The other end-negative system is...

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Nice, I hadn't seen that I don't think.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

Hemalurgy is end-negative, and yet Inquisitors and Koloss are both definite powerhouses.

Inquisitors are created by Hemalurgy, true, but their actual powers are Allomancy and Feruchemy.

And Koloss are not terribly impressive, really. They are surrounded in legend & fear, and when we see them as enemies they are largely facing poorly trained men where that makes a big difference. But when people actually stand against them, they're not terribly effective. Elend killed one with just a knife when he wasn't even an Allomancer yet, and Vin can kill them with coins - they're much stronger than humans, but they don't seem to get proportionate resilience.

A Koloss is made from 5 people, and they're definitely not worth 5 human soldiers in battle. Probably not even 2, if the humans aren't overwhelmed by the sight of them. Without the fear factor, I think a phalanx formation could defeat them at 1:1 or worse odds.

[Vissy]

I am fairly certain that the end-negative system is not related to Dakhor monks; remember reading it somewhere. Cannot find the WoB for that however.

[Yata he/him]

I read the whole topic, and I have to say to me the main candidate at the moment are both....weird:

1) Shades because like someone said, it's not a proper magic system

2) Voidbinding, I want to place it in the candidates because we know at least one of the Unmade may (probably) performe a soul/investiture's stealing to fuel future-sight.

[BlackYeti he/him]

15 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I thought about this. Who said that Shards can only Invest planets? There are a lot of celestial bodies that are not planets. Maybe Brandon is being clever here.

If you're looking for somewhere that isn't a planet, there's always Silverlight.

15 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Of course, Forgery is end-positive and it's not that powerful. So it's speculation, but if Voidbringers use Stormlight (and I think they do) they use end-positive.

Actually forgery does use a lot of Investiture:

Quote

QUESTION

What if you Soulstamped a city?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Soulstamped...the city. So if you’re a really good Forger...It is possible to do things like that, but it requires a lot of work and time. Just one thing to keep in mind with Soulstamps is that, anything that does this...rewriting your Spirit Web, like, requires Investiture. A lot of Investiture. For instance, what Shai can do is really cool, but what an Elantrian can do is gonna look a lot more dramatic, right? Shooting a column of fire, you would say ‘which takes more power, making the wall have flowers on it or shooting a column of fire?’ Making the wall have flowers takes a lot more Investiture. It’s a lot easier to pull off some dramatic effects with others, but the actual changing of the soul...So just keep in mind the extent, right? This is why you don’t see Shai Forging so the whole building disappears. Which is not outside of reason for a couple of Elantrians with the right program to put into place. But they could blow it up, essentially, that’s what they would do. Do keep in mind, people like to ask, you’ve probably seen people ask, ‘could I rewrite myself to be a Knight Radiant?’ Well… there are certain things that you just can’t fake without enough energy that it becomes impractical. Usually what I use as an example to that is: Yes, we can turn hydrogen into gold, if we wanted to. Right? It might take more energy than the earth creates in an entire year, but we can do that. I get a lot of questions like this ‘is it possible, is it possible?’ You should probably be like, ‘is it possible, with reasonable amounts of energy provided by one Invested person

 

11 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm of the opinion that you can sense people with lifesense when they're holding breath but not drabs because of affinity between the breaths, not because of a threshold. Can't say for certain until we see someone using lifesense to detect a regular human or not.

I'm pretty sure that we've already seen this. Just reread Vasher's Interlude from Words of Radiance: he's aware of both Kaladin and Syl before he otherwise could be.

[Fezzik]

@BlackYeti, I think that Kal's KR status might affect Vasher's life-sense. I still agree with you that life-sense can be used to detect Joe Average, but I don't know that we have seen it on screen yet.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm pretty sure that we've already seen this. Just reread Vasher's Interlude from Words of Radiance: he's aware of both Kaladin and Syl before he otherwise could be.

Yeah, you're right. He detected Kaladin approaching and based on his thoughts it was common enough that he would awake due to lighteyes approaching, so he can detect regular humans as well. 

[Ciridae]

I think we get a hint at the end-negative magic through Nightblood. There are some weird things about it that are difficult to explain by what we know of Awakening, like the black smoke, or why it cuts on all three Realms. Also, why is Nighblood so incredibly powerful if it has only been invested with 1000 breaths? Sure thats a whole lot, but to me it has always seemed like too little for its level of power.

Relevant WoB on the black smoke:

Quote

Blightsong: How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood.

Brandon: Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren people would feel are corrupted. But that is corruption where the mixing of different shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, people are meaning the mixing of shards powers.
 
Blightsong: So is there a mixing of shards power with Nightblood?
 
Brandon: *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Thats just screams multiple magic systems to me. We know the Scholars were inspired by Rosharan Shardblades, so they have worldhopped and know of other magic systems. My guess is that the end-negative system is in there somewhere, explaining the "corrupted" investiture, and maybe why Nightblood steals investiture from whoever wields it in the first place. Yes, to power the Realm-cutting but why in such a violent and involuntary way?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

20 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

22 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The Heralds can't surgebind without their Honorblades.

I was assuming but has been confirmed?

Here

Quote

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

---

20 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Can a Herald become a Radiant?

Technically, maybe, ish. It specifies Honorblade rather than Herald so..

Quote

If someone is using an Honorblade, would they be able to bond a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

It is indeed possible. It does not block it. Good question.

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder if Cultivation could be an End-Negative system? 

Farmers raise crops, and then those crops are cultivated to raise cattle. A lot of energy is lost when feeding higher order organisms like cattle. In order to cultivate something of worth, you really need to expend a lot of wasted energy. Because of this, I could see Cultivation having something with an end-negative result. Cultivation implies accepting loss in order to achieve a gain somewhere else. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Spoolofwhool]

26 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder if Cultivation could be an End-Negative system? 

Farmers raise crops, and then those crops are cultivated to raise cattle. A lot of energy is lost when feeding higher order organisms like cattle. in order to cultivate something of worth you really need to expend a lot of wasted energy. Because of this, I could see Cultivation having something with an end-negative result. Cultivation implies accepting loss in order to achieve a gain somewhere else. 

That's an interesting thought. Its kind of funny if you think about it. Ruin and Cultivation, opposite intents, both creating systems which create loss. I don't think this is the case though since as your last line leads to, Cultivation would point towards creating a net gain, with a possible loss along the way, the same way that Ruin is about a net loss, with acceptable gains along the way. Overall, I would see that leading to an end-positive system, or end-neutral at best.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Pagerunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That's an interesting thought. Its kind of funny if you think about it. Ruin and Cultivation, opposite intents, both creating systems which create loss. I don't think this is the case though since as your last line leads to, Cultivation would point towards creating a net gain, with a possible loss along the way, the same way that Ruin is about a net loss, with acceptable gains along the way. Overall, I would see that leading to an end-positive system, or end-neutral at best.

Ruin and Cultivation aren't opposite intents. To the contrary, they're quite compatible.

[Spoolofwhool]

15 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Ruin and Cultivation aren't opposite intents. To the contrary, they're quite compatible.

Opposite doesn't mean they're incompatible. I was just referring to what their intents push them to do, where I presume Cultivation is about natural increase, while Ruin is about natural decrease.

[Oversleep]

Preface: I know next to nothing about Aether of the Night.

Theory: Since Aether is probably going back into cosmere and the Shard there was Decay who got repurposed into Ruin... but Aethers are already canon...

Quote

Peter: Yeah, Decay is essentially Ruin, so lots of things would change there. But the magic of the Aethers, especially, could get their own book later.

There is a reason that Aethers are already canon. I don't think anyone has figured that out yet. But the backstory Brandon gives them could change in the future, or could end up never materializing.
(source is that link up there)

This is the other end-negative system. Is the case closed?

[Pagerunner he/him]

18 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Preface: I know next to nothing about Aether of the Night.

Theory: Since Aether is probably going back into cosmere and the Shard there was Decay who got repurposed into Ruin... but Aethers are already canon...

This is the other end-negative system. Is the case closed?

No. I can't go into detail outside the Aether forum, but you're assuming Aethers were of Decay.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Pagerunner

[Oversleep]

26 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

No. I can't go into detail outside the Aether forum, but you're assuming Aethers were of Decay.

Good. I'd be disappointed if this was something so simple.

Back to the OP theory.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I have read Aether too, and I don't believe that system to be end-negative. I obviously can't say more. But, that system will likely change a lot. 

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

On 15/01/2017 at 5:12 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Opposite doesn't mean they're incompatible. I was just referring to what their intents push them to do, where I presume Cultivation is about natural increase, while Ruin is about natural decrease.

I think being opposites does in fact make them MORE compatible.

Brandon has said Honour would be the most Compatible with Odium.

And ruin is very compatible with preservation and cultivation.

[AeonaRin she/her]

On 15.01.2017 at 2:43 AM, Ciridae said:

I think we get a hint at the end-negative magic through Nightblood. There are some weird things about it that are difficult to explain by what we know of Awakening, like the black smoke, or why it cuts on all three Realms. Also, why is Nighblood so incredibly powerful if it has only been invested with 1000 breaths? Sure thats a whole lot, but to me it has always seemed like too little for its level of power.

Relevant WoB on the black smoke:

Thats just screams multiple magic systems to me. We know the Scholars were inspired by Rosharan Shardblades, so they have worldhopped and know of other magic systems. My guess is that the end-negative system is in there somewhere, explaining the "corrupted" investiture, and maybe why Nightblood steals investiture from whoever wields it in the first place. Yes, to power the Realm-cutting but why in such a violent and involuntary way?

I also think that but for a different reason. That reason being:
 

Quote

INTERVIEW: Feb 25th, 2016

Calamity-Austin

QUESTION

Why does Nightblood need to eat Investiture?

BRANDON SANDERSON

So, Nightblood is… leaky, is how would say it.
 

QUESTION

Does his sheath help with this somehow?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

[Jondesu he/him]

23 hours ago, strumienpola said:

I also think that but for a different reason. That reason being:
 

 

Remember, though, Stormlight is very similarly leaky visually, while Hemalurgy also leaks power but not visibly.  There's precedent there without it having to be a mix of magic systems, though I do think that's probably the case.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:53 PM, Oversleep said:

This is the other end-negative system. Is the case closed?

I don't think so, as Ruin was also involved in feruchemy. And I don't really see how the other end-neutral system can be explained by the nature of the Shard.
The two rather obvious (and therefore likely wrong) candidates are

• the withering process of shades on Threnody, which appears to be powered by the victim's investiture which is subsequently gone
• the stormlight sucking winged cremlings (is it proven that they are Aimians?)
• Whatever happens on the Threnodian mainland

And if we go by obscurity

• What magics are operational on Braize?
• Is there magic on the dark side of Taldaine?

 

[Krios]

On 13.1.2017 at 11:31 PM, Oversleep said:

Obviously worldhoppers are hard to spot (vide: Felt, Terrisan woman in Warbreaker, Hemalurgist and/or WalDo).

We have seen a Hemalurgist worldhopper? Who and where?

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Krios said:

We have seen a Hemalurgist worldhopper? Who and where?

Well there are some Kandra around and they are Hemalurgists.

We have also a wob about someone going around in the Cosmere using Hemalurgy to gather powers... The fandom started to call him Hemahoid (or Hema-hoid) but at the moment I can't find the WoB.

Edit: found the WoB.

Quote

Questioner

If Hemalurgy can be used to transfer Investiture regardless of the planet, is someone gathering pieces of different Investitures the way Hoid got, for example, the Lerasium bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Yata

[Ripheus23]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

The fandom started to call him Hemahoid (or Hema-hoid)

The black sphere strikes again!

[Scion of the Mists]

On 9/23/2018 at 6:22 AM, Oltux72 said:

the stormlight sucking winged cremlings (is it proven that they are Aimians?)

The Larkin are indeed from Aimia.