Confusion over Ideals

[Capt. Goradel]

Shallan killed her mother with Pattern as a little girl. Does that mean that she said three ideals (the number, by my count, that Kaladin said before Syl was able to be a blade) as a child? Or can lightweavers use their spren as a blade with less ideals? Am I wrong altogether? Any help understanding this would be greatly appreciated. 

[Argent]

The details on this are not entirely clear, but I believe it is generally accepted that Shallan had attracted Pattern at a very young age, and had advanced far enough in her Knighthood to be able to have him materialize himself. I don't know if that necessarily means Third Ideal, maybe it could work differently in some circumstances.

[The One Who Connects]

On mobile so can't really find sources, but I remember seeing that Shallan had advanced enough to summon the blade, but she pushed him away and let the bond weaken after the "incident."

I also recall reading somewhere that the specific Ideal for blade summoning could vary between Order's, but it didn't have anything more specific to it.

[goody153]

Getting shardblade probably depends on the orders ? (like maybe Windrunners get at the 3rd words) and maybe others get earlier or later.

[Capt. Goradel]

Do we know what age she was when that happened? It seems odd that she would have said even the first ideal as a kid. 

[Argent]

It is odd, but Brandon has been tight-lipped about Shallan's childhood before her appearance in the Words of Radiance flashbacks.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Capt. Goradel said:

Do we know what age she was when that happened? It seems odd that she would have said even the first ideal as a kid. 

I think it's a matter of attitude. Different orders have different "core concepts" maybe a Windrunner (for example) have need of a more experienced mind to began to understand the value of protecting other...While a Lightweaver may began his path of auto-improvement as a child.

But in the end, I think a lot of things is really related to the specific events of the Surgebinders

[xianpoxi]

Lightweavers speak no Oaths (which are where they promise to keep the ideals) beyond the first. 

Instead they speak truths in a progression of self-awareness.

I think its clear that the progression is not a parallel or equivocated process between different orders. 

 

 

[Sand Master]

True, the progression is not the same in every order. But even Lightweavers say the first Oath:

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. It seems odd that a little girl (what, five, six years old?) would say that out of the blue. Especially since the only KR we've seen saying them as part of their Oaths did so after being told what the First Ideal was. The other Ideals, in Kaladin's case anyway, seemed to just come to him without being told what they were. But both Kaladin and Dalinar had someone else tell them what the First Ideal was before saying it themselves. So, assuming this is necessary, who told Shallan? And why?

If it's not necessary, how do they know/find out what to say?

[ParadoxicalZen]

As the Oath system is a kind of progression in terms making you a better person, Its more coming to a realisation of what an Oath actually means and represents, more than actually saying it (there was a few a WoBs about a hypothetical deaf candidate, that so long as they understand and convey the meaning of the Oath, the Words would be accepted) we see Kal's mental viewpoint about his desire to help bridge 4 become better and not taking shortcuts + his choice to step away from the chasm (Life Before Death, Strength Before Weakness and Journe before destination). He'd already acted in accordance with the first Oath, it was just Teft that gave his actions form after they found out about it

TL;DR - as long as you understand, and believe in, the idea behind whatever the Oath may be, even if no-ones told you the Oath beforehand, you can intuit the words as Kaladin and Lift did

Edited October 12, 2016 by AnanasSpren

[Argel]

Brandon has stated that it's the intent that matters, not the specific words, and that we would see other KRs say some of the oaths worded differently. 

13 hours ago, Sand Master said:

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

Would a really young Shallan say the exact above words? Probably not. But she is an artist, and in that context, the above could be expressed in many different ways. "I want to see the world before I die and there's nothing you can do to stop me!" might be good enough, and considering how much she likes to draw flora and fauna, it doesn't seem like a stretch. 

As a side note, Shallan has progressed the furthest of all the proto-KRs, which puts her at level 4.

[galendo]

12 hours ago, Argel said:

Brandon has stated that it's the intent that matters, not the specific words, and that we would see other KRs say some of the oaths worded differently. 

Would a really young Shallan say the exact above words? Probably not. But she is an artist, and in that context, the above could be expressed in many different ways. "I want to see the world before I die and there's nothing you can do to stop me!" might be good enough, and considering how much she likes to draw flora and fauna, it doesn't seem like a stretch.

I dunno, that doesn't sound at all like the First Ideal to me.  Much too selfish and not very idealistic.  While I'm reasonably sure that someone could, eventually, intuit the correct words or a reasonable facsimile, I think it's much more likely that Shallan just came across the Words somewhere.  She did say she'd read every book in her father's library; and while it was admittedly not large, it's not impossible that Shallan came across the First Ideal there.  Or even that her mother knew the oath and told it to her -- we still don't know much about Shallan's mom at all.

[VladJunior]

Shallan discovered the First Ideal in her father's books. She lists a limited number of books but one of them (can't recall off the top of my head) is referenced that seems like it had to do with history of the Knights. She may have read the words and, in the absolute perspective of a child, agreed to them.

[marianmi]

Let's also not forget that "not all spren as are discerning as honorspren".

So for pattern, just saying the words might be enough, w/o an emphasis on meaning.

[Argel]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

Let's also not forget that "not all spren as are discerning as honorspren".

So for pattern, just saying the words might be enough, w/o an emphasis on meaning.

I don't think they're that bad. More likely a looser interpretation such as I suggested above. Again, Brandon has stated the exact words do not matter.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Argel

[Nymeros]

On 10/11/2016 at 11:18 AM, Capt. Goradel said:

Shallan killed her mother with Pattern as a little girl. Does that mean that she said three ideals (the number, by my count, that Kaladin said before Syl was able to be a blade) as a child? Or can lightweavers use their spren as a blade with less ideals? Am I wrong altogether? Any help understanding this would be greatly appreciated. 

Lightweavers don't have multiple ideals that Im aware of. She's ahead of Kaladin in advancement by the end of WoR even after a period of self delusion and stagnation so yes, she reached Kaladin's current level (oath 3 to make things simple) at a very young age.

[maxal]

26 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Lightweavers don't have multiple ideals that Im aware of. She's ahead of Kaladin in advancement by the end of WoR even after a period of self delusion and stagnation so yes, she reached Kaladin's current level (oath 3 to make things simple) at a very young age.

We do not know which level child Shallan reached prior to killing her mother. It may be Lightweavers do not require the third oath to be spoken before granting Shardblade use. We just do not know, just as we do not know how young Shallan was. 

Considering the fact all other known sprens seem to have materialized themselves six years ago, I am of the opinion no Nahel bond precedes the catalysis which prompt sprens to trust humans again, hundred of years after the ultimate betrayal. It didn't just happen just because: the sprens much have gotten a VERY strong incentive to start seeking humans to bond again and since all clues lead to six years ago, I doubt Shallan had her Nahel bond at the age of 6. Presumably, she bonded Pattern at around 11 (so six years ago), so not long before her mother found out and presumable tried to kill her for it. Radiants have been known to progress very rapidly, so little Shallan could have gone from finding out Pattern to a given level in mere weeks. Thus, I don't think she was not as young as others suggest.

As for the first oath, the most logical explanation is she read it in a book. You just don't come out with the first ideal out of the blue: you need to have been told. Teft told Kaladin, the visions told Dalinar, Jasnah most likely read it in Words of Radiance, Renarin presumably found it in old ancient books he must have studied off book (with the help of an Ardent) to be deemed "learned" and Lift was probably told by the Nightwatcher, I guess, but it is tenuous. In any advent, I have no issue believing little Shallan read it somewhere and applied them. I also think it is probably much easier for a child to grow into a path of self-recognition as children have not had time to develop many protection nor denial mechanism: children are innocent and more blunt then grown-ups, as a rule of thumb. It may be why the Cryptics chose a child and not an adult: easier.

[marianmi]

Given that lightweavers only have to say 1 oath, my feeling is that lightweavers (and probably only lightweavers) can get shardblade right after that first oath.

[Nymeros]

Lightweavers dont speak oaths beyond the 1st so she has no 3rd oath to speak.  However, she certainly didn't advance after killing her mom since she kept Pattern hidden away... yet she is still somehow ahead of Kaladin after only 1 powerful truth (an oath equivalent for lightweavers) so she must have reached a relatively high level at a very young age. 

Even if Lighweavers can immediately access Blades Shallan was probably at a level equivalent to 3rd oath Kaladin any wayso,  so eh. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Nymeros

[Capt. Goradel]

So I found a WoB saying that different orders get their blade at different levels. I do think it's reasonable to say she read the first ideal. If I remember correctly after that advancement is based on crafting lies, which probably wasn't hard for a girl in an abusive home. In one flashback sequence she drew her family as a tight knit, happy group. If she had done that before her mothers death that might have been enough to advance. 

[marianmi]

37 minutes ago, Capt. Goradel said:

So I found a WoB saying that different orders get their blade at different levels. I do think it's reasonable to say she read the first ideal. If I remember correctly after that advancement is based on crafting lies, which probably wasn't hard for a girl in an abusive home. In one flashback sequence she drew her family as a tight knit, happy group. If she had done that before her mothers death that might have been enough to advance. 

It's not clear if her father was abusive before she killed her mother. It's implied they were a happy family, then she killed her mom + that guy, her father took the blame, and this destroyed him. He became abusive probably because he was believed to have killed his wife. So if EVERYONE (including your kids) think you're a monster, it's hard not to become one. While I do believe she was at least level 2, I'm saying that it's possible lightweavers could get access to shardblade at level 1.

[Eki]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

Lightweavers dont speak oaths beyond the 1st so she has no 3rd oath to speak.  However, she certainly didn't advance after killing her mom since she kept Pattern hidden away... yet she is still somehow ahead of Kaladin after only 1 powerful truth (an oath equivalent for lightweavers) so she must have reached a relatively high level at a very young age. 

Even if Lighweavers can immediately access Blades Shallan was probably at a level equivalent to 3rd oath Kaladin any wayso,  so eh. 

She regressed again after that event, and almost killed Pattern. She probably went back to tier 1, if she ever passed that point to begin with.

We've seen two of her truths on screen - "I killed my father", and "I killed my mother". That leaves one we haven't seen. I think it's "I am afraid", but I don't remember if that was just speculation of if we got a WoB about it.

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Eki said:

She regressed again after that event, and almost killed Pattern. She probably went back to tier 1, if she ever passed that point to begin with.

After what event and why would she regress? 

Quote

We've seen two of her truths on screen - "I killed my father", and "I killed my mother". That leaves one we haven't seen. I think it's "I am afraid", but I don't remember if that was just speculation of if we got a WoB about it.

We also have "I'm terrified" which iirc resulted in her soulcasting.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Eki said:

She regressed again after that event, and almost killed Pattern. She probably went back to tier 1, if she ever passed that point to begin with.

We've seen two of her truths on screen - "I killed my father", and "I killed my mother". That leaves one we haven't seen. I think it's "I am afraid", but I don't remember if that was just speculation of if we got a WoB about it.

She says her "first truth" in WoK when she admits being afraid right before soulcasting the blood.

2 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

After what event and why would she regress? 

We also have "I'm terrified" which iirc resulted in her soulcasting.

She regressed after she killed her mother. She blocked the memory and refused to acknowledge her part into her death. She denied Pattern's very existence. The only reason he didn't completely die was because she retained the glimmer of conscience over the fact she "owned" a Shardblade. Thus, her bond wasn't completely shattered, but to restart it, she had to stop lying to herself about who she is and what she has done. 

[Eki]

10 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

We also have "I'm terrified" which iirc resulted in her soulcasting.

Oh, right! I forgot about that one.