Adolin's Fate?

vividox · August 9, 2016

Thanks for the responses, guys. Very helpful.

August 9, 2016

7 hours ago, Argel said:

Brandon said "personally", which sounds like it was written to be open to interpretation. As I mentioned above, I think the problem is he snapped. If he planned it out, it would be much less bothersome to me. Though like Brandon, I think believe Sadeas was a problem that needed to be dealt with, hence my comment about whether it was honorable to let Sadeas get away with so much (also above).

The question was "With how it was handled?" (past tense) but Brandon mentions "how it's handled" (present tense) so Brandon could mean how the murder is handled in a general sense, not in how Adolin committed the murder. That leaves all kinds of possibilities. Maybe Adolin has killed so many times in battle that it doesn't phase him as much as we expect but the political ramifications are severe. O the exact opposite. Or something completely different....

There are a lot of new members, not all of them lurkers for many years. If anything, we seem to have an influx of new, non-lurkers and several long time members have gone silent (e.g. Argent, Kurkistan, Voidus ), so it feels like we've lost a "sanity" check so to speak.

He did say "personally", but since he is the author, I trust his interpretations of his own characters motives more than my own. I believe his reasons for saying Adolin's actions are less dark comes with the idea Sadeas needed to die, there was no other way to deal with the very real problem he had become while the thugs didn't need to die, nor did they need Jasnah's intervention to stop their actions. My interpretations of Brandon's words thus is Adolin did a necessary evil while Jasnah did a good evil which could have been avoided had she wanted to. Of course, we are not left with many clues as to how else Jasnah could have dealt with the situations, providing her ultimate goal had been to catch those thugs, but the WoB seems to suggest the difference in between both actions seem to be drawn at their necessity. It seems this is how the author views it. We are, of course, free to view it differently.

As for the "how it was handled", I think he perhaps meant how Adolin handled it. He hid it the evidence, he acted as if he did wrong. It may be were he to come forward in a straight-forward way and openly claim Sadeas has threatened him while leaving him no choice but to kill him, the Alethi society would more readily accept his actions. By feeling guilty, Adolin is identifying himself as a criminal. It may be what Brandon meant.

My thoughts, as I have stated in an earlier posts, are the legal consequences will be less severe than the political ones. Politically speaking, it makes a lot of sense for many Highprinces to target Adolin and to want to get rid of him, forever.

Sorry for not posting the WoB, as I have stated in another post, I was not at home. The WiFi was terrible and just the thought to try to load more pages to hunt for it was discouraging in itself. So apologies here.

4 hours ago, DSC01 said:

No, we're not sure that he's going to be found out. I, for one, suspect that it will not become public knowledge. If it does, it will be a huge scandal, I'm sure, and it will put Elhokar in a very difficult position (and probably Dalinar, too). But I don't see that working for the plot. It would be a huge distraction, unless those calling for Adolin's blood were quickly stomped on by Dalinar putting his foot down and declaring that he's the boss now. The story does seem to be leaning towards Dalinar taking total control as a benevolent dictator, but I don't think that Adolin killing Sadeas being what takes us there is something that works very well.

I think that the biggest impact that Sadeas's death will have will result from Ialai's reaction. She is sure to cause some huge problems when she retaliates, and she may not even retaliate against the right person. In fact, I would wager that Jasnah would be her most likely target. When she reappears, Ialai will probably assume that her supposed death was part of a scheme of some sort, Jasnah being the most conniving of Sadeas's enemies.

I can see that being how Adolin's guilt comes out: Jasnah is targeted by Ialai's assassins, and Adolin eventually feels terrible enough about it that he confesses his deed.

It can't be assassins: nobody knew Sadeas was coming to the city. His presence was completely unexpected: an assassin would not have known where to find him unless Jasnah had an assassin secretly planted within the Sadeas household for months, just waiting to strike. Since Sadeas was not a threat when she initially left the Shattered Plains, it seems unlikely.

My thoughts are Adolin will be caught up and it will become public knowledge, but the consequences won't be as dire as many expect: no exile nor execution, but he will suffer from the many ramifications. I am unsure Ialai will be a threat: she has been positioned to become one, this is true, but it may be a Red Herring. We simply do not know how much agency and/or power the former wife of a deceased Highprince truly has. Navani seems to have lost most of it when Gavilar died, her circumstances were perhaps different, but it is hard to gauge how dangerous Ialai can truly be. I have personally filed her in "maybe she will be a problem, maybe she won't, it can go either way and I wouldn't be surprised".

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So to clarify a few things, first, although it is a little vague, it appears that the blade Adolin tossed out the window was Oathbringer. He kept his knife, and scratched out the marks he made on the wall with his shardblade. Ialai was not that far ahead so I think they would notice Sadeas's absences shortly, though Adolin appeared to have enough time to leave the crime scene, and appear far enough away that the scouts would think he was in that new area all along. So it appears he still has the bloody cufflinks, and murder weapon on his person for later disposal. As it is somewhat ambiguous, I have included the passage below and bolded the pertinent portions:

Sadeas shook for a moment, blood pooling around the blade as Adolin worked it to be certain. A second later, a shardblade appeared beside Sadeas – his father’s Shardblade. Sadeas was dead. Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. Stormed. Had he just done that? Had he just murdered a highprince? Dazed, he stared at that weapon. Neither man had summoned his Blade for the fight. The weapons might be worth a fortune, but they’d do less good than a rock in such a close – quarters fight. Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out the window, dropping it down into one of the platerlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there.

After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along.

So it looks like when referring to a shardblade, it gets a capital B, which is why I believe it was Oathbringer he dropped, rather than the knife. Since it does not specifically say he picked up the murder weapon, it could still be in Sadeas's eye. But I do not think so, as he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, and it did not note what he did with them. I do not think he would just leave them on the floor as that would aid in identifying him. So although it does not explicitly state it, I am personally leaning that he still has the bloody cuffs, and knife on his person till he can find a better way to dispose of them, and left oathbringer where it was to possibly grab it later, since he remarks to himself that it should be safe there.

The knife has been discussed in a very old thread... I can't remember all that was said, but people seemed to agree we didn't know if he either tossed it away or took it back with him. It is not explicitly stated either way. On Tor.com, they are positive he took it back, but after reading the scene, I see no evidence he did. Then again, I see no evidence he didn't. We made the same analysis you did here. Since he refers to the Blade by "the weapons" on the third line right before stating he pick up the Blade to toss it out of the window. The general consensus, as I recall it, was he has been referring to the Shardblade the whole time and not the knife thus implying there is no conclusive evidence about the whereabouts of the knife.

Clearly, he is in shock when going through the motions of hiding the clues which makes it plausible he would have thought to remove his cuffs, to hide the Shardbalde, to remove his mark, but to completely forget everything about the murder weapon or to even dispose of the cuffs adequately. It would be inline with the frazzled and dizzy reaction after one suffers a hard emotional shock. The fact the author saw fit to describe in such details Adolin's actions while not mentioning what he did with the knife and the cuff is reason enough to ask ourselves the questions.

At the time, we also all wondered if the knife of a Prince would arbor distinctive signs which may lead to him, in the eventuality he left it there, but there were no conclusive evidence. Since then, we have all read/listened to the second Dalinar flashback, the one where he hunts... for his knife. In it, he specifies his knife had a special engraving on it which seems to lean towards Adolin's knife to arbor a distinctive sign of sorts. Of course, these merely are here-say and it isn't supported by any formal textual evidence I am aware of.

It may thus be Adolin didn't hide his tracks as best as he should.

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

You know, reading that now, it occurs to me that Adolin probably intends to retrieve Oathbringer and stash it somewhere. I had always read him ditching it as sort of a panicked reaction. My thinking was that he freaked out, threw away the Shardblade, then calmed down a bit and covered up the evidence. Looking at that again, getting rid of Oathbringer was part of him calming down and obscuring the evidence. To be fair, it isn't completely insane to read someone throwing a Shardblade out a window as a panicked course of action.

Why would he throw the Shardblade out of the window? Let's think about it... Those who'll find Sadeas's body will expect to find the Shardblade. When it isn't there, they will expect the killer took it. Of course, a 6 foot long weapon hardly is concealable, so they'll assume the killer is hiding within the un-explored tower, waiting the required 5 days to bound the Blade. It seems the most logical explanation for anyone stepping onto the scene providing no incriminating elements are found near by.

Was this his chain of thoughts at the moment? It seems too complicated, too cunning for someone who appears horrified by his own actions. My thoughts are he just panicked, he saw Oathbringer and he removed it. I doubt he had any intentions to retrieve it at a later time, why would he want to retrieve it anyway? What is he to do with a Shardblade? He can't very well bond it unless he managed to go missing for 5 days.

Argel · August 9, 2016

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Since it does not specifically say he picked up the murder weapon, it could still be in Sadeas's eye. But I do not think so, as he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, and it did not note what he did with them.

Ah, good point about throwing the shardblade. I have to disagree though -- nothing is mentioned of the knife once it goes in. There should have been some mention of it when he was stepping back. More likely he left it in to avoid even more blood. I guess the question then is how identifiable is that knife? Family crest on it? Maybe not if it's one meant to be used in battle -- easy to lose.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

It can't be assassins: nobody knew Sadeas was coming to the city.

While doubtful, there could be instructions to wait for a specific type of opportunity. No one there knows Jasnah is still alive, so she will not be a suspect unless she happens to show up e.g. the very next day. But other assassins are possible.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Argel

DSC01 · August 10, 2016

Adolin probably has the knife. It's most likely what he used to cut the cuffs off of his coat. A Shardblade would not be good for that at all.

As for Jasnah hiring assassins, why not? There are almost certainly a couple of assassins among the thousands that were brought to Urithiru. Spanreeds allow for instant communication. If Ialai were to imagine that Jasnah's apparent death was part of some scheme, I don't see why she wouldn't think that Jasnah was also in constant contact with agents she had on the Shattered Plains.

So, let's say you're an average (fairly high-ranking) guy among the Urithiru refugees, and you find out that Sadeas has been murdered. Would you suspect Adolin? Dalinar? Elhokar? I doubt it. Then Jasnah shows up, back from the dead, a couple of days later...

Oversleep · August 10, 2016

2 hours ago, Argel said:

I guess the question then is how identifiable is that knife? Family crest on it? Maybe not if it's one meant to be used in battle -- easy to lose.

I imagine that such high nobility probably has their insignia even on their shoelaces XD

But there are about... what, 2000 people sworn to the Kholins deeply hating Sadeas? I mean, he did betray and abandon them during battle... Maybe Adolin's knife wasn't different form a standard Kholin army knife.

And seeing as he cleaned up everything, I doubt he overlooked the knife - if he had enough sense to cut off his cuffs, he surely must have thought about the murder weapon.

August 10, 2016

18 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Adolin probably has the knife. It's most likely what he used to cut the cuffs off of his coat. A Shardblade would not be good for that at all.

As for Jasnah hiring assassins, why not? There are almost certainly a couple of assassins among the thousands that were brought to Urithiru. Spanreeds allow for instant communication. If Ialai were to imagine that Jasnah's apparent death was part of some scheme, I don't see why she wouldn't think that Jasnah was also in constant contact with agents she had on the Shattered Plains.

So, let's say you're an average (fairly high-ranking) guy among the Urithiru refugees, and you find out that Sadeas has been murdered. Would you suspect Adolin? Dalinar? Elhokar? I doubt it. Then Jasnah shows up, back from the dead, a couple of days later...

At this point in time, it is fair to assume Jasnah Kholin's death has been made public. Therefore, Ialai has no reason to suspect a dead person is responsible for her husband's death. Also, an assassin would not stab his victim in the eyes: it is sloppy. Also, an assassin would have left the Shardblade behind as there would have been no way to hide it, unless the assassin went into hiding within the city, but this would require intensive preparation... Sadeas had just arrived: no assassin hiding within his retinue would know, in advance, what they would find once they get there. Therefore, I do not buy the argument an assassin could have prepared to murder Sadeas, take the Shardblade, hide within the city with 5 days worth of provision while being relatively sure he/she wouldn't be found out. It just doesn't pass the test of in-depth analysis and while there may be some to suspect it was the work of an assassin, I do think conclusions will be rapidly made an assassin wouldn't have been able to plan for this specific kill.

If I am the average high-ranking guy among Urithiru? At first, I'd think the murderer must have been within the Sadeas's entourage because his arrival had been kept a secret. I would however ask myself several questions which would yield to the above reasoning. It can't be an assassin. It doesn't look like the work of an assassin and once someone notices the scratch mark onto the wall, then this theory falls apart. The mark indicates the killer was a member of the exploration parties as only they have been making such marks. It also indicates it was a chance encounter. Now who among the exploration parties would have the motives, the means and the opportunity to kill Sadeas?

I think it will be found easily enough Adolin has been wandering on his own for quite some time. Others will be able to attest he has gone missing for a while: someone may have noticed how always clean-cut Brightlord Adolin suddenly has a tattered and ripped uniform. People have also heard him make threats to Highprince Sadeas, I say the snare will fall on Adolin rather quickly.

12 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I imagine that such high nobility probably has their insignia even on their shoelaces XD

But there are about... what, 2000 people sworn to the Kholins deeply hating Sadeas? I mean, he did betray and abandon them during battle... Maybe Adolin's knife wasn't different form a standard Kholin army knife.

And seeing as he cleaned up everything, I doubt he overlooked the knife - if he had enough sense to cut off his cuffs, he surely must have thought about the murder weapon.

In my previous message, I highlighted the fact Dalinar's knife, in his second flashback, did have a special engraving on it which made it distinctive. It seems fair to assume Adolin's knife would be the same.

DSC01 · August 10, 2016

See, my assumption is that Jasnah will turn up soon after the murder is discovered. She would never be a suspect otherwise. My hypothesis that Ialai will blame Jasnah is entirely dependent on her showing up, alive, amidst the furor surrounding Sadeas's death. That would cast a lot of suspicion on her.

As for an assassin leaving a Shardblade behind, I really, really doubt that they would do that. Shardblades are worth waaaaaaaay more than whatever they're being paid. I expect that the discovery of the Shardblade will be a huge wild card for the investigation of the case. The value of a Shardblade is such that one would take enormous risks to retain one. Certainly, someone risking their life to kill someone for $5 thousand would go ahead and abandon their instructions when $5 billion dropped into their lap.

August 10, 2016

10 hours ago, DSC01 said:

See, my assumption is that Jasnah will turn up soon after the murder is discovered. She would never be a suspect otherwise. My hypothesis that Ialai will blame Jasnah is entirely dependent on her showing up, alive, amidst the furor surrounding Sadeas's death. That would cast a lot of suspicion on her.

As for an assassin leaving a Shardblade behind, I really, really doubt that they would do that. Shardblades are worth waaaaaaaay more than whatever they're being paid. I expect that the discovery of the Shardblade will be a huge wild card for the investigation of the case. The value of a Shardblade is such that one would take enormous risks to retain one. Certainly, someone risking their life to kill someone for $5 thousand would go ahead and abandon their instructions when $5 billion dropped into their lap.

Yes but it is still tenuous. How obvious will it be for those investigating the murder that Sadeas has been killed at the end of a struggle? Rip and tattered clothes may give it away: how likely are they to think it the work of an assassin? Especially Ialai who is very familiar with how assassins work. The knife into the eye ball indicate a direct confrontation which strikes to me as the opposite of what any assassin would try to do. Besides, the probability of Jasnah showing up in the days following the murder are rather slim. She is very far away, she still needs to find her way to the Shattered Plains and then find the Oathgate. I can't see her doing it in such a short lapse of time.

Of course, leaving a Shardblade behind is just foolish: nobody is going to think anybody is crazy enough to do it which is why they are likely to think the culprit is hiding, with the Blade, waiting to bond it. From a newcomer onto the crime scene, it may appear as the only logical explanation. However, for this ploy to work, it requires the assassin to know, in advance, hiding with a 6 foot long Shardblade will be possible. It also requires the assassin to have made preparation for his escape route, once the deed is done. It just cannot be done because Sadeas has arrived in a hidden city nobody is familiar with. The assassin can't be attached to any other party as he wouldn't have known where to find Sadeas, but the assassin also cannot be attached to the Sadeas party because he wouldn't have known his surrounding well enough to plan for it. That's the thing, assassination are always planned. Assassins will plan when they are going to kill, how they are going to kill and how they are going to escape: an assassin doesn't want to be caught. If he were caught, he could leak it back to whom hired him. Sadeas's murder scene screams "this was not the work of an assassin". For one, he wasn't kill using any methods an assassin would favor, a knife into the eye ball is too direct: nobody would think to try to take on a full Shardbearer straight-on. For two, there is no way for an assassin to have been able to plan for this murder. I think someone like Ialai will rapidly come to the conclusion it wasn't an assassin, but a spontaneous deed. After this, it merely is the matter of finding out who would be impulsive enough to do this, who wasn't accounted for at the time of the murder and who was within the vicinity of the murder.

Adolin removed one mark from the wall, but he didn't backtracked to remove the other ones. Anyone following his marks would end up in a dead end near by the murder scene. Anyone investigating the marks would find a break in them: Adolin pretended to be in another area, but his trail of marks won't be consequent not to mention others will be able to attest they haven't seen him in a while. I'd say he'll end up being suspected early on and if Ialai starts up with other culprits, she will rapidly eliminate them to narrow on Adolin: she is too smart not to see the obvious.

It all goes back to who had the means, the time and the motives to kill Sadeas? Adolin is the only one which fits all three.

Pathfinder · August 10, 2016

15 hours ago, maxal said:

It can't be assassins: nobody knew Sadeas was coming to the city. His presence was completely unexpected: an assassin would not have known where to find him unless Jasnah had an assassin secretly planted within the Sadeas household for months, just waiting to strike. Since Sadeas was not a threat when she initially left the Shattered Plains, it seems unlikely.

Why would he throw the Shardblade out of the window? Let's think about it... Those who'll find Sadeas's body will expect to find the Shardblade. When it isn't there, they will expect the killer took it. Of course, a 6 foot long weapon hardly is concealable, so they'll assume the killer is hiding within the un-explored tower, waiting the required 5 days to bound the Blade. It seems the most logical explanation for anyone stepping onto the scene providing no incriminating elements are found near by.

Was this his chain of thoughts at the moment? It seems too complicated, too cunning for someone who appears horrified by his own actions. My thoughts are he just panicked, he saw Oathbringer and he removed it. I doubt he had any intentions to retrieve it at a later time, why would he want to retrieve it anyway? What is he to do with a Shardblade? He can't very well bond it unless he managed to go missing for 5 days.

Sadeas's presence was not completely unexpected. Dalinar sent out an open invitation to the warcamps to go to the shattered plains to be teleported to Urithiru. Adolin was surprised that Sadeas accepted the invitation. The amount of time it took for Sadeas to organize his entire army, as well as camp followers, "break down" their mini "city" and relocate to Urithiru, would be sufficient enough to prepare and get an assassin into place.

I see his reaction regarding the shardblade as a mix of both daze and thought. He doesn't know Dalinar is now a Radiant. That is happening on the roof during or slightly after his murder of Sadeas. As far as Adolin is concerned, that is still his father's rightful blade taken from him by Sadeas. Now if we thought things through, we would know there was no way Adolin could present Oathbringer to his father without revealing him to be Sadeas's killer, but maybe in the daze, all he thought was getting his father's sword away from Sadeas and his people. At the very least, it was with the intention of depriving an enemy of a powerful shard. They still have shardplate. This would return them to the handicap they had in the beginning. I don't know if he thought it out that much, but again I feel it was more "This is my father's sword, I want to keep it safe from other people till I figure out what to do with it. Tossing it there seems like a good idea at least for now"

14 hours ago, Argel said:

Ah, good point about throwing the shardblade. I have to disagree though -- nothing is mentioned of the knife once it goes in. There should have been some mention of it when he was stepping back. More likely he left it in to avoid even more blood. I guess the question then is how identifiable is that knife? Family crest on it? Maybe not if it's one meant to be used in battle -- easy to lose.

While doubtful, there could be instructions to wait for a specific type of opportunity. No one there knows Jasnah is still alive, so she will not be a suspect unless she happens to show up e.g. the very next day. But other assassins are possible.

Maxal does make a good point about the potential crest, but even if it didn't, there would be the question of absence. A knife is used to kill Sadeas. Adolin's knife is suddenly unaccounted for. The connection might be made from that alone. Though it is a big might

12 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I imagine that such high nobility probably has their insignia even on their shoelaces XD

But there are about... what, 2000 people sworn to the Kholins deeply hating Sadeas? I mean, he did betray and abandon them during battle... Maybe Adolin's knife wasn't different form a standard Kholin army knife.

And seeing as he cleaned up everything, I doubt he overlooked the knife - if he had enough sense to cut off his cuffs, he surely must have thought about the murder weapon.

If it was a standard issue army knife I could see your point, but that would also require Adolin either stealing someone else's, thereby possibly implicating them, or having to get a new one. Again these issues are stretches, but are possibilities.

12 hours ago, maxal said:

Also, an assassin would not stab his victim in the eyes: it is sloppy. Also, an assassin would have left the Shardblade behind as there would have been no way to hide it, unless the assassin went into hiding within the city, but this would require intensive preparation...

42 minutes ago, maxal said:

Of course, leaving a Shardblade behind is just foolish: nobody is going to think anybody is crazy enough to do it which is why they are likely to think the culprit is hiding, with the Blade, waiting to bond it. From a newcomer onto the crime scene, it may appear as the only logical explanation. However, for this ploy to work, it requires the assassin to know, in advance, hiding with a 6 foot long Shardblade will be possible. It also requires the assassin to have made preparation for his escape route, once the deed is done. It just cannot be done because Sadeas has arrived in a hidden city nobody is familiar with. The assassin can't be attached to any other party as he wouldn't have known where to find Sadeas, but the assassin also cannot be attached to the Sadeas party because he wouldn't have known his surrounding well enough to plan for it. That's the thing, assassination are always planned. Assassins will plan when they are going to kill, how they are going to kill and how they are going to escape: an assassin doesn't want to be caught. If he were caught, he could leak it back to whom hired him. Sadeas's murder scene screams "this was not the work of an assassin". For one, he wasn't kill using any methods an assassin would favor, a knife into the eye ball is too direct: nobody would think to try to take on a full Shardbearer straight-on. For two, there is no way for an assassin to have been able to plan for this murder. I think someone like Ialai will rapidly come to the conclusion it wasn't an assassin, but a spontaneous deed. After this, it merely is the matter of finding out who would be impulsive enough to do this, who wasn't accounted for at the time of the murder and who was within the vicinity of the murder.

So a bunch of things. First the comment that an assassin would not stab a victim in the eye. There is the assassin Jasnah met with who was referred to as "The Weeper". The reason for this is she would carve out the eyes of the target she killed. So there is precedent for an assassin "going for the eyes". Second, Adolin in a daze hid the shardblade rather easily. Urithiru is a huge place that is just starting being explored. Placing the blade in a bolt hole in a place that would take weeks to fully explore is not unrealistic. Third, regarding the assertion that there is not enough time for an assassin to infiltrate a highprince's army, sneak into Urithiru, and remain undetected for multiple days. I have one name to counter that, Mraize. That is literally exactly what he did. He was able to get into an entourage, get into Urithiru, had enough free movement to locate Shallan and confront her at the exact right time to be with her one on one for an extended conversation. That is the exact scenario you stated was impossible to occur for Sadeas.

DSC01 · August 10, 2016

Well, we don't really know much about how assassins generally operate in this society. Szeth is the only one we've seen in action, and he is definitely atypical. If an assassin were not well-placed to poison their target, and that target was also a Shardbearer, a direct knife attack in close quarters, where a Shardblade isn't very useful, is a great strategy. With the Weeper, carving out the eyes is a calling card and not the means of assassination used, but people may still think of the Weeper when Sadeas is found. Jasnah is associated with the Weeper (or was 5 years ago), and that association may now be known or at least suspected.

I don't see Adolin being an immediate suspect (assuming he's able to keep it together and not act suspicious and that physical evidence against him isn't found) because Sadeas has been taunting him for a long time now. Sadeas abandoned Adolin and his father to die at the Tower. Sadeas has been involved in all kinds of plots to shame Dalinar and trouble the Kholins in various ways. There isn't a lot to suggest that now Adolin would have had enough, after putting up with the abuse for so long.

Now, to get back to my hypothesis that Jasnah will be a suspect, this does depend on when she shows up at Urithiru. If it's weeks later, she's less likely to be a suspect. But! If it's pretty soon after the killing (we don't know much about how Elsecalling works yet, so she could just suddenly teleport into the city at any moment), then there are going to be a lot of questions. Whether she only trusts those close to her with those answers, or she makes it public knowledge, people are going to be suspicious of her (seriously, travelling through Shadesmar as one of the Lost Radiants? That would seem just as shady as not saying anything to a lot of people). Furthermore, if the Shardblade is found before Adolin can recover it and if Jasnah makes no secret of the fact that she now has a Shardblade herself, that increases the likelihood of her being a suspect. After all, what kind of person ditches a Shardblade instead of finding some way to keep it? Someone who already has a Shardblade.

I know that last bit doesn't make much sense, if the assumption is that she hired an assassin to kill Sadeas, but I can still see someone's mind going that direction.

Argel · August 10, 2016

Sorry, but Jasnah is a stretch, even more so if she shows up with Hoid/Wit who could vouch for her. There will be too many things she has to catch up on. Why would she even be a suspect when she has been unaware of the events on the Shattered Plains. Shallan can testify to how old Jasnah's notes were. Yeah, someone that hates Jasnah and wants to to blame here solely on that might latch onto the idea, but I do not see it gaining credibility. If nothing else, shrewd politicians are going to want to see how things with the KRs play out. There's a powershift going on, even more so with Sadeas's removal. I"m not even sure how much trouble he could have really caused -- he may have been overplaying his hand when Adolin snapped.

August 10, 2016

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Sadeas's presence was not completely unexpected. Dalinar sent out an open invitation to the warcamps to go to the shattered plains to be teleported to Urithiru. Adolin was surprised that Sadeas accepted the invitation. The amount of time it took for Sadeas to organize his entire army, as well as camp followers, "break down" their mini "city" and relocate to Urithiru, would be sufficient enough to prepare and get an assassin into place.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So a bunch of things. First the comment that an assassin would not stab a victim in the eye. There is the assassin Jasnah met with who was referred to as "The Weeper". The reason for this is she would carve out the eyes of the target she killed. So there is precedent for an assassin "going for the eyes". Second, Adolin in a daze hid the shardblade rather easily. Urithiru is a huge place that is just starting being explored. Placing the blade in a bolt hole in a place that would take weeks to fully explore is not unrealistic. Third, regarding the assertion that there is not enough time for an assassin to infiltrate a highprince's army, sneak into Urithiru, and remain undetected for multiple days. I have one name to counter that, Mraize. That is literally exactly what he did. He was able to get into an entourage, get into Urithiru, had enough free movement to locate Shallan and confront her at the exact right time to be with her one on one for an extended conversation. That is the exact scenario you stated was impossible to occur for Sadeas.

Dalinar sent an invitation, true enough, but Adolin was surprised Sadeas, of all people, followed up on it. Clearly he had not send a forerunner to warn of his arrival and clearly Adolin was not expected to see him. He was obviously merely arriving which makes it very hard for an assassin to have the time to physically locate Sadeas not to mention the "place of murder" does not make sense, in an assassin point of view. Sadeas had been talking to his retinue minutes before he noticed Adolin, by all means, those people he just talked with couldn't have gone very far. It seems a far stretch for an assassin to make the assumption he'll have the time to kill, to clean the scene while remaining undetected. After all, Adolin heard Sadeas talking before he saw him, who's to say nobody heard them fight? Who's to say there are no witnesses? Agree, this is very tenuous as if witnesses there were, you would expect they would have intervene, but considering Sadeas has not been exactly alone in minutes before the killing is the kind of risk I doubt an assassin would be willing to take. Typically, assassin would observe their kill for a while, find a ploy to get rid of them: not spontaneously jump on them unaware. Well, I can't say with certainty this cannot happen, but it seems unlikely.

Mraize may have sneaked in and he may have found Shallan but he: 1) knew where to find her and 2) he only meant to speak to her for a few minutes not kill her. In this regards, Mraize's actions are plausible, but for an unknown assassin to have 1) been aware of Sadeas's imminent arrival, 2) know THIS was the right moment to strike, 3) use a strike to the eye ball which by all means has to be unconventional for assassins, especially against a Shardbearer. Adolin may have known about the close quarter thing, but would an assassin know? Training with Shardblade is very specific, it is a lot of assumption to have for one assassin.

In order for the assassin plot to work out, you would need to have an assassin attached to any warcamp already at Urithiru to find a way to sneak outside the city in order to purposefully spy on Sadeas to determine the exact moment he'll start to walk towards the city. He would also need to find a way to sneak into Sadeas's retinue, undetected and be reasonably sure the moment Sadeas was starring at the tapestry is the right one to strike. Since Sadeas was in a yet unexplored part of the city, it is logical to assume no assassin would have known of this specific area unless they had been specifically investigating it for the assassination and Blade hiding purposes, but then he would have no way of knowing Sadeas would walk into this specific area.

I am sorry but for my part, there are too many elements which do not work out for it to be an assassin and I certainly think our characters are going to come to the same conclusions. Even if an assassin could have sneaked into Sadeas's group, know he was coming, he still wouldn't have been able to know this exact time and place is the right moment to strike, nor would he have been able to plan any escape route. The method of killing also is peculiar for an assassin which is why I think Ialai is more likely to think the culprit is someone Sadeas was not afraid of, someone who managed to get very close. Maybe she won't think of Adolin, at first, she may think it was one of Sadeas's own soldier or general, but when each one of them ends up being accounted for, she will have to look elsewhere.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I see his reaction regarding the shardblade as a mix of both daze and thought. He doesn't know Dalinar is now a Radiant. That is happening on the roof during or slightly after his murder of Sadeas. As far as Adolin is concerned, that is still his father's rightful blade taken from him by Sadeas. Now if we thought things through, we would know there was no way Adolin could present Oathbringer to his father without revealing him to be Sadeas's killer, but maybe in the daze, all he thought was getting his father's sword away from Sadeas and his people. At the very least, it was with the intention of depriving an enemy of a powerful shard. They still have shardplate. This would return them to the handicap they had in the beginning. I don't know if he thought it out that much, but again I feel it was more "This is my father's sword, I want to keep it safe from other people till I figure out what to do with it. Tossing it there seems like a good idea at least for now"

It is true Adolin attaches a lot of importance to his own Shardblade, so it may be his spontaneous reaction would be to safeguard his father's Blade, thinking he would have it back. Of course, we all know Dalinar doesn't want Oathbringer back, he doesn't care, but these thoughts may be so alien for Adolin, it may not even cross his mind his father may not want it back.

It thus seems like a reasonable explanation. Adolin was in a daze, so I does not think he'd have any in-depth thought at the moment, but he may have been capable to think of protecting his father's Blade. The fact he may never be able to retrieve it and to give it back to Dalinar probably didn't register in him. I wouldn't even be surprised to find out he can't even remember which window crate he threw it on..... The one thing I am convinced of is he wasn't thinking straight and he didn't tied in all the lose ends.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Maxal does make a good point about the potential crest, but even if it didn't, there would be the question of absence. A knife is used to kill Sadeas. Adolin's knife is suddenly unaccounted for. The connection might be made from that alone. Though it is a big might

If it was a standard issue army knife I could see your point, but that would also require Adolin either stealing someone else's, thereby possibly implicating them, or having to get a new one. Again these issues are stretches, but are possibilities.

My point was if Adolin left the knife behind, if it is found, then it may incriminate him directly unless he lies and pretends it was stolen from him... If they do not find the knife, then it gets very hard to figure out which knife was used exactly: it could have been anyone's, but then again Ialai may also remember how Dalinar had once favored his knife to kill people. We haven't been given this flashback for no reasons... Sure there was Shshshshsh and her brother, but there also was Dalinar's knife and the killing.

I agree it is a stretch, but it could be played out. We could also mentioned the rip off uniform and ask ourselves if the Kholin has had time to have all of their things being transferred to the new city. In other words, how many changes of uniform does Adolin currently have with him and how is he to dispose of it or even to explain why the cuffs are missing? Someone will notice, it is impossible nobody will notice.

47 minutes ago, Argel said:

Sorry, but Jasnah is a stretch, even more so if she shows up with Hoid/Wit who could vouch for her. There will be too many things she has to catch up on. Why would she even be a suspect when she has been unaware of the events on the Shattered Plains. Shallan can testify to how old Jasnah's notes were. Yeah, someone that hates Jasnah and wants to to blame here solely on that might latch onto the idea, but I do not see it gaining credibility. If nothing else, shrewd politicians are going to want to see how things with the KRs play out. There's a powershift going on, even more so with Sadeas's removal. I"m not even sure how much trouble he could have really caused -- he may have been overplaying his hand when Adolin snapped.

I agree with Argel, Jasnah is a stretch. There is also the fact nobody would think to incriminate Alethkar's princess without hard evidence which they aren't going to find. We saw with Sadeas betrayal, unless evidence is found, words are meaningless. Jasnah is pretty safe, Adolin isn't because evidence will end up leading to him and he'll talk, he won't deny it.

This being said, I do agree removing Sadeas may have left a vaccuum to be filled in by a greater villain: always preferred a known enemy to an unknown one.

Pathfinder · August 10, 2016

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Dalinar sent an invitation, true enough, but Adolin was surprised Sadeas, of all people, followed up on it. Clearly he had not send a forerunner to warn of his arrival and clearly Adolin was not expected to see him. He was obviously merely arriving which makes it very hard for an assassin to have the time to physically locate Sadeas not to mention the "place of murder" does not make sense, in an assassin point of view. Sadeas had been talking to his retinue minutes before he noticed Adolin, by all means, those people he just talked with couldn't have gone very far. It seems a far stretch for an assassin to make the assumption he'll have the time to kill, to clean the scene while remaining undetected. After all, Adolin heard Sadeas talking before he saw him, who's to say nobody heard them fight? Who's to say there are no witnesses? Agree, this is very tenuous as if witnesses there were, you would expect they would have intervene, but considering Sadeas has not been exactly alone in minutes before the killing is the kind of risk I doubt an assassin would be willing to take. Typically, assassin would observe their kill for a while, find a ploy to get rid of them: not spontaneously jump on them unaware. Well, I can't say with certainty this cannot happen, but it seems unlikely.

Adolin is not surprised to find Sadeas is in the building. He is surprised he recognized the voice, and he is upset Sadeas came, but again, not surprised he is there. Here is the pertinent quote/scene:

Were those voices ahead? Adolin frownded, then continued down the corridor. Leaving his lantern behind so it wouldn’t give him away. He was surprised when he recognized one of the speakers down the hallway. Was that Sadeas? It was. The highprince stood with a scouting party of his own. Silently, Adolin cursed the wind that had persuaded Sadeas – of all people – to heed the call to come to Urithiru. Everything would have been so much easier if he’d just stayed behind. Sadeas gestured for a few of his soldiers to go down one branch of the tunnel-like corridor. His wife and a few of her scribes went the other way, two soldiers trailing. Adolin watched for a moment as the highprince himself raised a lantern, inspecting a faded painting on the wall. A fanciful picture, with animals from mythology. He recognized a few from children’s stories, like the enormous, minklike creature with the mane of hair that burst out around and behind its head. What was it called again? Adolin turned to go, but his boot scraped stone.

As you can also see from the quote, Sadeas orders Ialai and the soldiers ahead in two different directions. It wasn't that he just lagged behind and they would go "oh dear, where did Sadeas go off to?". Adolin had enough time for an extended physical struggle, stab Sadeas, get up, cut the cuffs, dispose of the shardblade, remove his mark, walk far away, and get stumbled upon by another scouting party to pretend he was there all along. All during which no cries of alarm were mentioned.

Mraize may have sneaked in and he may have found Shallan but he: 1) knew where to find her and 2) he only meant to speak to her for a few minutes not kill her. In this regards, Mraize's actions are plausible, but for an unknown assassin to have 1) been aware of Sadeas's imminent arrival, 2) know THIS was the right moment to strike, 3) use a strike to the eye ball which by all means has to be unconventional for assassins, especially against a Shardbearer. Adolin may have known about the close quarter thing, but would an assassin know? Training with Shardblade is very specific, it is a lot of assumption to have for one assassin.

Why is it more plausible for Mraize to know Shallan would wander down that specific hallway, and perfectly plant a letter to her on the wall, with their symbol and her name on it, without anyone else stumbling across it, resulting in her coming into the room for an extended conversation, but not for an assassin to track Sadeas's scouting party in an empty unexplored city with many pitfalls and hidden places, and chose when his guards walk away leaving him completely defenseless, to strike? Adolin himself stated how in close combat a shardblade is useless, and the very fact he killed Sadeas without either drawing a blade clearly shows how effective the tactic is.

In order for the assassin plot to work out, you would need to have an assassin attached to any warcamp already at Urithiru to find a way to sneak outside the city in order to purposefully spy on Sadeas to determine the exact moment he'll start to walk towards the city. He would also need to find a way to sneak into Sadeas's retinue, undetected and be reasonably sure the moment Sadeas was starring at the tapestry is the right one to strike. Since Sadeas was in a yet unexplored part of the city, it is logical to assume no assassin would have known of this specific area unless they had been specifically investigating it for the assassination and Blade hiding purposes, but then he would have no way of knowing Sadeas would walk into this specific area.

No you would't. First again as shown by Mraize, he was able to easily join the armies in arriving at Urithiru. Shallan says so herself. Second you have a mass exodus full of soldiers, and camp followers all flowing to this new huge and unexplored place. Keeping track of everyone is going to be impossible. It is so impossible, the king himself was able to lose himself among herdazians and remain unnoticed. Is it really far fetched to be among the general camp followers in Sadeas's army, keep an eye on him from a distance, and see him gather his wife, and soldiers to scout and follow them covertly? With all those passages, doorways, and halls to hide as you follow?

I am sorry but for my part, there are too many elements which do not work out for it to be an assassin and I certainly think our characters are going to come to the same conclusions. Even if an assassin could have sneaked into Sadeas's group, know he was coming, he still wouldn't have been able to know this exact time and place is the right moment to strike, nor would he have been able to plan any escape route. The method of killing also is peculiar for an assassin which is why I think Ialai is more likely to think the culprit is someone Sadeas was not afraid of, someone who managed to get very close. Maybe she won't think of Adolin, at first, she may think it was one of Sadeas's own soldier or general, but when each one of them ends up being accounted for, she will have to look elsewhere.

He wouldn't need to know what the exactly moment was coming. There is a myriad of ways anyone could die when exploring ancient ruins. This was an ample opportunity for an assassin. He or she would only need to bide their time till the right moment showed itself to pounce. As to unafraid, a simple disguise of a foot soldier or messanger of Sadeas's coming up to "report in" would advert suspicion long enough to get close and attack.

My point was if Adolin left the knife behind, if it is found, then it may incriminate him directly unless he lies and pretends it was stolen from him... If they do not find the knife, then it gets very hard to figure out which knife was used exactly: it could have been anyone's, but then again Ialai may also remember how Dalinar had once favored his knife to kill people. We haven't been given this flashback for no reasons... Sure there was Shshshshsh and her brother, but there also was Dalinar's knife and the killing.

I agree it is a stretch, but it could be played out. We could also mentioned the rip off uniform and ask ourselves if the Kholin has had time to have all of their things being transferred to the new city. In other words, how many changes of uniform does Adolin currently have with him and how is he to dispose of it or even to explain why the cuffs are missing? Someone will notice, it is impossible nobody will notice.

You may be misunderstanding what I wrote, or I could be misunderstanding your response. What I was saying was, if hypothetically Adolin had left the knife in Sadeas's brain cavity, then either it would be identifiable by markings as you mentioned, or someone would notice there is a knife in Sadeas's head, but not in Adolin's sheathe. Unless Adolin had some way to deflect attention from why he no longer had his own knife at the same time when a knife was suddenly discovered to be a murder weapon, then he would be called into question. It is a loose link, but still possible.

I agree with Argel, Jasnah is a stretch. There is also the fact nobody would think to incriminate Alethkar's princess without hard evidence which they aren't going to find. We saw with Sadeas betrayal, unless evidence is found, words are meaningless. Jasnah is pretty safe, Adolin isn't because evidence will end up leading to him and he'll talk, he won't deny it.

To be clear, although I do think it is possible for an assassin to carry out the kill, that is not me saying it was Jasnah that did it. I also think due to the fact she is considered dead, and is off god knows where precludes her from being considered the architect of his death. But as I showed above, that doesn't prevent an assassin from being considered as the cause of Sadeas's death.

Because of the nature of the post I will have to reply inline, so have colored my responses blue

DSC01 · August 10, 2016

58 minutes ago, Argel said:

Sorry, but Jasnah is a stretch, even more so if she shows up with Hoid/Wit who could vouch for her. There will be too many things she has to catch up on. Why would she even be a suspect when she has been unaware of the events on the Shattered Plains. Shallan can testify to how old Jasnah's notes were. Yeah, someone that hates Jasnah and wants to to blame here solely on that might latch onto the idea, but I do not see it gaining credibility. If nothing else, shrewd politicians are going to want to see how things with the KRs play out. There's a powershift going on, even more so with Sadeas's removal. I"m not even sure how much trouble he could have really caused -- he may have been overplaying his hand when Adolin snapped.

Right now, I'm not talking about the official investigation of the murder, how Dalinar will feel about it, or any of that. I'm thinking about Sadeas's allies in general and Ialai in particular. I am definitely not saying that Jasnah will be formally charged with the murder and taken to trial, which would certainly be a stretch.

I don't think Ialai will have any intention of bringing her husband's killer to justice; she's going to seek revenge. I don't think anything mentioned would affect Ialai's opinion in the slightest. Why would she know anything about what Shallan knows? Why would she believe her if she was told? Why would Ialai believe anything Wit says about where Jasnah was?

Now, I am making assumptions about what characters will think about Sadeas's death and what will happen afterwards. My impression is that Adolin's crime of passion is generally seen as unthinkable in Alethi Lighteye circles, so I assume that--unless there is physical evidence pointing to Adolin--most people are going to assume that an assassin did it. Or maybe a Darkeyes, in which case, Kaladin would be the prime suspect (and I know that he couldn't have done it, but whether or not everyone else would be just as sure is a whole other discussion).

If the general assumption is that an assassin was responsible, then Jasnah is the only major player among the Kholins that seems likely. Ialai, being a scheming, deceitful person, is probably going to assume that others are also deceitful, with honesty being a trait that belongs to the stupid and naive. Therefore, I believe that when Jasnah turns up alive, she will assume that it was all a ruse--that Jasnah faked her own death to further some clandestine scheme. Anyone who has a secret network of informants, assassins, or any other kind of behind-the-scenes operators can be expected to be meddling in distant affairs that touch upon their interests because with spanreeds, they can. I would absolutely expect someone to come to the conclusion that Jasnah has been meddling all along, and her supposed death was part of some plot. Coming in on the heels of Sadeas's murder, her return would seem a little fishy.

CaptainRyan · August 10, 2016

14 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Right now, I'm not talking about the official investigation of the murder, how Dalinar will feel about it, or any of that. I'm thinking about Sadeas's allies in general and Ialai in particular. I am definitely not saying that Jasnah will be formally charged with the murder and taken to trial, which would certainly be a stretch.

I don't think Ialai will have any intention of bringing her husband's killer to justice; she's going to seek revenge. I don't think anything mentioned would affect Ialai's opinion in the slightest. Why would she know anything about what Shallan knows? Why would she believe her if she was told? Why would Ialai believe anything Wit says about where Jasnah was?

Now, I am making assumptions about what characters will think about Sadeas's death and what will happen afterwards. My impression is that Adolin's crime of passion is generally seen as unthinkable in Alethi Lighteye circles, so I assume that--unless there is physical evidence pointing to Adolin--most people are going to assume that an assassin did it. Or maybe a Darkeyes, in which case, Kaladin would be the prime suspect (and I know that he couldn't have done it, but whether or not everyone else would be just as sure is a whole other discussion).

If the general assumption is that an assassin was responsible, then Jasnah is the only major player among the Kholins that seems likely. Ialai, being a scheming, deceitful person, is probably going to assume that others are also deceitful, with honesty being a trait that belongs to the stupid and naive. Therefore, I believe that when Jasnah turns up alive, she will assume that it was all a ruse--that Jasnah faked her own death to further some clandestine scheme. Anyone who has a secret network of informants, assassins, or any other kind of behind-the-scenes operators can be expected to be meddling in distant affairs that touch upon their interests because with spanreeds, they can. I would absolutely expect someone to come to the conclusion that Jasnah has been meddling all along, and her supposed death was part of some plot. Coming in on the heels of Sadeas's murder, her return would seem a little fishy.

I think this is well thought out. It presupposes a few things but, hey, we are speculating aren't we?

Argel · August 10, 2016

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

If the general assumption is that an assassin was responsible, then Jasnah is the only major player among the Kholins that seems likely

It doesn't have to be the Kholins. All the assassinations of late have been by others -- Szeth in particular. But surely there are hints of the conspiracies. There's also a mass influx into U, which makes for an opportune time for any assassin to strike.

Jasnah still makes no sense to me, starting with no motive. Not to mention that only an idiot would go after her without some solid proof. She has the whole "attitude exudes royalty and power down", everyone knows how smart she is, and how little tolerance she has for BS. Jasnah will walk all over anyone without solid proof and everyone knows it. Sorry, but Jasnah is a non-starter. Yeah, maybe rumors, etc. but without solid proof she is virtually untouchable, and given the power-shifts going on at the moment, why would anyone put themselves at odds with with the Kholins or the newly forming Knight Radiants!?

DSC01 · August 10, 2016

Ialai is almost definitely sending assassins after whoever she believes killed Sadeas. I don't think for a second that Jasnah can be touched legally, but I also don't believe that Ialai's response to her husband's death is going to be primarily focused on pursuing legal avenues.

CaptainRyan · August 10, 2016

17 minutes ago, Argel said:

Sorry, but Jasnah is a non-starter.

Simply playing Odium's Advocate here but there are few bits of information that could paint Jasnah as the culprit:

1| If Ialai knows, and somehow has proof, that Jasnah hired an assassin; we were shown Jasnah doing that for some reason, eh? Why not for this?

2| Sadeas died from a knife to the eye; Jasnah's hired assassin has the quirk of gouging out people's eyes. People might suspect that Sadeas was assassinated by this specific person but that she was interrupted while killing Sadeas.

3| The suspicion that will surround Jasnah having "miraculously" returned from the dead might cast doubt on her; especially if her timing brings her to Uruthiru right after Sadeas is found dead.

4| She is a heretic and, therefore, suspicion can more easily fall on her.

5| Ialai might see it as another way of undermining Elhokar's rule (if she still wants to); if the King's sister can assassinate a Highprince then who is safe?!

So, while I do not personally find the idea compelling that Jasnah might be blamed for Sadeas' death I do see it is a (faint) possibility. The threads are there if Sanderson wants to weave them.

August 11, 2016

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Because of the nature of the post I will have to reply inline, so have colored my responses blue

Unfortunately, the new platform doesn't allow me to quote you when it happens. Beats me why, so I'll have to copy-paste your responses as follows.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Adolin is not surprised to find Sadeas is in the building. He is surprised he recognized the voice, and he is upset Sadeas came, but again, not surprised he is there. Here is the pertinent quote/scene:

Were those voices ahead? Adolin frownded, then continued down the corridor. Leaving his lantern behind so it wouldn’t give him away. He was surprised when he recognized one of the speakers down the hallway. Was that Sadeas? It was. The highprince stood with a scouting party of his own. Silently, Adolin cursed the wind that had persuaded Sadeas – of all people – to heed the call to come to Urithiru. Everything would have been so much easier if he’d just stayed behind. Sadeas gestured for a few of his soldiers to go down one branch of the tunnel-like corridor. His wife and a few of her scribes went the other way, two soldiers trailing. Adolin watched for a moment as the highprince himself raised a lantern, inspecting a faded painting on the wall. A fanciful picture, with animals from mythology. He recognized a few from children’s stories, like the enormous, minklike creature with the mane of hair that burst out around and behind its head. What was it called again? Adolin turned to go, but his boot scraped stone.

As you can also see from the quote, Sadeas orders Ialai and the soldiers ahead in two different directions. It wasn't that he just lagged behind and they would go "oh dear, where did Sadeas go off to?". Adolin had enough time for an extended physical struggle, stab Sadeas, get up, cut the cuffs, dispose of the shardblade, remove his mark, walk far away, and get stumbled upon by another scouting party to pretend he was there all along. All during which no cries of alarm were mentioned.

It may be I have a different interpretation of the extract you have just posted: Adolin clearly states he was surprised to realize the voice he was hearing was Sadeas. He then curses himself Sadeas, of all people, would actually, for once, follow Dalinar's lead and actually come. To me, he sounds surprised Sadeas came at all. When Adolin says he curses the wind which convinced Sadeas to actually listen, he admits he never thought it would happen. Hence, this extract works in favor of the point I tried to make: Adolin is surprised to find Sadeas here at all and if Adolin is surprised, it is safe to assume the Kholins never expected him to come. Yes he was invited, but he never took heed to their words, why start now? I thus interpret this extract as Adolin being surprised to see Sadeas here.

And yes Adolin had enough time to do his deed, but an assassin standing right here and deciding to kill Sadeas would not have known in advance the path was clear. It is not obvious nobody was coming back towards Sadeas nor was it obvious nobody was close enough to listen. It happened it was, but I doubt this is something a skilled assassin would gamble on.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Why is it more plausible for Mraize to know Shallan would wander down that specific hallway, and perfectly plant a letter to her on the wall, with their symbol and her name on it, without anyone else stumbling across it, resulting in her coming into the room for an extended conversation, but not for an assassin to track Sadeas's scouting party in an empty unexplored city with many pitfalls and hidden places, and chose when his guards walk away leaving him completely defenseless, to strike? Adolin himself stated how in close combat a shardblade is useless, and the very fact he killed Sadeas without either drawing a blade clearly shows how effective the tactic is.

Because Mraize most likely had agents following Shallan since the very first day she step into his lair. She may think she has deceived him, but I personally do not think it so. Her bluff was caught early on, but they allowed to keep her going because they thought she may end up being useful. Of course, this isn't confirmed by any textual evidence, but when Mraize jumps on her, admits to know her real identity and tells her he knows about the whereabouts of her brothers, it tells me he has known for quite some time. If he did, then it makes sense for him to have his own spies onto Shallan. Therefore, he didn't magically found her, he was tracking her and he merely waited for a good moment to plant his note. If you ask me, I suspect she was followed from Day 1 and hereby lay the difference in between Shallan and Sadeas. Mraize knew where to find Shallan, he had been spying on her the whole time thus making it easy to trap her. I would also emphasis Mraize only needed Shallan alone for a few moments: he did not need to hide a murder and to go into hiding in order to hide a Shardblade. The scopes just aren't the same which is why the fact Mraize manages it isn't a conclusive argument to stipulate a random assassin not knowing where Sadeas would be, not knowing his environment would decide to strike here and now.

Adolin knows drawing his Blade in close quarters is useless. Sadeas knows it to, but would an assassin know? Only a handful of people are being trained with Shardblades, so why is it a random assassin would be aware of this? And would it seriously be a risk any assassin would be willing to take? It seems to me a good and skilled assassin would chose the least risky path which would be to remove Sadeas the chance to retaliate which is exactly how the murder did not go down. So again, it leads towards it not being an assassin.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No you would't. First again as shown by Mraize, he was able to easily join the armies in arriving at Urithiru. Shallan says so herself. Second you have a mass exodus full of soldiers, and camp followers all flowing to this new huge and unexplored place. Keeping track of everyone is going to be impossible. It is so impossible, the king himself was able to lose himself among herdazians and remain unnoticed. Is it really far fetched to be among the general camp followers in Sadeas's army, keep an eye on him from a distance, and see him gather his wife, and soldiers to scout and follow them covertly? With all those passages, doorways, and halls to hide as you follow?

It isn't impossible, what I find impossible is the idea any skilled worthy assassin would think killing Sadeas during this one specific moment actually was a good idea. If an assassin was waiting for an opportunity to kill Sadeas, then killing him after everyone left the Shattered Plains and he was out there alone seems a better choice. Killing him while he was arriving into an unknown city during a lapse of time nobody had the means to know would be long enough seems too far-fetched. Ialai has assassins, she would know how they operate and she would realize this can't be the work of one.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

He wouldn't need to know what the exactly moment was coming. There is a myriad of ways anyone could die when exploring ancient ruins. This was an ample opportunity for an assassin. He or she would only need to bide their time till the right moment showed itself to pounce. As to unafraid, a simple disguise of a foot soldier or messanger of Sadeas's coming up to "report in" would advert suspicion long enough to get close and attack.

The problem is the assassin didn't bide his time: he strike head first onto the first time he sees Sadeas alone. An assassin would wait for a better opportunity, one where he is better able to plan in advance. Have you seen GoT? This is how you assassinate someone: you don't just jump on them because oh surprise they happened to be alone right here and there. You plan it, you observe your prey, you find the best moment to strike and you choose your weapon, one which you are certain will carry on the death sentence. Jumping on Sadeas with a knife is about the worst idea anyone could have as the rate of success isn't quite high. Sure Adolin managed it, but he was lucky. I don't think an assassin would chance on that.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

You may be misunderstanding what I wrote, or I could be misunderstanding your response. What I was saying was, if hypothetically Adolin had left the knife in Sadeas's brain cavity, then either it would be identifiable by markings as you mentioned, or someone would notice there is a knife in Sadeas's head, but not in Adolin's sheathe. Unless Adolin had some way to deflect attention from why he no longer had his own knife at the same time when a knife was suddenly discovered to be a murder weapon, then he would be called into question. It is a loose link, but still possible.

I was saying, in the advent Adolin left his knife behind, then it may be possible for it to be distinctive enough to be traced back to him. I doubt anyone would notice Adolin's knife is missing as he could merely just use another one and no one would be the wisest, but if the found knife has a distinctive carving on it... then it may lead back to him. This was my argument. Tenuous, yes and unlikely to happen, true, but it seems as a loose end to be tied up.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

To be clear, although I do think it is possible for an assassin to carry out the kill, that is not me saying it was Jasnah that did it. I also think due to the fact she is considered dead, and is off god knows where precludes her from being considered the architect of his death. But as I showed above, that doesn't prevent an assassin from being considered as the cause of Sadeas's death.

Strictly speaking, it isn't impossible an assassin could not have been able to carry it on, I do agree with this. What I dispute is the idea Ialai, or anyone else, would, after investigating the murder scene, come to the conclusion it irrevocably was an assassin and then linked it to Jasnah. There are too many "if" and there are too many "irregularities" within the murder for a skilled assassin patron to actually think it may be the work of one. While I do think it possible they will consider an assassin, at first, I also think they will rule it out after thinking about it for a while longer. Even if I am wrong and they still think it was an assassin, then I think it unlikely they would tie to Jasnah who has gone dead for months.

So again, it isn't I think it completely unlikely for Ialai to consider an assassin, it may very well be she will, but I also think too many things do not add up for her to act on it. I do think she is too smart to keep on hanging to this idea and, more importantly, to try to pin it on Jasnah. I do think, once she calms down and thinks about it for a prolonged period of time, she will start to consider other options.

4 hours ago, DSC01 said:

...

If Ialai's goal is to use the murder as a reason to extract vengeance, then Jasnah is not a worthy target. Why? Because Jasnah is barely present within Dalinar's entourage, she has gone dead for months and it didn't impact Dalinar in any measurable way. If her goal is thus to harm the Kholins, Jasnah or Kaladin aren't the right targets, Adolin is. Sadeas had rightly identified Adolin as the weakest link, the one to strike in order to harm Dalinar the worst.

Therefore if vengeance is all which matters to Ialai, and not the truth, then again Adolin is a better target.

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

So, while I do not personally find the idea compelling that Jasnah might be blamed for Sadeas' death I do see it is a (faint) possibility. The threads are there if Sanderson wants to weave them.

I personally think the threads are too tenuous to form a plausible serious story arc.

ScarletSabre · August 11, 2016

My personal pet theory is that Renarin will see the truth in Adolin's claim to not have had anything to do with killing Sadeas, either through theTruthwatcher's ability to see things (perhaps visions of the truth when lies are spoken?) or detecting falsehoods.

This will drive a wedge between the two brothers, as Renarin will be torn between his love for Adolin and want to support and protect him, and his own desire to be strong and useful, and the intent of his order and ideals and oaths.

Renarin might end up being the one to reveal what Adolin did, thus making Adolin bitter and resentful for just doing what should have been done months, if not years ago, and end up leaving the Princedom in shame.

DSC01 · August 11, 2016

11 hours ago, maxal said:

Unfortunately, the new platform doesn't allow me to quote you when it happens. Beats me why, so I'll have to copy-paste your responses as follows.

It may be I have a different interpretation of the extract you have just posted: Adolin clearly states he was surprised to realize the voice he was hearing was Sadeas. He then curses himself Sadeas, of all people, would actually, for once, follow Dalinar's lead and actually come. To me, he sounds surprised Sadeas came at all. When Adolin says he curses the wind which convinced Sadeas to actually listen, he admits he never thought it would happen. Hence, this extract works in favor of the point I tried to make: Adolin is surprised to find Sadeas here at all and if Adolin is surprised, it is safe to assume the Kholins never expected him to come. Yes he was invited, but he never took heed to their words, why start now? I thus interpret this extract as Adolin being surprised to see Sadeas here.

And yes Adolin had enough time to do his deed, but an assassin standing right here and deciding to kill Sadeas would not have known in advance the path was clear. It is not obvious nobody was coming back towards Sadeas nor was it obvious nobody was close enough to listen. It happened it was, but I doubt this is something a skilled assassin would gamble on.

Because Mraize most likely had agents following Shallan since the very first day she step into his lair. She may think she has deceived him, but I personally do not think it so. Her bluff was caught early on, but they allowed to keep her going because they thought she may end up being useful. Of course, this isn't confirmed by any textual evidence, but when Mraize jumps on her, admits to know her real identity and tells her he knows about the whereabouts of her brothers, it tells me he has known for quite some time. If he did, then it makes sense for him to have his own spies onto Shallan. Therefore, he didn't magically found her, he was tracking her and he merely waited for a good moment to plant his note. If you ask me, I suspect she was followed from Day 1 and hereby lay the difference in between Shallan and Sadeas. Mraize knew where to find Shallan, he had been spying on her the whole time thus making it easy to trap her. I would also emphasis Mraize only needed Shallan alone for a few moments: he did not need to hide a murder and to go into hiding in order to hide a Shardblade. The scopes just aren't the same which is why the fact Mraize manages it isn't a conclusive argument to stipulate a random assassin not knowing where Sadeas would be, not knowing his environment would decide to strike here and now.

Adolin knows drawing his Blade in close quarters is useless. Sadeas knows it to, but would an assassin know? Only a handful of people are being trained with Shardblades, so why is it a random assassin would be aware of this? And would it seriously be a risk any assassin would be willing to take? It seems to me a good and skilled assassin would chose the least risky path which would be to remove Sadeas the chance to retaliate which is exactly how the murder did not go down. So again, it leads towards it not being an assassin.

It isn't impossible, what I find impossible is the idea any skilled worthy assassin would think killing Sadeas during this one specific moment actually was a good idea. If an assassin was waiting for an opportunity to kill Sadeas, then killing him after everyone left the Shattered Plains and he was out there alone seems a better choice. Killing him while he was arriving into an unknown city during a lapse of time nobody had the means to know would be long enough seems too far-fetched. Ialai has assassins, she would know how they operate and she would realize this can't be the work of one.

The problem is the assassin didn't bide his time: he strike head first onto the first time he sees Sadeas alone. An assassin would wait for a better opportunity, one where he is better able to plan in advance. Have you seen GoT? This is how you assassinate someone: you don't just jump on them because oh surprise they happened to be alone right here and there. You plan it, you observe your prey, you find the best moment to strike and you choose your weapon, one which you are certain will carry on the death sentence. Jumping on Sadeas with a knife is about the worst idea anyone could have as the rate of success isn't quite high. Sure Adolin managed it, but he was lucky. I don't think an assassin would chance on that.

I was saying, in the advent Adolin left his knife behind, then it may be possible for it to be distinctive enough to be traced back to him. I doubt anyone would notice Adolin's knife is missing as he could merely just use another one and no one would be the wisest, but if the found knife has a distinctive carving on it... then it may lead back to him. This was my argument. Tenuous, yes and unlikely to happen, true, but it seems as a loose end to be tied up.

Strictly speaking, it isn't impossible an assassin could not have been able to carry it on, I do agree with this. What I dispute is the idea Ialai, or anyone else, would, after investigating the murder scene, come to the conclusion it irrevocably was an assassin and then linked it to Jasnah. There are too many "if" and there are too many "irregularities" within the murder for a skilled assassin patron to actually think it may be the work of one. While I do think it possible they will consider an assassin, at first, I also think they will rule it out after thinking about it for a while longer. Even if I am wrong and they still think it was an assassin, then I think it unlikely they would tie to Jasnah who has gone dead for months.

So again, it isn't I think it completely unlikely for Ialai to consider an assassin, it may very well be she will, but I also think too many things do not add up for her to act on it. I do think she is too smart to keep on hanging to this idea and, more importantly, to try to pin it on Jasnah. I do think, once she calms down and thinks about it for a prolonged period of time, she will start to consider other options.

If Ialai's goal is to use the murder as a reason to extract vengeance, then Jasnah is not a worthy target. Why? Because Jasnah is barely present within Dalinar's entourage, she has gone dead for months and it didn't impact Dalinar in any measurable way. If her goal is thus to harm the Kholins, Jasnah or Kaladin aren't the right targets, Adolin is. Sadeas had rightly identified Adolin as the weakest link, the one to strike in order to harm Dalinar the worst.

Therefore if vengeance is all which matters to Ialai, and not the truth, then again Adolin is a better target.

I personally think the threads are too tenuous to form a plausible serious story arc.

I was going to just quote the parts I want to respond to, but I don't know what I'll end up wanting to say as I type along, so...

Would an assassin know that Shardblades are not good for fighting in close quarters? Yes. Regardless of how much they might or might not know about Shardblades, I assume that many assassins know things about weapons and fighting in general. There are lots of weapons that are bad for close-quarters fighting because of their size. They wouldn't have had to have ever heard of a Shardblade in order to know that if they need to fight someone with a large weapon, attacking them in close quarters is the way to go.

Also, I feel like a lot of people, not just you, are forgetting about the existence of spanreeds, or at least not taking their implications into account. Why would an assassin choose right then to attack Sadeas? Because they just got the order to take him down. Remember, based on Jasnah's meeting with the Weeper, we know that someone might hire an assassin to stay close to someone and watch them, then later send instructions to kill them. Sadeas arriving in Urithiru could have been what triggered that order. It could have been something like, "Take Sadeas out immediately, before he is able to establish any influence in Urithiru." We know that is not the case, but others do not, and there is plenty of reason to suspect that if an assassin were to be ordered to kill Sadeas immediately, they would choose dark, labyrinthine corridors in a mostly uncharted city. I think that you and I are envisioning the corridors in Urithiru differently because, whereas you are thinking them a poor place for an assassination, I see them as ideal.

We do know a little about how assassins might operate, based on what we've seen of the attempt to assassinate Jasnah. We don't know exactly who ordered the killing yet (except that it was a Ghostblood), but we do know that they probably weren't anywhere near Jasnah at the time. All of the orders were communicated via spanreed. Maybe the person giving the orders never even met Jasnah, and all of their information on her activities came via long-distance communication. I think that anyone well-versed in clandestine scheming on Roshar would never say, "Oh, that person hasn't even been around in months. There's no way they have anything to do with this!"

Now, we know that after Gavilar's death, Jasnah mostly gave up on her scheming and devoted herself to researching Voidbringers and such. However public that might be, a dedicated schemer would probably think that is just a smokescreen. Someone like Ialai probably thinks that Jasnah's traveling is actually her trying to influence foreign governments and assumes that she is getting periodic--perhaps even daily--reports from multiple agents across Alethkar, on the Shattered Plains, etc. As soon as Jasnah shows up, very much not dead, a lot of people are going to say, "Her supposed death was all a trick!" And then they'll start trying to figure out what that trick was, what secret maneuvering it was supposed to obscure.

Jondesu · August 11, 2016

There's so much here that I may have missed it being mentioned, but my thoughts on Adolin ditching the Shardblade (Oathbringer) out the window are two-fold:

I think he wanted to protect his father's blade, probably only barely conscious of that part
I think he wanted people to assume that the killer/assassin was after the Shardblade, and since he already has one, he wouldn't be a likely suspect right away

jW

Pathfinder · August 11, 2016

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Unfortunately, the new platform doesn't allow me to quote you when it happens. Beats me why, so I'll have to copy-paste your responses as follows.

It may be I have a different interpretation of the extract you have just posted: Adolin clearly states he was surprised to realize the voice he was hearing was Sadeas. He then curses himself Sadeas, of all people, would actually, for once, follow Dalinar's lead and actually come. To me, he sounds surprised Sadeas came at all. When Adolin says he curses the wind which convinced Sadeas to actually listen, he admits he never thought it would happen. Hence, this extract works in favor of the point I tried to make: Adolin is surprised to find Sadeas here at all and if Adolin is surprised, it is safe to assume the Kholins never expected him to come. Yes he was invited, but he never took heed to their words, why start now? I thus interpret this extract as Adolin being surprised to see Sadeas here.

You misunderstand my point. Dalinar days earlier invited the highprinces to come to Urithiru. Sadeas accepted said invitation. So Adolin and everyone else going to Urithiru has known Sadeas is going to the city for awhile. Plenty of time for lets say, hypothetically, for another highprince to order one of his assassins on staff, to infiltrate Sadeas's gathering camp as they make the travel to Urithiru, and then settle into the city. Adolin can be as surprised as he wants to be that Sadeas decided to come, but that doesn't change the amount of time it took from Sadeas's acceptance to arriving at the city. Plenty of time to arrange a hit.

And yes Adolin had enough time to do his deed, but an assassin standing right here and deciding to kill Sadeas would not have known in advance the path was clear. It is not obvious nobody was coming back towards Sadeas nor was it obvious nobody was close enough to listen. It happened it was, but I doubt this is something a skilled assassin would gamble on.

They are exploring abandoned ruins. They are in a remote location. This couldn't be a more prime spot to do it. At this point we are just repeating ourselves, so I won't berate this point. Just agree to disagree. (for your reference I will be happy to quote your earlier posts and mine citing how this is rehashing the same information)

Because Mraize most likely had agents following Shallan since the very first day she step into his lair. She may think she has deceived him, but I personally do not think it so. Her bluff was caught early on, but they allowed to keep her going because they thought she may end up being useful. Of course, this isn't confirmed by any textual evidence, but when Mraize jumps on her, admits to know her real identity and tells her he knows about the whereabouts of her brothers, it tells me he has known for quite some time. If he did, then it makes sense for him to have his own spies onto Shallan. Therefore, he didn't magically found her, he was tracking her and he merely waited for a good moment to plant his note. If you ask me, I suspect she was followed from Day 1 and hereby lay the difference in between Shallan and Sadeas. Mraize knew where to find Shallan, he had been spying on her the whole time thus making it easy to trap her. I would also emphasis Mraize only needed Shallan alone for a few moments: he did not need to hide a murder and to go into hiding in order to hide a Shardblade. The scopes just aren't the same which is why the fact Mraize manages it isn't a conclusive argument to stipulate a random assassin not knowing where Sadeas would be, not knowing his environment would decide to strike here and now.

As I said in the previous post, so I will be repeating this, Shallan herself stated Mraize infiltrated the armies coming into the city. How she tried to keep Urithiru away from the Ghostsbloods, but inadvertently handed it to them on a platter. I will be happy to provide the quote if necessary.

Adolin knows drawing his Blade in close quarters is useless. Sadeas knows it to, but would an assassin know? Only a handful of people are being trained with Shardblades, so why is it a random assassin would be aware of this? And would it seriously be a risk any assassin would be willing to take? It seems to me a good and skilled assassin would chose the least risky path which would be to remove Sadeas the chance to retaliate which is exactly how the murder did not go down. So again, it leads towards it not being an assassin.

I have absolutely no training in swordplay whatsoever, but when I see someone wielding a 6 foot long sword, even I know its useless in a chest to chest fight. I also have absolutely no skill with ak-47s, but again I know if i am up close and in the persons face, firing the gun to kill me is next to useless. And this is not counting the skills an assassin would have to have to be successful at all. What kind of assassins do you think exist in this world that they are in your mind so inept?

It isn't impossible, what I find impossible is the idea any skilled worthy assassin would think killing Sadeas during this one specific moment actually was a good idea. If an assassin was waiting for an opportunity to kill Sadeas, then killing him after everyone left the Shattered Plains and he was out there alone seems a better choice. Killing him while he was arriving into an unknown city during a lapse of time nobody had the means to know would be long enough seems too far-fetched. Ialai has assassins, she would know how they operate and she would realize this can't be the work of one.

So again, I cite an example of an individual that accomplished exactly what you stated is impossible, but it is more probable that Ialai knows exactly how every assassin works, so has prepared for every eventuality so she knows in that exact situation, that her husband would be perfectly safe because since she knows assassins so well, she knows they would never even attempt such a strike?

The problem is the assassin didn't bide his time: he strike head first onto the first time he sees Sadeas alone. An assassin would wait for a better opportunity, one where he is better able to plan in advance. Have you seen GoT? This is how you assassinate someone: you don't just jump on them because oh surprise they happened to be alone right here and there. You plan it, you observe your prey, you find the best moment to strike and you choose your weapon, one which you are certain will carry on the death sentence. Jumping on Sadeas with a knife is about the worst idea anyone could have as the rate of success isn't quite high. Sure Adolin managed it, but he was lucky. I don't think an assassin would chance on that.

That is incorrect. The scene played out where Sadeas noticed Adolin. They had an extended conversation. Long enough for Adolin and Sadeas to be close enough for Adolin to strike. There wasn't "hi adolin, how are...oh god your attacking me!". it was "hi adolin. how are you? you are good? that is great? this place is awesome. your father sucks. don't worry i will find a way to make everyone believe that too. you don't like it? tough, i am going to do it anyway. oh god now you are attacking me!". If you would like a refresher on how the scene plays out for accuracy, I will be happy to post the quote. oh and regarding Game of Thrones, please see Jaoquin in the Lannister keep, killing the ones Arya names.

I was saying, in the advent Adolin left his knife behind, then it may be possible for it to be distinctive enough to be traced back to him. I doubt anyone would notice Adolin's knife is missing as he could merely just use another one and no one would be the wisest, but if the found knife has a distinctive carving on it... then it may lead back to him. This was my argument. Tenuous, yes and unlikely to happen, true, but it seems as a loose end to be tied up.

.......maxal. I was agreeing with you. I said the symbol was likely. Then I expanded on that by saying even if there wasn't a symbol, there is a chance of identifying Adolin as his knife would have gone missing at the same time the murder weapon was discovered to be a knife. I don't understand why we are still discussing this. There is nothing you need to defend. I never said your argument was faulty or anything wrong with it.

Strictly speaking, it isn't impossible an assassin could not have been able to carry it on, I do agree with this. What I dispute is the idea Ialai, or anyone else, would, after investigating the murder scene, come to the conclusion it irrevocably was an assassin and then linked it to Jasnah. There are too many "if" and there are too many "irregularities" within the murder for a skilled assassin patron to actually think it may be the work of one. While I do think it possible they will consider an assassin, at first, I also think they will rule it out after thinking about it for a while longer. Even if I am wrong and they still think it was an assassin, then I think it unlikely they would tie to Jasnah who has gone dead for months.

when did I say irrevocably? also please re-read the portion you quoted. I stated I do not believe Jasnah ordered the assassination. I was stating it was feasible and realistic for people who discover the murder scene to consider assassination. That coupled with the level of forensics they have access to, it would be difficult to rule it out. Since I started, I stated it would be possible. I never said Adolin would get off scott free. I never said they would only think it was an assassin. I said an assassin could pull off the murder, and would be considered as a valid possibility. If you are responding to DSC01's comments regarding Jasnah, then quote DSC01 when you are responding to that portion, not me as that was not my argument.

My answers in blue again

Edited August 11, 2016 by Pathfinder

Argel · August 11, 2016

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Because Mraize most likely had agents following Shallan since the very first day she step into his lair.

It's pretty clear the Ghostbloods were not keeping close tabs on her. If they were, they would have figured out she was Veil a long time ago. Don't forget if they were keeping close tabs on Shallan then that would include when she gets back to Sebarial's place. The Ghostbloods do not seem like a huge organization, so I doubt they have enough resources to watch everyone they want to -- they likely have to pick and choose. Or contract out, like with Tyn, but they will want to be careful with that -- e.g. to not revel too much about what they are interested in.

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Strictly speaking, it isn't impossible an assassin could not have been able to carry it on, I do agree with this. What I dispute is the idea Ialai, or anyone else, would, after investigating the murder scene, come to the conclusion it irrevocably was an assassin and then linked it to Jasnah.

I could could not concur more. I do not understand why the Jasnah angle keeps coming up. Beyond someone wanting to blame Jasnah for the sake of blaming her, it makes no sense. And there are plenty of Kholins there right now to blame. Jasnah is a huge stretch beyond purely irrational beliefs. Let's not also forget that Jasnah showing up means she's survived yet another assassination attempt, and presumably it will be revealed she's a KR. If you send assassins after her, the expectation is she will survive the attempt.

Additionally, there will be all the time between when the body is found and Jasnah shows up to form other theories, liekly more credible ones. If there's even a hint that it could be Adolin or just one of the Kholins there, I do not think someone is going to shift to it being Jasnah when they have better theories.

There's also the obvious -- it's too sloppy to be Jasnah.

Well, the the other obvious one too -- Brandon writes better than that.

Pathfinder · August 11, 2016

4 minutes ago, Argel said:

It's pretty clear the Ghostbloods were not keeping close tabs on her. If they were, they would have figured out she was Veil a long time ago. Don't forget if they were keeping close tabs on Shallan then that would include when she gets back to Sebarial's place. The Ghostbloods do not seem like a huge organization, so I doubt they have enough resources to watch everyone they want to -- they likely have to pick and choose. Or contract out, like with Tyn, but they will want to be careful with that -- e.g. to not revel too much about what they are interested in.

I could could not concur more. I do not understand why the Jasnah angle keeps coming up. Beyond someone wanting to blame Jasnah for the sake of blaming her, it makes no sense. And there are plenty of Kholins there right now to blame. Jasnah is a huge stretch beyond purely irrational beliefs. Let's not also forget that Jasnah showing up means she's survived yet another assassination attempt, and presumably it will be revealed she's a KR. If you send assassins after her, the expectation is she will survive the attempt.

Additionally, there will be all the time between when the body is found and Jasnah shows up to form other theories, liekly more credible ones. If there's even a hint that it could be Adolin or just one of the Kholins there, I do not think someone is going to shift to it being Jasnah when they have better theories.

There's also the obvious -- it's too sloppy to be Jasnah.

Well, the the other obvious one too -- Brandon writes better than that.

Lol you accidentally quoted me there. That was Maxal speaking. Anything I wrote was in blue. In fact I stated how she was aiming that point in the wrong direction as I never said I thought Jasnah hired an assassin. All I said was an assassin could be considered the culprit.

Adolin's Fate?

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