Nightblood - So What?

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, Samaldin said:

Do we actually know if Nightblood remains on the same "powerlevel" for the whole duration it is used? Because if i remember correctly the amount of Breath/Investiture it consumes is constantly increasing while it´s drawn, so i wouldn´t be surprised if there are "powerlevels" for Nightblood (depending on the duration it´s drawn). If it would countinue to have the same powers, an increase in the consumed Investiture wouldn´t actually make that much sense to me...

On the higher "powerlevels" it could be possible to make the classical anime-cut where you can be 20m from your target and destroy the landscape^^

A plausible enough theory for the time being; As the rate of Breath/Stormlight consumption increases, so too should Nightblood's potential power output.

[shadowwisp]

45 minutes ago, hwiles said:

A plausible enough theory for the time being; As the rate of Breath/Stormlight consumption increases, so too should Nightblood's potential power output.

Very possible, WoB: " I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things. "

[DrakeMarshall]

The way I see it, it's a little bit like a game of rock paper scissors.

 

A huge army could beat a guy wielding nightblood, simply because he would run out of investiture before he could kill them all and nightblood would hungrily devour his spark of life.

Super-powerful magic users (for example the Lord Ruler, era 2 Marsh, era 2 Kelsier, the God King of Hallandren, or one of the ten Heralds of the Almighty) are capable of destroying entire armies on their own with relatively little difficulty.

A guy wielding nightblood could beat super-powerful magic users, because it seems to me that nightblood is a fantastic anti-magic weapon, being immune to all forms of investiture itself and being able to cut things in the spiritual realm (the source of all magic).

 

So... Cosmere themed rock / paper / scissors: Nightblood / Army / God Emperor

 

 

 

Also, on an unrelated tangent... The way I see it, there are two radiant orders that would have been a good match of nightblood. The Skybreakers and the Dustbringers. The Skybreakers because they are supposed to judge the evil and good and destroy the evil. The Dustbringers, because their primary purpose is destruction, and they hold no illusions about that and focus their destructive capabilities on obviously evil forces like voidbringers.

It's sort of a shame that nightblood ultimately fell into the hands of a Skybreaker and not a Dustbringer. Because I don't think heavy-handedness is a good trait for someone carrying nightblood around...

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:18 PM, hwiles said:

I'm hearing a lot that Nightblood wouldn't be effective in a large scale conflict, but I'm not so sure I agree.  Consider the following:

I don't think this would work, because Nightblood makes the winner of the fight for him commit suicide - so the effect won't get "spread" by people running around with the sword. You'd only get a couple dozen people, so this still comes out way inferior to using the Breaths to build a massive Lifeless army.

Nightblood isn't useless in a large battle, but the powers we've seen make him far inferior in large-scale combat to thousands of Lifeless.

On 2/3/2017 at 9:44 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

@Jondesu 

It's possible that Vasher was thinking about the Cosmere long-term when he killed her. They had already been to other worlds and he could've potentially seen how strong a trump weapon such as Nightblood could've been, especially if Shashara had managed to refine the process and eliminate some of the more critical flaws.

Possibly, but that chapter 55 annotation implies that multiple Nightbloods would be a huge problem on Nalthis.

And I don't think Nightblood would be that powerful against other Cosmere beings as long as they knew enough to stay out of range (and given that it smokes and nauseates everybody, it's pretty obviously magical and major bad news). It is probably immune to most things, but the wielder is vulnerable. A Coinshot or Mistborn's coins, an Elantrian's Aon Daa, a gun, even a bow win against Nightblood.

On 2/3/2017 at 11:56 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

There is also the fact that in the book, Vasher imagines an army of Lifeless wielding Nightbloods. True, a single sword would likely not influence a battle by much, but even a small group of them could prove damaging, especially if Lifeless are able to wield Nightblood without needing extra Breaths.

Oh, an army of Nightblood-wielders would be scary... but no one seems to have the Breath available to actually do that. No one but the God-Kings (and the 5 Scholars, I guess) ever hit 9th Heightening. To make 50 Nightbloods would take 75,000 Breaths (25k for 9th Heightening and 1k per sword).

If Breath was that available, Hallandren would be full of 5th Heightening immortals (2,000 Breaths for 5th)... but we're told even the rich who buy Breath to extend life rarely go past 1st. That's just ~50 Breaths.

And if Lifeless could wield Nightblood without being drained, I think it would be weaker -- in the Cosmere, power has to come from somewhere even with magic. It might still act like a Shardblade, since Shardblade-cutting seems to be a function of what they are rather than something that requires power input.

[Samaldin]

But we know Nightblood decided the battle of twilight falls and with it the everwar so it must have some large scale applications (i also base this on Lightsongs vision where he saw a woman (forgot the name) with Nightblood in the center of the painting. So itwas either important enough that it was painted 300 yeats later or to be put in by Endowment)

[cometaryorbit]

56 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

But we know Nightblood decided the battle of twilight falls and with it the everwar so it must have some large scale applications

I don't think it decided the war, but that annotation for Ch 55 certainly strongly implies that if multiple Nightbloods were created, they could change the nature of war on Nalthis. But what could those greater-scale powers/applications be, and how do they fit with its known powers/nature?

[Vissy]

It could just be that they fed an entire highstorm of investiture to Nightblood and let it loose on the battlefield. Brandon's said before that Nightblood can do some "pretty freaky stuff" when you feed it serious amounts of I.

[Yata]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And if Lifeless could wield Nightblood without being drained, I think it would be weaker -- in the Cosmere, power has to come from somewhere even with magic. It might still act like a Shardblade, since Shardblade-cutting seems to be a function of what they are rather than something that requires power input.

I can't honestly say for sure but Nightblood's passive boost (without Investiture needed) seems to compatible with A-Pewter. A single Lifeless with this boost may be a serious threat. If the Lifeless dies...another Lifeless may pick Nightblood and continue.
Notice as other said that Nightblood is a prototype. So in Vasher's mind the threat of Awakened Steel is more about Nightblood-like weapon but more trustful. Imagine a Nightblood who choose who could hold him. If an enemy pick up, it forces him to kill himself and let only the ally to weild it.

[Tarion]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Oh, an army of Nightblood-wielders would be scary... but no one seems to have the Breath available to actually do that. No one but the God-Kings (and the 5 Scholars, I guess) ever hit 9th Heightening. To make 50 Nightbloods would take 75,000 Breaths (25k for 9th Heightening and 1k per sword).

If Breath was that available, Hallandren would be full of 5th Heightening immortals (2,000 Breaths for 5th)... but we're told even the rich who buy Breath to extend life rarely go past 1st. That's just ~50 Breaths.

I think its worth remembering why Breaths are as limited as they are - Because they've been spent. Between the 40,000 Breaths invested in the army (which needs further Breath every few years for maintenance), the who knows how many invested in the thousand Phantoms (Presumably more than just 1 per Lifeless, as it's also animating the stone and so is further from the human form. In his lecture, Vasher says it can take up to "hundreds" of Breaths to make a Lifeless, depending on Commands), and the 50,000 sat inside the God King (Plus an extra Breath or two a week over 300 years, meaning he should be sat somewhere between 65,000 and 80,000). You'e also got ~2000 a year draining away into the rest of the Returned. 

If a God King wanted to make a set of Nightbloods, they could. If Hallandren decided to switch to human soldiers instead of Lifeless, it could amass a set of Nightbloods within a matter of years, which makes a lot of sense economically, because they've got no maintenance costs when they're not being used. And once it starts, it'll never stop. Nightblood likely can't be destroyed, so every one that gets made sticks around forever. And because you need a Nightblood style sword to counter Nightblood, the more of them there are, the more urgent it becomes to create your own. Think about Shardblades on Roshar for the arms race that Nightblood would provide. 

[Yata]

@Tarion I agree with the Breath avaliability.

But in the modern era, Hallandren build all the lifeless with a single Breath. The Manywar thanks to the one-breath-Lifeless-command and everyone may began to build a Lifeless Army with little Breath.

The Kalad's Phantom themself are probably made with a single Breath (remember that Vasher cheated awakening skeleton)...so the Lifeless are really cheap to make, also advanced one.

[Tarion]

Just now, Yata said:

@Tarion I agree with the Breath avaliability.

But in the modern era, Hallandren build all the lifeless with a single Breath. The Manywar thanks to the one-breath-Lifeless-command and everyone may began to build a Lifeless Army with little Breath.

The Kalad's Phantom themself are probably made with a single Breath (remember that Vasher cheated awakening skeleton)...so the Lifeless are really cheap to make, also advanced one.

I'm with you on the modern lifeless (Hence 40,000 Breaths - the strength of the army, IIRC). However, I'm not certain that the Phantoms would take just one Breath. Significantly reduced, because of the skeletons, but I think that they still must be harder to Awaken than regular Lifeless. If nothing else, they'd replace regular Lifeless very quickly once the secret got out and that's a fairly terrifying future for Nalthis. I'd assume that at the very least, they'd need a slightly different Command to animate the stone along with the body, and I doubt that Command would be as efficient as the standard one. 

I'll add it to the ridiculously long list of things I want to ask at a signing... 

[Yata]

7 minutes ago, Tarion said:

they'd need a slightly different Command to animate the stone along with the body, and I doubt that Command would be as efficient as the standard one. 

I'll add it to the ridiculously long list of things I want to ask at a signing... 

I think the Command is the same, simply you need a more complex Mental Image...probably beyond the skilled Awakener's ability.

We see too much in the book "Vasher do things"...but he is probably the best Awakener in the planet. Your standard is too high

[+hwiles]

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

.............

Oh, an army of Nightblood-wielders would be scary... but no one seems to have the Breath available to actually do that. No one but the God-Kings (and the 5 Scholars, I guess) ever hit 9th Heightening. To make 50 Nightbloods would take 75,000 Breaths (25k for 9th Heightening and 1k per sword).

If Breath was that available, Hallandren would be full of 5th Heightening immortals (2,000 Breaths for 5th)... but we're told even the rich who buy Breath to extend life rarely go past 1st. That's just ~50 Breaths.

..............

They do have the Breaths available, people just don't want to use it needlessly...Near as I can tell, most of the people in the capital aren't drabs, they just don't feel adequately incentivized to trade/sell their Breath. I assume if they came to a state of open warfare Hallandrens would be compelled to relinquish their Breath for the war effort; considering the widespread acceptance of military drafts, conscription, rationing, and taxation throughout human history, I feel like this is a totally reasonable assumption.

To your second point, Breaths are relatively expensive, and it would probably be viewed as incredibly selfish and crummy for a person to stockpile Breath for just themselves.  IE: if you have a wife and three kids, buying Breath soley for yourself would be a crappy thing to do and unlikely to go unremarked on.  If you drained tremendous amounts of money out of your business or land ventures for the purpose of enriching yourself with Breath, your partners and subordinates would definitely take notice; money lenders would be unlikely to deem the immortality of a single person to be a worthwhile investment.  Once you become immortal the concepts of debt and borrowing start to break down slightly and skipping town, ditching your debt, and starting over fresh becomes a much more viable option.

Basically, there are a lot of economic factors that would work to prevent the rise of more than a bare handful of immortals in a society.  I think people would generally be jealous and mistrustful of them, which is bad for both the political and business endeavors needed to accumulate Breaths.

Edit: Plus, Vasher literally killed his wife because she was going to spread knowledge of awakening metal.  More often than not, Vasher has displayed deep empathy for others, keen intelligence, vast knowledge, and rational and precise judgement.  He's had some slip ups and lost his temper a time or two, but he's probably not a psychopath.  I'm not suggesting he's always right and moral, but I will suggest that his concerns that the creation of more Nightblood-like constructs would constitute an unacceptable atrocity are more likely to be valid than invalid.

Edited February 6, 2017 by hwiles

[Spoolofwhool]

Just a note I'd like to make, since it's something which is starting to get repeated. It appears more that Vasher killed Shashara to prevent the spread of Type 4 Awakened Entities than the knowledge of awakening metal. The two don't necessarily appear to be linked. 

[The One Who Connects]

On 2/3/2017 at 5:25 PM, swieczq said:

There was a mention in Warbreaker that can suggest that breaths needed for creating such weapon can be taken by force (not given willingly “the way it was always supposed to work” ).

The way it was meant to work sounds familiar, but I don't think he mentioned taking Breath by force... I'll have to reread yet another book :/

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

Vasher literally killed his wife because she was going to spread knowledge of awakening metal. [..] I will suggest that his concerns that the creation of more Nightblood-like constructs would constitute an unacceptable atrocity are more likely to be valid than invalid.

As Spool said, these two statements are not the same thing. Awakening Metal is just like awakening rope or cloth, just more difficult to do, and a more durable material.
Nightblood-like constructs (Type IV Entities) is awakening anything (metal, rope, cloth) in such a way that it develops sentience.

And what that means is that a Type IV can be made at a much lower Heightening if the correct commands are known. They would not be as useful in battle since they aren't metal and/or swords, but if the consumption of Investiture and the granting of uncertain "powers" is an inherent quality of a Type IV, then Vasher made the correct decision.

---

Side note: I'm directly arguing the Coppermind page now since it's old, but one quick thing about Kalad's Phantoms. They lack the sentience required to make them a Type IV, where they are currently placed on that page. They are Lifeless, which should make them Type II Automatically. Would you say that is correct @Spoolofwhool?

[TJStephens11]

Is it possible that Odium's champion ends up with Nightblood?  Unlimited investiture from Odium being pumped into his champion, wielding Nightblood...  Seems like a dangerous situation.   Not only would he be fighting one on one against Honor's champion, but he could also probably do some serious damage to the minds of an opposing army.

This is my first post here, I have been lurking for a while, but this topic has drawn me out of the shadows.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

Yes. IIRC, they're awakened skeletons encased in stone, meaning they should be Type 2s.

Type IVs not made out of metal might not be as useful in battle. (though a spear with a wooden head magically enhanced could be fairly powerful.) However, I can see a lot of versatility from using Type 4s even if they aren't shardblade-class objects. (Generally defined as highly invested magical objects.) I'm too lazy to come up with many uses, but one off the top of my head is an archiver entity which would remember information told to it. In other worlds, basically a sentient coppermind that wouldn't require removing memories.

Once again, I think it was about the potential. Creating an armory of Nightbloods would be a waste. Improving Nightblood's design and creating Type 4s with other game-breaking applications could be very powerful if the knowledge is wide-spread. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Fezzik]

What if the creation of type iv entities is when the breaths don't have to be willingly given? What if shashara created Nightblood at that battle and all those thousand soldiers just had the life sucked out of them?

[Yata]

4 minutes ago, john203 said:

What if the creation of type iv entities is when the breaths don't have to be willingly given? What if shashara created Nightblood at that battle and all those thousand soldiers just had the life sucked out of them?

This have no sense...first of all "how did she steal breath ?" but much more.

Nightblood were created before the battle, they give it another name and Nightblood have time to know all the 5 Scholars quite well. Nightblood recive its actual name only after the battle. Once Vasher and Wife saw the effect of Nightblood's power.

Then Vasher saw the risk in Nightblood's existence and decide to kill his wife to stop the knowledge.

[The One Who Connects]

13 minutes ago, TJStephens11 said:

Is it possible that Odium's champion ends up with Nightblood?  Unlimited investiture from Odium being pumped into his champion, wielding Nightblood...  Seems like a dangerous situation.

I like the idea, but there are 2 issues I have would about this. 1) the sword amplifies the wielder's bloodlust causing him or her to slaughter anyone nearby and then commit suicide with the blade. This is separate from consuming the spark of life, so I imagine that Odium's champ could only hold it for so long unless they were in an enormous mass of people all rushing towards him. 2) Once drawn, Nightblood becomes incredibly powerful. Its voice becomes overpowering. Insert debate over whether Nightblood or Odium would have the stronger mental control over the wielder..

7 minutes ago, john203 said:

What if the creation of type iv entities is when the breaths don't have to be willingly given? What if shashara created Nightblood at that battle and all those thousand soldiers just had the life sucked out of them?

I don't think the blade was created during the battle, because the knowledge of that would be very difficult/near impossible to hide by only killing Shashara. This next one is personal preference, but I don't think "Scholars" would try something like that outside of a controlled environment.

[swieczq]

38 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The way it was meant to work sounds familiar, but I don't think he mentioned taking Breath by force... I'll have to reread yet another book :/

You're right, there was no direct mention of taking breath by force, it's just... there was no mention at all how exactly was the Nightblood made. The only info we have is about these 1000 Breaths and the 9'th Heightening.

6 minutes ago, Yata said:

This have no sense...first of all "how did she steal breath ?" but much more.

There's a theory that Nightblood is a hemalurgic spike, which steals Breath. It would support the suspicions about taking breath by force, and could add to Vasher fear of creating another blade like this.

Well, we probably won't know until Nightblood (the book) comes out

[Yata]

7 minutes ago, swieczq said:

There's a theory that Nightblood is a hemalurgic spike, which steals Breath. It would support the suspicions about taking breath by force, and could add to Vasher fear of creating another blade like this.

This is impossible. Brandon keeps separate the stories and the magic...at least for the "main character", in Nightblood (book) use the Hemalurgy as explaination for Nightblood (sword)'s existence will be a mess.

Much more it's states somewhere that Type IV entities are possible also from Stone...They would work differently but possible.

Lastly....Breath are not stealable with Hemalurgy

[The One Who Connects]

13 minutes ago, Yata said:

This is impossible. Brandon keeps separate the stories and the magic...at least for the "main character", in Nightblood (book) use the Hemalurgy as explaination for Nightblood (sword)'s existence will be a mess.

While I agree with you that making Nightblood a spike would be.. messy to explain and all, there was an actual response to that premise. Nightblood, and subsequently normal Shardblades, cannot be used as spikes because they are already "full" of Investiture.

[DrakeMarshall]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

@Tarion I agree with the Breath avaliability.

But in the modern era, Hallandren build all the lifeless with a single Breath. The Manywar thanks to the one-breath-Lifeless-command and everyone may began to build a Lifeless Army with little Breath.

The Kalad's Phantom themself are probably made with a single Breath (remember that Vasher cheated awakening skeleton)...so the Lifeless are really cheap to make, also advanced one.

Pretty sure it said in the book that the phantoms took around 100, actually. I would pull up quote but my computer is about to die, sorry.

[paollus]

Surely the key is rather in the potential of future swords (or other awakened items) rather than simply in Nightblood itself. 

Imagine if the process were refined, the kinks worked out and a more specific command were devised?