[BoM spoilers ahead!] Hoid's objective in BoM

[Sallin Zeras]

Ok, guys, so, as many of us should know, Hoid wrote the letter in TWoK (I know it's not officially confirmed, but come on, we all now he did), in which he states that he wants to stop Rayse/Odium, which leads us to believe that Hoid's ultimate goal is to stop Odium. Now, in BoM, Hoid gives the metalmind to Wax, basically telling him that Kelsier is still around somewhere. This leads into my question, how would that help Hoid achieve his goal?

[Darkness Ascendant]

Maybe hoid is trying to find keslier. And he's getting wax to do the dirty work for him

[DeTess]

4 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Ok, guys, so, as many of us should know, Hoid wrote the letter in TWoK (I know it's not officially confirmed, but come on, we all now he did), in which he states that he wants to stop Rayse/Odium, which leads us to believe that Hoid's ultimate goal is to stop Odium. Now, in BoM, Hoid gives the metalmind to Wax, basically telling him that Kelsier is still around somewhere. This leads into my question, how would that help Hoid achieve his goal?

Keep in mind that BoM happens after the first Stormlight quintet (and probably after the second too), so for all we know, Hoid has already achieved that goal by then and has moved on to something else.

[manukos]

Also it is heavily speculated that Trell is Odium , and by that logic it would make complete sence 

As he has 2 objectives : 
1) stop Odium 
2) investigate other worlds to obtain power or information to have a better chance to stop Odium

going to places like Sel , Nalthis or the first mistborn era  fulfills the second objective (seeing victims of Odium i.e. Aona and skai , and becoming mistborn)

but if Odium is Trell then it would be only logical for hoid to try and stop his influence(just like he is trying to prevent an other desolation), apart from that i can not think of any other reason .

[Sallin Zeras]

5 hours ago, randuir said:

Keep in mind that BoM happens after the first Stormlight quintet (and probably after the second too), so for all we know, Hoid has already achieved that goal by then and has moved on to something else.

Well, Coppermind says that the Wax and Wayne novels take place between Stormlight 5 and Stormlight 6, and I'm guessing Odium is the Bad Guy in Stormlight, so I don't think Odium is being defeated in the half of the series, it would be a waste of the character.

[Sallin Zeras]

7 hours ago, Mesa the Ookla said:

Maybe hoid is trying to find keslier. And he's getting wax to do the dirty work for him

Yeah, that's also what I thought too, but how can that be beneficial for him?

[Mirdrim]

I've wondered this before as well, but less specifically.  I've wondered what Hoid's actual ultimate goal is, because it has been written that Cephandrius had declined to hold a shard, and Brandon has confirmed that Cephandrius was one of Hoid's earliest names.

Well, a shard is just a massive amount of investiture, so why would Hoid want to gather all of this investiture when he'd had the opportunity to be a shardholder and have a tremendous amount of investiture immediately.

Did Hoid know that Rayse would conspire to destroy and splinter the other shards, and that he wouldn't be able to stop him with a shard?  Does he have some plan to amass huge amounts of Investiture from different sources in order to be able to ascend to a shard of his own, without a previously set intention?

I tend to think that Hoid's previous denial of a shard comes from the understanding that shards intent will affect the holder, and they will be in some ways bound by their shard's intent.
Maybe Hoid wants to find Kelsier to be able to better understand feruchemical storage of Investiture, which could possibly be a way for him to amass enough investiture to be able to impact things on a shardic level.

Admittedly, I haven't read much of WoB and other extraneous information, I'm sure at least a couple of my theories could be discarded from things Brandon has said, but I think it'd be interesting to see if Hoid's story played out like this.

[Darkness Ascendant]

WHAT CANT BE BENEFICIAL FROM FINDING KESLIER???

He could help Hoid soooo much. Explain to him more about the cognitive realm, use his badass mistborn powers. Survive. Convert good to the survivirists. Kill odium etc etc

[Spoolofwhool]

47 minutes ago, Mirdrim said:

I tend to think that Hoid's previous denial of a shard comes from the understanding that shards intent will affect the holder, and they will be in some ways bound by their shard's intent.

This would make sense as we have a WoB that Hoid avoids hemalurgy because he doesn't want undue external influences affecting him.

[Chaos]

I'm going to move this to Cosmere Theories as it is more general than just Mistborn.

[Blightsong]

16 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Ok, guys, so, as many of us should know, Hoid wrote the letter in TWoK (I know it's not officially confirmed, but come on, we all now he did), in which he states that he wants to stop Rayse/Odium, which leads us to believe that Hoid's ultimate goal is to stop Odium. Now, in BoM, Hoid gives the metalmind to Wax, basically telling him that Kelsier is still around somewhere. This leads into my question, how would that help Hoid achieve his goal?

Brandon recently said that Hoid did it because it revealed something Kelsier didnt want known (they dislike eachother as we know, doesnt necessarily advance Hoids goals).

 

11 hours ago, harambe said:

Also it is heavily speculated that Trell is Odium , and by that logic it would make complete sence 

As he has 2 objectives : 
1) stop Odium 
2) investigate other worlds to obtain power or information to have a better chance to stop Odium

going to places like Sel , Nalthis or the first mistborn era  fulfills the second objective (seeing victims of Odium i.e. Aona and skai , and becoming mistborn)

but if Odium is Trell then it would be only logical for hoid to try and stop his influence(just like he is trying to prevent an other desolation), apart from that i can not think of any other reason .

We dont really know what Hoids goals are, and we know even less about Trell.

[Thanatos]

What if Rayse dies at the end of Stormlight book 5, and Trell is the new vessel of Odium.

Just a passing thought as i dont really think this, but its a small possibly.

Thing ive learnt about Brandon as opposed to other writers is you have to think outside the box. Like way outside the box.

Frustrating cause our minds are made to theorize and make a conclusion even without evidence.... but freaking awesome at the same time when the answer/s is finally revealed.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Thanatos

[Sallin Zeras]

13 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

What if Rayse dies at the end of Stormlight book 5, and Trell is the new vessel of Odium.

Just a passing thought as i dont really think this, but its a small possibly.

Thing ive learnt about Brandon as opposed to other writers is you have to think outside the box. Like way outside the box.

Frustrating cause our minds are made to theorize and make a conclusion even without evidence.... but freaking awesome at the same time when the answer/s is finally revealed.

Only the Stormfather knows, Trell might be Odium, or a completely different Shard, but the only thing I'm almost certain about is that Trell is a Shard, so, I'm not saying that theory is completely wrong. Maybe Rayse does die, but someone else becomes Odium, or maybe Sanderson can do the same as he did with Harmony, where two Shards were combined. Only time will tell. The only thing I'm completely, absolutely, 100% certain that is true, is that I am a stick.

[VirtuousTraveller]

I'm feeling pretty confident that Trell = Autonomy, not Odium.  Remember, Hoid said in the letter that the recipient (we assume to be Frost?) accused him of perpetuating his grudge against Rayse (Odium) AND Bavadin (Autonomy).  I think they're working together, or that Autonomy is using Odium to advance his/her purposes.

[Sallin Zeras]

13 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I'm feeling pretty confident that Trell = Autonomy, not Odium.  Remember, Hoid said in the letter that the recipient (we assume to be Frost?) accused him of perpetuating his grudge against Rayse (Odium) AND Bavadin (Autonomy).  I think they're working together, or that Autonomy is using Odium to advance his/her purposes.

I would like for Trell to be Autonomy, but I just don't see why would that be. I mean, we have a lot of clues telling us that Odium is Trell. There's only one Shard that we know of that is associated with red eyes. But maybe, the identity of Trell has been taken by various Shards. Remember that at first, Trell wanted to use the Set to rule Scadrial, which does not fit Odium's personality, but then, in the BoM epilogue, a Faceless Inmortal tells Edward that now they will destroy Scadrial, which sounds a lot like Odium. So, yeah, I really think that the drastic change in Trell's plans is because it's a totally different Shard.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew

[Kingsdaughter613]

Spoiler

We do know that Bavadin does interfere with other worlds though. And she has many different faces.

 

[asterion137]

Trell doesn't have to be a shard. The Set almost certainly has ties to Sel, and there aren't any shards left there

[emailanimal]

23 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Ok, guys, so, as many of us should know, Hoid wrote the letter in TWoK (I know it's not officially confirmed, but come on, we all now he did), in which he states that he wants to stop Rayse/Odium, which leads us to believe that Hoid's ultimate goal is to stop Odium.

As an aside, It has been officially confirmed.

The word "ultimate" is perhaps too strong. Brandon has been very tight-lipped about Hoid's endgame. So, if it is to stop Odium (and only that), it seems like no more mystery.

I think it is more fair to say that Hoid's presence on Roshar during Stormlight Archive timeline has as its goal stopping, or somehow interfering with Odium. But that is a small part of  a VERY LONG timeline during which Hoid is playing some VERY LONG game.

 

18 hours ago, harambe said:

Also it is heavily speculated that Trell is Odium , and by that logic it would make complete sence 

 

It has also been just as heavily speculated that Trell is in fact not Odium. Recent WoBs regarding Bavadin and religions make her a much more plausible choice.

 

[emailanimal]

3 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

I would like for Trell to be Autonomy, but I just don't see why would that be. I mean, we have a lot of clues telling us that Odium is Trell. There's only one Shard that we know of that is associated with red eyes.

We have a WoB stating that Bavadin dabbles in religions. We have a WoB stating that red is associated with something very specific in Cosmere, but refusing to connect red with a single Shard (in fact, essentially saying that it is not Odium's color). The preponderance of evidence is not on the side of Odium at this point. 

 

3 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Remember that at first, Trell wanted to use the Set to rule Scadrial, which does not fit Odium's personality, but then, in the BoM epilogue, a Faceless Inmortal tells Edward that now they will destroy Scadrial, which sounds a lot like Odium

At first, Trelagism was a religion teaching (in a slightly more carefully worded manner) that night is better than day, and that the stars (1000 eyes of Trell) are better than the shining sun. The key point to observe is that if I lived on the side of the tidally locked planet that is always dark, I would want  a religion telling me that my side of the planet is better than the bright side of the planet.... 

Also, so far, Odium has NOT BEEN KNOWN to actually destroy worlds. Sel has two dead Shards, but it is not a dead world. Tanavast is dead on Roshar, but humanity is not. We now know from Brandon (and UA) that Odium fought Ambition near Taldain, yet Taldain is populated.  Destruction of Scadrial (not Harmony) is actually not  Odium's MO thus far. He was largely interested in destroying Shards, not planets.

Edited December 11, 2016 by emailanimal

[Sallin Zeras]

8 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

We have a WoB stating that Bavadin dabbles in religions. We have a WoB stating that red is associated with something very specific in Cosmere, but refusing to connect red with a single Shard (in fact, essentially saying that it is not Odium's color). The preponderance of evidence is not on the side of Odium at this point. 

 

At first, Trelagism was a religion teaching (in a slightly more carefully worded manner) that night is better than day, and that the stars (1000 eyes of Trell) are better than the shining sun. The key point to observe is that if I lived on the side of the tidally locked planet that is always dark, I would want  a religion telling me that my side of the planet is better than the bright side of the planet.... 

Also, so far, Odium has NOT BEEN KNOWN to actually destroy worlds. Sel has two dead Shards, but it is not a dead world. Tanavast is dead on Roshar, but humanity is not. We now know from Brandon (and UA) that Odium fought Ambition near Taldain, yet Taldain is populated.  Destruction of Scadrial (not Harmony) is actually not  Odium's MO thus far. He was largely interested in destroying Shards, not planets.

He might just start destroying people too. That's exactly what he wants to do in Roshar, so, yeah, he has not affected a planet's population, yet.

[emailanimal]

4 minutes ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

He might just start destroying people too. That's exactly what he wants to do in Roshar, so, yeah, he has not affected a planet's population, yet.

Unlike Roshar, Odium is not bound to Scadrial.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, asterion137 said:

Trell doesn't have to be a shard. The Set almost certainly has ties to Sel, and there aren't any shards left there

What clues have indicated of their ties to Sel? I don't recall any. Also, there are two shards on Sel, just splintered and not held by a vessel. 

[BeskarKomrk]

8 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Also, so far, Odium has NOT BEEN KNOWN to actually destroy worlds. Sel has two dead Shards, but it is not a dead world. Tanavast is dead on Roshar, but humanity is not. We now know from Brandon (and UA) that Odium fought Ambition near Taldain, yet Taldain is populated.  Destruction of Scadrial (not Harmony) is actually not  Odium's MO thus far. He was largely interested in destroying Shards, not planets.

Just a small correction: Odium fought Ambitiom in the Threnody system, not the Taldaim system.

I'm not sure I buy the argument about not destroying planets. I think Odium's goal is killing the other Shards, but I doubt he would have any problem with planet-destroying if that's what it took to accomplish his goal. Maybe after being trapped on Roshar for so long, he doesn't want to take the chance of fighting another Shard on their home turf again (especially Harmony who is double the power of a normal Shard). He could want to destroy Scadrial in order to force Harmony to face him in space.

[AerionBFII]

19 hours ago, Mesa the Ookla said:

WHAT CANT BE BENEFICIAL FROM FINDING KESLIER???

He could help Hoid soooo much. Explain to him more about the cognitive realm, use his badass mistborn powers. Survive. Convert good to the survivirists. Kill odium etc etc

He and Hoid hate each other. I can't imagine them working together and Hoid seems more of a lone wolf anyway,

Though i'd pay good money to see them meet again 

[AerionBFII]

58 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

Just a small correction: Odium fought Ambitiom in the Threnody system, not the Taldaim system.

I'm not sure I buy the argument about not destroying planets. I think Odium's goal is killing the other Shards, but I doubt he would have any problem with planet-destroying if that's what it took to accomplish his goal. Maybe after being trapped on Roshar for so long, he doesn't want to take the chance of fighting another Shard on their home turf again (especially Harmony who is double the power of a normal Shard). He could want to destroy Scadrial in order to force Harmony to face him in space.

I agree with this! Dalinars vision suggests that his intent is to obliterate Roshar so planet smashing is definitely in the equation.

As for his ultimate goal,  Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard. The reason he splinters other Shards is so that nobody can pick up a Shard to Challenge him. Typical world domination agenda.

 

Quote

ERICTH

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

I don;t know much about shard combat but given how Shards are practically eternal, i assume Odiums tactic to face Harmony who is stronger but far less experienced is to force a him to expend as much of his power as possible and divide his attention over a long period of time. Exhausting him and distracting him from reaching his full potential but whats happening in BOM in my humble opinion is the equivalent of sending forerunners to cause chaos and confusion. He intends to deal with Roshar and keep Harmony busy before dealing with him.