The future of Hemalurgy

[Releaser12 he/him]

14 hours ago, Yata said:

The WoB suggests that Hemalurgy mostly result in death for Soul Ripping effect also in physical relative harmless points. You may survive Hemalurgy...but it's more a matter of luck than else. Notice also that if also you find a stable way to make someone survive Hemalurgy. The result would be a poor being drab-like (maybe thanks to some Healing while the Hemalurgy is performed or other trick), if you try to steal again from this poor man, you surelly kill him (you could not have less than a Soul threesold).

 

In this case I am avoiding to considerate Soul Healing, that made the Ripped Soul grown again to be stolen again and again...but this isn't what you pointed out before.

I know he would die the second time, but ignoring the ethical issues, it should be possible to create multiple spikes from the same person. And how is this NOT what I said earlier. Also you wouldn't need to Soul Heal him if you just spiked him again quickly afterwards.

[Yata he/him]

10 hours ago, Releaser12 said:

I know he would die the second time, but ignoring the ethical issues, it should be possible to create multiple spikes from the same person. And how is this NOT what I said earlier. Also you wouldn't need to Soul Heal him if you just spiked him again quickly afterwards.

Possible but we don't know if Spiking out something the first time leave the guy "spiritual messy" for a specific second Spiking out.

We know that also if Hemaurgy is matter of precision, you still rip off the wanted part and "something more" (functional useless but still you ruin something more than just removing a power for example)...We need to decide if you are actually capable of stole something else (probably it's something different case to case).

I know you didn't talk about Soul Healing (also if honestly with the Medallion tech it would be the best way to performe Hemalurgy without permanent loss) but I mentioned it for sake of the whole scenario

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 2/6/2017 at 3:14 AM, Yata said:

Actually stealing attributes is still lethal (maybe also more than Powers). It's for example the reason Kandra can't do more Blessings...Because they would need to kill a couple of dudes only to make a new Kandra (remember the Primary Blessing could not be recycled).

Notice that we don't know if the "Stealing points" are the same to the "Reciver point"

Returning to the Bindpoints, we can't say a lot. We don't know if there is a Harmless Stealing Point. Notice that to rip the Soul the wound need to be serious.

Another point is: Also if you may (for hypotesis) steal something in a completely harmless point (like the ear), you mostly still kill the subject because ripping the Soul normally result into death.

This WoB is quite explicit. Just a little difference from Warbreaker

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Nalthian people are actually made with a poor Soul+ an extra cedible part...They survive without the extra.

Another human will simply mostly die, because he is not designed to survive with a ripped soul.

 

Er...You mention that we don't know if there are "harmless stealing points," but this is sort of a moot point.  WoB clearly expresses that a person can live through being spiked under the right circumstances.  Considering the greater context of his response, I think it's fair to say he's intentionally confirming that it is plausible for someone to knowingly and intentionally spike another person, thereby removing part of their spirtweb, without killing them.  I'm not seeing any implications of it being a matter of chance like you imply; his words are, as you put it, quite explicit.

If a person can be spiked once and live, then they should definitely be able to be spiked at least twice (though that does seem cruel...)  Damaging (tearing/cracking/maiming/ect.) someone's spirit web doesn't "normally result in death."  People have to experience damage to their spirit webs to be able to use most magic systems in the Cosmere.  Damage, be it from severe emotional trauma, a savage beating, or having a nail pounded into your hand, is still just damage, not necessarily a death-sentence.  Damaging someone's spirit web isn't fatal in and of itself, it just changes who they are in a very fundamental way; some changes are incompatible with life and some aren't.

I suspect the reason people die from hemalurgy so often is because they're having railroad spikes hammered through their chests... (speculation)

TLDR; The best hemalurgic traits are harvested from the torso (from what we've seen) and a hemalurgic spike's ability to store change is proportional to its size.  Ergo, very few people are likely to survive hemalurgic extractions.  If you've already made peace with the fact that you're going to harvest someone for their spiritual essence, I feel like it's an, "in for a penny, in for a pound," kind of situation...

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, hwiles said:

Damaging (tearing/cracking/maiming/ect.) someone's spirit web doesn't "normally result in death."  People have to experience damage to their spirit webs to be able to use most magic systems in the Cosmere.  Damage, be it from severe emotional trauma, a savage beating, or having a nail pounded into your hand, is still just damage, not necessarily a death-sentence.  Damaging someone's spirit web isn't fatal in and of itself, it just changes who they are in a very fundamental way; some changes are incompatible with life and some aren't.

But usual damages to Spiritweb like Snapping or even more extreme ones like savantism leave Spiritweb intact, only damaged.

Hemalurgy however rips off chunks of Spiritweb. It's a fundamental difference.

[Yata he/him]

8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

But usual damages to Spiritweb like Snapping or even more extreme ones like savantism leave Spiritweb intact, only damaged.

Hemalurgy however rips off chunks of Spiritweb. It's a fundamental difference.

Exactly and the Savantism itself is defined as "really dangerous for the Soul".

Anyway if we return to the Hemalurgy VS other kind of Soul's Damage. If we make an analogy as Soul=a guy:

Snapping: punch the guy until he start to cry

Hemalurgy: Remove one of his Kidney

(honestly I can't figure a good analogy for the Savantism, maybe:

a guy who recive so much punches to become a masochist and day after day riskes his life more and more, because he want more punches).

Anyway returning to the Soul:

- Snapping is a superficial Soul damage

- something that cuts the Soul kills the target (we are in the Mistborn subforum and i don't want to put a Spoiler tag) if hits central part of the Soul.

- Hemalurgy remove a desired part of the Soul, but rip also the "near parts"...it mostly cause the death for his own (regardless of the physical damage), notice also that a guy who is so luckly to survive the Spiritual ripping is leaved with less soul and this mean less life spark and less health. This would guide him to die for less serious wound (and we know to performe the Hemalurgy, you need to hurt seriusly the target).

A last point, Spikes' size is almost irrelevant. The Spirit-Web didn't weight a lot, also a simple needle may keep all the needed charge, so using smaller Spike didn't mean you steal less soul

Edited February 11, 2017 by Yata

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

I'm sorry, do you have any evidence to support the theory that spike size doesn't matter?  That's a fairly bold claim.

7 hours ago, Yata said:

- Hemalurgy remove a desired part of the Soul, but rip also the "near parts"...it mostly cause the death for his own (regardless of the physical damage)

Do you have a source for this?  I won't argue that it isn't perfectly reasonable as speculation, but the way you present it makes it sound like a fact and I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

I'm sorry, do you have any evidence to support the theory that spike size doesn't matter?  That's a fairly bold claim.

Hemalurgy is a low Investiture magic system. You may see it with the fact you may use a Spike as Metalmind without too problems, because the Investiture Inteference isn't really strong and the metal itself has not much Investiture from Hemalurgy.

You may see also the Vin's earring with his small size was capable to grant the same benefit od one of a Inquisitor's spike.

Lastly but not less meaningfull, a Spike isn't so Invested to be hard to affect with magic...For example Vin used his earring as bullet with a great outcome.

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

Do you have a source for this?  I won't argue that it isn't perfectly reasonable as speculation, but the way you present it makes it sound like a fact and I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

Someone with a gifting Spike, may be/or not be keyed with enougth Victim's Soul to be able to pass as the victim for a Identity pow. This mean the Spike doesn't stole with precision only the "selected part" or the outcome will be absolutelly predictable (you could always access to victim's metalmind or you never be able to access victim's metalmind), lastly but you may argue with "purelly semantic" Hemalurgy is always be stated as a "rip the Soul" not as "cut the Soul" and this point to a messy and butcher-like act.

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

I'm sorry, do you have any evidence to support the theory that spike size doesn't matter?  That's a fairly bold claim.

Do you have a source that it does matter?

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

Do you have a source for this?  I won't argue that it isn't perfectly reasonable as speculation, but the way you present it makes it sound like a fact and I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

I think @Yata wanted to say it's not a nice, clean amputation of soul like with Shardblade but more like ripping off like a koloss would do to a human.

[Yata he/him]

First of all, @Oversleep got my argument.

On another point, I need to make a precisation about the "size matters".

I think the Spike's size matter in "how much Investiture could keep" (as every other object in the Cosmere has an Investiture's threeshold, I can't honestly believe a Spike is different) BUT this "Investiture threesold" is somethin many time the amount of Stealable Spirit-Web. So in the context of Hemalurgy, also a little Spike could keep all the Spirit-Web you want.

Stupid example:Imagine to try to spike someone with an HUGE Soul (honestly I can't figure a possible target, but I will say someone with a Soul of Splinter-like level), someone with a Soul made by so much Investiture could probably fill a little Spike (like the earring) and force you to use an Inquisitor's Spike or maybe something bigger.

TLTR: The Spike's size is a theoric factor in his stealable power, but it's pratical irrilevant

[AerionBFII he/him]

Hemalurgy always struck me as a evil/creepy art but on further reflection it seems more neutral. Neither good nor bad it just is what it is. It is a tool that depends more on the wielders intent but sadly i think it is easier to use it for nefarious purposes rather than benign ones. It made me very nervous when i discovered it was still around. When Wax read Spooks book i can always remember the facepalm shortly after.

[+robardin he/him]

7 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Hemalurgy always struck me as a evil/creepy art but on further reflection it seems more neutral. Neither good nor bad it just is what it is. 

It's hard not to call a magic system evil when it's predicated on gaining power via the death of another already holding that power. You could construct ethical frameworks around it, like Spook's surmising of voluntary spiking from a terminally ill Metalborn, but it's so easy to go from there to considering a "retirement age" for the elderly, or what the Set appear to have done in kidnapping and murdering people.