A: Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

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ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

But strangely I can't find a WoB on proto radiants. Anyway I think the Stormfather was instructed to share the visions with anyone he starts bonding with, and Gavilar was in that category. I think the first Oath has fixed wording but is quite flexible actually, hence the last one. And it's clear Gavilar does suit it notwithstanding the first Oath. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@Calderis

But strangely I can't find a WoB on proto radiants. Anyway I think the Stormfather was instructed to share the visions with anyone he starts bonding with, and Gavilar was in that category. I think the first Oath has fixed wording but is quite flexible actually, hence the last one. And it's clear Gavilar does suit it notwithstanding the first Oath. 

You're amazing. Thanks. 

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Life before death: the life of all is more important than the death of any individual. 

Strength before weakness: We must be strong enough to do what is necessary. 

Journey before destination: To balk at a step on the path is to lose sight of your goal. 

Taravangian appears to have been the one who inspired your interpretations of this Oath, which seems incredibly convenient.

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Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting

“     Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seed of humanity through the coming storm. Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison.”

—Paragraph 1

[Calderis]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Taravangian appears to have been the one who inspired your interpretations of this Oath, which seems incredibly convenient.

I was attempting originally to think of an interpretation that would work for him, without being incompatible with the words of the first ideal as written. I didn't look at the book, but considering my aim, I'm not at all surprised by the similarities. 

My only point was that, although there seems to be a general consensus on the meaning of the first ideal to readers, that shouldn't be taken as the only viable interpretation. 

[+Extesian]

 Yeah I think the key is that it's an ideal. The other ones are oaths. Either watt that Machiavelli one shows that we can't, as readers, think that someone acts incompatibly with it and 'breaks' it or isn't bonded because of it. It seems to be very loose compared to the actual oaths of an order. 

[maxal]

8 hours ago, Kira0147 said:

Hello everyone, I really hope the next will be someone new, a character never seen before , and not another kholin .

I see things in a different manner: I would rather the new Radiants be characters I am actually invested in reading. I understand the need for a bunch of minor Radiants pop out of barely named characters: after all, we need to get a sense Radiants are happening, but in terms of story making, I find it so much more interesting to read someone like Adolin finding his way, his path, his journey. For instance, I am not invested in reading the bridgemen: they are minor supporting characters, they add flavor to the story, but they aren't individuals I am invested in reading. Having one become a Radiant would be: "Oh OK" and nothing more. We wouldn't be privy to much of this character's inner thoughts, all bridgemen have minor roles, hence apart from having a bunch of background Radiants, I don't feel it would add much to the story. It would add background stuff, but I don't read a book for the background stuff, I read it for the main stuff.

It is why I would personally much prefer to read a good character I enjoy having a seemingly perfect life until it collapses around him, doing something terrible, thus dooming himself, going through a harsh period until he finds his strength again. I don't care if this character's name is "Kholin" or not, but YMMV.

7 hours ago, gbazz4 said:

Life before death

The Radiant seeks to defend life, always. He never kills unnecessarily, and never risks his own life for frivolous reasons. Living is harder than dying. The Radiant's duty is to live.

Strength before weakness

All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.

Journey before destination

There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.

Thanks for posting this! While I do agree with @Calderis those remain the interpretation of the Envisagers, they may not be the interpretation of each individual orders. They do however give us additional information to evaluate the actions of Gavilar with respect to Taravangian. It is also true we do know Gavilar was a proto-Bondsmith, though WoB later provided by @Extesian led me to believe the Stormfather might not be able to discern the recipient of his visions well enough. In shorts, he might have chosen badly when he chose Gavilar.

Still, I find the major difference in between Gavilar and Taravangian is the later has decided he had to kill ten innocents in order to save one thinking it is preferable one survives than all die while the former wanted to create an exterior thread in order to reinforce his unity. The fact this thread will cause the death of more than 10 innocents doesn't seem to contradict the oath as long as it isn't enforce. In shorts, the oaths haven't been broken, yet. I think.

Edited July 6, 2017 by maxal

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, maxal said:

Still, I find the major difference in between Gavilar and Taravangian is the later has decided he had to kill ten innocents in order to save one thinking it is preferable one survives than all die while the former wanted to create an exterior thread in order to reinforce his unity. The fact this thread will cause the death of more than 10 innocents doesn't seem to contradict the oath as long as it isn't enforce. In shorts, the oaths haven't been broken, yet. I think.

I disagree. When Kaladin decided to help Moash/Graves the bond immediately started to degrade, even though no oath had technically been broken. 

With Gavilar, I think the intent is important. He was intending fully to cause an event that would cause countless deaths. Either his conviction was fully true, and because of that he would be holding to his own interpretation of the first ideal, or in actions that would defeat the first ideal in intent, the bond would have begun to degrade. 

Yes, the Stormfather may have chosen poorly. Yes he may have never reached the second Oath (although with Bondsmiths, if there is enough wiggle room, his belief that he would be uniting Roshar against a common enemy, he may have been able to get that one). I still think that as horrible as his goals were, he was standing by a code of conduct that he believed was right. That, in its own twisted way is as honorable as Szeth or the Skybreakers.

I don't like it, but I think this means we have to accept the fact that Radiant is not synonymous with good. 

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. When Kaladin decided to help Moash/Graves the bond immediately started to degrade, even though no oath had technically been broken. 

With Gavilar, I think the intent is important. He was intending fully to cause an event that would cause countless deaths. Either his conviction was fully true, and because of that he would be holding to his own interpretation of the first ideal, or in actions that would defeat the first ideal in intent, the bond would have begun to degrade. 

Yes, the Stormfather may have chosen poorly. Yes he may have never reached the second Oath (although with Bondsmiths, if there is enough wiggle room, his belief that he would be uniting Roshar against a common enemy, he may have been able to get that one). I still think that as horrible as his goals were, he was standing by a code of conduct that he believed was right. That, in its own twisted way is as honorable as Szeth or the Skybreakers.

I don't like it, but I think this means we have to accept the fact that Radiant is not synonymous with good. 

I would argue Kaladin's bond started to disintegrate because he gave out two contradicting promises: he gave his words to two men, but keeping his word to one means breaking the other. In short, he was acting dishonorably and he was refusing to protect someone which needed protecting, Elhokar. I would argue, when he initially agreed to help Moash/Graves, it was the second oath he broke, not the first. The first, I suspect, he broke when he finally committed himself to murdering Elhokar which is killing one innocent over the potential death of some other.

I do agree the intend is important, but we have been given very hard to analyse information. On one side, we do know wanting to generate a mass extinction event just so your kingdom might appear stronger and more united would most likely breached the first oath, but on the other side, we do know Gavilar has been chosen. So it is either the Stormfather wasn't entirely aware of Gavilar's intend or his intend didn't breached the first oath as far as the Stormfather was concerned.

I think the difference with Szeth is Szeth was compelled to obey to the law: he had no way out, no other possibility but to either obey it or break it. Once he gets the validation he needs (he isn't crazy, he was right, his bane was unjust), then he can break out of it. Gavilar might have sought to unite, but we can agree there ought to have been other ways. Gavilar had other options: he chose this one.

I also agree it may be not all Radiants will be good which is why I have somehow come to root for a potential future where the Radiants will be divided, perhaps one group under one Bondsmith and the other group under the other.

[Toaster Retribution]

Concerning Gavilar, we dont really know when he first started having visions, or when he got involved with the SoH. Presumably his actions (including building a kingdom through bloody war) was something he saw as the right thing. Gavilar seems to have been a pretty conservative guy, with a strong wish for the Vorin church to gain power, and so I presume that he might have had a strong love for his country as well, and thus, he wished to unite Alethkar (and I'm not saying that conservatives or religious people are bad, just to avoid misunderstandings).

Gavilar, just like Dalinar, tried to unite, but they sought to do it for different purposes. I do think that Gavilar felt very justified though, which is why he was able to pass the ideals and eventual oaths. 

And then, when it comes to Stormfather, he is the guy who replied to a plea for help with sending a storm to wash away corpses. He doesnt seem to be awfully picky about who he chooses as a Radiant. At least, he seems to prioritize himself over humanity, given his unwillingness to bond Dalinar. Maybe strenght and security matters more to him than individual kindness.

[Iridium Savant]

Hello my friends, long time lurker, first time poster here.

I wanted to put in my thoughts on some potential new Radiants here.

Ever since I read the description of Willshapers in WoR I have known they were my people.
I have been searching for them hidden among the pages since then and think they will have a very special role among the Knights!

The Willshapers divine attributes are resolute and builder and in the WoR interlude Talenel said that Kalak the WIllshapers Herald would teach people how to cast bronze when they had forgotten, I believe they will be the crafters and engineers of the Knights, not all of them, but a good portion.

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:42 PM, maxal said:

Navani?

I am not against it, but I do not see the need for it either. In shorts, I do not see the need for her as a Radiant, I do not see what it would add to the story, hence I am generally against it.

I have to disagree @maxal, I think Navani has a major part to play in the story, not only will her perspective be the best view point for us as the readers to learn more about fabrials and trapping spren in gems, I believe she will rediscover how to make Shardplate, and that the combined surges of Cohesion and Transportation will be the keys to crafting it**.
The Knights we have seen so far have all exemplified the divine attributes of their order.  Kaladin's desire to protect, Shallan's natural talent for creative arts.
Knowing that I am wagering that those who have a natural gift for 'building' are excellent candidates for being Willshapers, and Navani is noted at the worlds greatest artifabrian.
Along with her we had another great artifabrian mentioned in TWoK by Navani herself, Longshadow, who I believe is also an excellent candidate for the order of Kalak.

I think one if not both of them will be Willshapers and fill the role of tech support/R and D for the Radiants.

Besides those two I also believe that Axies the Collector is another great candidate for the Willshapers, he seems to have an affinity for spren, and is resolute in his quest to catalog all of them.  (this one is more of a wish of mine as Axies was my favorite interlude and Willshapers are my favorite order)

 

Anyways, thanks for reading my first post, I enjoyed writing it.  I got lots of other ideas and theories about the future of the Cosmere and hope to start posting here more, I will also hopefully be putting up a post in the Introduction area this weekend as I with to get to know all of you more by participating in the community rather than just lurking around reading.

**I am thinking Cohesion and Transportation will be the surges key to crafting. I believe from what we know so far that Cohesion is the control of the weak axial bond in molecules, the ability to change the state of matter. Solid/Liquid/Gas, partial or minor changes to the axial bonds would allow you to shape solids in your hand like clay as well.  That combined with the ability to teleport molecules into intricate patterns could allow someone to craft manufactured type products extremely well.  Imagine taking a block of bronze, a single solid block that thinks of itself as a complete thing, then turning it into a cloud of bronze.  At that point the single block is no more and each individual molecule of the bronze could be 'transported' into a new pattern then solidified into the chosen shape.  No need for castings or molds to create the metal portions of fabrials!

[kiapet]

On 6/30/2017 at 0:22 AM, Ammanas said:

It it possible that it is the goal of that order to possess those attributes bc they struggle with them? That is a goal to achieve perfection in them? It is also possible I am very tired and that is a crazy idea...

 

On 6/30/2017 at 0:33 AM, Calderis said:

I honestly don't know. The only ones I know off the top of my head are the Windrunner ones. Although those two things do seem to come naturally to him, only having a single point of reference makes it unreasonable to assume Kaladin's natural ability there is consistent across the attributes for all orders. 

Both Kaladin and Lift had narration saying that their oaths exemplified the type of person they want to/need to be. So I think it's about taking your best qualities and improving upon them, making them a more central part of your life. Kaladin is a good example because the desire to protect comes to him naturally but he to work to improve upon it by overcoming his hatred.

[Kira0147]

It may be a little far fetched or unlikely , but does anyone of you think that a certain mistborn character

Spoiler

"Kelsier"

may show up on roshar, and maybe join some order ?

[ryshadium90]

40 minutes ago, Kira0147 said:

It may be a little far fetched or unlikely , but does anyone of you think that a certain mistborn character

  Reveal hidden contents

"Kelsier"

may show up on roshar, and maybe join some order ?

Ooh, I like that idea. What would he be though? He could be a Bondsmith because you know, the whole Survivor thing and bringing people together. I wouldn't mind seeing him as and Edgedancer, because to have powers like Lift...Though I'm not sure if he would go along with ideal, to remember those who no one else remembers. He kind of emulates that. It would be cool to see him as a Windrunner like Kaladin, but I'm not sure if he fits those Ideals either. His frequent arguments with Marsh about noblemen and skaa were often questionable.

Edited July 8, 2017 by ryshadium90

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, Kira0147 said:

It may be a little far fetched or unlikely , but does anyone of you think that a certain mistborn character

  Reveal hidden contents

"Kelsier"

may show up on roshar, and maybe join some order ?

Considering Brandon doesn't want to make it a requirement of anyone to read other series to enjoy this one, I can't see it happening as more than a cameo. 

I also can't imagine this particular character wanting to be constrained by any of the Oaths 

[Kira0147]

@ryshadium90 , I can see him as an edgedancer,to remember the weak (like the skaa).

@Calderis , yeah you're right,but a cameo will be awesome too.

[Toaster Retribution]

21 minutes ago, Kira0147 said:

@Calderis , yeah you're right,but a cameo will be awesome too.

As cool as it would be, I doubt it would happen. He seems to be more concerned about Scadrial right now, and I doubt he knows enough about Roshar to have an interest in going there. If we are going to get one Scadrial character (not counting the 17th Shard ones) my bet would be:

Spoiler

Marsh, sent by Harmony to check out what state Odium is in.

 

[maxal]

My personal thoughts are characters such as Hoid, Kelsier, Marsh and anyone not originated from Roshar are incredibly unlikely to become Radiants. If they appear within the story, they remain minor side characters, not protagonists which isn't a show stopped in itself as minor side characters can certainly become Radiants, but to give them such a story arc would imply needing your readers to know whom they are. That's the problem... Brandon does not want all of his readers to have to read every single one of his series to appreciate one: he understands Mistborn does not appeal to all of his Stormlight readers. 

@Iridium Savant: Navani becoming a Willshaper has been discussed in the past. Most argumentation I have read was rather similar to your own: Navani is an engineer, Willshapers were engineers, it is a nice fit and it would allow us to grow into her fabrial making skills. My major issue with it is it is linking a character to a Radiant order based on their profession and not their qualities. Radiant sprens are not looking for individuals occupying selected professions: they are looking for individuals harboring given personality traits. For instance, Elsecallers are not looking for scholars, but they are looking for individuals able to rationalize without using their emotions. Obviously, their criteria makes it so most chosen knights will be scholars, but nothing precludes soldiers from being chosen, if they are able to think straight without emotions. Lightweavers are looking for individuals able to craft strong lies which, of course, is more easily found among artists, but being an artist is not a requirement. Other individuals could have the same qualities without being artists. 

Thus, I disagree with putting Navani into the Willshaper order based on the fact she is an engineer. As far as we can tell, Willshapers employ knights which are erratic, unreliable, unpredictable, curious and focused on building which is a hard one to pigeon hole. Navani has none of those characteristics: she simply does not fit within the given traits we have been given, as far as we can understand them. 

It is also why I disagree with Lirin being an Edgedancer because he is a surgeon... Not all Edgedancers were doctors, many of them might have been, but being a doctor is not a requirement nor is it a choosing criteria among Edgedancers sprens.

[Toaster Retribution]

@maxal Navani is pretty curious though, and she likes to build things. Her behavior when it comes to rules is pretty unpredictable. She also does things nobody expects her to, like writing Justice on the ground at the end of WoK, or kicking off a relationship with Dalinar. 

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal Navani is pretty curious though, and she likes to build things. Her behavior when it comes to rules is pretty unpredictable. She also does things nobody expects her to, like writing Justice on the ground at the end of WoK, or kicking off a relationship with Dalinar. 

She isn't curious in a way which makes her popped behind closed doors, she isn't unpredictable in ways which makes them unreliable, she can be trusted to finish a task, to achieve a target which, as far as I can tell, Willshapers struggle with. Also, she has no interest for foreign cultures, she is dismissive of everything not Vorinism, she isn't attracted to the wide spaces before her.

I honestly do not get the right vibe from her. 

[kiapet]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

As far as we can tell, Willshapers employ knights which are erratic, unreliable, unpredictable, curious and focused on building which is a hard one to pigeon hole.

I know it's been said before, but Eshonai fits this to a T. Or at least did before her leadership role forced her to restrain herself, though even that is being "focused on building".

[maxal]

3 hours ago, kiapet said:

I know it's been said before, but Eshonai fits this to a T. Or at least did before her leadership role forced her to restrain herself, though even that is being "focused on building".

And the Oathbringer's prologue makes it even more obvious  I am convinced Eshonai will become a Willshaper. She was said to be unreliable, often wandering where she was not supposed to instead of completing the task she was asked to, always peeking behind closed doors, always curious about new cultures, new people: this is so not Navani. Navani looks down on most people, she has no interest into foreigners, she judges them harshly for their different culture: she might be an engineer, but I doubt she has the personality traits Willshapers are looking for into their knights.

My thoughts are to be a Willshaper, you need to be very open-minded and naturally be curious about other cultures, other worlds. So far, Eshonai is the only character I see beffintg this description.