Movie Adaption of the Way of Kings

maxal · March 1, 2017

4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

I agree on the problems you see, but would almost argue for the opposite treatment: WoK + WoR in 3 movies!

I think it is important to see the conflict riddling Alethka for the wider world building, so I would keep the fighting outside of the shattered plains, but move it to after the assassination and the Greatshell hunt, which run straight into each other. That way we get the disjunction between the anguish after Gavilars death and the complacency on the Shattered plains 6 years later, and also get the demonstration of Shards at their best before seeing Kaladin beat the Shardbearer (which, yes, would happen all in one sequence). Most of the time in the slave wagons can then be skipped, rather having. A shot of Kaladin in the wagons reaching the shattered plains should be enough. From there we kind of agree, in terms of Sadeas, Dalinar and Adolin, and the general story progression.

I think that Shallan's story should also happen more or less as is, but in a SECOND movie, released just after the second and going right up to the shattered plains thus providing a full arc from sheltered youth to independent young woman, providing some closure on Jasnah via Tyn and cutting into what needs to be covered in WoR. You could even use the original title planned for WoR, it being more appropriate here: The Book of Endless Pages. I would say realease it a little after WoK, because then you can have Kaladin's appearance, making sense after his being made a bodyguard on screen at the end of WoK.

WoR can then proceed as per the book, largely, as the third film after a normal gap between sequels.

I would say this probably wouldn't happen, as it means more movies... But we all saw what happened with the Hobbit...

I think 3 movies would be killing it. It is too much for the average viewer and the story, if told as within the books won't hit sympathy cords of most viewers. Especially since the first two books don't really make up for three independent story arcs completed with a beginning and an end. You need to built it up and you need to focus it on a rather simple story arc. Complicated is what you start to introduce once your series is established, you don't do it in a first movie. Hence, I would reduce to a very simple story arc: kingdom is seeking revenge for the assassination of the King while princess is slowly figuring out her father's death means more than it should, all through this soldier is going through crisis. It is very easy to have Jasnah merely teach/tell Shallan about the Recreance, the Heralds and the Radiants: it could also be done with her narrating a short story while we see the sequence. There, a few minutes and we get the important lore. The Cosmere and all of that shouldn't even be mentioned in the first movie: first you go small, later you go bigger.

The first movie, especially the first movie absolutely needs to have a completed stand-alone story arc. It can't end on the idea of a sequel. Remember, if it doesn't breach the North-American market, there won't be a sequel.

I also feel Kaladin's story arc, in a movie, would be much stronger if we see him being a soldier for more than one or two scenes before he is being made a slave. One or two sequences is not enough to built the character, it isn't enough for the viewers to truly be angry at his treatment. Shardbearers also need to be introduced before he kills one,we need to fear them, to see as nearly impossible to beat foes before Kaladin gets his lucky draw. We also need to have the whole lighteyed versus darkeyed discrimination well established before we move onto this arc, so no the movie can't start like the book. The whole beginning would work better if it is re-written: same story, different narrative means.

The slave wagon scenes, the trip to the Shattered Plains, the 9 months spent elsewhere are not important: they have to go. They wouldn't add anything to the movie. Movie Kaladin doesn't need any of those: he can't just go from squad-leader to bridge runner within the same army. We could even glimpsed bridge runs before Kaladin is sent them, get the feeling of how it is the lowly of the low position within the army, feel how painful it is to be demoted to a sure death. Also, we can't have Kaladin start talking to Syl before the idea of sprens and Radiants is introduced via Jasnah. It works in a book, it doesn't work in a movie: you can't show things viewers have no idea of. You need to explain it to them. Thus, instead of Teft telling Kaladin about the first ideal, I would have Shallan do it as, remember, they interact. Main protagonists have to interact, they can't be isolated as within the book. It won't work either: it would work on a TV series, but not in a movie.

Shallan would be the mostly changed character from the book because book Shallan doesn't work so well in a movie, not with the remaining of the story. We can't have her with her stealing arc while there are the Shattered Plains, it won't mingle well, I think. So I'd have her still be the naive girl who gets sheltered by Jasnah, taught be Jasnah up until Jasnah is assassinated. Perhaps it looks like an accident or something, but Shallan would investigate and would end up infiltrating the Ghostbloods, in the second movie, through through a slightly different path. I think good scenarist can work with those changes and wrap her up into a good character. Her backstory is only something we would get in the second movie, probably as she tells Kaladin.

I haven't thought of the second movie yet, it is hard to do so before reading Oathbringer as it can't end exactly as in the book. We perhaps do not want Adolin murdering Sadeas at the very end, maybe it happens earlier or in another movie, I have to read the follow-up before making my mind. One thing is clear though, we would see Jasnah as she makes her way back: she wouldn't remain "dead". I would probably show her being alive in the first movie: you can't start to resurrect characters in movies, too confusing. It has to be plain obvious to the viewers she is alive, not "there is no body" obvious.

So basically, movie needs not to be too long, not to focus on too many elements, not try to show too much in 2h as most fantasy movies try to it. Keep it simple, cast it well, have the viewers care, then you can go epic. Have this movie get a Gladiator feel, a self-contained story, but with an opening for a follow-up. If the movie offers an unpredictable emotional roller-cast, with a tad of romance on the back (I would definitely play the Kaladin/Shallan romance idea in the first movie only to introduce the Adolin angle in the second as Adolin remember is just a brat), good actors (preferably handsome, because well huh I think it helps selling the movie), good conflicts (rich and poor, father and son, friends and enemy), then it will work.

Jondesu · March 1, 2017

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Especially since the first two books don't really make up for three independent story arcs completed with a beginning and an end. You need to built it up and you need to focus it on a rather simple story arc.

This hits a chord here. I really don't want to see this turn into another Last Airbender, which turned out horribly in part because they didn't have an independent arc, and people left feeling like they hadn't seen a whole movie. Granted, there were plenty of other problems with that movie, some of which have also been mentioned as concerns here (such as casting), but that was a huge part of the issue.

**Jofwu** · March 1, 2017

16 hours ago, maxal said:

In order to create a successful movie, I do agree emphasis will need to be made onto characters as opposed to world-building...

I thus suggest to move Shallan's story arc to... the Shattered Plains.

You don't have to have ALL of your characters interacting to build a story and have good characters. There's no reason Shallan has to be at the Shattered Plains for us to get to know her and for her to matter in the context of the story. I'd argue that can be done much better in Kharbranth. It's important to develop Jasnah, so having those two interacting is good enough. Plus I think it's important that we're introduced to Taravangian, since he's obviously going to play a big role down the road (I'd introduce the Diagram at the end of TWoK perhaps, along with the Silent Gatherers).

But I DO think you could have Shallan and Jasnah begin their journey sooner. This would work really well. Instead of studying in Kharbranth for all of TWoK, you put them on a ship maybe halway through. Cut out Jasnah's ethics/murder lesson and Kabsal. Shallan steals the soulcaster shortly after they're on the boat and makes plans to get off in a couple days at the next port. She has her soulcasting "accident" and gets discovered (skip the poison). Can't get rid of her until the next port, but then Shallan confronts Jasnah and they work it out before that point. You can probably work it out so Jasnah's murder happens during the climax. Perfect for a brief Jasnah "prologue" when WoR starts, and then the first scene is Shallan waking up on the beach.

16 hours ago, maxal said:

Movies need romance, we can't wait for the second movie to play out the love triangle.

We already have romance in TWoK: Dalinar and Navani.

I may be biased... I HATE love triangles. And I refuse to accept that we have a love triangle in Stormlight. Kaladin and Shallan shared an intense experience, there's no solid evidence that a romantic relationship between them will continue to develop. And I don't want to see YA-style love triangles in Stormlight.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Kaladin wouldn't spend the entire movie being a slave as he does in the book. Slaves have no agencies, no future and watching a hopeless main protagonist probably won't engage most viewers...

In this scenario, Kaladin kills the Shardbearer and watches his men being killed, then he is put to slavery, at about mid-movie or shortly before.

Shawshank Redemption? The Great Escape? There's plenty of great movies where the protagonists are in captivity the entire time. And in this case, it's only one protagonist out of three or so. I disagree that this is necessary.

I also think you're making Kaladin's story way more complicated than it needs to be in an attempt to cut flashbacks. We don't need extensive flashbacks. Just show Kaladin wheeling up in a slave cart from the beginning, explain his background contextually, and maybe throw in a very brief flashback scene as he shares the Shardbearer story late in the movie. That's all it needs. We don't need to see pre-slave Kaladin being awesome. Just show us Kaladin being awesome as he tries to save/protect Bridge Four.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

I'd play Adolin more strongly as the "rebellious son"...

I don't like this either because it's the complete opposite of what he is in the books. I would just downplay his role. He primarily exists in the book because we mostly see Dalinar from his own POV, and Brandon needed someone to highlight how crazy he seems to everyone else. In a movie we're not in Dalinar's head, so there's no need for those. No need to change Adolin. Just push him more to the background for now. Use him to speak reason to Dalinar on a few cases. Use him to add some light humor.

maxal · March 2, 2017

8 hours ago, Jondesu said:

This hits a chord here. I really don't want to see this turn into another Last Airbender, which turned out horribly in part because they didn't have an independent arc, and people left feeling like they hadn't seen a whole movie. Granted, there were plenty of other problems with that movie, some of which have also been mentioned as concerns here (such as casting), but that was a huge part of the issue.

To be honest, as far as I could gather, the list of problems was so daring with the Last Airbender movie, it would be useless to link its failure only to one element. This being said, I would say I took the liberty to question my work colleagues as to whether or not they would be interested in seeing a fantasy movie such as the Stormlight Archive. I mentioned it would be mix in between LoTR and WoW with a highly alien world. There comments were interesting.

First off, all said if the movie looked anything like WoW, they wouldn't even bother. All agreed WoW looked horribly fake and unreal, the aesthetic wasn't pleasing, hence they felt no interest within the movie. One said it perhaps was interesting for gamers who loved the universe, but not for other people; another one plainly said there was nothing of interest to see in it...

Second off, several said while they might want to see the movie, they would probably not convince their girlfriend/wife to go see it with them.

I asked what it would take to convince them and they were lost... So I asked them if the movie had an underlining romance sub-plot and if it had handsome male specimens in it if it would help: all said it might tip the balance, especially the second point. One clearly pointed out the was a very valid reason why the ladies loved the Thor movie and why several indulged into 300... She bluntly said if there isn't anyone to look at, then it is a serious negative point, but she specified it had to be done with taste, it can't be over-powering or too over the top. I have to strongly agree with her, this is how most women's though process do work: they will go see ANY movie if they like the main actor and/or if they think he is handsome, ANY movie. One guy said if Leonardo DiCaprio stared in the movie, then yeah his wife would totally go see it, no matter what it is about. Women, more than any viewers, are highly susceptible to chose their next movie night based on who's in it as opposed to what's the story is about.

Not all agreed romance was required, some said no, but most agreed it would reached a larger public if it has it, providing it is done with taste. Several mentioned, for instance, how the Star Wars 1-2-3 romance sub-plot was cringe-y and all agreed it was the prime example of "What not to do": they all thought the movies would have been better without it. Hence, they'd rather have no romance than a bad one: all felt a bad romance harmed a movie more than it helps it.

This being said, I will not hide the fact I wish for this movie adventure to be commercially successful. I strongly believe to do so, changes will need to be made to how the story is being told as while the chosen narrative works admirably within a book, it doesn't work in a movie. In action-oriented movies, character arcs need to follow a given path: you have the setting, the character as he initially is, the breakdown or the changing element, the denouement where the character tries to solve the problem and fails and tries again completed with the final resolution. Having Kaladin's story start when he is at the lowest wouldn't work because it would remove the opportunity to create strong emotions within the viewers. These are needed if they are to latch onto those characters.

I also feel if the movie tries to go too large, too big before it manages to immerse the viewers, it will lose them. Nobody wants to watch the details of a world they do not know before they are being told why they should care.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

You don't have to have ALL of your characters interacting to build a story and have good characters. There's no reason Shallan has to be at the Shattered Plains for us to get to know her and for her to matter in the context of the story. I'd argue that can be done much better in Kharbranth. It's important to develop Jasnah, so having those two interacting is good enough. Plus I think it's important that we're introduced to Taravangian, since he's obviously going to play a big role down the road (I'd introduce the Diagram at the end of TWoK perhaps, along with the Silent Gatherers).

But I DO think you could have Shallan and Jasnah begin their journey sooner. This would work really well. Instead of studying in Kharbranth for all of TWoK, you put them on a ship maybe halway through. Cut out Jasnah's ethics/murder lesson and Kabsal. Shallan steals the soulcaster shortly after they're on the boat and makes plans to get off in a couple days at the next port. She has her soulcasting "accident" and gets discovered (skip the poison). Can't get rid of her until the next port, but then Shallan confronts Jasnah and they work it out before that point. You can probably work it out so Jasnah's murder happens during the climax. Perfect for a brief Jasnah "prologue" when WoR starts, and then the first scene is Shallan waking up on the beach.

One of the major criticism of WoK remains, to this day, Shallan's story arc. Many readers felt it was out of the place and wondered why they had to read it. They felt it was breaking the pace. In a movie, this effect would be duplicate: you can't have too many uncorrelated character arcs within a large scale movie unless they are tied together. Switching the focus from the Shattered Plains to Karbranth, then to the boat trip is too many shuffle within the first movie of an non-established franchise. There will be time for more detailed world-building in future movies, but the first movie has to stay focus: if it fails on the Box Office, then there won't be a sequel. Hollywood doesn't make movie simply to please a handful of readers: it makes movies to make profit and a movie commanding a budget as high as SA needs to bring in the numbers. Since we are dealing with an alien world, all viewers references will be gone, we need to built them for them so they can invest themselves into the story. Thus too many settings would harm the movie more than it would help.

I have thought of Taravangian. My thoughts were he can be introduced within a later movie. One mistake fantasy movies often make is trying to go too big: Star Wars had the intelligence to focus on a few important battles, not the whole world. Thus it might Taranvangian won't even be in the movies, it depends where his story goes and how needed it is or if it should be ranked among the arcs which need to be dropped in order to make more compact and complete movies.

It might be having Jasnah/Shallan story arc in the Shattered Plains isn't the only way, it might it is possible to duplicate the settings (though I strongly advise against it), but one thing is sure, Shallan needs to make her way to the Shattered Plains within the first movie. The problem is it makes too big of a story to be told convincingly within the limited time frame (we can't have Shallan travel from the ship wreck to the Shattered Plains in 2 minutes, but we can't waste 30 minutes for it to happen either). Thus, I have to maintain my initial position, dropping the trip, the slavers and Tyn probably is the best choice. Stealing the soulcaster and the thugs can still happen: this should be Shallan's change/breaking moment in her first movie character arc. A good scenarist will be able to implement it within the other arcs in an interesting way.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

We already have romance in TWoK: Dalinar and Navani.

I disagree. Dalinar and Navani aren't suitable romance: they are bland, too old and there are no stakes at all surrounding their relationship. It won't be a good selling point: the romance needs to happen between the young, handsome people, not the old ones (mos women won't go for it unless they cast Dalinar with George Clooney, then your 50-60 years old will root for it). And yes, there are successful movies which do evolve around those, but they aren't action-oriented fantasy movies. Let's stick with what works. Also, Dalinar and Navani fail to create passion within the books, so imagine in the movies while the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin love triangle... Now that's something to work with.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

I may be biased... I HATE love triangles. And I refuse to accept that we have a love triangle in Stormlight. Kaladin and Shallan shared an intense experience, there's no solid evidence that a romantic relationship between them will continue to develop. And I don't want to see YA-style love triangles in Stormlight.

Love triangles are better suited for movies than for books. In books, they get annoying because we spend so much time within one character's head, they are tiring. In a movie however, you can leave most of it to the viewers imagination: a few glances, a few scenes and people will start to ship. Do not under-estimate the mass market appeal of well-written romance in between three handsome characters: the Adolin/Kaladin duality is to perfect not to be played in the movies.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

Shawshank Redemption? The Great Escape? There's plenty of great movies where the protagonists are in captivity the entire time. And in this case, it's only one protagonist out of three or so. I disagree that this is necessary.

I also think you're making Kaladin's story way more complicated than it needs to be in an attempt to cut flashbacks. We don't need extensive flashbacks. Just show Kaladin wheeling up in a slave cart from the beginning, explain his background contextually, and maybe throw in a very brief flashback scene as he shares the Shardbearer story late in the movie. That's all it needs. We don't need to see pre-slave Kaladin being awesome. Just show us Kaladin being awesome as he tries to save/protect Bridge Four.

Shawshank Redemption is a real-life story happening in a real-life world: it can afford to have a take on the standard action movie narrative, not to forget it isn't an action movie. We have to keep this in mind: because it worked for very different movies doesn't mean it will work for this one. See my above commentary: movies who work are capable of emotionally investing the viewers into the character. If we see Kaladin in his slave cart from the start, we loose this amazing opportunity to create powerful emotions when he is being made slave. Telling it through a flashback will destroy most of this built-up: it just isn't the same. Also, simply because Brandon flipped the order in the book doesn't mean the movie should do the same: what matters is the story and it matters it is told in the most effective way for the chosen medium.

Kaladin's story is immensely simple: soldier does a mistake and gets send to the bridge run, then fights to free himself. He is angry and depressed most of the time, but we need to have the context in order for viewers to feel those emotions with him. Why should be deprive the movie from the amazing opportunity to create a real emotional turmoil by seeing Kaladin kill the Shardbearer, then unjustly sent to slavery? Telling the story reversely, as within the books, removes this emotional climaxes and the movie, this movie in particular is going to need it.

Kaladin protecting Bridge 4 is the denouement, see the action sequence standard story arc. He needs the breaking point (not in the Radiant way, but in the narrative way, the moment where a protagonist's life changes dramatically, an example a colleague of mine who's wife is a published author was Jaws: breaking point is the shark killing, denouement is trying to catch the shark, final confrontation is killing the shark). Thus without seeing him as a soldier, his story is incomplete. The viewers can't relate.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

I don't like this either because it's the complete opposite of what he is in the books. I would just downplay his role. He primarily exists in the book because we mostly see Dalinar from his own POV, and Brandon needed someone to highlight how crazy he seems to everyone else. In a movie we're not in Dalinar's head, so there's no need for those. No need to change Adolin. Just push him more to the background for now. Use him to speak reason to Dalinar on a few cases. Use him to add some light humor.

Oh Adolin is the rebellious son: he opposes his father in every way back in WoK. He is seen as the "bad one" up until the story tells us he was actually right. His major climaxing moment is when he break all of his father's rules/codes. I would further play this aspect of his character because I feel it would work nicely in a movie. He adds tension, drama, action.

I also mean to say downplaying Adolin, in a SA movie, would be a serious mistake. Brandon may not need the character to steer his story from point A to point B, he might not find the character to be the most interesting, but Adolin is exactly the kind of character this movie needs to increase its masses appeal. See the above commentaries: women (agree, not all women, but a significant proportion of them) want to see eye-pleasing male actors in movies. Adolin, with his blond hair and blue eyes is exactly the perfect prototype to draw in those female viewers, especially if he is made to contrast Kaladin (you might think this sounds too YA, but very adult series such as True Blood played out the trope, if it is a sub-plot and it isn't over-powering, it will work). Adolin is the rich bratty kid with a golden heart hiding underneath all of the brashness, ah it is hard to explain, I sure nobody gets it on this forum... but I'd say there is a reason why a significant percentages of Adolin's fans are... women. This character draws to them, he pulls at something in them and "them" are exactly the viewers the movie will have a hard time targeting. Also he has an abrupt fall, he has edges Dalinar/Kaladin do not have: the Adolin fandom exists for a reason. People love Adolin and often those who love him the most are the "non-standard" fantasy readers, they are a good example of how the larger public might react to the story.

You might not agree, probably nobody on this forum agrees, but Adolin's character could definitely help make this movie better. Also, Dalinar's story arc is entirely internal which does not work well in an action-oriented movie (it works brilliantly in other kind of movies, but these aren't the kind we are making here): it needs Adolin to make it more dynamic. The romance aspect of the movie also needs Adolin, the horrible player who's all shy once you get through his skin. It is too perfect to skip it.

Simply because Brandon doesn't want to play out Adolin in his books more strongly doesn't mean the movie producers should do the same: importance of characters when going from books to movie often change, see how Arwen got more important in the movies than she truly was in the books or Theon. Or Eric in True Blood who's role got increased because of how the public reacted to him.

All this to say, SA is a story. Brandon writes it as he feels is the optimum way. Movies however are a different beast and the same story might need to be written in a slightly different way to garner the maximum effect.

Obviously, everyone is welcome to disagree. I will say again I want the movie to be a commercial success and to make it, I think some concessions will need to be made, especially concerning how the story is being told. Perhaps other avenues are possible and likely several are much better, but I sincerely doubt strictly following the book structure while omitting a few scenes isn't going to speak strongly enough to the public to secure a success.

Andy92 · March 2, 2017

I watched Hacksaw Ridge a couple nights ago, and the main character in that movie (which was a true story) resembled Kaladin's struggles to some degree. He fights with the concept of whether or not it's okay to kill in order to protect others, and it reminded me a lot of the conversation Kaladin had with his father in WoK.

Hacksaw Ridge also had romance involved with a soldier leaving his fiancé to fight in WWII. I know there are brief mentions of the girl Kaladin had feelings for in the flashback scenes, so you could possibly expand on that concept a little more than the book did to help the movie appeal to a wider audience. Look at what Peter Jackson did with Aragorn and Arwen. A lot of their romance is mentioned in the apendices of LOTR, but in the movie, it's a main plot point that drives Aragorn and Arwen throughout the war.

My only hesitation to this is that this romance never actually goes anywhere in the books, and Kaladin seems pretty disinterested in relationships for the most part. But I do think the first movie could use some sort of romance that isn't Dalinar's. And Shallan and Adolin don't even meet each other until WoR.

The One Who Connects · March 2, 2017

14 hours ago, maxal said:

I also feel Kaladin's story arc, in a movie, would be much stronger if we see him being a soldier for more than one or two scenes before he is being made a slave. One or two sequences is not enough to built the character, it isn't enough for the viewers to truly be angry at his treatment. Shardbearers also need to be introduced before he kills one,we need to fear them, to see as nearly impossible to beat foes before Kaladin gets his lucky draw. We also need to have the whole lighteyed versus darkeyed discrimination well established before we move onto this arc, so no the movie can't start like the book. The whole beginning would work better if it is re-written: same story, different narrative means.

This has several different points to address, so bear with me if it gets tangled up. (I'll edit it for overall clarity later if need be)

I agree that Shardbearers need to be a bigger perceived "threat-level" for Kaladin's miraculous kill to have the same punch on screen that we all know it should. My original thought was going to be that they were already introduced in the prologue: Gavilar vs Szeth. But I realized there were several issues with that. Shardbearer lost(albeit Szeth has magic..) and it's only one example. My second idea was to have one in the same army as Kaladin's for one of his soldier scenes, so we can see their destructive power without Kaladin being in danger, but most of them should be at the plains, meaning this might not be feasible.

I also agree that the Lighteye/Darkeye schism should be more established, but not necessarily more blatant. Anyone on here have opinions/ideas on how to make it understood enough that people can just make casual remarks without sounding too forced? Because if it's written well enough to be an underlying thing then it can be subtle insults that you understand as insults, but later realize they have a bit more oomph to them.

Anyway, through Kaladin, we are largely introduced to both of those things while he is at the plains(Shardbearers is more Dalinar's perspective, but the point stands..) Why not have some of Dalinar's perspective of the events at the Plains before bringing Kaladin there, slipping a bit of the the real war in between some of Kaladin's flashback arc? That way we can have some of Kaladin's flashbacks told as proper story rather than flashbacks, without the early movie devolving into the Kaladin show.

Kaladin and Dalinar's stories only directly converge near the end, so having a shorter period of separation once both are on the plains isn't necessarily a big issue. In addition, it gives a more immediate contrast to Kaladin's chasm run experiences, something I don't think we actually get for quite a while in the books. We as readers know they can't all be like this, but it helps to actually show it. However, while I feel we should get Dalinar's arc rolling earlier, I still feel that Dalinar catching the Chasmfiend claw should be later in the movie.(dang, was that really only his second chapter in the book?) Elhokar should also be introduced at least slightly before that, because it has more impact if we actually realize that he is saving the King, not just an incompetent random.

2 hours ago, maxal said:

If we see Kaladin in his slave cart from the start, we loose this amazing opportunity to create powerful emotions when he is being made slave. Telling it through a flashback will destroy most of this built-up: it just isn't the same.

Following with my idea above, would you settle for one of Kaladin's first scenes being when he joins the army? It'd introduce Kaladin and Tien right off the bat(getting a hunger games vibe from that scene now..), and start the connection between Kaladin and Amaram, rather than introducing him in the scene where he condemns Kaladin to slavery.

2 hours ago, maxal said:

You might not agree, probably nobody on this forum agrees, but Adolin's character could definitely help make this movie better. Also, Dalinar's story arc is entirely internal which does not work well in an action-oriented movie (it works brilliantly in other kind of movies, but these aren't the kind we are making here): it needs Adolin to make it more dynamic. The romance aspect of the movie also needs Adolin, the horrible player who's all shy once you get through his skin. It is too perfect to skip it.

I certainly understand why having Adolin helps counterbalance Dalinar in his arc, but given that most of the Adolin-Kaladin dynamic is in WoR after the battle of the Tower, I am unsure about the love triangle for the purpose of the timeline rather than the storyline. Having some of that dynamic during WoR is acceptable as long as they don't go overboard with it, but not in WoK, as it just isn't as feasible to forge. Giving Kaladin more story as a soldier means he isn't on the plains for more of the story, so he cannot even participate in a triangle. By all means you could have Shallan at the plains ahead of schedule so that she can have a romance with Adolin, but save the triangle for the next movie so that it wont feel rushed.

10 hours ago, jofwu said:

Plus I think it's important that we're introduced to Taravangian, since he's obviously going to play a big role down the road (I'd introduce the Diagram at the end of TWoK perhaps, along with the Silent Gatherers).

It's been generally accepted that the Szeth interludes for WoK and the Eshonai Interludes for WoR should stay for the movies, even if the others all get axed. Szeth's interlude arc leads up to him joining Taravangian, so while it wouldn't exactly bring up the Diagram, we'd see the Silent Gatherers and get both Szeth and Taravangian positioned for book 2. This line is to Maxal as well as you, but for Taravangian's reveal at the end to have an impact, we should see the simple side of him in that scene with him, Jasnah and Shallan in Kharbranth. You can fast-forward most of Shallan's early arc to have her at the plains in WoK, but since you don't want Kaladin to just "show up" at the plains, don't make Shallan just show up either.

Given your statement about how switching between too many things is too much shuffle for a non-established franchise, what do either of you think about the layout of Elantris? 3 primary perspectives, generally rotating between each of them every few chapters so that they all progress at an even pace. Ignoring anything related to the actual story, would that format actually work in a film medium, in any capacity?
I was thinking that if it would work, then that could help solve this issue. Shallan and Dalinar's arcs would somewhat join together via Adolin, so it would eventually only be swapping between 2 separate arcs, and even then, they are all at the plains so it could be perceived as parts of one bigger story, rather than disconnected arcs.

Edited March 2, 2017 by The One Who Connects

maxal · March 2, 2017

1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

I watched Hacksaw Ridge a couple nights ago, and the main character in that movie (which was a true story) resembled Kaladin's struggles to some degree. He fights with the concept of whether or not it's okay to kill in order to protect others, and it reminded me a lot of the conversation Kaladin had with his father in WoK.

Hacksaw Ridge also had romance involved with a soldier leaving his fiancé to fight in WWII. I know there are brief mentions of the girl Kaladin had feelings for in the flashback scenes, so you could possibly expand on that concept a little more than the book did to help the movie appeal to a wider audience. Look at what Peter Jackson did with Aragorn and Arwen. A lot of their romance is mentioned in the apendices of LOTR, but in the movie, it's a main plot point that drives Aragorn and Arwen throughout the war.

My only hesitation to this is that this romance never actually goes anywhere in the books, and Kaladin seems pretty disinterested in relationships for the most part. But I do think the first movie could use some sort of romance that isn't Dalinar's. And Shallan and Adolin don't even meet each other until WoR.

I absolutely agree. Yes, they could use Tarah instead of my idea of changing Shallan's arc. This is a very good idea and it allow Shallan's arc to remain more faithful to the book as opposed to my own idea. I would also to point, when I say the movie could use romance, I mean as a sub-plot, not a primary one, nothing over-powering or sickening. I mean, I think I will echo most people thoughts if I say I do not wish the movie to turn into a sappy romance, but some of it would definitely help. Think Han Solo and Leia in the Star Wars, something minor but which would get the viewers engage.

Shallan and Adolin should wait until the second movie, it is good to have the viewers wonder who will end up with who. Did you know that, back in the 70s, after the first Star Wars movie, people are arguing as to whether Leia should end with Luke or Han. That was, of course, before the second movie got out.

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

This has several different points to address, so bear with me if it gets tangled up. (I'll edit it for overall clarity later if need be)

I agree that Shardbearers need to be a bigger perceived "threat-level" for Kaladin's miraculous kill to have the same punch on screen that we know it should. My original statement was going to be that they were already introduced in the prologue: Gavilar vs Szeth. But I realized there were several issues with that. Shardbearer lost(albeit Szeth has magic..) and it's only one example. My second idea was to have one in the same army as Kaladin's for one of his soldier scenes, so we can see their destructive power without Kaladin being in danger, but most of them should be at the plains, meaning this might not be feasible.

I also agree that the Lighteye/Darkeye schism should be more established, but not necessarily more blatant. Anyone on here have opinions/ideas on how to make it understood enough that people can just make casual remarks without sounding too forced? Because if it's written well enough to be an underlying thing then it can be subtle insults that you understand as insults, but later realize they have a bit more oomph to them.

Anyway, through Kaladin, we are largely introduced to both of those things while he is at the plains(Shardbearers is more Dalinar's perspective, but the point stands..) Why not have some of Dalinar's perspective of the events at the Plains before bringing Kaladin there, slipping a bit of the the real war in between some of Kaladin's flashback arc? That way we can have some of Kaladin's flashbacks told as proper story rather than flashbacks, without the early movie devolving into the Kaladin show.

Kaladin and Dalinar's stories only directly converge near the end, so having a shorter period of separation while both are on the plains isn't necessarily a big issue. In addition, it gives a more immediate contrast to Kaladin's chasm run experiences, something I don't think we actually get for quite a while in the books. We as readers know they can't all be like this, but it helps to actually show it. However, while I feel we should get Dalinar's arc rolling earlier, I still feel that Dalinar catching the Chasmfiend claw should be later in the movie.(dang, was that really only his second chapter in the book?) Elhokar should also be introduced at least slightly before that, because it has more impact if we actually realize that he is saving the King, not just an incompetent random.

I had another idea. Let's have the first scene, after the prologue be the chasmfiend hunt. Within my idea, Kaladin is a Sadeas's soldier onto the Plains, so have him be there. It isn't hard to believe Sadeas would have a small retinue of personal soldiers even if Dalinar was responsible for the king's safety. We could then first see the scene from Kaladin's perspective, I have muse over those lighteyes. We see the cleavage, right here and there: lavish lighteyed and working darkeyed. We could even have Kaladin participate in the fight, we see him see the Shardbearers, we get to see how amazing they are through his eyes, a bit of awe perhaps?

Alternatively, we also have Dalinar/Adolin's perspective, we see both, all in one action filled scene which makes a nice opener for the movie's main narrative.

This way, we can have Kaladin help with the injured afterwards and when asked, he can simply say he used to be a surgeon's son. The scene would also established Kaladin's fighting abilities: short and sweet, all characters are introduced.

For the rest, well, I would start the movie with the chasmfiend hunt. Dalinar's arc would then kick in with the visions, his best-friend son, his mouthy son, and so on. Elhokar doesn't need to be introduced more than have him just be the king: nothing more is needed.

I am not sure we need to see the bridge runs before Kaladin is force to have them, perhaps just have Sadeas and Dalinar talk about them?

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Following with my idea above, would you settle for one of Kaladin's first scenes being when he joins the army? It'd introduce Kaladin and Tien right off the bat(getting a hunger games vibe from that scene now..), and start the connection between Kaladin and Amaram, rather than introducing him in the scene where he condemns Kaladin to slavery.

I certainly understand why having Adolin helps counterbalance Dalinar in his arc, but given that most of the Adolin-Kaladin dynamic is in WoR after the battle of the Tower, I am unsure about the love triangle for the purpose of the timeline rather than the storyline. Having some of that dynamic during WoR is acceptable as long as they don't go overboard with it, but not in WoK, as it just isn't as feasible to forge. Giving Kaladin more story as a soldier means he isn't on the plains for more of the story, so he cannot even participate in a triangle. By all means you could have Shallan at the plains ahead of schedule so that she can have a romance with Adolin, but save the triangle for the next movie so that it wont feel rushed.

I think Kaladin doesn't need to be on the border army: his story can happen just the same on the Shattered Plains. That setting is not important. We don't necessarily need to see Tien, it is a nice to have, but not a firm requirement. We could have more of Kaladin's backstory in the second movie too. I definitely agree Kaladin needs to be introduced as a soldier before he is being made a slave. Do we tell the whole story with Amaram and his brother? I am unsure, maybe. It is a good story, but hard to implement. There might be a way though.

Well, my idea to kick the love triangle early on is to have a bit romance in the movie as I do help it would help conquer larger audiences.

The romance with Adolin should definitely wait until the second movie, but the announcement of the casual with Adolin should be in WoK, just to get the viewers marinate a bit.

16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's been generally accepted that the Szeth interludes for WoK and the Eshonai Interludes for WoR should stay for the movies, even if the others all get axed. Szeth's interlude arc leads up to him joining Taravangian, so while it wouldn't exactly bring up the Diagram, we'd see the Silent Gatherers and get both Szeth and Taravangian positioned for book 2. This line is to Maxal as well as you, but for Taravangian's reveal at the end to have an impact, we should see the simple side of him in that scene with him, Jasnah and Shallan in Kharbranth. You can fast-forward most of Shallan's early arc to have her at the plains in WoK, but since you don't want Kaladin to just "show up" at the plains, don't make Shallan just show up either.

Given your statement about how switching between too many things is too much shuffle for a non-established franchise, what do either of you think about the layout of Elantris? 3 primary perspectives, generally rotating between each of them every few chapters so that they all progress at an even pace. Ignoring anything related to the actual story, would that format actually work in a film medium, in any capacity?
I was thinking that if it would work, then that could help solve this issue. Shallan and Dalinar's arcs would somewhat join together via Adolin, so it would eventually only be swapping between 2 separate arcs, and even then, they are all at the plains so it could be perceived as parts of one bigger story, rather than disconnected arcs.

I am really unsure about Szeth and Eshonai... Really unsure. I think I would rather wait to read the next book to see where they go and have a better idea of what needs to be tell and what can be skipped or merged or changed. An idea I had, perhaps have Szeth "kill" Jasnah? Merge stories?

In my idea, Kaladin is already on the Plains, so no travel. I think it pointless he'd be a soldier far-away. He can do that on the Shattered Plains, Tien can die on the Shattered Plains. Shallan can just arrive as she arrive to Karbranth on the book, this works, I think.

I am trying to think of how all three story arcs could be established together. My idea to have all story arcs happen on the Shattered Plains removes the issues, but we lose Karbranth: it is very hard to decide what would make the best movie. One thing is a given, characters need to be strong and the viewers need to develop emotional attachment to them. They also have to understand what the story is about. One thought I had, Star Wars did follow more than one arc in various locations, but it only happen in the second movie when characters are better established.

If Kaladin is on the Plain and his arc is more integrated to Dalinar's then Karbranth perhaps work better, but Shallan has to make it to the plans within the first movie. The treck to get there has to be shortened.

Rhaegar'Elin · March 2, 2017

I agree with maxal: what works for a media doesn't work necessarily for another and a movie adaptation has to tighten the book story. So, I think it will be good for the movie to set Shallan's story arc on the Shattered Plains.

Taravangian could be introduced in a political travel to the Shattered Plains: at one of Elhokar's party, maybe Dalinar want to strike a deal for using his healers or maybe Taravangian is worried for the War of Reckoning and the chaos in Jah Keved or others thing. We will learn he is the King of Kharbranth, of his Hospitals and we will see him as a good grandpa: maybe he can interact a little with Jasnah and Shallan like in the book (but nothing too long).

Then, at the end of the movie we have his confrontation with Szeth in Kharbranth followed by Taln's post-credits scene.

Of course, Taravangian's introduction will depend on how big his role will be in the next book but this is just for say, all in all, I think a WoK movie will work well if set entirely on the Shattered Plains.

The One Who Connects · March 3, 2017

21 hours ago, maxal said:

I am not sure we need to see the bridge runs before Kaladin is force to have them, perhaps just have Sadeas and Dalinar talk about them?

I was thinking more along the lines of showing a less Sadeas style bridge run, so that it would contrast to the brutality when Kaladin goes on his first one. But if we have a bit of the bridgemen's perspective during the little expositional bit of the Chasmfiend scene before the real action, that might work just as well, since I believe they were using Dalinar's bridges in that scene anyway.

21 hours ago, maxal said:

Well, my idea to kick the love triangle early on is to have a bit romance in the movie as I do help it would help conquer larger audiences.

I only meant it would feel rushed since I figured he could only be involved in said triangle once he was in Dalinar's service, which happened after the Tower near the end of the book. If the Tower battle were made earlier, then it risked making the movie lose the "self-contained" sense it needed to have. If you can find some workaround, then more power to you.

21 hours ago, maxal said:

For the rest, well, I would start the movie with the chasmfiend hunt. Dalinar's arc would then kick in with the visions, his best-friend son, his mouthy son, and so on. Elhokar doesn't need to be introduced more than have him just be the king: nothing more is needed.

As I mentioned in the parentheses after posting, I hadn't realized that the Chasmfiend hunt actually was his introduction to the story, so that statement from me may as well be rescinded. And I just felt like Elhokar would be perceived as only being so that Dalinar to act heroic. (In all fairness, that may be how Brandon meant to write the scene)

21 hours ago, maxal said:

I think Kaladin doesn't need to be on the border army: his story can happen just the same on the Shattered Plains. That setting is not important. We don't necessarily need to see Tien, it is a nice to have, but not a firm requirement. [...] Do we tell the whole story with Amaram and his brother? I am unsure, maybe. It is a good story, but hard to implement. There might be a way though.

Well, I was spitballing ideas for how to make Kaladin's soldier backstory work around your statement of "he can't just show up in a slave cart right at the start" but if you are having his soldier days be on the plains, rather than afar.. Biggest issue is why he would be killing a Shardbearer if he were on the plains, since it's not human vs human combat. Although, if Helaran doesn't become super important in the future of the series, he could kill a Parshendi Shardbearer and Amaram just has an assassination story in his past. Not too sure how to make that work, what with the eventual slavery thing still going forward somehow..

Edit(more thoughts): Actually, perhaps Helaran could try to kill Amaram during a bridge run, since his handlers don't seem to care about who they get rid of. Kaladin could save him, but since killed a human Shardbearer during an "important" battle while doing it, punishment must be meted out. Kaladin disagrees, but disagreeing with the Lighteyes is his MO. Sets up his vendetta against Amaram for the aftermath scene of Adolin's 4v1 fight in book 2 quite nicely.

14 hours ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

Taravangian could be introduced in a political travel to the Shattered Plains: at one of Elhokar's party, maybe Dalinar want to strike a deal for using his healers or maybe Taravangian is worried for the War of Reckoning and the chaos in Jah Keved or others thing. We will learn he is the King of Kharbranth, of his Hospitals and we will see him as a good grandpa: maybe he can interact a little with Jasnah and Shallan like in the book (but nothing too long).

I never actually considered that Taravangian's good guy persona is the type of character who could come to you. That could actually work into the narrative quite well, but the chaos in Jah Keved only starts after the interlude I-9, where Szeth kills off Hanavanar(who I believe was the current King at the time) Striking a deal for healers is probably the best idea, since it'd basically introduce both him and his hospitals. Both of which are needed for his reveal at the end to have more punch to it.

Edited March 3, 2017 by The One Who Connects
thoughts

maxal · March 3, 2017

15 hours ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

I agree with maxal: what works for a media doesn't work necessarily for another and a movie adaptation has to tighten the book story. So, I think it will be good for the movie to set Shallan's story arc on the Shattered Plains.

Taravangian could be introduced in a political travel to the Shattered Plains: at one of Elhokar's party, maybe Dalinar want to strike a deal for using his healers or maybe Taravangian is worried for the War of Reckoning and the chaos in Jah Keved or others thing. We will learn he is the King of Kharbranth, of his Hospitals and we will see him as a good grandpa: maybe he can interact a little with Jasnah and Shallan like in the book (but nothing too long).

Then, at the end of the movie we have his confrontation with Szeth in Kharbranth followed by Taln's post-credits scene.

Of course, Taravangian's introduction will depend on how big his role will be in the next book but this is just for say, all in all, I think a WoK movie will work well if set entirely on the Shattered Plains.

Yes, I think we need to be mindful of the movie we are trying to sell: it is a fantasy action-oriented movie heavy with special effects. It isn't a drama, a comedy and/or a slice of real-life: narratives which work brilliantly with those other kind of movies would probably do a disservice to SA. I also think we need to keep in mind of the targeted audience as well: this is movie is meant for entertainment. When people choose a CGI-filled movie with war scenes in a fantasist land, they do so for several reasons: they want to be mind-blown, they are looking for escapism and, more importantly, they want to be entertained. The movie thus have to deliver on these fronts and if it manages to take hold of their emotive response, then you have a commercial success and potentially a franchise.

Obviously, writing a blockbuster's scenario implies choosing at least one and preferably a few of the traditional routes these movies have used in the past. With SA, the setting is highly alien, very different: so right here the viewers will need help to immerse themselves within the movie which is why I think choosing to narrate the story in a classical way would give them the grounding they need.

Now classical doesn't mean stereotypes, boring and/or eye cringe-worthy. It merely means to make sure to include several elements of the traditional action-movie story telling within the main narrative while hinting at larger, much more complex, overarching story arc, the promise of a much more complex story yet to be told. It definitely helps Brandon's story telling is very... traditional.

This being said, I love the idea of Taravangian being a guest dignitary at one of the parties. I am still debating with myself in knowing of his story should be included within the movie or dropped: I can't say yet. I think we first need to read where it goes before making a decision: maybe it will turn out to be very minor, but maybe he will play the role of a large scale antagonist. Still, I love this idea, I think it could definitely work. Jasnah and Taranvangian can cross paths in any given settings.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I was thinking more along the lines of showing a less Sadeas style bridge run, so that it would contrast to the brutality when Kaladin goes on his first one. But if we have a bit of the bridgemen's perspective during the little expositional bit of the Chasmfiend scene before the real action, that might work just as well, since I believe they were using Dalinar's bridges in that scene anyway.

I absolutely agree. I would also point out Dalinar has bridge crews with him during the hunt: Adolin was manning of those early on. So there definitely is an opportunity to both show Dalinar's bridges and have Sadeas comment negatively on them. The hunt really, is a very good immersion: it offer the opportunity to really present the world, the class issues, the setting, the main characters all within a reasonable time frame. This is exactly the kind of scenes a good producers will take maximum opportunity of, a good producers can send a message with a few images. For instance, think of Han Solo's character's introduction of Star Wars 4: we see him in the low-life bar, he shoots the bounty hunter, we immediately know who we are dealing with.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I only meant it would feel rushed since I figured he could only be involved in said triangle once he was in Dalinar's service, which happened after the Tower near the end of the book. If the Tower battle were made earlier, then it risked making the movie lose the "self-contained" sense it needed to have. If you can find some workaround, then more power to you.

Yeah, I know. It has been one of my worries as well.... I have been trying to think of how to introduce it and ideas I had were the following, in no specific order:

- Shallan arrives to the Shattered Plains to meet with famous Jasnah Kholin. She somehow loses herself and ends up verbally sparring with a mouthy soldier wearing red, think the boots scene.

- Since Kaladin is a Sadeas's soldier and Sadeas is Dalinar's greatest ally, then their paths mingle often. I am not too sure if this can work or not, it seems like a great deal of work.

- Shallans doesn't immediately go to Jasnah, she spends time mingling around, trying to make up her mind (which allow us to learn about her plan to steal the soulcaster). Through this period, she crosses path with Kaladin, the hit each other the wrong way, but somehow always end up mingling. When Kaladin is made slave, Shallan visits him, once.

I am honestly not sure of this idea works or not. I was thinking a good scenarist might figure it out or not. This is still pending.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

As I mentioned in the parentheses after posting, I hadn't realized that the Chasmfiend hunt actually was his introduction to the story, so that statement from me may as well be rescinded. And I just felt like Elhokar would be perceived as only being so that Dalinar to act heroic. (In all fairness, that may be how Brandon meant to write the scene)

To be fair, Elhokar is a foil to Dalinar's character: he is meant to represent his guilt towards his brother's death. He doesn't need much in terms of development to fulfill this need nor does he need a lengthy introduction.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Well, I was spitballing ideas for how to make Kaladin's soldier backstory work around your statement of "he can't just show up in a slave cart right at the start" but if you are having his soldier days be on the plains, rather than afar.. Biggest issue is why he would be killing a Shardbearer if he were on the plains, since it's not human vs human combat. Although, if Helaran doesn't become super important in the future of the series, he could kill a Parshendi Shardbearer and Amaram just has an assassination story in his past. Not too sure how to make that work, what with the eventual slavery thing still going forward somehow..

Edit(more thoughts): Actually, perhaps Helaran could try to kill Amaram during a bridge run, since his handlers don't seem to care about who they get rid of. Kaladin could save him, but since killed a human Shardbearer during an "important" battle while doing it, punishment must be meted out. Kaladin disagrees, but disagreeing with the Lighteyes is his MO. Sets up his vendetta against Amaram for the aftermath scene of Adolin's 4v1 fight in book 2 quite nicely.

You make very valid points: I had completely forgotten about Helaran... Huh... I guess he could be dropped, but then again his death is likely to be used in a future Kaladin/Shallan relationship so... huh... I think we need to keep him in. So technically, Kaladin/Tien could have been sent from their small village directly to the Shattered Plains, but I haven't thought of how to introduce... Helaran.

I agree having a human Shardbearer suddenly pop up would.. difficult. Kaladin could kill a Parshendi shardbearer and carry on with his story arc, but it would completely remove Helaran which might pose a problem later on.

One of my source of worry, with the movie, is to have it scatter the viewpoints too heavily which make sink the story and/or confuse the viewers. I sincerely believe we need to see Kaladin's fall from grace in real-time and not through a flashback, but if he is on the borders, then we can't have Shallan be in Karbranth. Well, the only idea which pops into my head which would incorporate all three characters arcs within the main narrative would be to start with Kaladin being a squad-leader, leading his squad, no Shardbearer yet, just his character introduction. We see him tend to their wounds, protect them and dream of joining the fight on the Shattered Plains. We can have him and other talk of the big war to avenge the king, the awe for the lighteyes and then... we change focus to the chasmfiend hunt. We then go to my idea with the hunt, the bridges, Sadeas and Dalinar being friends and not at odds in order to make the betrayal more emotive, Adolin. It is easy to have Dalinar and/or Adolin slip in a mention of "cousin Jasnah" whom is at Karbranth which would lead us to our next focus.

After the hunt, Shards are introduced which means we can have Kaladin kill his Shardbearer within his next scene: according to action movies standard and most effective main narratives, his breaking point, his change has to happen early in the movie, so at about 20 minutes. When Amaram demotes him to slave, he could say he will get to fulfill his dream of joining the Shattered Plains fight... as a slave. We then do not need to spend time with the slave wagon, we can have Kaladin just "arrive" with the other slaves.

Shallan is a bit more difficult to draft if she is at Karbranth. We can't have her eat bread with Kasbal for half the movie.

AerionBFII · March 4, 2017

I have the best image in my head of Cinemas crammed with Sharders munching on Chowta.

Mr. Staccato · March 6, 2017

Hey guys I just realized something. Am I the only one who thinks that Vasher being Zahel in Roshar is somehow going to complicate things? I mean, I know if the movies get made they don't have to put too much backstory since they can pretty much just introduce elements over the course of the movie series - but what about Nightblood?

The bit where Nale finally revealed he had Nightblood with him was doubly shocking because a lot of people who've read TSA have also read Warbreaker, but to a movie audience that particular bit isn't going to be shocking because there isn't any context to it. Either people aren't going to be surprised because they'll be like - Oh look a dark shardblade! Wonder where that mysteriously uptight man got it? - or they'll be like - I've read the books I've seen this coming typical random things people who know the book say about movies made after them yada yada yada - and well, you see where I'm getting at.

I know this is a very minor point but I'm just very curious about this.

**Jofwu** · March 6, 2017

10 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

Hey guys I just realized something. Am I the only one who thinks that Vasher being Zahel in Roshar is somehow going to complicate things? I mean, I know if the movies get made they don't have to put too much backstory since they can pretty much just introduce elements over the course of the movie series - but what about Nightblood?

The bit where Nale finally revealed he had Nightblood with him was doubly shocking because a lot of people who've read TSA have also read Warbreaker, but to a movie audience that particular bit isn't going to be shocking because there isn't any context to it. Either people aren't going to be surprised because they'll be like - Oh look a dark shardblade! Wonder where that mysteriously uptight man got it? - or they'll be like - I've read the books I've seen this coming typical random things people who know the book say about movies made after them yada yada yada - and well, you see where I'm getting at.

I know this is a very minor point but I'm just very curious about this.

I don't think the Vasher/Nightblood background is (or will be) terribly vital. You can completely enjoy Stormlight without the context of Warbreaker, and I think that will be true going forward. In the books, I think Nightblood will be framed as some kind of very strange (artificial?) spren/shardblade. He will be explained in a context that Rosharans (and thus Stormlight-only readers) will understand. Zahel's probably not going to stand up and say, "Hey, let me explain to all of you how this sword was created on another world with a totally different magic system."

Yes, the connection and the reveal was a lot of fun for those of us in the know. But it's far from important to the story.

That said, DMG bought the rights to the entire Cosmere. No reason to assume they wouldn't give us Nighblood's background via a Warbreaker movie. It's just a question of which would come first. You can read Warbreaker second. Not as much punch to the revelations, but it probably makes more sense if you're shooting for broader appeal and not just trying to surprise a bunch of nerds like ourselves.

BeskarKomrk · March 6, 2017

11 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

Hey guys I just realized something. Am I the only one who thinks that Vasher being Zahel in Roshar is somehow going to complicate things? I mean, I know if the movies get made they don't have to put too much backstory since they can pretty much just introduce elements over the course of the movie series - but what about Nightblood?

The bit where Nale finally revealed he had Nightblood with him was doubly shocking because a lot of people who've read TSA have also read Warbreaker, but to a movie audience that particular bit isn't going to be shocking because there isn't any context to it. Either people aren't going to be surprised because they'll be like - Oh look a dark shardblade! Wonder where that mysteriously uptight man got it? - or they'll be like - I've read the books I've seen this coming typical random things people who know the book say about movies made after them yada yada yada - and well, you see where I'm getting at.

I know this is a very minor point but I'm just very curious about this.

I actually see this in exactly the opposite way. I would do that scene as a post-credits thing like Marvel does in all their movies. It's a cool thing for the people who know what's going on, and people are conditioned at that point to see that sort of thing and think "Okay, I don't know this yet but it will be important in a later movie". I don't see that connection being a problem at all. You can include Zahel in the movie and make a Warbreaker prequel later on, like with X-Men Origins: Wolverine (or even Rogue One, from a certain point of view).

The One Who Connects · March 6, 2017

13 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

Am I the only one who thinks that Vasher being Zahel in Roshar is somehow going to complicate things? I mean,[..] they don't have to put too much backstory since they can pretty much just introduce elements over the course of the movie series - but what about Nightblood?

I had a similar concern with a certain Dula in the Interludes. Demoux can just do that scene while/after filming Mistborn, but it'd be weird for Galladon to do that scene and then be on standby to come back years later for Elantris. Other option would be to have a random actor for the Interlude and cast Galladon the normal way when they make Elantris, but then you have the same issue Marvel had with who's gonna be playing the Hulk in this movie..

mirahound · March 6, 2017

I actually don't think it would be that hard to make a compelling story involving all the characters. I look at it a bit like the Fellowship of the Ring: Shallan would be Gandalf, still important to the story but often in a different place. Dalinar would be Aragorn, with hints to when he'll take center-stage, and Frodo would be Kaladin: the story is still basically his. Szeth, of course, would have the Saruman scenes. And considering Jackson significantly augmented Aragorn's significance during the first film, I could actually see the Way of Kings film adaptation having the same amount of screen-time for characters and still managing to be slightly more faithful to the books.

**Jofwu** · March 6, 2017

4 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said:

I actually see this in exactly the opposite way. I would do that scene as a post-credits thing like Marvel does in all their movies. It's a cool thing for the people who know what's going on, and people are conditioned at that point to see that sort of thing and think "Okay, I don't know this yet but it will be important in a later movie". I don't see that connection being a problem at all. You can include Zahel in the movie and make a Warbreaker prequel later on, like with X-Men Origins: Wolverine (or even Rogue One, from a certain point of view).

But Szeth's survival is pretty significant. You'd have so many casual fans who are super confused in Oathbringer.

BeskarKomrk · March 6, 2017

22 minutes ago, jofwu said:

But Szeth's survival is pretty significant. You'd have so many casual fans who are super confused in Oathbringer.

Do we have Szeth viewpoint chapters confirmed in Oathbringer? I can't remember. In any case, I think that's fine because the other characters don't know about Szeth surviving either. So if he shows up again, the casual fans will have the same reaction as the characters.

Andy92 · March 6, 2017

6 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said:

You can include Zahel in the movie and make a Warbreaker prequel later on, like with X-Men Origins: Wolverine (or even Rogue One, from a certain point of view).

I guess I need to read Warbreaker...because those references crop up a lot in SA and I have no idea what they mean lol.

maxal · March 6, 2017

18 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

Hey guys I just realized something. Am I the only one who thinks that Vasher being Zahel in Roshar is somehow going to complicate things? I mean, I know if the movies get made they don't have to put too much backstory since they can pretty much just introduce elements over the course of the movie series - but what about Nightblood?

The bit where Nale finally revealed he had Nightblood with him was doubly shocking because a lot of people who've read TSA have also read Warbreaker, but to a movie audience that particular bit isn't going to be shocking because there isn't any context to it. Either people aren't going to be surprised because they'll be like - Oh look a dark shardblade! Wonder where that mysteriously uptight man got it? - or they'll be like - I've read the books I've seen this coming typical random things people who know the book say about movies made after them yada yada yada - and well, you see where I'm getting at.

I know this is a very minor point but I'm just very curious about this.

I agree with @jofwu. Zahel/Vasher's backstory isn't required in order to enjoy WoR. If the character draws enough attention towards himself, then he might get his own spin-off movie which would more or less narrate the events of Warbreaker and potentially Nightblood as a origin movie has to explain why the character ends up where we last saw him. Thus, the movie would need to tackle the idea of world-hopping which I sincerely think should be completely left out of the first SA movies. It is way too confusing and, quite frankly, it is not really important to the story.

Adapting Warbreaker however will be an endeavor as it remains one of Brandon's least favored novel. My personal thoughts are it suffers from ill-chosen characters as most of the cast spends the entire book having no agency whatsoever which impacts the pace and increases the frustration within the readers. In other words, Vivenna does not really work as a main protagonist: as the new character in town, her task should have been to show us the wonders of awakening as she is given a huge amount of breath, but she spends more than 3/4 of the books refusing to have anything to do with it. She has literally no agency, putting all of her trust into mercenaries obviously deceiving her. Sure, she grows, but it happens too late in the story to change readers' feelings. Siri is slightly better, but while she tries to help, she has no agency and is literally powerless. . Lightsong is clueless most of the book, acting erratically without much cohesion while Vasher is entirely non-sympathetic and cryptic. So huh, the book has serious flaws which would need to be address in a future movie.

I wouldn't be surprised if producers decided to skip this one or to severely alter the main narrative to make it more dynamic.

5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I had a similar concern with a certain Dula in the Interludes. Demoux can just do that scene while/after filming Mistborn, but it'd be weird for Galladon to do that scene and then be on standby to come back years later for Elantris. Other option would be to have a random actor for the Interlude and cast Galladon the normal way when they make Elantris, but then you have the same issue Marvel had with who's gonna be playing the Hulk in this movie..

In a 2-3h movie, I fear all of the interludes will have to be dropped. Besides, the Purelake interlude serves no purpose: it makes no sense to have it in the movie, neither does it make sense to start talking about world-hopping within the first movie. I find it too confusing.

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

But Szeth's survival is pretty significant. You'd have so many casual fans who are super confused in Oathbringer.

Szeth's survival will need to be tackle with infinite care: we can't have one character die in a movie only to be seen alive within the next without any explanation. We also cannot have an unknown guy stand there waiting for Szeth "to die" just so he could revive him using a device not yet introduced within the story.

The producers will need to think long and hard on how to implement it in the most optimum way without suspending the disbelief of the viewers.

Edited March 6, 2017 by maxal

The One Who Connects · March 6, 2017

47 minutes ago, maxal said:

In a 2-3h movie, I fear all of the interludes will have to be dropped. Besides, the Purelake interlude serves no purpose: it makes no sense to have it in the movie, neither does it make sense to start talking about world-hopping within the first movie. I find it too confusing.

I realized during the discussions here that most of them would be dropped, but I had my concern about Galladon before this thread even existed, back when we were less realistic about our expectations. Making the Nalthis books a backstory-esque to Vasher was the reason why Brandon wrote them, so having that be the reason to film them seems sound.

As for your point about Warbreaker, I quite enjoyed it honestly. I actually considered it easier to adapt to film than some of the others, since it was a simple story. There were twists, but no game-breaking confusion, the "colorful" aspects of the magic could work even better on film than on paper, etc.. This is another discussion though, so I'll stop here.

Edit: About Szeth.. Both Taravangian and Nalan make references to Honorblades and Healing. Nalan even mentions bringing people back to life. So it is not completely unintroduced, but it's still taking somebody's word for it. I know it breaks your general plan, but if we have the Lift Interlude, she introduces bringing people back to life, quite literally showing it happen. There is no explanation, but it sets precedent. I feel like it's partly why we as readers didn't have to deal with suspension of disbelief.

Edited March 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects

maxal · March 7, 2017

33 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I realized during the discussions here that most of them would be dropped, but I had my concern about Galladon before this thread even existed, back when we were less realistic about our expectations. Making the Nalthis books a backstory-esque to Vasher was the reason why Brandon wrote them, so having that be the reason to film them seems sound.

As for your point about Warbreaker, I quite enjoyed it honestly. I actually considered it easier to adapt to film than some of the others, since it was a simple story. There were twists, but no game-breaking confusion, the "colorful" aspects of the magic could work even better on film than on paper, etc.. This is another discussion though, so I'll stop here.

Edit: About Szeth.. Both Taravangian and Nalan make references to Honorblades and Healing. Nalan even mentions bringing people back to life. So it is not completely unintroduced, but it's still taking somebody's word for it. I know it breaks your general plan, but if we have the Lift Interlude, she introduces bringing people back to life, quite literally showing it happen. There is no explanation, but it sets precedent. I feel like it's partly why we as readers didn't have to deal with suspension of disbelief.

Galladon doesn't need to be included within the SA movies. As of now, he has served no purpose within this story. I consider him and Demoux to be elements needing to be removed from the story in order to simply it. A movie has a restricting timeline, it can't be allowed to wander over endless minor characters having no obvious participation to the main narrative.

Galladon can introduced within a future Elantris movie as for his world-hopping, if it becomes relevant, then it should be broached then, not before.

Well, I do realize not everyone agrees with me about Warbreaker and I do realize many did enjoy the story (and I did enjoy it, I just found it ill-paced and badly cast). The comments I posted are however often mentioned. While I agree the story is simple, the setting is interesting and the magic has good potential, I maintain the story's main issue are its characters. Obviously, readers not focusing on characters wouldn't mind it, but fact is many readers do feel Warbreaker drags and Vivenna is a not an interesting main protagonist for the majority of the book. Now I say this and I do realize there likely are readers who loved her from the start, but I'd say, on the Tor.com re-read, it has come across very often. They have discussed why Vivenna doesn't work all that well as a protagonist and I have to agree with them.

The problem with Nale resurrecting Szeth isn't so much how he does it, but why he does it. In other words, we aren't given any rational as to why and how Nale came to be exactly at the right place, at the right moment to perform his miracle knowing the window frame to do it is about a few minutes. It isn't explained in the books, but I feel it is easier to brush it over in books. I don't think we can have some guy we haven't really met happen to be exactly at the right place to save Szeth. The movie story would work better if Szeth is shown to survive (while Kaladin thinks he is dead), wounded, probably dying, only to be found, at a later time, by Nale explaining how he has been looking for him. Without a proper rational, I fear the whole scene will sound like a plot device which sadly is what it currently looks like to many hardcore fans, so imagine the casual viewers.

Lift would probably have to go unless the producers have an idea as to how to fit her in. She is so remote from the cast it makes no sense to show her one scene, unless they mean to make a spin-off which is entirely possible. As far as I can see, Lift isn't really needed in WoR: her scenes could be grouped and shown into one single movie as opposed to scattered around several which would be hard to do because the actress would age. I'd rather they filmed Lift only once when she is ready to integrate the main narrative. I however would also argue we should wait to read Oathbringer before making too many decision: it might be we need Lift for other reasons.

Speaking of Lift, each time I see the Logan movie trailer, I keep thinking of the little girl as Lift... even though she isn't the right ethnicity. I thought she had the right energy.

The One Who Connects · March 7, 2017

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

While I agree the story is simple, the setting is interesting and the magic has good potential, I maintain the story's main issue are its characters.

Fair enough. I do think that a little creative script writing could rectify that while still keeping the story simple and fairly true to the book.

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem with Nale resurrecting Szeth isn't so much how he does it, but why he does it. [...] I don't think we can have some guy we haven't really met happen to be exactly at the right place to save Szeth. The movie story would work better if Szeth is shown to survive (while Kaladin thinks he is dead), wounded, probably dying, only to be found, at a later time, by Nale explaining how he has been looking for him.

I do kinda like this idea, not sure what scene it would directly follow but having one of Kaladin scenes after the fight transition to Szeth dragging himself across the ground would work rather well. Maybe have(in 1st person)him see Nalan walking towards him saying something["I've been looking for you" is a good starting point] (muffled by Szeth's rapidly decaying hearing?) and seeing the eye-closing over the screen as he dies. Szeth awakens to find himself alive, probably right where we last saw him, bloodied and all. That way we can have Nalan resurrect him with a bit more believability, and then he can then give a properly explained rationale. Depending on how the scene sounds at that point, they can cut "resurrected" and go with healing, a la "he's only mostly dead" if need be.

46 minutes ago, maxal said:

As far as I can see, Lift isn't really needed in WoR: her scenes could be grouped and shown into one single movie as opposed to scattered around several which would be hard to do because the actress would age.

About the aging thing, this is a good point. I hadn't considered that. Lift's purpose in WoR is the same reason that Szeth is in the Interludes of WoK, to give a character more personality, more development. The purpose of Lift's Interlude on the other hand, was to introduce not only her, but Nalan(kind-of), show the trouble in Azir(that Dalinar mentions in passing, so not really necessary for the movie) and showcase that you can resurrect people(which is important for later).

Also, this has a little to do with characters for later, Brandon said that Taravangian would have an interlude in Oathbringer, assuming it doesn't get moved to an actual chapter. I only say this because it leans towards him having a bigger role in the future, but as you say we will have to wait.

maxal · March 7, 2017

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Fair enough. I do think that a little creative script writing could rectify that while still keeping the story simple and fairly true to the book.

Yes. I agree. They can re-write the characters to make them more active, less passive. It is a rather standard process to slightly modify book characters in order to enhance a book story: they did it with Aragorn in LoTR.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I do kinda like this idea, not sure what scene it would directly follow but having one of Kaladin scenes after the fight transition to Szeth dragging himself across the ground would work rather well. Maybe have(in 1st person)him see Nalan walking towards him saying something["I've been looking for you" is a good starting point] (muffled by Szeth's rapidly decaying hearing?) and seeing the eye-closing over the screen as he dies. Szeth awakens to find himself alive, probably right where we last saw him, bloodied and all. That way we can have Nalan resurrect him with a bit more believability, and then he can then give a properly explained rationale. Depending on how the scene sounds at that point, they can cut "resurrected" and go with healing, a la "he's only mostly dead" if need be.

I like this idea, a lot. I feel the purpose of the last battle scene is to have Kaladin think Szeth is dead. The resurrection is only bothersome if the viewers think Szeth is really dead, dead and if it happens out of the blue without any context. I love having Szeth drag himself, bloody after his fall only to stumble upon a foot: Nale's foot. I imagine him looking up to see the Herald of Justice looking down on him as if he were a cockroach. He says something about having been looking for him: this is simple. It gives the context as to why Nale is here and it removes the feeling his arrival is too convenient.

I feel those changes are minor, they retain the purpose and the feel of the scene, they make it more visual and more plausible within the context of a movie.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

About the aging thing, this is a good point. I hadn't considered that. Lift's purpose in WoR is the same reason that Szeth is in the Interludes of WoK, to give a character more personality, more development. The purpose of Lift's Interlude on the other hand, was to introduce not only her, but Nalan(kind-of), show the trouble in Azir(that Dalinar mentions in passing, so not really necessary for the movie) and showcase that you can resurrect people(which is important for later).

Also, this has a little to do with characters for later, Brandon said that Taravangian would have an interlude in Oathbringer, assuming it doesn't get moved to an actual chapter. I only say this because it leans towards him having a bigger role in the future, but as you say we will have to wait.

Lift is problematic. She does have a purpose, but perhaps this purpose could be modified. We could glimpse Nale killing random surgebinders such as Ym and, well, we could add a few others in order to add more dread to his actions. This way, Lift's introduction can be postponed to a later time. Depending on Oathbringer, I think there are ways to work around with waiting to introduce Lift. Also, Lift's powers are regrowth which isn't the same process Nale uses to save Szeth: he uses a fabrial which we glimpsed into one of Dalinar's visions. We could use it to present the idea. We might not need Lift's power showcase, unless it is used again in Oathbringer. We do not know yet. There might be other reasons why we may need Lift.

Taravangian has had interludes in all books so far, I suspect it will be the same in Oathbringer. We have to wait and see how best to introduce his story arc into the movie.

Mr. Staccato · March 7, 2017

@jofwu @BeskarKomrk @The One Who Connects @maxal and basically everyone else who responded.

Well, I guess I see the point - it's not like TSA's appeal came from that one scene alone, everybody read Stormlight because Stormlight is, you know, AWESOME. The cameos and storyhooks are just that -- cameos and storyhooks. Basically my only fear is that unlike some books out there which get movie or series adaptations, they can afford to have scenes dropped because they're basically time wasters or page thickeners or whatnot.

But TSA is just, like, 600, 700 pages of character building and foreshadowing and so many many many things going on that I feel like the process of even converting one book into some kind of video adaptation will inevitably drop the ball on something necessary or another (I love the Harry Potter books but seriously, if you did not read any of the books, the movie logic will melt your brain into grey matter and frustrated, liquefied nerves). So okay I can live without Nightblade's cameo being not important - and I can also live with the worldhoppers at Purelake not appearing in the movie or whatever - but I just find it so frustrating that in the process of going with Stormlight first, we'll end up with so many things losing coherence and meaning.

Then again, if the thing ever gets into television, I'll probably forget my outrage for the next thirty days as I slug through the cinematic experience.

On a side note, I still think that if we're going to stick to one book, one movie, we'll either end up with a nearly two-hour spectacle focusing on the core character of the book (Movie 1 Kaladin), (Movie 2 Shallan), (Movie 3 Dalinar) alone with every interlude being dropped - or something like LoTR extended edition where every movie nearly reaches 4 hours. I can't help but think that either way I wouldn't mind haha.

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