Nightblood - So What?

[cometaryorbit]

I don't get the whole deal with Nightblood. Why is he treated as such an ultimate weapon, to the point that Vasher was so horrified by the idea of making more that he killed his wife to keep the knowledge from getting out?

Apparently, Vasher was truly shocked by seeing Nightblood used in the Battle of Twilight Falls... but why? He doesn't seem like a terribly effective weapon in a large scale battle - too obvious. Nightblood would kill anyone he hits, but it's pretty obvious - a wielder would seem to become an obvious target for arrows.

I guess he could be thrown -- he can cause people in a small area to kill each other -- but that would be risky, since one of the enemy might be able to use him.

I mean, apparently he can do something impressive in a war, because the Warbreaker Chapter 55 annotation says:

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If this war were allowed to progress, Idris would be able to draw allies from across the mountains (as I mentioned earlier), and Yesteel’s ability to create swords like Nightblood would end with T’Telir falling and then the entire world being cast into chaos and destruction.

But what could that be? None of the observed powers - enhancing his wielder's strength and speed even without being drawn, melting stuff that's hit into smoke, causing people nearby to kill each other -- seem to have effect beyond a personal scale/very small area.

Also, you need to be 9th Heightening to make another Nightblood, and, from the Warbreaker Ars Arcanum:

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The only known people ever to reach the Eighth Heightening and above are the Hallandren God Kings.

(Although presumably Vasher and Shashara must have...)

Plus, Nightblood is very expensive in Breath to use. Taking all the required Breath into account (getting to the Ninth Heightening, actually making the swords, and the Breath needed to wield them and survive) it seems unlikely that making more Nightbloods would be a worthwhile investment of Breath compared to a Lifeless army.

So what's the "extra" power that makes Nightblood so significant?

[Elenion]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

So what's the "extra" power that makes Nightblood so significant?

There are a lot of people on the forums that are better-suited to answer this than I, but here goes.

1. Nightblood is the only known object in the Cosmere that can cut through all three realms, Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. With a Lifeless army, sure you could subjugate nations more efficiently, but they would be completely ineffective against Cognitive beings and Shards. A Shardblade, for comparison, cuts in both the physical and cognitive realms, but not the spiritual. So basically, Nightblood is a Shardblade but on Realmatic steroids.

2. Nightblood's great cost to make is one of the things it so powerful. The more highly-Invested an object is, the more resistant it is to other Investiture. (Think of Investiture as "magic power".) You can see Investiture resistance in Bands of Mourning, where the Bands appear to be invisible to Steelsight. That isn't some warding enchantment; that's the Investiture in them. A Lifeless army would be at the mercy of Investiture-based attacks such as Radiant Division on Roshar, Soothing/Rioting Takeover on Scadrial, etc. Nightblood, on the other hand, would be completely immune to all forms of Investiture used against it.

So basically, if you're talking about wiping out the next kingdom over, a Lifeless army is more efficient than Nightblood. But if you plan on going up against things like Shards, Cognitive Shadows, and hostile Investiture-users, Nightblood is the far superior choice.

Hope this helps, and I'm sure within a few hours someone will be here with a better explanation, complete with all of the Words of Brandon about Nightblood.

[Thunder_93]

I agree with all points of Elenion.

The thing I think makes it also really dangerous, is what it does to Investiture.

It sucks in all Investiture it somehow can, and destroys (or more likely corrupts) it (remember, the black smoke evaporating from it's blade is corrupted Investiture) We simply don't know yet what it exactly does to consumed Investiture.

Maybe it's not that efficient in a battle against a whole army, but regarding to Nightblood I like to think about the following saying:

We've won the battle, but lost the war (I don't know if the quote is 100% correct )

With a weapon that destroys on all Realms, plus can destroy/corrupt Investiture, the right guy might do some pretty bad things to a shardworld, or even the whole cosmere

Edited February 3, 2017 by Thunder_93

[Vissy]

I wonder if Nale even knows the full extent of how terrible Nightblood is.

[Thunder_93]

Probably not.

But on the other side, can you really say Nightblood is terrible?

It's just really powerful, but in the right hands it can do good as well.

 

Just 2 random thoughts I had about Nightblood:

-What actually happens when Nightblood collides with a normal shardblade? Does that work like 2 normal shardblades, or would Nightblood even destroy a shardblade, as it cuts on an additional realms?

-Surely everyone remembers Nightblood's intent. "Destroy Evil". As it destroys/corrupts Investiture, what can we make out of that? Probably Adonalsium and his Investiture wasn't that good at all - and that's why the original 16 Shardholders splintered him.
On the other hand we know Nightblood isn't that good at judging. But still... Maybe the corrupting of Investiture isn't that a random act of Nightblood, but on purpose...

 

But like I've said, just some random and strange thoughts

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

-What actually happens when Nightblood collides with a normal shardblade? Does that work like 2 normal shardblades, or would Nightblood even destroy a shardblade, as it cuts on an additional realms?

This is bein RAFOed several Time...of course we need to see it on screen but I think he may really shatter a Shardblade and hurt the Spren.

3 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

-Surely everyone remembers Nightblood's intent. "Destroy Evil". As it destroys/corrupts Investiture, what can we make out of that? Probably Adonalsium and his Investiture wasn't that good at all - and that's why the original 16 Shardholders splintered him.
On the other hand we know Nightblood isn't that good at judging. But still... Maybe the corrupting of Investiture isn't that a random act of Nightblood, but on purpose...

This is quite false or at least not a logic implication.

Nightblood's command is "destroy evil" but is has no understanding of what is evil and what not (to be honest it's a meaningless definition at all also for a fully developed human being) so it choose what is evil with its own criteria...Nightblood has not an "Intuitive Evil detector", it simply use a raw selection for possible weilder and once the weilder is choose. Nightblood simply trust of weilder's judgement.

 

As last point, Nightblood's power become greater as much Investiture consumes. We actually never see what kind of effects Nightblood may starts if it is deeply feeded....Vasher maybe did, and he was afraid of what he saw

Edited February 3, 2017 by Yata

[Oversleep]

46 minutes ago, Yata said:

This is bein RAFOed several Time...of course we need to see it on screen but I think he may really shatter a Shardblade and hurt the Spren

Actually we know that NIgthblood can consume spren; take it as you want in regard to clashing with Shardblades:

Quote

Question: If sprens are pieces of the god power, and investiture is the power of the god, then can Nightblood consume spren?
Answer: He could theoret- Yeah, he could totally consume spren. There's not even any theoretically to that.
source

BTW, I don't see how Nightblood is a such terrible weapon. I mean, in terms of fighting enemies it's INFERIOR to regular Shardblade. Shardblades don't require you to feed them Investiture. Additionaly the longer you wield Nightblood the faster it consumes Investiture, that's crazy since it's a quadratic increase of how much Investiture you need.

Of course, in a world without Shardblades Nightblood is quite scary, but in terms of efficiency you're much better off with Lifeless army.

[Yata]

54 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Of course, in a world without Shardblades Nightblood is quite scary, but in terms of efficiency you're much better off with Lifeless army.

I suppose we have to check how much damage Nightblood may do with his cover on.  Because everytime he was used, the damage are quite insane for a weapon of his kind and no edge (with the cover).

Someone weilding Nightblood is capable of piercing his own chest (skin, muscles, bone)...this say something about his efficiency as weapon (without requite Investiture)

[Spoolofwhool]

Yes. As @Yata says, the physical augmentation granted by Nightblood passively shouldn't be taken that lightly. We've seen that it essentially not only gives regular people the strength needed to wield a sword in scale for a Returned effectively, but also the additional strength needed to hold the sword and ram it through your own chest. I could be wrong, but I think that would be extremely hard even with a regular sword, so for a larger sword, you would need a fairly high amount of strength.

Overall, it is true that Nightblood has some glaring flaws. However, let's not forget that it was a prototype, just a test to prove that the existence of Type IV Awakened Objects was possible. Perhaps it's not exactly the power of Nightblood which Vasher feared and killed Shashara for, but rather what could've been produced had she taken time to improve upon Nightblood's design. 

In any case, I think Nightblood is dangerously powerful. However, it's power isn't seen in mundane combat as people seem to be thinking, but rather that it is a trump to practically every other invested weapon. Unlike what Oversleep said, I think it is more scary in a world with shardblades, as the holder possesses the power to potentially permanently destroy other shardblades. The army the holder is with would potentially safe from shareholder opposition, as the opposition may be unwilling to field their shardblades in fear that they would be destroyed, while the holder's allies could still field shardblades of their own.

[Vissy]

If Nightblood can consume spren, wouldn't it be extremely dangerous for any KR to fight against a person wielding that blade? Since any clash of shardblade vs. Nightblood would risk just killing the spren. It'd be a KR's literal nightmare.

[Nashan’Elin]

Can Nightblood feed off of the Investiture of the things it kills? For instance, taking the Breath from Lifeless? Because if it can do that, the power requirement is a lot less important in a large scale battle. Effectively, it would become more dangerous the longer it is used and the more people it kills. 

[king of nowhere]

The point about it being not particularly powerful for large scale warfare still stands, especially on nalthis where it was made (and which was the total sum of vasher's knowledge when he decided the weapon was too dangerous). It is too expensive, a lifeless army seems a better use of 1000 breaths. On the other hand, it has other advantages, if you give it to an assassin for example. or again, lifeless need maintenance and eventually wear down after a while, but nightblood lasts forever; a nation accumulating those will eventually gain an edge over one focusing on lifeless. regardless of it all, maybe it is true that it wouldn't have changed the world, but vasher made a decision from his point of view, it doesn't mean the decision was perfect.

[Jondesu]

I have to agree with @cometaryorbit here.  Nightblood is a devastating weapon on a Cosmeric level, sure, but in the context of Shashara using it in that one battle, we're missing something.  As a single weapon on a field of enemies, what we've seen still isn't devastating enough to warrant murdering your own wife just to stop the knowledge from existing.  There has to be more (which we'll probably find out eventually).

[Spoolofwhool]

@Jondesu 

It's possible that Vasher was thinking about the Cosmere long-term when he killed her. They had already been to other worlds and he could've potentially seen how strong a trump weapon such as Nightblood could've been, especially if Shashara had managed to refine the process and eliminate some of the more critical flaws.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Nashan'Elin said:

Can Nightblood feed off of the Investiture of the things it kills? For instance, taking the Breath from Lifeless? Because if it can do that, the power requirement is a lot less important in a large scale battle. Effectively, it would become more dangerous the longer it is used and the more people it kills. 

From what we saw Nightblood feeds only from his weilder not from his target. Also because Vasher would say it while he kills the Lifeless in the Court of the Gods

 

About his efficiency in warfare....We don't know if some of his late ability may influence area instead of a single target. 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

There is also the fact that in the book, Vasher imagines an army of Lifeless wielding Nightbloods. True, a single sword would likely not influence a battle by much, but even a small group of them could prove damaging, especially if Lifeless are able to wield Nightblood without needing extra Breaths.

[Oversleep]

54 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

There is also the fact that in the book, Vasher imagines an army of Lifeless wielding Nightbloods. True, a single sword would likely not influence a battle by much, but even a small group of them could prove damaging, especially if Lifeless are able to wield Nightblood without needing extra Breaths.

But how could a Lifeless wield Nightblood? Lifeless cannot feed it Investiture. At least, not for long.

This line always baffled me.

[+hwiles]

I'm hearing a lot that Nightblood wouldn't be effective in a large scale conflict, but I'm not so sure I agree.  Consider the following:

1. Vasher sneaks into an enemy army camp at night carrying Nightblood
2. Vasher drops the blade in the midst of some less reputable soldiers who will be susceptible to Nightblood's bloodlust (maybe he finds some drinking or gambling)
3. The soldiers immediately kill each other as Vasher trots off
4. The winner of the fight, seeing more victims around, goes on a rampage, attacking and destroying everyone around him, throwing the camp into chaos and causing other soldiers to charge at him
5. Nightblood consumes his spark of life, killing him
6. At least one of the many other soldiers now present is probably susceptible to Nightblood's temptation and rushes in to take up the blade while those who aren't tempted are forced away from it, feeling violently ill and confused
7. Rinse and repeat until army is routed
8. The last man holding Nightblood dies, and Vasher returns to reclaim it

I think the reason Nightblood might come across as underwhelming at times is because it personally seems to prefer wielders who aren't violent psychopaths.  But if the secret of making your own Nightbloods became common knowledge, people with access to huge amounts of breath could awaken their own weapons with commands like: "Destroy people I don't like."  Even a command like "protect me" could result in a devastating and horrible weapon when Nightblood-esque constructs are involved; the dang thing can read and, to some extent, control people's minds...

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, hwiles said:

I'm hearing a lot that Nightblood wouldn't be effective in a large scale conflict, but I'm not so sure I agree.  Consider the following:

1. Vasher sneaks into an enemy army camp at night carrying Nightblood
2. Vasher drops the blade in the midst of some less reputable soldiers who will be susceptible to Nightblood's bloodlust (maybe he finds some drinking or gambling)
3. The soldiers immediately kill each other as Vasher trots off
4. The winner of the fight, seeing more victims around, goes on a rampage, attacking and destroying everyone around him, throwing the camp into chaos and causing other soldiers to charge at him
5. Nightblood consumes his spark of life, killing him
6. At least one of the many other soldiers now present is probably susceptible to Nightblood's temptation and rushes in to take up the blade while those who aren't tempted are forced away from it, feeling violently ill and confused
7. Rinse and repeat until army is routed
8. The last man holding Nightblood dies, and Vasher returns to reclaim it

 

Very, very dangerous to make it work. putting aside that sneaking into an army camp is not trivial (until the rennaissance, officiers sneaked about in the night, and if they could catch one of their own sentinels unaware, by military law they executed the sentinel on the spot; most soldiers were not executed during sentinel duty, so sneaking was hard) , but there is one other main line of disruption for this plan:

3b: the soldiers with more conscience among them escape rather than pick up the fight

4b: the winner of the camp runs out of target, kills himself

5b: the good soldier who escaped before now picks up nightblood.

now you lost your all-powerful artifact.

[swieczq]

Apart from being a shardblade in a system where such powerful items were not known, it may be not only the power of the Nightblood that terrifies Vasher. There was a mention in Warbreaker that can suggest that breaths needed for creating such weapon can be taken by force (not given willingly “the way it was always supposed to work” ). This, taken to extreme, could cause genocides, only to produce another Nightblood.

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Vasher could feel it - feel the danger in its blade, the twisted power of Breaths that had been pulled from living hosts and shoved into something unnatural.

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by swieczq
found the quote

[+hwiles]

45 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Very, very dangerous to make it work. putting aside that sneaking into an army camp is not trivial (until the rennaissance, officiers sneaked about in the night, and if they could catch one of their own sentinels unaware, by military law they executed the sentinel on the spot; most soldiers were not executed during sentinel duty, so sneaking was hard) , but there is one other main line of disruption for this plan:

3b: the soldiers with more conscience among them escape rather than pick up the fight

4b: the winner of the camp runs out of target, kills himself

5b: the good soldier who escaped before now picks up nightblood.

now you lost your all-powerful artifact.

Well, I mean...Vasher could probably just enlist with the army right?  Or join the camp followers to get in close, or pose as a person delivering food.  We're talking about one lightly armed man, with access to godlike powers, infiltrating the least protected, least reputable, and least important sector in a preindustrial war camp for 5 seconds, not sneaking into the officers tent and replacing the general with a kandra.

3c: the more morally upstanding soldiers try to stop the man killing their friends rather than flee and die, or, flee and get slashed in the back by a super-charged bloodthirsty mega-soldier wielding a sword that vaporizes people on contact.  Some probably get away, but this just adds to the general chaos and panic.

5c: the good soldier has no understanding of what happened, and keeps running for at least a few hours since he's scared out of his mind.  Or, he goes back for Nightblood, vomits everywhere, gets confused, then runs away scared.

you get your Nightblood back

[king of nowhere]

Ah, then it depends on how much the other side understands the power of nightblood. that's pretty important. half the counter to any power is knowing what it does and being sensible about it. if many people make stuff like nightblood, then they will gain the status of shardblades on roshar. even if just one side does it secretly, eventually the enemies will figure out what they're doing - not before losing loads of men, of course.

I'd say the lack of a similar armor is what makes the impact of a nightblood-wielder on a battlefield limited - it does not matter how well your sword cuts, you can still get pinned by any arrow, or by one soldier getting inside your guard. of course, you could also awaken a suit of armor with a command "protect your wearer". now that would be quite interesting to see. would the metal plates bend to catch blades and arrows? would the armor get the same telephatical powers of nightblood and give prescience to the wearer, reading the minds of his enemies and letting him know where they are going to strike? the sword + armor combo is much stronger than either alone.

[+Extesian]

Quote

The waves of men pointed toward one figure at the center. A woman, vaguely depicted by a couple of curved brushstrokes. And yet it was obvious. She stood high, as if atop a cresting wave of crashing soldiers, caught in mid-motion, head flung back, her arm upraised. Holding a deep black sword that darkened the red sky around it.

That sounds like a sword that can do more than kill individuals.

And that's on a planet where investiture is hard won. Put Nightblood on a planet where he can either eat investiture from inside a highstorm or at least be fed by thousands of invested stones, he sounds like a weapon of mass destruction, not just a weapon that's unstoppable 1 on 1.

[+hwiles]

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Ah, then it depends on how much the other side understands the power of nightblood. that's pretty important. half the counter to any power is knowing what it does and being sensible about it. if many people make stuff like nightblood, then they will gain the status of shardblades on roshar. even if just one side does it secretly, eventually the enemies will figure out what they're doing - not before losing loads of men, of course.

I'd say the lack of a similar armor is what makes the impact of a nightblood-wielder on a battlefield limited - it does not matter how well your sword cuts, you can still get pinned by any arrow, or by one soldier getting inside your guard. of course, you could also awaken a suit of armor with a command "protect your wearer". now that would be quite interesting to see. would the metal plates bend to catch blades and arrows? would the armor get the same telephatical powers of nightblood and give prescience to the wearer, reading the minds of his enemies and letting him know where they are going to strike? the sword + armor combo is much stronger than either alone.

Why even wear the armor?  Just bring it to life, hand it Nightblood, then send it in and watch it go 

[Samaldin]

Do we actually know if Nightblood remains on the same "powerlevel" for the whole duration it is used? Because if i remember correctly the amount of Breath/Investiture it consumes is constantly increasing while it´s drawn, so i wouldn´t be surprised if there are "powerlevels" for Nightblood (depending on the duration it´s drawn). If it would countinue to have the same powers, an increase in the consumed Investiture wouldn´t actually make that much sense to me...

On the higher "powerlevels" it could be possible to make the classical anime-cut where you can be 20m from your target and destroy the landscape^^

Edited February 4, 2017 by Samaldin