Adolin's Fate?

[Argel]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

They are saved through her association with the Ghostbloods whom were, if I understood things correctly, their greatest creditors.

That doesn't change they lost the estate, etc. They are dependent on Sebarial and/or the Ghostbloods at this point. The only thing in their favor is coming end of the world may open up possibilities such as claiming new land or eliminating those that would make claims (e.g. damnation shame those armies were caught in the everstorm and wiped out....). Not "saved" by any means. 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

The same people aren't tearing their shirts open for Jasnah murdering fleeing tugs nor are they doing it for Szeth having murdered countless of people for feeble reasons. Why? Because Jasnah is a Radiant and Szeth is assumed to be one as well: therefore they have the moral superiority.

No need to put words in people's mouths. Jasnah because the ramifications were minor -- slight power struggle in the underworld at worst unlike the potential ramifications related to Sadeas. And Szeth is so obvious there's much less to discuss. Also, there's a certain passionate fan on the forums here that will write significantly more when Adolin is involved, which naturally sparks more conversation and debate. 

 

[CaptainRyan]

2 hours ago, Rasarr said:

Amaram was smuggling himself and Taln into Urithiru, IIRC.

I always assumed he was smuggling Taln to elsewhere... hmm, I will have to reread that part and see if Amaram ever mentions where he is going.

[maxal]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

That doesn't change they lost the estate, etc. They are dependent on Sebarial and/or the Ghostbloods at this point. The only thing in their favor is coming end of the world may open up possibilities such as claiming new land or eliminating those that would make claims (e.g. damnation shame those armies were caught in the everstorm and wiped out....). Not "saved" by any means. 

No need to put words in people's mouths. Jasnah because the ramifications were minor -- slight power struggle in the underworld at worst unlike the potential ramifications related to Sadeas. And Szeth is so obvious there's much less to discuss. Also, there's a certain passionate fan on the forums here that will write significantly more when Adolin is involved, which naturally sparks more conversation and debate. 

 

Maybe you are right, maybe you aren't, but quite frankly, I am not willing to bet much when it comes to Shallan's future. It isn't clear to me where her entire story arc is going which makes it hard, for me, to to speculate strongly on it. Have they lost the estate? My understanding is they still have it, only they had creditors after their money and a broken soulcaster problem which has been solved by Mraize. All in all, house Davar still owns its land, only their country has been put into a ruin, making it unsafe. I assume it was why Mraize the brothers come to Urithiru. I may be wrong, but this is how I remember it.

See, this is where I have a problem... Nobody is out there claiming Jasnah will soon join Odium or be his champion while they keep on saying it about Adolin. By all means, if there were actions which were closer to the interpretation of Odium we currently have, it were Jasnah's, not Adolin's. Sure the ramification were lesser because she killed thugs, but who she killed shouldn't matter when it comes to such discussion: it is how she killed which should have mattered. Therefore, to me, it seems obvious Jasnah is indeed getting a free pass out of the fandom while Adolin isn't, in a general manner.

Other characters have their fans as well: I know several who will speak passionately in favor of Szeth. I am very passionate about Adolin, but I do not start the conversation: this topic isn't mine. I didn't initiate it, I am merely participating in it. This being said, there is a lot more to discuss when it comes to Adolin. I agree Jasnah isn't a well defined character, it is thus hard to get a clear impression on her based on the little we have read.

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I always assumed he was smuggling Taln to elsewhere... hmm, I will have to reread that part and see if Amaram ever mentions where he is going.

My bad, he indeed was smuggling Taln outside Urithiru, not inside. Either way, he was busy. Hard to think the murder may be pin on him.

[Erklitt]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Maybe you are right, maybe you aren't, but quite frankly, I am not willing to bet much when it comes to Shallan's future. It isn't clear to me where her entire story arc is going which makes it hard, for me, to to speculate strongly on it. Have they lost the estate? My understanding is they still have it, only they had creditors after their money and a broken soulcaster problem which has been solved by Mraize. All in all, house Davar still owns its land, only their country has been put into a ruin, making it unsafe. I assume it was why Mraize the brothers come to Urithiru. I may be wrong, but this is how I remember it.

Just for information:

Quote

"Your house is no more," Mraize said. "Your father's grounds seized by a passing army. I rescued your brothers from the chaos of the succession war, and am bringing them here. Your family, however, does owe me a debt. One soulcaster. Broken."

Of course, Mraize might be lying. But if her brothers are really coming, that would be a short-lived lie, so I don't believe that.

 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

but who she killed shouldn't matter when it comes to such discussion: it is how she killed which should have mattered.

I strongly disagree. Who she killed matters a great deal, because who she killed was four thugs who were trying to murder her, while Sadeas was at that moment no direct physical threat. I won't say more because I don't want to set that legal discussion going again, but this is a distinction that matters!!

[maxal]

5 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Just for information:

Of course, Mraize might be lying. But if her brothers are really coming, that would be a short-lived lie, so I don't believe that.

 

I strongly disagree. Who she killed matters a great deal, because who she killed was four thugs who were trying to murder her, while Sadeas was at that moment no direct physical threat. I won't say more because I don't want to set that legal discussion going again, but this is a distinction that matters!!

Ah thanks about the house: I had forgotten this detail. So they lost their estate due to passing army needing it, then there is nothing a marriage to Adolin would accomplish in this regards. House Kholin is not powerful enough to fix the situation in Jah Keved and they will not send armed forces just to take one estate back, especially considering the fact her brothers would never be able to hold it against other passing armies.

Anyway they haven't lost the estate because of their debts: they lost it because the whole country has gone into a civil war. Marrying Adolin won't help for that.

I disagree: how she killed does matter. She purposefully walked into a poor neighborhood while wearing all of her jewelry just to make sure she would be attacked and the men started fleeing, she still killed them. She killed men who were running away: she shoot them in the back! This is much, much, much worst than Adolin's fight with Sadeas. Sadeas had a decent chance of winning, he wasn't shoot in the back either. Besides, Brandon himself has stated Jasnah's actions were much darker than Adolin thus rating her murder as one of the worst we have seen so far. Thus my complains against Jasnah being praised for her actions while Adolin is more or less send to be Odium's pawn is baffling. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by maxal

[Argel]

 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

So they lost their estate due to passing army needing it, then there is nothing a marriage to Adolin would accomplish in this regards.

Are you assuming Sebarial will be paying her forever? Because if she loses that money then that's it for her family. They will be worse off than the elite darkeyed merchants. Or completely beholden to the Ghostbloods. Being a highprincess (is that the right term?) means money and status. You do remember that she's not actually related to Sebarial, right? I don't think she will want to assume it will be there. Arguably her family is in far more desperate straights than ever before. I really do not get how you can miss these problems or the possibilities a marriage to Adolin would still bring (assuming he's not e.g. exiled). 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Thus my complains against Jasnah being praised for her actions while Adolin is more or less send to be Odium's pawn is baffling. 

The reason people don't think she's going to Odium's side is because every shred of evidence we have points to her fighting to prevent that. I couldn't care less if she killed them in cold blood -- it was a calculated choice against some worthless thugs that the local authorities were either ignoring because they were not killing someone important enough or would have been caught and executed in a few more more weeks. And we already saw the ramifications to it -- Shallan arguably loses some respect for Jasnah and steals the fake soulcaster that night. We have no reason to expect more to come out of this. 

Adolin kills a highprince, and we still do not know the ramifications, and we know they could be big. More to the point, he snapped, which if nothing else raises the possibility he could snap again. The whole situation would imo be easier if he had done it in cold blood insteed of snapping. That's the wild card that sparks discussions. If Jasnah had had Sadeas assassinated we would just see it as long overdue.

Brandon himself has said that some of the KR orders would not have any problem with what Adolin did. I'm not even sure how Kal will feel about it, especially if Adolin sought him out for advice before (if) it became public knowledge. I doubt he would be thrilled about it, but Kal also knows a ton of the history with Sadeas, and he might see it as a "kill to protect" scenario. Kal ultimately decides to protect Elokhar because 1) he is Dalinar's Tien and 2) he is trying to be a good king. There's no question Sadea's motives are purely selfish and dangerous. I think Kal would be disappointed in Adolin, but I do not think he would be outraged. 

The reason why we wonder if Adolin could become an agent of Odium (even if it seems unlikely) but not Jasnah is because Adolin snapped while Jasnah did something cold and calculated that is "acceptable" in a darker setting like SA. Losing control like Adolin did is rarely looked up on favorably regardless of the setting or IRL.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Argel

[DSC01]

8 minutes ago, Argel said:

The reason people don't think she's going to Odium's side is because every shred of evidence we have points to her fighting to prevent that. I couldn't care less if she killed them in cold blood -- it was a calculated choice against some worthless thugs that the local authorities were either ignoring because they were not killing someone important enough or would have been caught and executed in a few more more weeks. And we already saw the ramifications to it -- Shallan arguably loses some respect for Jasnah and steals the fake soulcaster that night. We have not reason to expect more to come out of this. 

Adolin kills a highprince, and we still do not know the ramifications, and we know they could be big. More to the point, he snapped, which if nothing else raises the possibility he could snap again. The whole situation would imo be easier if he had done it in cold blood insteed of snapping. That's the wild card that sparks discussions. If Jasnah had had Sadeas assassinated we would just see it as long overdue.

Brandon himself has said that some of the KR orders would not have any problem with what Adolin did. I'm not even sure how Kal will feel about it, especially if Adolin sought him out for advice before (if) it became public knowledge. I doubt he would be thrilled about it, but Kal also knows a ton of the history with Sadeas, and he might see it as a "kill to protect" scenario. Kal ultimately decides to protect Elokhar because 1) he is Dalinar's Tien and 2) he is trying to be a good king. There's no question Sadea's motives are purely selfish and dangerous. I think Kal would be disappointed in Adolin, but I do not think he would be outraged. 

The reason why we wonder if Adolin could become an agent of Odium (even if it seems unlikely) but not Jasnah is because Adolin snapped while Jasnah did something cold and calculated that is "acceptable" in a darker setting like SA. Losing control like Adolin did is rarely looked up on favorably regardless of the setting or IRL.

 

But a premeditated murder is always judged more harshly than a crime of passion.

What Jasnah did was unquestionably more dark than what Adolin did. Sadeas was a self-admitted threat to the safety of the world. That threat needed to be removed. Did Adolin go about it the wrong way? Sure. But that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay different from coldly luring some petty thugs into a situation where you can execute them, simply as an illustration for an ethics lesson. 

Adolin may have lost control, but it wasn't just hotheaded nonsense. Sadeas had been conspiring against him and his family for months. He was a traitor and a selfish manipulator. And after being treated honorably over and over and over again, all while apparently doing everything he could to prove that he was not worthy of such treatment, he vows that he will kill Adolin's father right to face--that he will undermine their efforts to save the world, even as he stands in a mythic city after escaping an apocalyptic storm (both strong evidence that saving the world is exactly what his opponents are doing). 

So, yes, maybe Adolin could snap again. You know, if someone once again spends months attempting to wipe out his family with impunity, then happily affirms to Adolin, in person, that he's not going to stop trying to murder them. Anyone might be expected to snap under that kind of pressure. The same cannot be said of deliberately plotting to entice someone into an alley so that you can kill them in cold blood. I don't see either Jasnah or Adolin's actions as unforgivable--or even all that criminal, honestly--in the context of this fantasy world, but realistically, it's just insane to look at Adolin as the bigger offender.

[Argel]

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

But a premeditated murder is always judged more harshly than a crime of passion.

No, that is highly dependent on the circumstances and the society/culture. For example, do you think a hitman for the mob that successfully pulls off a hit is being judged harshly by his organization?

Edited August 5, 2016 by Argel

[DSC01]

I totally understand that Alethi society would judge Adolin more harshly, but considerations of whether or not Adolin might go over to Odium, etc., are likely not dependent on Alethi values. That's what I find odd about a lot of discussions about Adolin killing Sadeas: many people seem to be adopting an Alethi view of morality.

Yes, how the Alethi view ethics is very important in considering what the consequences will be, but it seems to me that the series invites the reader to judge characters' actions outside of the context of their society's views on morality. These are people who are scandalized by nude hands (as long as it's the left one and is on a woman). It's indecent for men and women to eat the same kinds of foods. The color of one's eyes determines the extent to which one will be treated as a human being. Conflict is treated as a positive thing--conflict just for its own sake, mind you--with petty squabbles that result in the loss of life for no good reason treated as glorious affairs. 

And maybe we're arguing at cross-purposes here and actually agree, but the same can't be said of what I've seen in other arguments. A lot of people seem to think that Adolin is an attainted villain for killing Sadeas--horrified that he would do something so wicked--while they think Jasnah essentially blameless, almost as if they themselves have adopted an Alethi view of morality. And, again, of course Alethi law and Alethi values will determine a lot about how Adolin is treated by other Alethi, but these have nothing to do with whatever standard of moral judgement might be applied to determine his suitability for being a Knight Radiant or the possibility that he will be turned to Odium. 

[one winged jhereg]

I feel bad about bringing up Adolin becoming Odium's champion now.  It wasn't so much that I thought what he did was in anyway influenced by Odium, nor do I think that any of the "ramifications" of his actions will truly lead him to a path where he turns "evil."  I just want something EPIC to happen with him because he's such an interesting character.  I worry that he is going to get overshadowed or placed on a back burner to provide room for the powered up characters to keep growing and new ones to show up.  I don't want him to become a KR just like all his friends and family, I think that could get old quick.  I like the thought of an Average Joe finding his place in a world of super humans.  I was just hoping that that place was as Odium's Champion in a final duel for the fate of the world, in which neither side got to use magic.  Just your basic to 2 men enter 1 man leaves kinda thing.  Stupid, I know, but...sometimes in this crazy Cosmere it's got to come down to just the regular people who live in it, not the 1%er magic users. 

[maxal]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

 

Are you assuming Sebarial will be paying her forever? Because if she loses that money then that's it for her family. They will be worse off than the elite darkeyed merchants. Or completely beholden to the Ghostbloods. Being a highprincess (is that the right term?) means money and status. You do remember that she's not actually related to Sebarial, right? I don't think she will want to assume it will be there. Arguably her family is in far more desperate straights than ever before. I really do not get how you can miss these problems or the possibilities a marriage to Adolin would still bring (assuming he's not e.g. exiled). 

Shallan is not an acknowledged Radiant: she ranks higher than anyone else. I'd say the days where she needed a patron are long since gone. She no longer is the scared little girl without any means, desperate to find anyone willing to help: she is a Radiant, she has found an ancient city. The days where she had to scramble for every penny are gone: her family will be given large lodgings and funds simply for being "Lady Radiant" family. She does not need neither Sebrarial nor Adolin anymore. In fact, I'd say marrying Adolin would imply her sacrificing her great deal of liberty while being more or less forced to obey to Dalinar's whim.

Wherever Shallan is going, there is one thing I am quite sure of: she won't readily follow Dalinar's lead simply because he is Dalinar. She just isn't this kind of person. 

4 hours ago, Argel said:

The reason people don't think she's going to Odium's side is because every shred of evidence we have points to her fighting to prevent that. I couldn't care less if she killed them in cold blood -- it was a calculated choice against some worthless thugs that the local authorities were either ignoring because they were not killing someone important enough or would have been caught and executed in a few more more weeks. And we already saw the ramifications to it -- Shallan arguably loses some respect for Jasnah and steals the fake soulcaster that night. We have no reason to expect more to come out of this. 

Adolin kills a highprince, and we still do not know the ramifications, and we know they could be big. More to the point, he snapped, which if nothing else raises the possibility he could snap again. The whole situation would imo be easier if he had done it in cold blood insteed of snapping. That's the wild card that sparks discussions. If Jasnah had had Sadeas assassinated we would just see it as long overdue.

Brandon himself has said that some of the KR orders would not have any problem with what Adolin did. I'm not even sure how Kal will feel about it, especially if Adolin sought him out for advice before (if) it became public knowledge. I doubt he would be thrilled about it, but Kal also knows a ton of the history with Sadeas, and he might see it as a "kill to protect" scenario. Kal ultimately decides to protect Elokhar because 1) he is Dalinar's Tien and 2) he is trying to be a good king. There's no question Sadea's motives are purely selfish and dangerous. I think Kal would be disappointed in Adolin, but I do not think he would be outraged. 

The reason why we wonder if Adolin could become an agent of Odium (even if it seems unlikely) but not Jasnah is because Adolin snapped while Jasnah did something cold and calculated that is "acceptable" in a darker setting like SA. Losing control like Adolin did is rarely looked up on favorably regardless of the setting or IRL.

The reason nobody thinks Jasnah is doing Odium's work merely is because she already is a Radiant. There is no reason to think a Radiant can't fall prey to the evil entity, in fact I'd argue they are to be more easily corrupted than normal individuals because they were broken, they have strong weaknesses and they tend to carry a LOT of anger through them. 

I would also state we do not know the first things about those thugs, we merely know what Jasnah has assumed, but within history, those small scale criminals were often born in poor neighborhood and had to revolve to steal to survive. Or they get drag into street gangs as children and once you set a foot in one of those, you aren't getting out. These petty thugs may have been nothing more than poor fellows which were turned criminals by the circumstances of their life. What would a prissy spoiled princess even understand of the hardships of common people? She walks in there, exhibiting her wealth, knowing full well it would attract thugs and without even taking the time to know who it was she was killing, she killed them. It wasn't up to her to take action nor to decide they should be executed unless she had specifically investigated each one of those individuals and declared there was nothing more to do with them than execution. Since she hasn't bothered to do so, she merely murdered men based on the fact they attacked them, being as ruthless as killing the ones who were fleeing.

Of course, nothing more is expected to come out of this event, but I think it safe to assume the one who kills with a cold heart is much more dangerous than the one who passionately loses control of himself after being stampeded on over and over again. The best villains always are the cold and calculation ones, the ones who think, the ones who kills without remorse, not the ones who stand half-traumatized over their actions and go into shock over their own killing. It is why Wax spared Wayne, because he had so much remorse, so much guilt, he figured he could turn the kid into someone good, if given the right tools and enough time. 

I think the snapping has a bad press for the wrong reasons. What is mind snapping? An even through which the brains conscious response gets completely overrun by the brain's impulsive response, such as the fight or flight response which gets normally passive individuals to act like enraged bears when a loved one is threaten. It is a highly documented phenomenon and it can happen to anyone but those highly subjected to stress are more sensitive to others. Thus Adolin's actions aren't something he'll willingly try to reproduce, it horrified him and for him to lose control again is likely to demand a higher stimulus, next time around. The kid has too much pressure, too much stress. Of course, he'll need to have to learn how to deal with his own emotional response in better ways, but as long as he is willing to work on it, as long as he feels guilty over his own failure, than I fear for nothing for his future.

Those I fear for are those with a motive to join the evil forces, those who may rationalized it may be for the best and those who are looking out for more power for themselves. 

 

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

I totally understand that Alethi society would judge Adolin more harshly, but considerations of whether or not Adolin might go over to Odium, etc., are likely not dependent on Alethi values. That's what I find odd about a lot of discussions about Adolin killing Sadeas: many people seem to be adopting an Alethi view of morality.

Yes, how the Alethi view ethics is very important in considering what the consequences will be, but it seems to me that the series invites the reader to judge characters' actions outside of the context of their society's views on morality. These are people who are scandalized by nude hands (as long as it's the left one and is on a woman). It's indecent for men and women to eat the same kinds of foods. The color of one's eyes determines the extent to which one will be treated as a human being. Conflict is treated as a positive thing--conflict just for its own sake, mind you--with petty squabbles that result in the loss of life for no good reason treated as glorious affairs. 

And maybe we're arguing at cross-purposes here and actually agree, but the same can't be said of what I've seen in other arguments. A lot of people seem to think that Adolin is an attainted villain for killing Sadeas--horrified that he would do something so wicked--while they think Jasnah essentially blameless, almost as if they themselves have adopted an Alethi view of morality. And, again, of course Alethi law and Alethi values will determine a lot about how Adolin is treated by other Alethi, but these have nothing to do with whatever standard of moral judgement might be applied to determine his suitability for being a Knight Radiant or the possibility that he will be turned to Odium. 

Ah thank you for those posts, they are eloquently written. I think what also set people is the fact he was angry when he killed Sadeas which is an emotion strongly attached to Odium. The problem I have with this assumption is it ignores the fact the most angry character in the book isn't Adolin, by far, but Kaladin. Even Jasnah, as she killed, was angry. So why does Adolin's anger get such a bad press and not the others? Well apart from the fact they are Radiants, and thus blameless, they also aren't externally expressive individuals. Whatever they feel, they keep it inside. The same cannot be said for Adolin who literally is an open-book of emotions. I'd point out here anger hardly is the only nor the most prevalent emotions Adolin feels within both books: anxiety and fear are much more present within his behavioral pattern, but also excitement and joy. Anger is just an emotion and simply because it exists does not mean someone is going to Odium. Also, I'd point out Adolin's anger mostly come out when he feels powerless at protecting his father, it comes from fear he may fail at what he perceives as his duty. It isn't because he hates the world and wants it gone.

42 minutes ago, one winged jhereg said:

I feel bad about bringing up Adolin becoming Odium's champion now.  It wasn't so much that I thought what he did was in anyway influenced by Odium, nor do I think that any of the "ramifications" of his actions will truly lead him to a path where he turns "evil."  I just want something EPIC to happen with him because he's such an interesting character.  I worry that he is going to get overshadowed or placed on a back burner to provide room for the powered up characters to keep growing and new ones to show up.  I don't want him to become a KR just like all his friends and family, I think that could get old quick.  I like the thought of an Average Joe finding his place in a world of super humans.  I was just hoping that that place was as Odium's Champion in a final duel for the fate of the world, in which neither side got to use magic.  Just your basic to 2 men enter 1 man leaves kinda thing.  Stupid, I know, but...sometimes in this crazy Cosmere it's got to come down to just the regular people who live in it, not the 1%er magic users. 

Nah don't feel bad about it: it has been stated often enough. I share your feelings when you say you wish something epic would happen to Adolin but I do not share them in thinking the evil path would do it. For my part, Evil Adolin simply isn't something I'd like to read: it would denature the character and turn him into someone he currently is not. I'd rather see the character we have now grow and learn as opposed to somehow forsake everything he ever stood for for.... for what? What would be Adolin incentive to join forces with an evil entity? I can't see any: power simply isn't something he wants. He wants his family and going evil would certainly not serve this purpose. 

I can see where you are coming from, but quite frankly I doubt the final battle will be a powerless one. I do agree however the "normal people" do not get a high enough presence into those stories. Adolin is basically the guy to which everything is happening which is why he is so interesting. Why he join the ranks of the heroes? Or will he find another place for him to be? I can't say, but if you want something epic, perhaps I can convince you of my personal favorite theory: Adolin revives his own Shardblade. That would be epic, different while allowing Adolin to be out Average Joe for quite a bit of time.

[Erklitt]

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

A lot of people seem to think that Adolin is an attainted villain for killing Sadeas--horrified that he would do something so wicked--while they think Jasnah essentially blameless, almost as if they themselves have adopted an Alethi view of morality.

I really don't think that's it. I see two other reasons for defending Jasnah and being critical of Adolin.

One is a tendency of many humans to become devil's advocate. When there's a wide-spread tendency in one direction some people - including me - like to take the other side.

In the case of Jasnah and Adolin there's (at least for probably 95 % of all readers) no question who is the more likeable character. Jasnah is cold and aloof while Adolin laughs with little darkeyed children. So when Adolin and Jasnah are in direct comparison and Adolin at first has all the sympathies, then there will be some resistence, if only for justice's sake. And the moment we feel Adolin gets some undue advantage due to his likeable personality, Jasnah's defence (and Adolin's condemnation) will become fierce. It's like we feel the more likeable a character is the more harsh we need to be in our judgment - if we want to claim any impartiality that is. And strong defenses on the grounds that he is such a nice guy will just make us more determinded to be impartial.

The other - and stronger - reason is that I think many feel like the justice systems of our own world and time are far from perfect too. They have their own in-built injustices. And while in real life we have no defense against that, a fantasy novel gives us a chance to judge differently - more justly as we feel it.

Jasnah's case is ideal for this. There's a lot of evidence that in current western societies, perpetrators are much better protected then victims. Just one example: in Germany someone was attacked by four or five rogues. Someone else helped that person, breaking a nose in the process. Now the helper is accused of assault: he should have been more 'moderate' in the force he used. Another case: an old man surprised a burglar in his own house. He had a gun and pointed it at the burglar, the burglar turned to flee and the old man shot anyway. The burglar was killed. Technically, the old man shot a person in flight. But what do you expect: being woken in the middle of the night, finding a strange man in your house, being frightened and confused while barely awake: was that shot really 'wrong'?

Jasnah's case ties strongly into stories like that. Her first kill was evidently self-defense. But were her other kills really 'wrong'? Venting our frustration with that kind of judgment is really venting our frustration with the legal systems we currently have. It's the rage at a kind of 'justice' that is far more concerned with offenders not being treated too harshly than with protecting victims. And those strange evaluations of Jasnah's behavior (like even her first kill was wrong - "why did she have to go there in the first place?!" as if it was a moral duty to stay away from dangerous places so as not to endanger the villains by our readiness to self-defend!!! ) !!!!

Edited August 5, 2016 by Erklitt

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

I would also state we do not know the first things about those thugs, we merely know what Jasnah has assumed, but within history, those small scale criminals were often born in poor neighborhood and had to revolve to steal to survive. Or they get drag into street gangs as children and once you set a foot in one of those, you aren't getting out. These petty thugs may have been nothing more than poor fellows which were turned criminals by the circumstances of their life. What would a prissy spoiled princess even understand of the hardships of common people? She walks in there, exhibiting her wealth, knowing full well it would attract thugs and without even taking the time to know who it was she was killing, she killed them. It wasn't up to her to take action nor to decide they should be executed unless she had specifically investigated each one of those individuals and declared there was nothing more to do with them than execution. Since she hasn't bothered to do so, she merely murdered men based on the fact they attacked them, being as ruthless as killing the ones who were fleeing.

That is verifiably incorrect. For 2 months they have killed people on three separate occasions. The guard and the king have full knowledge of the occurrences as the king himself has looked into the matter and attempted to resolve it but was blocked by an influential lighteyes. Shallan also commented on how the crimes they committed to the individuals they committed it to is punishable by death. There is no going back for these men. They are already marked for death for crimes they committed in the past. They have a history of murder. And if you re-read the scene, this isn't a crime gone wrong. These are men taking pleasure in the goal of ending these women's lives and taking all they have. This is why I am working on that thread. I am just sorry it is taking me so long to gather everything I want to gather to make a clear, fully factual, and informed thread to discuss this topic on. I still need to gather the laws of various states mentioned in the other thread, as well as cite references of in world laws. 

edit: just in case to be clear, i was not implying you were being duplicitous. I merely stated the clear fully factual and informed comment, because I am posting the full passage, as well as the laws of those states, and the laws in the books. Then at the end i would provide my own interpretation, but all of that would be present for anyone to reference and interpret as they see fit instead of having to go based on memory. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Erklitt]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is verifiably incorrect. For 2 months they have killed people on three separate occasions. The guard and the king have full knowledge of the occurrences as the king himself has looked into the matter and attempted to resolve it but was blocked by an influential lighteyes. Shallan also commented on how the crimes they committed to the individuals they committed it to is punishable by death. There is no going back for these men. They are already marked for death for crimes they committed in the past. They have a history of murder. And if you re-read the scene, this isn't a crime gone wrong. These are men taking pleasure in the goal of ending these women's lives and taking all they have. This is why I am working on that thread. I am just sorry it is taking me so long to gather everything I want to gather to make a clear, fully factual, and informed thread to discuss this topic on. I still need to gather the laws of various states mentioned in the other thread, as well as cite references of in world laws. 

Thanks, @Pathfinder for this voice of reason and common sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Argel]

 

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

but it seems to me that the series invites the reader to judge characters' actions outside of the context of their society's views on morality

Except in a thread about Adolin's in-world fate an out of context evaluation is, to be blunt, off-topic. 

27 minutes ago, maxal said:

she is a Radiant, she has found an ancient city

We don't know how the KR stuff is going to play out. There's the heavy bias against them thanks to Vorin teachings and it's not like there's a KR bank they can start drawing money from. The one big thing in her favor is she has a shardblade, but it's not like she has been given some special titles or land by anyone yet. Maybe the KRs claim Urithiru as their own, though it's not clear what resources are available there. A lot of logistics to work out, which I assume will be part of SA3. But the point is becoming a KR doesn't come with all of those problems figured out.  And there's still the Ghostblood problem.

[DSC01]

25 minutes ago, Argel said:

Except in a thread about Adolin's in-world fate an out of context evaluation is, to be blunt, off-topic. 

What I'm talking about is how readers are morally judging Adolin. I realize that this is somewhat tangential to the topic at hand, but inevitably, discussions on what is going to happen to Adolin come down to the morality of him killing Sadeas. And inevitably, tons of people seem to think that it is the worst thing that any character in the series has done. 

Edit: P.S. The standards of moral judgement to which I refer are not necessarily derived from a perspective that is wholly outside of the story. What do you think Honor's moral judgement would be? What do you think Cultivation's is? Etc.

Edited August 5, 2016 by DSC01

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

What I'm talking about is how readers are morally judging Adolin. I realize that this is somewhat tangential to the topic at hand, but inevitably, discussions on what is going to happen to Adolin come down to the morality of him killing Sadeas. And inevitably, tons of people seem to think that it is the worst thing that any character in the series has done. 

I think this goes back to what was mentioned earlier about having more information and it not being out of character for her. Personally I think had Way of Kings ended with Jasnah killing the criminals, and saying to Shallan to think on that, without any confirmation that 1. she is a radiant, 2. WoB that what Adolin has done would be acceptable by other orders, and 3. That she is actively working to discover the voidbringers to prevent their return, then I believe people would be head long 99 percent thinking she is working for the big bad. But in fact we know the radiants have to follow their oaths in order to still be a radiant. We see Jasnah is still a radiant, so she did not break her oaths. Adolin is a similar situation in it involves murder, and Brandon said other orders would be cool with it. The very orders that oppose Odium. And finally like I said, her entire arch is her researching to prevent the voidbringers from returning which is Odium's main representatives. Based on what we know about Jasnah, it wouldn't make sense to think she is going to work for Odium. Could something happen to change that? Sure! But with the information we have right now that isn't likely. With the information we have regarding Adolin, we have no idea. Once we get to see Adolin more after the situation, or even a WoB then I am sure the theories about him being Odium's champion will die down. The less info you have, the more theories will pop up. 

[one winged jhereg]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I can't say, but if you want something epic, perhaps I can convince you of my personal favorite theory: Adolin revives his own Shardblade. That would be epic, different while allowing Adolin to be out Average Joe for quite a bit of time.

With the WoB about reviving shardblade being a once in a lifetime thing, that would make it epic. It would also keep him low powered til it happened, and then we have to deal with the consequences of a revived blade...which is a topic I have some (not so popular) thoughts on 

Edited August 5, 2016 by one winged jhereg
forgot to mention that i love this idea for Adolin and consider me a convert

[Oversleep]

We also don't know whether and how would the case of murder of Sadeas show up - I mean, it's not like they can gather fingerprints or anything of the sort... Furthermore, at the time Adolin had a broken wrist and Sadeas was not killed by a Shardblade while everybody knows that Adolin Kholin is a Shardbearer et cetera et cetera.

It's possible that Adolin will spend a part of a book while being eaten away by guilt (it reminds me of Crime and Punishment a little).

As for Dalinar's reaction, I think he'll both understand that on some basic level it was a right thing to do while completely angry for Adolin becoming a murderer. A little similar to how he simultaneously was furious at Kaladin and then thanked him for saving his sons.

[Argel]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

As for Dalinar's reaction

The problem for Adolin here is that the old Blackthorn Dalinar would understand maybe even have done it himself, but the "Way of Kings" Dalinar will be disappointed.  Though with that said, if the Bondsmiths are the KR leaders and what Adloin did is okay for some of the KR orders, then...  Well, I guess the KR/public Dalinar may -- I hesitate to say approve, but some kind of "acceptance", though I think in private he will be disappointed. But it's so hard to tell, more so if the Blackthorn Dalinar would have done it. There's also  the potential for bias towards his son. Much like how he lets Elokhar rule instead of going for a power grab which he probably should have done in hindsight.  Anyway, it's so hit or miss with so many characters!! I wish Brandon would release a teaser chapter that actually shed some light on this. 

2 hours ago, DSC01 said:

Edit: P.S. The standards of moral judgement to which I refer are not necessarily derived from a perspective that is wholly outside of the story. What do you think Honor's moral judgement would be? What do you think Cultivation's is? Etc.

Again, this is a thread about Adolin's fate. Start a new thread for those kinds of discussions. If you can tie them in specifically with a cerdible idea, then that's different, but e.g. given how we have yet to see Cultivation in action, I don't see how she's relevant to this thread. The Stormfather could be if you think he will influence Dalinar (or others), but it should be something specific that adds to this thread. Though I'm not sure how Stormfather or Honor would view someone like Sadeas or how Dalinar  has left him alone. In fact, a case could be made that if Dalinar was doing his job, Sadeas would have been taken care of already, and the reason Adolin is in this situation is because his father was too caught up in ideals. For example, is it really honorable to let Sadeas get away with trying to wipe out Dalinar and Adolin along with most of his army? We saw for the longest time that Dalinar tried to lead by example instead of as he put it treating the others like children.

Anyway, there's a new angle for us -- Dalinar feeling guilty about it. 

Also, now that I think about it, wasn't Dalinar the Highprince of War at that time? Not sure if that has been explored. And with the KRs forming and Dalinar being a KR, there's that angle to. I'm inclined to think the Skybreakers would disapprove, but on the other hand someone declaring he's going to undermine the efforts, credibility, etc. of the KRs during a Desolation.... The Skybreakers may just be more upset that it wasn't one of them who did it, or that Adolin snapped instead of doing it calmly.

 

[Elenion]

The core belief of Alethi ethics appears to be a strange variation of capitalism: every person is not only encouraged but expected to serve their own self above anyone else. The only crime is going against the plan or belief of someone above you socially.

Jasnah's transformation/murder of the dark-alley crooks will carry very few repercussions because she didn't cause injury to someone above her in the social hierarchy. The only people affected would be common darkeyes, possibly the families of the crooks, and they are so far down the social hierarchy that they have no chance of even talking to Jasnah, let alone seeking retribution. Jasnah will also stay guilt-free because of her "philosophy".

Adolin's murder of Sadeas is another matter. The murder will affect Sadeas' immediate allies among the highprinces in a detrimental way, and so they will have both the motive and the means to get back. Political intrigue is a given; assassins a possibility. Adolin will probably experience some guilt, but since Sadeas tried to kill him I'm pretty sure Adolin will end with feeling justified.

 

7 hours ago, Oversleep said:

It's possible that Adolin will spend a part of a book while being eaten away by guilt (it reminds me of Crime and Punishment a little).

Great book, by the way. However, (Crime and Punishment spoilers)

Spoiler

I attribute Raskolnikov's guilt mainly to the spur-of-the-moment murder of innocent Lizaveta Ivanovna instead of that of Aliona. Raskolnikov's justifications for crime would have worked, in my opinion, had he not had to commit the second murder. Adolin, on the other hand, slew no innocent, only Sadeas, and so I doubt he will experience the same intensity of guilt.

Non-spoiler summary of spoiler tag: Adolin won't be crippled by his guilt, only handicapped.

[maxal]

17 hours ago, Erklitt said:

...

This has been one of my arguments: because Adolin has been, so far, described as being the picture perfect portray of the ideal Alethi, most people gather something bad will automatically happen to him. I would hazard myself into saying it goes back to tropes: readers end up expecting certain predicted patterns out of the stories they read. For instance, Kaladin definitely is the hero while Adolin is the superfluous character which does not serve a defined purpose. Hence, readers go back to tropes to try to figure it out. Instantaneously, they make the link in between Adolin and Anakin Skywalker and decide if one can become an evil entity simply out of fear he would fail to protect his loved ones (and thus ending up killing them), then Adolin must do the same. In a similar way, they aren't pinning Elhokar for a turn to the dark, even if personality wise he is more likely, because the last scenes we have of him features him being somewhat humbled even if drunk. Adolin's last scene is him standing above a dead body. The fact he is horrified by his own actions somewhat does not register into many readers minds.

People are being harsh when it comes to Adolin, harsher than with any other character, and it is hard to figure out why exactly. Is it because, as you say, he is too likable hence people try to hammer into him more strongly? Is it because we spend so much time within Kaladin's head, we end up adopting his views on everything including Adolin? Why are so many readers calling Adolin a "spoiled brat", but very few are using the words to describe Renarin or Jasnah whom are, just as spoiled if not more? So why is it always Adolin who gathers the negative comments? It is baffling. 

The problem with Jasnah is she told us her intentions.. Had she simply been attacked without us being privy to her cold calculations, then my personal thoughts would be different. Should she be able to walk in any part of the city while wearing her most expensive jewelry in all safety? Well, yes of course, in an ideal world, but in the less perfect one in which we all live, we all know this simply isn't possible. There are some parts of some towns where you should simply not walked alone at night and there are some towns in some countries where you should never show you have money (and by money I do not mean rich, I mean simply having new shoes). There are places in the world where women should wear certain clothes because otherwise it would be dangerous for them... Is it right? Of course not, but it is reality. The liberty of one ends where the liberty of others start and if others take their liberties with your broadcast richness, then there isn't much you can do about it. Is it wrong? Of course, but fighting against crime is a never ending battle.Therefore, the one person who goes against those "rules" is either naive or an idiot. Jasnah is neither. She wanted to kill those thugs and she did. The problem was it wasn't up to her to do it. You can't have people doing their own justice within the streets, to allow it is to allow chaos. Therefore, no matter how I shuffle it, Jasnah's actions do not sit well with me and while I certainly do not think she is an "evil" character (I launched this idea to contrast the one where Adolin becomes one), but she has a ruthless, cunning, cold side which, quite frankly, I am not sure what to make of. 

17 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

That is verifiably incorrect. For 2 months they have killed people on three separate occasions. The guard and the king have full knowledge of the occurrences as the king himself has looked into the matter and attempted to resolve it but was blocked by an influential lighteyes. Shallan also commented on how the crimes they committed to the individuals they committed it to is punishable by death. There is no going back for these men. They are already marked for death for crimes they committed in the past. They have a history of murder. And if you re-read the scene, this isn't a crime gone wrong. These are men taking pleasure in the goal of ending these women's lives and taking all they have. This is why I am working on that thread. I am just sorry it is taking me so long to gather everything I want to gather to make a clear, fully factual, and informed thread to discuss this topic on. I still need to gather the laws of various states mentioned in the other thread, as well as cite references of in world laws. 

edit: just in case to be clear, i was not implying you were being duplicitous. I merely stated the clear fully factual and informed comment, because I am posting the full passage, as well as the laws of those states, and the laws in the books. Then at the end i would provide my own interpretation, but all of that would be present for anyone to reference and interpret as they see fit instead of having to go based on memory. 

Ah well, I have been obviously working from memory, my bad. Then again, how could she be sure the individuals whom attack her indeed were the same individuals which have been convicted? Even if they were, Jasnah is not law enforcement: it just wasn't up to her to take action. It doesn't matter if the king didn't take actions himself, it still wasn't up to her. I guess many readers applaud her for "cleaning" the city of a few thugs by using her superiority and her status as a foreign princess to shelter herself from any repercussion, but I didn't. It seemed too random and the action does not match her attitude in other scenes.This is where I am bothered the most, the fact she took upon herself to kill those people. Had it been a chance meeting, I would have reacted completely differently, it is the fact it happened exactly how she wanted it... It grates on me in a rather negative way.

17 hours ago, Argel said:

 

Except in a thread about Adolin's in-world fate an out of context evaluation is, to be blunt, off-topic. 

We don't know how the KR stuff is going to play out. There's the heavy bias against them thanks to Vorin teachings and it's not like there's a KR bank they can start drawing money from. The one big thing in her favor is she has a shardblade, but it's not like she has been given some special titles or land by anyone yet. Maybe the KRs claim Urithiru as their own, though it's not clear what resources are available there. A lot of logistics to work out, which I assume will be part of SA3. But the point is becoming a KR doesn't come with all of those problems figured out.  And there's still the Ghostblood problem.

Being a Shardbearers automatically makes you 4th dahn and allows you to join any house wanting you under any Highprince. Well, this last one depends on where the Shardblades comes from, but in the case of Shallan, since it comes from no previous attached, she merely has to join any house which would have her. Once inside a house, I assume she gets a pay check of sorts. In any advent, I doubt Shallan is going to go wanting for money in the near future. She has status enough to ensure her own survival and to care for her brothers.

Ghostbloos is a problem, I agree, but not one which can be solved by marring Adolin.

I simply do not buy Shallan still needing the engagement with Adolin, but we may have to RAFO on this one.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think this goes back to what was mentioned earlier about having more information and it not being out of character for her. Personally I think had Way of Kings ended with Jasnah killing the criminals, and saying to Shallan to think on that, without any confirmation that 1. she is a radiant, 2. WoB that what Adolin has done would be acceptable by other orders, and 3. That she is actively working to discover the voidbringers to prevent their return, then I believe people would be head long 99 percent thinking she is working for the big bad. But in fact we know the radiants have to follow their oaths in order to still be a radiant. We see Jasnah is still a radiant, so she did not break her oaths. Adolin is a similar situation in it involves murder, and Brandon said other orders would be cool with it. The very orders that oppose Odium. And finally like I said, her entire arch is her researching to prevent the voidbringers from returning which is Odium's main representatives. Based on what we know about Jasnah, it wouldn't make sense to think she is going to work for Odium. Could something happen to change that? Sure! But with the information we have right now that isn't likely. With the information we have regarding Adolin, we have no idea. Once we get to see Adolin more after the situation, or even a WoB then I am sure the theories about him being Odium's champion will die down. The less info you have, the more theories will pop up. 

We do not have no idea, we do have some ideas. The problem is not everyone agrees on what those ideas should be. I for one don't believe one second Adolin will go evil, but other readers aren't reading the same things as I am reading. Who is right, who is wrong? Well I certainly think I am right, but the other side certainly thinks I am shoveling clouds.

I agree Jasnah going evil seems improbable. I didn't mention it because I actually believed it could, I merely wanted a counter-example as to why everyone kept on pinning the evil role onto Adolin. Jasnah seemed a good candidate to offer a counter-argument because she committed murder. 

15 hours ago, one winged jhereg said:
With the WoB about reviving shardblade being a once in a lifetime thing, that would make it epic. It would also keep him low powered til it happened, and then we have to deal with the consequences of a revived blade...which is a topic I have some (not so popular) thoughts on 

Which unpopular thoughts to do you have on the consequences of reviving a dead Blade? For my part, based on what I have been able to gather on SA3, it seems as a highly probable theory.

15 hours ago, Oversleep said:

We also don't know whether and how would the case of murder of Sadeas show up - I mean, it's not like they can gather fingerprints or anything of the sort... Furthermore, at the time Adolin had a broken wrist and Sadeas was not killed by a Shardblade while everybody knows that Adolin Kholin is a Shardbearer et cetera et cetera.

It's possible that Adolin will spend a part of a book while being eaten away by guilt (it reminds me of Crime and Punishment a little).

As for Dalinar's reaction, I think he'll both understand that on some basic level it was a right thing to do while completely angry for Adolin becoming a murderer. A little similar to how he simultaneously was furious at Kaladin and then thanked him for saving his sons.

It is possible, but I doubt it. He'll be found in Part 1. Brandon will not let this story drag on for too long. My thoughts are there won't be many legal consequences, but whether or not others declare him guilty or not won't change a thing on how Adolin sees himself. This will be the on-going arc, not the "Who killed Sadeas?".

13 hours ago, Argel said:

The problem for Adolin here is that the old Blackthorn Dalinar would understand maybe even have done it himself, but the "Way of Kings" Dalinar will be disappointed.  Though with that said, if the Bondsmiths are the KR leaders and what Adloin did is okay for some of the KR orders, then...  Well, I guess the KR/public Dalinar may -- I hesitate to say approve, but some kind of "acceptance", though I think in private he will be disappointed. But it's so hard to tell, more so if the Blackthorn Dalinar would have done it. There's also  the potential for bias towards his son. Much like how he lets Elokhar rule instead of going for a power grab which he probably should have done in hindsight.  Anyway, it's so hit or miss with so many characters!! I wish Brandon would release a teaser chapter that actually shed some light on this. 

Again, this is a thread about Adolin's fate. Start a new thread for those kinds of discussions. If you can tie them in specifically with a cerdible idea, then that's different, but e.g. given how we have yet to see Cultivation in action, I don't see how she's relevant to this thread. The Stormfather could be if you think he will influence Dalinar (or others), but it should be something specific that adds to this thread. Though I'm not sure how Stormfather or Honor would view someone like Sadeas or how Dalinar  has left him alone. In fact, a case could be made that if Dalinar was doing his job, Sadeas would have been taken care of already, and the reason Adolin is in this situation is because his father was too caught up in ideals. For example, is it really honorable to let Sadeas get away with trying to wipe out Dalinar and Adolin along with most of his army? We saw for the longest time that Dalinar tried to lead by example instead of as he put it treating the others like children.

Anyway, there's a new angle for us -- Dalinar feeling guilty about it. 

Also, now that I think about it, wasn't Dalinar the Highprince of War at that time? Not sure if that has been explored. And with the KRs forming and Dalinar being a KR, there's that angle to. I'm inclined to think the Skybreakers would disapprove, but on the other hand someone declaring he's going to undermine the efforts, credibility, etc. of the KRs during a Desolation.... The Skybreakers may just be more upset that it wasn't one of them who did it, or that Adolin snapped instead of doing it calmly.

 

Actually, Dalinar goes harder on Adolin than on anyone else. He is being too lenient with both Elhokar and Renarin and he is being harder on Adolin (a WoB confirmed this). Thus closing his eyes on Adolin's actions as he has done so on Elhokar's bad ruling isn't likely to happen. When it comes to Adolin, Dalinar is already wired up to be harder, harsher, stricter. 

A teaser chapter on Adolin's future? Nah... I doubt this will happen until the book is nearly released: I mean the man does not let anything slip out when it comes to Adolin... All he has been slowly confirming is the high probability of the Blade revival arc, but again, it is a massive RAFO. 

Was it Dalinar's fault for having failed at dealing with Sadeas? Yes and no. Yes in the sense he hasn't dealt with and he has steadily ignore the threat he posed, but no in the sense his lack of actions can't be held accountable for Adolin killing Sadeas. In other words, he did not force Adolin to kill Sadeas. What he did though is ignore all the signs his son was having trouble coping and the increased pressure he has been under. He failed to noticed his own son was stressed out, he refused to broach the subjects with him, thus leaving him to deal with it on his own. He didn't. He snapped and while Dalinar may feel a form of guilt, such as feeling he has failed as a father, it still isn't his fault.

7 hours ago, Elenion said:

The core belief of Alethi ethics appears to be a strange variation of capitalism: every person is not only encouraged but expected to serve their own self above anyone else. The only crime is going against the plan or belief of someone above you socially.

Jasnah's transformation/murder of the dark-alley crooks will carry very few repercussions because she didn't cause injury to someone above her in the social hierarchy. The only people affected would be common darkeyes, possibly the families of the crooks, and they are so far down the social hierarchy that they have no chance of even talking to Jasnah, let alone seeking retribution. Jasnah will also stay guilt-free because of her "philosophy".

Adolin's murder of Sadeas is another matter. The murder will affect Sadeas' immediate allies among the highprinces in a detrimental way, and so they will have both the motive and the means to get back. Political intrigue is a given; assassins a possibility. Adolin will probably experience some guilt, but since Sadeas tried to kill him I'm pretty sure Adolin will end with feeling justified.

 

Great book, by the way. However, (Crime and Punishment spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

I attribute Raskolnikov's guilt mainly to the spur-of-the-moment murder of innocent Lizaveta Ivanovna instead of that of Aliona. Raskolnikov's justifications for crime would have worked, in my opinion, had he not had to commit the second murder. Adolin, on the other hand, slew no innocent, only Sadeas, and so I doubt he will experience the same intensity of guilt.

Non-spoiler summary of spoiler tag: Adolin won't be crippled by his guilt, only handicapped.

I disagree with you in stating Adolin will not feel guilt and will end up feeling justified. I think Sadeas's murder will always be the dark chip over his shoulder and it goes so violently against everything his father, his hero, tried to teach him, he will never forgive himself for having failed Dalinar. It isn't so much the fact he killed a man which will grate him the most, it is the fact he won't agree he should have done as he did it. He would have killed Sadeas in a formal duel where such actions are acceptable, but to kill him with his own hands in a dark tunnel? This isn't him, this is against his core belief where one should be fought at equal strength. He jumped on the man, he snapped, he lost it. 

There is no way he'll ever consider he did right. 

[Argel]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

He snapped and while Dalinar may feel a form of guilt, such as feeling he has failed as a father, it still isn't his fault.

I agree. I was just pointing out that Dalinar may feel guilt and regret over it, and that could affect his response. I think Dalinar would have preferred that he (Dalinar) did something his old Blackthorn self would have done instead of Adolin.

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I think Sadeas's murder will always be the dark chip over his shoulder and it goes so violently against everything his father, his hero, tried to teach him, he will never forgive himself for having failed Dalinar.

I'm not convinced on that. Maybe the flashbacks will shed more light, but e.g. if Dalinar has done the same or worse in his past and Adolin knows something about them, then I think that lessens things considerably. If Dalinar comes down on him hard having done worse in his own past then that could lead to a rift between two -- one where Adolin moves on with probably some regrets, but not as much guilt as you believe.

 

And good point about a shardbearer being 4th dahn. I forgot about that. Sebarial would likely take her in since he's so far along that path already and I don't think Shallan would object.

[Elenion]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

He would have killed Sadeas in a formal duel where such actions are acceptable, but to kill him with his own hands in a dark tunnel? This isn't him, this is against his core belief where one should be fought at equal strength. He jumped on the man, he snapped, he lost it. 

If Adolin really wanted to fight while at equal strength, he wouldn't have used Shardplate and a Shardplate against the Parshendi.

[Oversleep]

I think I know why Dalinar is harsher on Adolin. There are multiple reasons for that.

1. Adolin is the first son. The older siblings usually have it harder... but in this case, it also means he is an heir not only the the Kholin princedom, but a potential heir to the throne of the Alethkar itself. Adolin has to be ready for such things. Before somebody points out that Dalinar cuts Elhokar more slack, I want to remind that Elhokar is not Dalinar's son, so things are different.
2. Every father wants their children to be good. If he doubts himself, he wants them to be better than him. Dalinar is not exactly happy about the man he was, the Blackthorn. He wants Adolin to be better man than him, so he is harsher.
3. Tied to that, he is probably scared of Adolin taking after him. He may see Adolin becoming the next Blackthorn and is scared of that.
4. ... There was something else, but I forgot.

1 minute ago, Elenion said:

If Adolin really wanted to fight while at equal strength, he wouldn't have used Shardplate and a Shardplate against the Parshendi.

There is a difference between battle and a duel. For example, t is a good idea to lure enemy forces into a trap in battle; it is unacceptable to ambush the opponent in a duel.