The future of Hemalurgy

[Itchy Savant]

Yeah that theory of mine started before we knew about ettmetal. My gut is still telling me that hemalurgy will still be key in their advanced tech.

Also random thought here and I could be wrong, but isn't FTL travel actually time travel? I'm wondering if that's what Sanderson meant, comers exploration would only require travel at light speed, not faster than it. 

[Espella]

Seems to me that in a world that definitely has some sort of afterlife, there would be concerns over the fact that hemalurgy literally rips a piece of someone's soul out.

I don't think we've really had any information on how much of the soul of a spiked person is left, aside from (SH spoilers)

Spoiler

the scene where Kelsier talks to the people who had become koloss, but those were people who had recieved spikes, not people who had attributes removed by a spike

but donating organs (which are presumably no longer of any use once your soul is separated from the body and goes to the Beyond) is a lot different than ripping off a piece of your soul (which seems like it would impact you even in the Beyond).

Even if it turns out it doesn't have an impact on the afterlife, I doubt the Scadrians would be able to figure that out without Harmony telling them (if he is even able to figure it out), and since he is not fond of hemalurgy I doubt he would do that.

[Yata]

The fact is....as far as I understood the Soul doesn't reach the Beyond, it's the Mind who reaches the Beyond and the Soul's Investiture is recycled and return to his Source.

This mean Hemalurgy didn't affect the "Human's eternal part" and instead some may argue that Hemalurgy preserves a Soul (or part of it) when instead it would be completely destroyed

Edited February 4, 2017 by Yata

[Oversleep]

WoB about afterlife has it that it has implications for the transit time in Cognitive but not for Beyond: WoB.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Oversleep

[+Extesian]

8 hours ago, Espella said:

Seems to me that in a world that definitely has some sort of afterlife, there would be concerns over the fact that hemalurgy literally rips a piece of someone's soul out.

I don't think we've really had any information on how much of the soul of a spiked person is left, aside from (SH spoilers)

  Hide contents

the scene where Kelsier talks to the people who had become koloss, but those were people who had recieved spikes, not people who had attributes removed by a spike

but donating organs (which are presumably no longer of any use once your soul is separated from the body and goes to the Beyond) is a lot different than ripping off a piece of your soul (which seems like it would impact you even in the Beyond).

Even if it turns out it doesn't have an impact on the afterlife, I doubt the Scadrians would be able to figure that out without Harmony telling them (if he is even able to figure it out), and since he is not fond of hemalurgy I doubt he would do that.

We have a WoB on the effect on a hemalurgy donor, doesn't answer these issues but says a bit on the effect on the soul and the duration of time spent after death on the cognitive (if not spiritual) realm.

Quote

QUESTION

When someone is Spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, because if you’re extra Invested, which Spiking technically does, if you have a Spike stapling a bit of someone else’s soul to yours--

QUESTION

The other way. Someone Spikes into you--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

QUESTION

Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who’s Spiking people?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hmm. Yeah. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you’re Spiking somebody, you’re ripping of the soul, so kind of, there’s not enough left to talk. I mean, you’re ripping off the soul, so it’s a bad thing. A really bad thing. So you go ‘who killed you’ and it’s just somebody who… But yes, they would go faster too.

 

[DocHoliday]

Damnation. And I was Pro-Hemalutgy Legacy prior to that WoB. Still am I think, considering there is a definitive difference between the Spiritual Investiture and the Cognitive ME going to the Beyond.

[Releaser12]

What I'm interested in is the stealing of attributes from normal people, similar to Kandra or Koloss spikes. Can they be made without killing the person? The Ars Arcanum seems to suggest that very thing. It deals with driving spikes through bind points giving the heart as an EXAMPLE, this implies that there are different bind points including non-lethal ones potentially. Also since you can make hemalurgic spikes from regular people, you could have a massive, consistent supply of spikes to use in various interesting ways.

[Releaser12]

On 1/31/2017 at 1:14 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

There's also another WoB that Harmony repossessed the pits where atium formed and the Well. Therefore, it feels unlikely that atium is the lost metal, especially considering how strongly it has been broadcasted in earlier books. Not impossible mind you.

In BoM, when Wax and Steris are at the party, Wax is using his bubble and notices an empty stand titled The Lost Metal. In addition, they don't really have many metals they could lose, all the evidence points rather strongly toward Atium being the lost metal. Of course I could be wrong, Brandon has a way of pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. The sneaky little devil. Aaah who could we possibly read without Brandon Sanderson 

[cometaryorbit]

My question is, if you can steal Strength as a "human attribute", what happens if you try to steal Strength from - say - a bull? Or use a tin spike for Senses on a dog? That wouldn't involve killing people... but it would probably alter the recipient in weird ways. One spike might not be too bad though...

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Releaser12 said:

What I'm interested in is the stealing of attributes from normal people, similar to Kandra or Koloss spikes. Can they be made without killing the person? The Ars Arcanum seems to suggest that very thing. It deals with driving spikes through bind points giving the heart as an EXAMPLE, this implies that there are different bind points including non-lethal ones potentially. Also since you can make hemalurgic spikes from regular people, you could have a massive, consistent supply of spikes to use in various interesting ways.

Actually stealing attributes is still lethal (maybe also more than Powers). It's for example the reason Kandra can't do more Blessings...Because they would need to kill a couple of dudes only to make a new Kandra (remember the Primary Blessing could not be recycled).

Notice that we don't know if the "Stealing points" are the same to the "Reciver point"

Returning to the Bindpoints, we can't say a lot. We don't know if there is a Harmless Stealing Point. Notice that to rip the Soul the wound need to be serious.

Another point is: Also if you may (for hypotesis) steal something in a completely harmless point (like the ear), you mostly still kill the subject because ripping the Soul normally result into death.

Quote

QUESTION

Hemalurgy, does the person having the metal shoved through them have to die?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It has to rip off a piece of their soul. That normally results in death.

QUESTION

Because I'm thinking you're going a bit into the future, surgery, precise things like that...

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's plausible but-- I mean it would leave the person like-- It's ripping off a piece of their soul. But the same thing happens when you give up your Breath. So you're giving up a piece of your soul. There are-- It's plausible you could take off pieces of a soul without killing the person

This WoB is quite explicit. Just a little difference from Warbreaker

Spoiler

Nalthian people are actually made with a poor Soul+ an extra cedible part...They survive without the extra.

Another human will simply mostly die, because he is not designed to survive with a ripped soul.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, Releaser12 said:

In BoM, when Wax and Steris are at the party, Wax is using his bubble and notices an empty stand titled The Lost Metal. In addition, they don't really have many metals they could lose, all the evidence points rather strongly toward Atium being the lost metal. Of course I could be wrong, Brandon has a way of pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. The sneaky little devil. Aaah who could we possibly read without Brandon Sanderson 

Yes. This was what I was referring to. We have so much evidence in the books which is just screaming "atium is the lost metal" that I feel like it would be a very good twist if the lost metal isn't atium, and would be kind of dull if it isnt. 

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes. This was what I was referring to. We have so much evidence in the books which is just screaming "atium is the lost metal" that I feel like it would be a very good twist if the lost metal isn't atium, and would be kind of dull if it isnt. 

Defining a twist as 'good' or not by what it isn't seems like a bad standard to judge future plot developments. Yes, for the Bands of Mourning, we were being misled the whole time as to whose they were. Yes, for Hero of Ages, we were being misled as to whose it was. Yes, for the Well of Ascenscion, we were being misled as to where it was. So, there's precedent for a very misleading title. But my personal favorite twist in Mistborn is the introduction of the Southerners, which is not foreshadowed by the title. The Lost Metal could very well be atium, it could very well not be, but I have confidence that neither path would detract from the enjoyability of the series.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Defining a twist as 'good' or not by what it isn't seems like a bad standard to judge future plot developments. Yes, for the Bands of Mourning, we were being misled the whole time as to whose they were. Yes, for Hero of Ages, we were being misled as to whose it was. Yes, for the Well of Ascenscion, we were being misled as to where it was. So, there's precedent for a very misleading title. But my personal favorite twist in Mistborn is the introduction of the Southerners, which is not foreshadowed by the title. The Lost Metal could very well be atium, it could very well not be, but I have confidence that neither path would detract from the enjoyability of the series.

It's a definition thing. When I said "good twist," I meant more "interesting twist," as in how much I would enjoy reading it. I meant no judgement on the quality of the plot, nor did I mean that I wouldn't enjoy it. I have no doubt it's going to be a great story, I'll just not be impressed if it turns out they atium is the Lost Metal and he makes it sound like it's a giant surprise. I won't dislike it though. 

Does this make sense? Feels a bit like a ramble but my point is that I didn't mean I would judge the plot based on the identity of the lost metal.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects]

Feb 25, 2016. Take it however you wish.

Quote

Find out more about the caesium, the exploding metal?

Brandon Sanderson

The super caesium? Well, the last Wax and Wayne book is called “The Lost Metal” so....you kinda got it...yeah.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Feb 25, 2016. Take it however you wish.

 

Maybe the title is actually suppose to be "The Last Metal," since that's what ettmetal is.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Pagerunner]

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Maybe the title is actally suppose to be "The Last Metal", since that's what ettmetal is.

It would have to be a pretty consistent typo, considering that's also how he called it in this year's SotS.

[Spoolofwhool]

20 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

It would have to be a pretty consistent typo, considering that's also how he called it in this year's SotS.

I know. It was a joke.

[Pagerunner]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

I know. It was a joke.

Believe it or not, I had seriously considered whether or not it was an actual typo for that exact rationale when he had first revealed it as the working title, and only when he called it that in a few other places (like Twitter and State of the Sanderson) was I convinced that will actually be the title.

[+hwiles]

On 2/4/2017 at 8:21 AM, Itchy Savant said:

Also random thought here and I could be wrong, but isn't FTL travel actually time travel? I'm wondering if that's what Sanderson meant, comers exploration would only require travel at light speed, not faster than it. 

Technically, you could explore the Cosmere going any speed, it would simply take an unfathomable amount of time.  Travel between Shardworlds at subluminal speeds would probably take decades (or at least years), making it somewhat of a barrier to being used as a plot element.  It's not impossible, but it does make things tricky.

In our Universe, according to Special Relativity, yes, matter (or even information, but that requires a much more abstract discussion) that was traveling through space faster than the speed of light could be described as traveling "backwards" in time.  That said, there are some weird hypothetical scenarios, the plausibility of which have not been positively or negatively demonstrated, that might allow for the cosmic speed limit to be more-or-less circumvented.

IIRC, WoB from a few years ago stated that he wasn't planning to explore backwards time travel in the Cosmere though I'm having trouble finding a source for that information.  If you can help or disprove please do.

This is a highly simplified explanation, but one proposed method for achieving FTL speeds is to artificially shorten the distance between two locations in space along a path by "bending" the space between them.  Objects moving directly between the path's endpoints (two shardworlds for example) would appear to an outside observer (IE: someone on a third shardworld) to be moving faster than the speed of light.  You can argue that this isn't technically FTL travel, but it does still produce the desired result.

Another explanation is to somehow "connect" two regions of space so that they can be traveled between without physically moving through the intervening region of space.

If Cosmere FTL travel relies on a method other than just "accelerating your spaceship until it goes faster than light," I believe there are some relatively simple controls or caveats that could be introduced to adequately prevent or explain away most time traveler paradoxes to satisfy the vast majority of readers.

Back to OP's topic, I'm skeptical that hemalurgy could be used in FTL travel, unless it was being employed to create metalborns with more than one allomantic and/or feruchemical power, but with ettmetal, this probably wouldn't be necessary.  Between time-bubbles, speed storage, and weight/mass storage, Cosmere FTL travel doesn't seem particularly farfetched, however please note that it's been stated that we haven't been told enough yet about the metallic arts and Cosmere physics to be able to logically discern specifically how Scadrians are going to achieve FTL, so it's really anyone's guess at this point.

[Releaser12]

15 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually stealing attributes is still lethal (maybe also more than Powers). It's for example the reason Kandra can't do more Blessings...Because they would need to kill a couple of dudes only to make a new Kandra (remember the Primary Blessing could not be recycled).

Notice that we don't know if the "Stealing points" are the same to the "Reciver point"

Returning to the Bindpoints, we can't say a lot. We don't know if there is a Harmless Stealing Point. Notice that to rip the Soul the wound need to be serious.

Another point is: Also if you may (for hypotesis) steal something in a completely harmless point (like the ear), you mostly still kill the subject because ripping the Soul normally result into death.

This WoB is quite explicit. Just a little difference from Warbreaker

  Reveal hidden contents

Nalthian people are actually made with a poor Soul+ an extra cedible part...They survive without the extra.

Another human will simply mostly die, because he is not designed to survive with a ripped soul.

 

From his comments it seems as though there could be non-lethal stealing points, which would allow you to steal several attributes from the same person, even if the attributes weakened you could have a useful supply of Pathian earrings. Speaking of Pathian earrings, MeLaan tells Wax that his earring has very little hemalurgic charge left. That shows there IS a hemalurgic charge at all. Does it grant him anything at all other than the ability to talk with Harmony?

[Releaser12]

Assuming that the title is The Lost Metal, could there be ANY possible other explanation for the metal to be anything but Atium? Lerasium couldn't work, they didn't really have it to lose in the first place, the same thing goes for all the other God-Metals. By process of elimination, Atium in the only remotely possible solution that I can see.

[Oversleep]

About FTL: how about sentient ships Compounding steel? (I believe I have already mentioned that possibilty somewhere) WoB implying sentient machines do have Spiritweb

[Pagerunner]

24 minutes ago, Releaser12 said:

Assuming that the title is The Lost Metal, could there be ANY possible other explanation for the metal to be anything but Atium? Lerasium couldn't work, they didn't really have it to lose in the first place, the same thing goes for all the other God-Metals. By process of elimination, Atium in the only remotely possible solution that I can see.

It's possible that harmonium was known in the days before the Lord Ruler, and lost to the Northerners sometime before Rashek's Ascension. This would probably require some very odd things to have happened in Scadrial's past before Preservation betrayed Ruin but while they were still working together. It fits well with my idea that combining the two Shards was always the desire of the original Vessels, and that Feruchemy, as a magic system, has always been of Harmony, even before Sazed held both Shards.

Likely? Not at all. Possible? Certainly.

[Releaser12]

2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

It's possible that harmonium was known in the days before the Lord Ruler, and lost to the Northerners sometime before Rashek's Ascension. This would probably require some very odd things to have happened in Scadrial's past before Preservation betrayed Ruin but while they were still working together. It fits well with my idea that combining the two Shards was always the desire of the original Vessels, and that Feruchemy, as a magic system, has always been of Harmony, even before Sazed held both Shards.

Likely? Not at all. Possible? Certainly.

I totally agree with feruchemy being of Harmony, the same idea has been brought up in conversations with my friends. I've also considered that Terrismen may be the first humans created with Ruin and Preservation working together resulting in their passive nature and once again feruchemy.

As for Harmonium, that hadn't occurred to me, I guess I'll add that to my list of possibilities. Thank you!

[Yata]

8 hours ago, Releaser12 said:

From his comments it seems as though there could be non-lethal stealing points, which would allow you to steal several attributes from the same person, even if the attributes weakened you could have a useful supply of Pathian earrings. Speaking of Pathian earrings, MeLaan tells Wax that his earring has very little hemalurgic charge left. That shows there IS a hemalurgic charge at all. Does it grant him anything at all other than the ability to talk with Harmony?

The WoB suggests that Hemalurgy mostly result in death for Soul Ripping effect also in physical relative harmless points. You may survive Hemalurgy...but it's more a matter of luck than else. Notice also that if also you find a stable way to make someone survive Hemalurgy. The result would be a poor being drab-like (maybe thanks to some Healing while the Hemalurgy is performed or other trick), if you try to steal again from this poor man, you surelly kill him (you could not have less than a Soul threesold).

 

In this case I am avoiding to considerate Soul Healing, that made the Ripped Soul grown again to be stolen again and again...but this isn't what you pointed out before.