Who will be the new radiants

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Not only is it hard, but it has given me nightmares for months. If only I could get one clear answer, but somehow, just saying "Adolin's story arc will not disappoint, stop fretting" is too spoiler-y 

Considering the subjective nature of reading, I don't think that's a matter of spoilers as much as it is a statement that is impossible to be universally true. 

If he said that, he'd be lying to a portion of his readers, no matter what he wrote. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering the subjective nature of reading, I don't think that's a matter of spoilers as much as it is a statement that is impossible to be universally true. 

If he said that, he'd be lying to a portion of his readers, no matter what he wrote. 

Well... I bet he would readily say it about Kaladin's story arc... because he knows the possibility of readers not liking whatever he'll write will be small. Also, he did warn readers not to expect too much out of Renarin and he did say Jasnah only had a small role. He does comment on story arcs in a subjective manner. Obviously, many readers might disagree Jasnah's role is small and many might feel what we get out of Renarin is sufficient: I can't say. 

It'd be great if he were to give us an indication, the fact there are very little of them, makes me not know what to expect and constantly lower those expectations.

I don't think he would be lying if he were to say something. Readers are smart enough to know "not disappointing" is a subjective term and has to be read as "interesting significant things will happen, it may not be what you want to happen, but it definitely makes a good story".

[DocHoliday he/him]

Indeed. If nothing else; "will not disappoint" could also refer to we 17th Sharders simply gathering more Cosmere information. Sanderson is well aware of how canny we are about picking his work apart 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I find it unlikely Lift will appear in Part One, and maybe even Two, as isn't that simultaneusly happening with Edgedancer?

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

Indeed. If nothing else; "will not disappoint" could also refer to we 17th Sharders simply gathering more Cosmere information. Sanderson is well aware of how canny we are about picking his work apart 

True enough, though not when applied to a particular character arc. I don't think many people, within the examples I have provided, would think "Oh yeah more Cosmere tip-bits". Arguably, if he were to say a given book would not disappoint, then yes, I do think many would interpret it this way.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I find it unlikely Lift will appear in Part One, and maybe even Two, as isn't that simultaneusly happening with Edgedancer?

This is a fair point, but Edgedancer might only overlap over Part 1 which would make Lift available for Interlude 1. I think it has been made clear Lift will not appear within the parts, but the interludes.

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I find it unlikely Lift will appear in Part One, and maybe even Two, as isn't that simultaneusly happening with Edgedancer?

I don't know the source for this, so I may be misremembering, but wasn't Edgedancer written specifically to show the events with Nale? 

If my memory is correct, then I read that Brandon wrote that to show that particular spoiler-y moment near the end, because without it, Nales actions would appear inconsistent to the reader. 

The timing of the Everstorm also shows that if it is actually overlapping Oathbringer, it should only be for the first couple chapters. 

[Agent34]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't know the source for this, so I may be misremembering, but wasn't Edgedancer written specifically to show the events with Nale? 

If my memory is correct, then I read that Brandon wrote that to show that particular spoiler-y moment near the end, because without it, Nales actions would appear inconsistent to the reader. 

The timing of the Everstorm also shows that if it is actually overlapping Oathbringer, it should only be for the first couple chapters. 

IIRC it was to show the reason for Nale's change as well as Lift's development as future appearances will show her advanced in her power/development as a Knight so Edgedancer allowed Brandon to show that development.

[Storming Radiant he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't know the source for this, so I may be misremembering, but wasn't Edgedancer written specifically to show the events with Nale? 

You are right. Mr. Sanderson mentioned it in the Edgedancer postscript.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Storming Radiant

[StormblessDave]

I think Hoid and Amaram are likely candidates too.

Hoid obviously(he goes around acquiring magic from different planets in the cosmere) So he might get an honourblade or somehow figure out how to bond a spren,he's probably already contacted them since he's been in the cognitive realm.

Amaram because he's doing what he believes is right and I personally believe he'll become a sky breaker. It might set up a Kaladin and Dalinar vs Szeth and Amaram fight? (Fingers crossed) He technically broke rules(murdering Kals crew),but I think they can be overlooked in the current Roshar culture,with the nobility and the dark eyes stuff giving light eyes privileges,after all Nale bent the laws a lot ,However the thing against this idea is the fact that he was trying to bring the voidbringers back,that bit stumps me still(I don't remember if that was addressed),was It to bring back the radiants?

Elhokar,Teft,the bastard son(most random guess I agree)are some other possibilities 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, StormblessDave said:

Nale bent the laws a lot

He might allow legal loopholes, but "bending the law" seems like something he would take offense to.

As to your actual suggestions, I don't think Amaram will because he's dishonorable. Hoid is uncertain because "reasons."

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Hoid is uncertain because "reasons."

The only one I could see Hoid going for is Lightweaver. I doubt he'd want to deal with the constraints of the other Orders oaths. 

[Leafdancer she/her]

On 7/1/2017 at 4:34 PM, The One Who Connects said:

On 7/1/2017 at 4:23 PM, Edgedancer_01 said:

Teft (Stoneward?)

I'm not sure if there is anything to back up this theory, but I certainly like the idea.

The attributes of the Stonewards seem to fit Teft ("they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. -TWoK, chapter 13, page 1")  I'd be perfectly happy if he was just a Windrunner squire, but he does have potential to become a proto-Radiant.    

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The only one I could see Hoid going for is Lightweaver. I doubt he'd want to deal with the constraints of the other Orders oaths. 

Agreed.  The fact that he's a musician/storyteller plus the fact that he's already visited the Cognitive Realm might point to his becoming a Lightweaver in one of the middle or later books.  

I don't see Amaram becoming a KR.  He's pretty despicable.  Are there any orders of the KR who would have him after what he did to Kaladin and his squad?

[Price_McKinney]

I think that in book 3, they will mostly be new or previously unimportant characters. To keep the series interesting, I'm sure Sanderson will keep mixing in new and interesting characters.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Price_McKinney

[Yitzi2]

There are no radiants that I particularly expect in book 3, though of those that I expect to happen eventually, "Bondsmith Taravangian" is the one that I think is most likely to be book 3.

[+Extesian he/him]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

The only one I could see Hoid going for is Lightweaver. I doubt he'd want to deal with the constraints of the other Orders oaths. 

I don't think it's about Hoid. I think its about the spren. You'd have to be a pretty reckless spren to bond a dude that will almost definitely confine you to an agony cycle of half-death. This is the guy who will watch worlds burn to get what he wants. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The Amaram and Taravangian ideas are interesting. Both of them could be argued have honorable goals, but their means suck. That breaks the "journey before destination" oath, and should thus stop both of them from becoming Radiants.

On the other hand are the fact that some orders might find ways to get around this, for example, Nale being willing to take Szeth, because Szeths actions, no matter how despicable, followed the law. 

And Taravangian as a Bondsmith would defenitely be interesting.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The Amaram and Taravangian ideas are interesting. Both of them could be argued have honorable goals, but their means suck. That breaks the "journey before destination" oath, and should thus stop both of them from becoming Radiants.

On the other hand are the fact that some orders might find ways to get around this, for example, Nale being willing to take Szeth, because Szeths actions, no matter how despicable, followed the law. 

And Taravangian as a Bondsmith would defenitely be interesting.

Well, that's the popular interpretation of that part of the first Oath. Another interpretation could be that you have to not balk at certain steps on your journey, such as killing someone. @Calderis explained this much better somewhere else, but I can't remember it very well.

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

Well, that's the popular interpretation of that part of the first Oath. Another interpretation could be that you have to not balk at certain steps on your journey, such as killing someone. @Calderis explained this much better somewhere else, but I can't remember it very well.

My argument was that we know from WoB that the Oaths are open to interpretation by both the individual, and the Spren. There's a WoB that states that two Windrunners could disagree on whether an oath were kept or not, implying that that interpretation isn't even consistent across a single order.  we know that Gavilar was a proto-bondsmith, and pretty much everything that Amaram and Taravangian are doing were directly inspired by him. If he could make it past the first oath (and in my opinion, bonding to a spren enough to attract them in the first place means you can), then anyone could if the believe what they are doing is right. 

My take on the first oath to cover both Gavilar and Taravangian (as a possible Bondsmith) was broken into the three parts of the first ideal. 

Life before death: the life of all is more important than the death of any individual. 

Strength before weakness: We must be strong enough to do what is necessary. 

Journey before destination: To balk at a step on the path is to lose sight of your goal. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My argument was that we know from WoB that the Oaths are open to interpretation by both the individual, and the Spren. There's a WoB that states that two Windrunners could disagree on whether an oath were kept or not, implying that that interpretation isn't even consistent across a single order.  we know that Gavilar was a proto-bondsmith, and pretty much everything that Amaram and Taravangian are doing were directly inspired by him. If he could make it past the first oath (and in my opinion, bonding to a spren enough to attract them in the first place means you can), then anyone could if the believe what they are doing is right. 

My take on the first oath to cover both Gavilar and Taravangian (as a possible Bondsmith) was broken into the three parts of the first ideal. 

Life before death: the life of all is more important than the death of any individual. 

Strength before weakness: We must be strong enough to do what is necessary. 

Journey before destination: To balk at a step on the path is to lose sight of your goal. 

Yes, thank you, I couldn't remember exactly how you phrased it, so thanks for saying it better than I could.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

This is certainly an interesting way of seeing it. Then maybe Amarams short time as a "Radiant" in WoR might foreshadow something more permanent.

[Calderis he/him]

16 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is certainly an interesting way of seeing it. Then maybe Amarams short time as a "Radiant" in WoR might foreshadow something more permanent.

I really hope not. Taravangian knows that Vorinism is running on a false pretense since he figured out that the Almighty is dead. He regrets the things he has to do, but views them as necessary. 

Amaram on the other hand intentionally puts forward the face that he believes is honorable and right as a supposed example to others, while believing he's breaking those rules. I believe this based on his interactions with Sadeas, and his shamed reaction to Kaladin after the betrayal. 

So while Taravangian believes what he is doing is necessary, Amaram appears to be knowingly going against the things he actually does believe, in order to fulfill a desire to restore the Vorin church.

It's a subtle distinction, but I think that Amaram would interpret the first ideal in a more conventional way, and think he's already broken it. 

[Kira0147]

Hello everyone, I really hope the next will be someone new, a character never seen before , and not another kholin .

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, Kira0147 said:

Hello everyone, I really hope the next will be someone new, a character never seen before , and not another kholin .

Welcome, and pretty much agreed. I wouldnt have anything against Adolin or Elhokar as Radiants, but I definitely want more focus on non-Kholin characters (and Bridgemen).

[gbazz4 he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

My argument was that we know from WoB that the Oaths are open to interpretation by both the individual, and the Spren. There's a WoB that states that two Windrunners could disagree on whether an oath were kept or not, implying that that interpretation isn't even consistent across a single order.  we know that Gavilar was a proto-bondsmith, and pretty much everything that Amaram and Taravangian are doing were directly inspired by him. If he could make it past the first oath (and in my opinion, bonding to a spren enough to attract them in the first place means you can), then anyone could if the believe what they are doing is right. 

My take on the first oath to cover both Gavilar and Taravangian (as a possible Bondsmith) was broken into the three parts of the first ideal. 

Life before death: the life of all is more important than the death of any individual. 

Strength before weakness: We must be strong enough to do what is necessary. 

Journey before destination: To balk at a step on the path is to lose sight of your goal. 

Can you please post the WOB you are talking about? I am curious if it clearly specifies all Oaths are open to interpretation or if it is more like the Oaths that apply to the specific order are open to interpretation which is why you could have the two windrunners disagreeing on a particular oath and maybe their disagreement relates to an oath that applies to their order.

I have some thoughts on the arguments for Taravangian becoming a Radiant. I don't have an electronic copy of WOK so i am relying on the summary of the first ideal from Coppermind and Stormlight Archive Wikia. I believe they are using the in book description and explanation from when Teft discusses the first ideal with Kaladin.

Life before death

The Radiant seeks to defend life, always. He never kills unnecessarily, and never risks his own life for frivolous reasons. Living is harder than dying. The Radiant's duty is to live.

Strength before weakness

All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.

Journey before destination

There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.

From the description that Teft gives it seems to me like Taravangian wouldn't meet the in book description of the first ideal.

Spoiler

I suppose you can make an argument that he meets "Life before Death" part because his killings aren't "unnecessary" he is killing people because he believes they are necessary. He is trying to get the death rattles, he is setting up the killing of leaders and starting the Civil War in Jah Keved so he could become king after the war is over so and all of this is so he can try and unite Roshar (i believe that was the motivation here, i can't remember if that is right since it has been a while since i read WOR). However, i think a reasonable argument can be made that he should be defending all life, not sacrificing some people for the greater good of everyone and so he is violating "Life before Death." 

I feel a good argument can be made that "Strength before Weakness" is being violated because he is not protecting the weak he is actually killing the weak to get death rattles.

Finally, it seems he is violating "Journey before destination." The description from Teft states "Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one." It seems Taragvangian is doing exactly the opposite of the description of "Journey before Destination" by killing people for the death rattles and killing world leaders and starting civil wars. Arguably his actions are like killing the one innocent in order to save the ten innocents.

It seems hard to reconcile his actions with the in book description of the first ideal. I would say similar issues apply to Amaram becoming a radiant. I am not sure belief in doing what is right is what will get you to becoming a Radiant. You have to live the right way. Taravangian and Amaram know they are doing bad things and they are trying to say the ends justify the means, but i feel like the in book description of the first ideal kind of argue Radiants can't use the ends to justify the means (especially Journey before Destination).

I am curious to see what you think. feel free to poke holes in my logic. i know you are well versed in the books and in the WOB so there is probably stuff i am missing that you can point out.   

[Calderis he/him]

@gbazz4 I'll try to find it and edit it in soon. My main reasoning, again, is because of Gavilar. From Taravangian we know that Gavilar was receiving the Stormfather's vision, making him a proto-bondsmith. His goals were the exact same as Amarams, although I suspect his reasoning was different. 

If Gavilar could attract a spren, I have to assume that the Spren would, by bonding in general, be alright with that person's interpretation of the first ideal. 

The ideals as theft know them are a product of the Envisigers. They may have perfectly aligned with one or even most of the Orders. But what we've already seen of the Skybreakers shows that the call to protect the weak no matter what doesn't apply to them.

Edit: I'm trying and failing to find anything that pertains to interpreting the Oaths. @Extesian, any other WoB finders care to help? 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Calderis