Adolin's Fate?

[Argel he/him]

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

The scene is done that way to magnify the sense of shock

I'm sure it is. That doesn't change that it's a gimmick. It's like learning how a magic trick is done -- it's much harder to enjoy the trick afterwards. I would have been impressed with a true POV scene. Instead we have an apparently unreliable nattartor and/or a pseudo-flashback. Granted, doing this scene correctly (i.e. without the gimmick) is hard to do, so maybe this is what Brandon had to settle on, but that doesn't change that he's using a writing gimmick to pull this off. I suspect this scene may have suffered a bit from rushing WoR, and changing it in a revision would probably be too drastic (and probably a lot of additional work).

Regarding incompetent assassins, we haven't really seen any yet. Tyn has been the weakest, but she's more of a jack-of-all-trades than an actual trained assassin, and even she was effective against Jasnah (only being a KR saved Jasnah, and Tyn was not aware of that -- not clear if the Ghostbloods were either). IIRC, all failed assassination attempts we have seen fail due to interference from someone with superhuman abilities.

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Argel said:

I'm sure it is. That doesn't change that it's a gimmick. It's like learning how a magic trick is done -- it's much harder to enjoy the trick afterwards. I would have been impressed with a true POV scene. Instead we have an apparently unreliable nattartor and/or a pseudo-flashback. Granted, doing this scene correctly (i.e. without the gimmick) is hard to do, so maybe this is what Brandon had to settle on, but that doesn't change that he's using a writing gimmick to pull this off. I suspect this scene may have suffered a bit from rushing WoR, and changing it in a revision would probably be too drastic (and probably a lot of additional work).

Regarding incompetent assassins, we haven't really seen any yet. Tyn has been the weakest, but she's more of a jack-of-all-trades than an actual trained assassin, and even she was effective against Jasnah (only being a KR saved Jasnah, and Tyn was not aware of that -- not clear if the Ghostbloods were either). IIRC, all failed assassination attempts we have seen fail due to interference from someone with superhuman abilities.

 

Why do you say it is a gimmick? While I am always up for longer and deeper Adolin's POV chapters, I have always been satisfied with the scene as it was written. I felt the author wrote Adolin as an unreliable narrator because he was unreliable at this point in time. The purpose is to emphasis the fact he isn't himself, he isn't stable: as Spock would put it, he has been emotionally compromised and is therefore not capable of rational judgment. The scene cannot feature Adolin removing himself from Sadeas, being careful not to get blood onto himself while leaving the knife planted... because if Adolin had noticed, he would have picked it up. The same way the scene does not mention the lamps is because we are within his head: he isn't thinking about the lamps. If he forgets to take his or if he inadvertently picks up Sadeas's lamp instead, we can't very well have him have clear thought on his actions, because had he had a clear head, he wouldn't have made the mistake. 

For my part, this isn't a gimmick. Is Adolin unreliable? Yes, of course he is. What happened to the knife and the lamp? We do not know because Adolin didn't think about them. It may be he picked them up without any second thought, but we weren't going to read him make a crucial mistake in cleaning the scene while being fully aware of it. Hence, we have no idea what become of those items just as we have no idea how he plans to have his story of him wandering in another part of the tower plausible considering his trail of marks doesn't fit his claim. We have no idea because Adolin has no idea either: he isn't thinking straight which is why I am convinced he left enough evidence behind for the snare to close on him. It is also why I am almost convinced, when interrogated, Adolin will have a hard time coming with a decent story and even after he admits his guilt, I wouldn't be surprised if he fails to answers all of Dalinar's question properly. I see him looking desperate and saying he just doesn't remember because his thoughts were too muddy, they didn't register well into his memory.

I agree we haven't seen any incompetent assassins which is why I find it doubtful Ialai would think her husband has been killed by one: there was too much to gamble and too many assumptions and little threads to pull off to make it work. Nobody would chance on such an assassination plan to actually work, not when they could devise another more sound plan.

[Argel he/him]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Why do you say it is a gimmick?

Brandon is not conveying Adolin's shock through Adolin, but through an unreliable narrator voice in pseudo POV. Those are by definition writing gimmicks.

Or are you going to claim that this is what Adolin is actually thinking at the time? That's a rhetorical question, because it's clearly a narrator's voice.

Quote

 

This wasn’t the calculated intensity of the dueling grounds, or even the methodical butchery of the battlefield. This was two sweating, straining men, both on the edge of panic. Adolin was younger, but he was still bruised from the fight with the Assassin in White.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 1068). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

5 hours ago, maxal said:

For my part, this isn't a gimmick. Is Adolin unreliable?

It's an unreliable narrator, not Adolin. In fact, if this was actually written from Adolin's POV -- what's really going on in his head, the jumping shadows as the lantern falls, etc. then it would be much better (assuming quality writing).

 

[Oversleep]

@Argel, I feel that Brandon does not do such an in-head POV. He does more like an over-shoulder third-person narrator. So it's not truly from the inside of the character's head nor is it omnipotent narrator.

So I read those passages as actually conveying what Adolin feels and thinks. I have to admit that I feel your use of the term "gimmick" is a little inappropriate, but that's not a vital thing to me

Edited August 15, 2016 by Oversleep

[Guest]

While I do think Argel is raising an interesting point, I do agree with Oversleep: the narrator is not omniscient. It appears simply to tell us what Adolin is doing based on how Adolin is thinking at this point in time. SA is not a first person's POV, it is a third person's POV, but it does not have an omniscient narrator. Therefore, the fact the author did not narrate every single actions Adolin took in a meticulous way is not a gimmick nor the product of rushed writings, but merely the fact Adolin is just not being meticulous. 

The actions appear incomplete and lack details because Adolin is not thinking about the details. I understand it can be annoying to read a scene we believe lack details, but each time I read this one, it feels as if the actions are slogged, almost as if we were looking at Adolin doing his stuff through very thick and dirty glasses. We see the big lines, but not the rest which I do think was intentional. It wasn't sloppy: Adolin's mind is foggy, hence the scene lacks details. 

My thoughts are thus, by analysis the scene, we are supposed to conclude Adolin is going through shock here and is not being completely mentally sound.

[Argel he/him]

I agree with you guys overall, just saying I don't think it works well here once taking a closer look at the scene. One thing that bothers me is that if the lantern is the only lighting, it should be more memorable. Not to mention that did Sadeas immediately drop it or try and hit Adolin with it? ANd we don't know how sturdy the are -- did a fire start?  Maybe Brandon is thinking you just pick up your light source (e.g. flashlight in the woods) as second nature, but unless he returned via a different route, he should have run into his other lantern, and I just do not see how that is something overlooked.

Now with that said, if we assume that what we are told is reliable, then that could be a strong clue that Adolin returned a different way and there are chalk marks he failed to etch away, which in turn means others will probably be more likely to notice the etched off chalk mark(s).

Here's his return:

Quote

 

Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (pp. 1068-1069). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Where the weapon is implied to be Oathbringer. The "Blade" is not mentioned for the cuffs, so I think it's implied he took the knife out of Sadeas and used those to cut off the cuffs. Edit: That's not the kind of thing you would use a shardblade for -- one slip and you could cut your hand off.

So in theory he has the knife and went back a different way.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Argel

[DSC01 he/him]

I'm pretty sure that the corridors in Urithiru are all stone. To the Shin, Urithiru is okay to walk on, even though walking on stone is otherwise blasphemous. I know it doesn't say it outright, but that made me think that the place is all stone. If so, that means that whatever happened to the lanterns, it wouldn't start a fire.

[Rasarr she/her]

There are tapestries on the wall, though, those are definitely flammable. Though aren't the lanters infused spheres, or are there no more infused spheres left, so far into the Weeping? If its the former, fire hazard is a non-issue.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

I agree with you guys overall, just saying I don't think it works well here once taking a closer look at the scene. One thing that bothers me is that if the lantern is the only lighting, it should be more memorable. Not to mention that did Sadeas immediately drop it or try and hit Adolin with it? ANd we don't know how sturdy the are -- did a fire start?  Maybe Brandon is thinking you just pick up your light source (e.g. flashlight in the woods) as second nature, but unless he returned via a different route, he should have run into his other lantern, and I just do not see how that is something overlooked.

Now with that said, if we assume that what we are told is reliable, then that could be a strong clue that Adolin returned a different way and there are chalk marks he failed to etch away, which in turn means others will probably be more likely to notice the etched off chalk mark(s).

Here's his return:

Where the weapon is implied to be Oathbringer. The "Blade" is not mentioned for the cuffs, so I think it's implied he took the knife out of Sadeas and used those to cut off the cuffs. Edit: That's not the kind of thing you would use a shardblade for -- one slip and you could cut your hand off.

So in theory he has the knife and went back a different way.

I think, based on the text at hand, we can't determine with any level of precision what truly happened. All we can do is identify the unnamed elements which may come into play in the future books which I think we did a good job at catching on: the lanterns, the knife, the marks on the wall, potential stains on Adolin's uniform, potential parcel of Adolin's uniform onto Sadeas's hands... Did I forget any?

One thing I am rather convinced of is Adolin's mental state. In the extract you quoted, it says "Thoughts coming more clearly" and the "stumbled away" clearly highlights how disturbed he was.

I would also state the fact he went back to erase his own mark suggested he walked back towards where he left his own lantern. It isn't stated he picked it up thought. It may be Sadeas's lantern gave enough light it didn't register in his mind he should take it. 

As for cutting of his cuffs, yes many people assumed he used his knife to do it, but his knife was sticky with bloody brain matter. Nowhere is it stated he cleaned the Blade onto something so either he cut them off with a bloody knife or he did use his Shardblade. It is just... yes I agree it may be he did it right, but it may also be he didn't. While I do agree using his Blade doesn't seem as a smart move, neither does using his own stained knife. Does anyone know how well and easily can a knife clean up? Seems unlikely he didn't put any additional stains on his uniform if he did use his own knife.

I would also point out it must have been dirty business... Even if he did cut off his cuffs without causing any additional stains, how about his hands? Cleaning the knife without dirtying your own hands seems unlikely, especially since he didn't have a clothe to wipe himself onto anything besides Sadeas's uniform which lay amidst a pool of blood. I think it likely Adolin's hands aren't clean: his nails probably are dirty with dried blood.... Did someone notice?

3 hours ago, DSC01 said:

I'm pretty sure that the corridors in Urithiru are all stone. To the Shin, Urithiru is okay to walk on, even though walking on stone is otherwise blasphemous. I know it doesn't say it outright, but that made me think that the place is all stone. If so, that means that whatever happened to the lanterns, it wouldn't start a fire.

 

3 hours ago, Rasarr said:

There are tapestries on the wall, though, those are definitely flammable. Though aren't the lanters infused spheres, or are there no more infused spheres left, so far into the Weeping? If its the former, fire hazard is a non-issue.

If my memory serves me right (I haven't had access to my books for weeks), Adolin's lantern was inflammable, but I do not recall reading anything about Sadeas's lantern... Adolin comments how stormlight had become scarce which explains why he was using an oil lamp (I think the combustible was oil, but I may be recalling wrong, so please correct me). 

Therefore, could it be Sadeas's lantern was powered by stormlight and thus not at risk to cause a fire or to go dim. This being said, I agree with DSC01: the corridors are most likely in stone and thus not at risk to cause a fire.

[Argel he/him]

40 minutes ago, maxal said:

As for cutting of his cuffs, yes many people assumed he used his knife to do it, but his knife was sticky with bloody brain matter. Nowhere is it stated he cleaned the Blade onto something so either he cut them off with a bloody knife or he did use his Shardblade. It is just... yes I agree it may be he did it right, but it may also be he didn't. While I do agree using his Blade doesn't seem as a smart move, neither does using his own stained knife. Does anyone know how well and easily can a knife clean up? Seems unlikely he didn't put any additional stains on his uniform if he did use his own knife.

I would also point out it must have been dirty business... Even if he did cut off his cuffs without causing any additional stains, how about his hands? Cleaning the knife without dirtying your own hands seems unlikely, especially since he didn't have a clothe to wipe himself onto anything besides Sadeas's uniform which lay amidst a pool of blood. I think it likely Adolin's hands aren't clean: his nails probably are dirty with dried blood.... Did someone notice?

Those are good arguments. Regarding knife vs Blade, given the amount of shardblade training and real experience he has had, I would lean towards he has been conditioned not to use it in a way that risks e.g. cutting your hand off, so I don't think he would make that kind of mistake.

It's never stated, but he probably has a canteen. That would make sense if exploring for a few hours. 

And he could have cleaned his hands and the knife on Sadeas' clothing.

Note: bloody hands opening a canteen.... Another possible giveaway.

Not looking so good for Adolin.  One thing that could work in his favor though is if that team is wrapping up their exploration and heading back. That could give him a chance to get cleaned up before the members of the team learn about the murder. If they learn about the murder before Adolin has a chance to cleanup....

 

55 minutes ago, maxal said:

Therefore, could it be Sadeas's lantern was powered by stormlight and thus not at risk to cause a fire or to go dim. This being said, I agree with DSC01: the corridors are most likely in stone and thus not at risk to cause a fire.

I was thinking more that Sadeas's clothes could catch on fire.

Good point about the type of lantern. It's never stated what either type is, though we can guess that Adolin's is more likely to be oil since they are so low on Stormlight.

But "lantern" is used for both sphere lanterns and oil lanterns, so we cannot say for sure. Sadeas's is more likely to be a sphere lantern though. Well, it would be very interesting if Adolin left with an oil lantern and came back with a sphere lantern....

Not looking good for Adolin. It's starting to look more like he will be found out. I guess one question is will the exploration team cover for him. Was it a Kholin only team? Was an ardent with them (or more than one)?

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Argel said:

Those are good arguments. Regarding knife vs Blade, given the amount of shardblade training and real experience he has had, I would lean towards he has been conditioned not to use it in a way that risks e.g. cutting your hand off, so I don't think he would make that kind of mistake.

It's never stated, but he probably has a canteen. That would make sense if exploring for a few hours. 

And he could have cleaned his hands and the knife on Sadeas' clothing.

Note: bloody hands opening a canteen.... Another possible giveaway.

Not looking so good for Adolin.  One thing that could work in his favor though is if that team is wrapping up their exploration and heading back. That could give him a chance to get cleaned up before the members of the team learn about the murder. If they learn about the murder before Adolin has a chance to cleanup....

I would lean towards thinking Adolin would not try at using his own Shardblade to cut of his cuffs, but it may be he did. 

Yes, he may have had a canteen, but how does those open up? Anyone else wondering how the heck Adolin managed to cut his cuffs, to clean everything with a broken wrist? He basically had to do everything with one single hands... He'd need both hands to cut of the cuffs, so how did he even manage? His arm must ache pretty bad by the end of the fight... 

Adolin is leading the exploration effort: no way he is getting the easy way out and a quiet stroll to the next available bath. He'd be expected to hear the reports from all of the scouting teams, to oversee the break out of their operations, not to scurry around unseen. It may very well be Sadeas's body will be discovered before Adolin had any chance to clean up: he may get caught right here and there  

7 minutes ago, Argel said:

I was thinking more that Sadeas's clothes could catch on fire.

Good point about the type of lantern. It's never stated what either type is, though we can guess that Adolin's is more likely to be oil since they are so low on Stormlight.

But "lantern" is used for both sphere lanterns and oil lanterns, so we cannot say for sure. Sadeas's is more likely to be a sphere lantern though. Well, it would be very interesting if Adolin left with an oil lantern and came back with a sphere lantern....

Not looking good for Adolin. It's starting to look more like he will be found out. I guess one question is will the exploration team cover for him. Was it a Kholin only team? Was an ardent with them (or more than one)?

 

They are low on stormglight in Urithiru: nothing is said about how Sadeas's camp has been doing with theirs. It may be they had larger contingency. 

Even if it was a Kholin team, why would they lie? They would never suspect Adolin nor the reason for the interrogation so unless someone preps them up to lie for him, I doubt they would spontaneously do it.

Anyone ever thought Adolin could be found out practically immediately? 

[Argel he/him]

56 minutes ago, maxal said:

He'd need both hands to cut of the cuffs, so how did he even manage? His arm must ache pretty bad by the end of the fight... 

It's even worse than that -- he still has a wounded hand. 

59 minutes ago, maxal said:

Even if it was a Kholin team, why would they lie?

Because of Sadeas's betrayal at the end of TWoK. Dalinar's forces were decimated -- that's a lot of lost comrades, windows, orphans, etc.  How many might applaud what Adolin did?  

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Anyone ever thought Adolin could be found out practically immediately? 

Adolin is probably lucky he wasn't found at the crime scene still cleaning up. Most likely both of Sadeas's teams (guards and his wife) thought he went somewhere else (like back to wherever they are staying) and didn't go back to look for him till much later. Otherwise, I would think that e.g. after 15 minutes  at least his wife would have backtracked. That's not a lot of time to do a lot of cleanup, especially with a recovering hand that was just presumably partially re-injured.

Yeah, he could definitely be discovered quickly. It really depends on how quickly Sadeas's people go looking for him. Note that if they go back a different way, it may take awhile before they realize he (Sadeas) was last seen out there where the exploration parties were. The other factor is if the exploration team notices something and starts asking questions (like where that blood he probably missed cleaning came from). If the original injury to his hand caused bleeding, then he may be able to make up an excuse (tripped and fell an re-injured it). 

But anyway, I agree he could definitely be discovered quickly.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

It's even worse than that -- he still has a wounded hand. 

That's what I meant: I meant his right arm must hurt since he pushed a knife with his wounded hand. Also, it isn't just wounded: it is broken. In all appearances, Adolin broke his wrist bones during the fight with Szeth. Typically, when both wrist bones are broken, the arm has to be immobilized above the elbow to avoid torsion which could impair the healing. The first week after bones are broken, all which heals is the swelling: bones only start to meant afterwards. 

Of course, Adolin's arm has not been properly cared for and the pushing probably cause a lot of additional swelling. How he even managed to close his hand on the knife is rather unexpected: just after the fight, already he couldn't flex his fingers. Five days later, the swelling must still prevent him from doing so. Sure in the heat of the battle, he made it, but afterwards? I suspect his hand has gone back to being useless, plus it must hurt now.

8 hours ago, Argel said:

Because of Sadeas's betrayal at the end of TWoK. Dalinar's forces were decimated -- that's a lot of lost comrades, windows, orphans, etc.  How many might applaud what Adolin did?  

Yes, but they may not know why they are being interrogated. If it happens quickly enough for them to be oblivious as to the reasons why they are being asked questions. They also not know Adolin himself is a suspect. A good interrogator would not try to weight in Adolin's men loyalty, but they would ask about how the explorations are conducted, if people may go on their own, and such.

8 hours ago, Argel said:

Adolin is probably lucky he wasn't found at the crime scene still cleaning up. Most likely both of Sadeas's teams (guards and his wife) thought he went somewhere else (like back to wherever they are staying) and didn't go back to look for him till much later. Otherwise, I would think that e.g. after 15 minutes  at least his wife would have backtracked. That's not a lot of time to do a lot of cleanup, especially with a recovering hand that was just presumably partially re-injured.

Yeah, he could definitely be discovered quickly. It really depends on how quickly Sadeas's people go looking for him. Note that if they go back a different way, it may take awhile before they realize he (Sadeas) was last seen out there where the exploration parties were. The other factor is if the exploration team notices something and starts asking questions (like where that blood he probably missed cleaning came from). If the original injury to his hand caused bleeding, then he may be able to make up an excuse (tripped and fell an re-injured it). 

But anyway, I agree he could definitely be discovered quickly.

I think he is lucky as well nobody was close enough to hear and nobody came back for the Highprince while he was still around. The time frame, his injured hand, his mental state all this are weighting factors which serve to make me think he didn't do such a good job. 

Other factors, did Sadeas land a punch on Adolin? Does he have new visible bruises? Already, his face was a patchwork of nasty bruises, but did it got worst? In all appearances, there were no hits, just tumbling and falling, but the text does highlight Adolin is bruised all over and still recovering. By all means, he should be hurting now: someone may notice it. I mean, how many injuries Adolin can realistically pill up before it starts to visibly impact him?

I wouldn't worry about bleeding though: his hand is injured because the wrist bones are broken. It probably isn't bleeding. I'd worry more about something on his face bleeding. I totally see Adolin try to make up a fake excuse for it.... 

[Yata he/him]

I think Shallan would help Adolin to recover from what he did.

In my head it's what the Lightweaver Order does. Be the psicological helper to the other orders and the people. Their purpose to me is "improvement" take people and made express their potential or reforge broken people

Edited August 16, 2016 by Yata

[DSC01 he/him]

As far as we know, the only real injury sustained by anyone during Adolin and Sadeas's fight was the killing stab. I'm no expert, but I don't think bleeding would be as big an issue with the blade through the eye as with many other knife wounds. If he cut the cuffs off of his shirt with the knife (which seems more reasonable than using his Shardblade, though I admit that Adolin wasn't in a reasonable state of mind), cleaning it first would probably be pretty basic: just wipe it on Sadeas's clothing. Again, I know his state of mind is such that he still could have messed that up, but it was still potentially a very easy cover up. It remains possible that Adolin covered his tracks adequately.

The more I think about it, the more I realize how much was left out of this scene. We've already gone most of it (maybe all of it, really): What happened to the lamps? What did Adolin do with his knife? Et cetera.  I really think that it written that way intentionally. One can reasonably interpret the scene in opposite ways (Adolin will get away with the murder as long as he doesn't act suspicious because he cleaned everything up, versus Adolin botched the cover up and is going to be found out no matter how he behaves). That makes it a good cliffhanger.

[DSC01 he/him]

19 minutes ago, Yata said:

I think Shallan would help Adolin to recover from what he did.

In my head it's what the Lightweaver Order does. Be the psicological helper to the other orders and the people. Their purpose to me is "improvement" take people and made express their potential.

P.S. Yata makes a good point here. We've been speculating about how Shallan would take the news that Adolin killed Sadeas, with most of us (it seems) assuming that it would be a problem for their relationship. That really doesn't match how Lightweavers behave, though. I mean, Shallan helped redeem Gaz! If it was a problem in their relationship, it would likely also be a problem for her advancement in her Order. 

[Yata he/him]

Of course I don't mean she will be "ah You killed Sadeas...ok"... But she would understand Adolin's reason (probably) and be a supporter to him (unless this link Adonlin with her father in her mind)

[HonorIsDead he/him]

I think that BS might have been looking for an excuse to kill Adolin so he could set Kaladin and Shalan up, this might not be the most likely, especially since their sprens hate each other, but after those scenes in the chasms they both seem to have an interest in one another that is more than that of casual friendship.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, DSC01 said:

As far as we know, the only real injury sustained by anyone during Adolin and Sadeas's fight was the killing stab. I'm no expert, but I don't think bleeding would be as big an issue with the blade through the eye as with many other knife wounds. If he cut the cuffs off of his shirt with the knife (which seems more reasonable than using his Shardblade, though I admit that Adolin wasn't in a reasonable state of mind), cleaning it first would probably be pretty basic: just wipe it on Sadeas's clothing. Again, I know his state of mind is such that he still could have messed that up, but it was still potentially a very easy cover up. It remains possible that Adolin covered his tracks adequately.

The more I think about it, the more I realize how much was left out of this scene. We've already gone most of it (maybe all of it, really): What happened to the lamps? What did Adolin do with his knife? Et cetera.  I really think that it written that way intentionally. One can reasonably interpret the scene in opposite ways (Adolin will get away with the murder as long as he doesn't act suspicious because he cleaned everything up, versus Adolin botched the cover up and is going to be found out no matter how he behaves). That makes it a good cliffhanger.

This is a good post. I agree with you here: a lot was left out and it was intentional which is why it makes such a good cliffhanger. We do not know everything, if we did, then we wouldn't be speaking about it so much. This being said, I also think it will get resolved rather quickly. Why? Because murder and mysteries story arcs only works well when the reader is not aware of who did what and is thus guided to discover it as the same pace as the main protagonist. Here, we already know who the culprit is which is why I do believe Adolin is found out early going into book 3. The cliffhanger is not with regards as to who killed Sadeas, but as to what will happen to Adolin, the consequences, the ramifications: this is the story we all want to read. 

I thus think we'll get it soon within Part 1: the consequences. The ramifications may spread over several books.

5 hours ago, DSC01 said:

P.S. Yata makes a good point here. We've been speculating about how Shallan would take the news that Adolin killed Sadeas, with most of us (it seems) assuming that it would be a problem for their relationship. That really doesn't match how Lightweavers behave, though. I mean, Shallan helped redeem Gaz! If it was a problem in their relationship, it would likely also be a problem for her advancement in her Order. 

I consider myself sitting on on the fence for this one: I think the argument works well both ways and I can definitely see it played out in various ways. 

1 hour ago, The_God_King said:

I think that BS might have been looking for an excuse to kill Adolin so he could set Kaladin and Shalan up, this might not be the most likely, especially since their sprens hate each other, but after those scenes in the chasms they both seem to have an interest in one another that is more than that of casual friendship.

I do not think so. Adolin died in the first draft of WoK and Shallan previously was engaged to another character: Brandon changed all of this. Part of Kaladin's story arc weren't supposed to happen until much later, but were moved to WoR. I suspect the killing of Syl and the chasm scenes are those scenes. Why? It all changed when Brandon engaged Shallan to Adolin.

I thus do not think Brandon is looking for an excuse to kill Adolin not to mention it would be horribly unpopular if he did so. 

[Argel he/him]

On 8/16/2016 at 9:32 AM, maxal said:

Other factors, did Sadeas land a punch on Adolin? Does he have new visible bruises? Already, his face was a patchwork of nasty bruises, but did it got worst? In all appearances, there were no hits, just tumbling and falling, but the text does highlight Adolin is bruised all over and still recovering. By all means, he should be hurting now: someone may notice it. I mean, how many injuries Adolin can realistically pill up before it starts to visibly impact him?

Sadeas is holding a lantern when Adolin attacks. I'm assuming he tried to hit Adolin with it. Maybe he just dropped it to get better leverage/flexibility with both hands, or to draw a knife, or to try and get better lighting (mroe useful if it's a sphere lantern or if oil lanterns are hard to break). But it's makeshift weapon in his hand, so you would think he would try and use it like one at least once.

If Adolin is killed off, I'm expecting at at the end of SA5. Sooner than that currently feels "off" to me. That could obviously change, but I think what we do know right now from the books and WoBs suggest Adolin will be around for some time.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

Sadeas is holding a lantern when Adolin attacks. I'm assuming he tried to hit Adolin with it. Maybe he just dropped it to get better leverage/flexibility with both hands, or to draw a knife, or to try and get better lighting (mroe useful if it's a sphere lantern or if oil lanterns are hard to break). But it's makeshift weapon in his hand, so you would think he would try and use it like one at least once.

If Adolin is killed off, I'm expecting at at the end of SA5. Sooner than that currently feels "off" to me. That could obviously change, but I think what we do know right now from the books and WoBs suggest Adolin will be around for some time.

If Sadeas tried to hit Adolin with his lantern, it isn't mentioned. If he dropped it to the ground, it isn't mentioned either. It seems more probable he had put it down when he stopped to admire the tapestry. If he tried to draw his knife out, it isn't mentioned either. As far as we can tell, Adolin draws his knife first: Sadeas never got the chance to draw his.

I am not expecting Adolin to die anytime soon: not only it would be terribly unpopular, the series would loose one of its most cohesive voice. It hasn't been planned, but Adolin currently serves as the link to unite all characters together. He also has more to offer alive then death. The never-ending debate stating killing Adolin is the best choice as it is guaranteed to create a lasting impact onto both the readers and the remaining characters is not, IMHO, valid. You could kill Kaladin and achieve the same result, you could kill Dalinar and achieve the same result. Adolin needs not die: he is just more interesting alive, he is too unique to die right away.

[Argel he/him]

On 8/17/2016 at 10:28 PM, maxal said:

It seems more probable he had put it down when he stopped to admire the tapestry.

Possible, but supposedly it's the only light source, so wouldn't you hold it to take a closer look at the details? Plus holding it allows you keep the lighting at the center of tapastery and thus more even lighting than putting it on the floor. Doesn't sound like a good reason to put the lantern down.

Also, Sadeas was holding it when he first notice Adolin:

Quote

Sadeas spun, raising his lantern. “Ah, Prince Adolin.”

and...

Quote

The highprince strolled up the hallway, passing Adolin. “This place is remarkable. Remarkable indeed.”

then...

Quote

Adolin grabbed Sadeas by the throat with his unwounded hand, slamming the highprince back against the wall.

I'm guessing Sadeas drops the lantern here. Maybe he still has it when they go rolling, but this seems like a good candidate. It's also right when the rage overcomes Adolin, so he may remember the least amount here, vs. rolling with the lantern, which seems a bit more memorable (especially if Adolin rolled over it).

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Argel

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Argel said:

Possible, but supposedly it's the only light source, so wouldn't you hold it to take a closer look at the details? Plus holding it allows you keep the lighting at the center of tapastery and thus more even lighting than putting it on the floor. Doesn't sound like a good reason to put the lantern down.

Also, Sadeas was holding it when he first notice Adolin:

and...

then...

I'm guessing Sadeas drops the lantern here. Maybe he still has it when they go rolling, but this seems like a good candidate. It's also right when the rage overcomes Adolin, so he may remember the least amount here, vs. rolling with the lantern, which seems a bit more memorable (especially if Adolin rolled over it).

 

Nice post. I agree it seems highly probable Sadeas dropped his lantern when Adolin jumped to this throat. It would carefully advance myself in saying it may give us a clue as to whether it was an oil lantern or a stormlight fueled one. Thus, I would argue an oil lantern, once dropped on the floor, would have likely gone dark while a gemstone lantern wouldn't have been bothered. Since, as others pointed out, it doesn't appear as if there is shortage of lightening during and after the scene which seems to indicate it didn't go dim, hence it seems more likely the lantern wasn't an oiled one as opposed to the one Adolin left behind.

Therefore, if dazed Adolin picked up Sadeas's lantern instead of his own, then it would most certainly give him up.

Or we are just putting too much stock into this lantern... Adolin backtracked his steps, he took his own lantern when he walked out, but it somehow isn't mentioned in the scene... It is funny how Brandon has Adolin go over some actions in details while not mentioning others... I recall, once upon a time, when I did theater classes, the teacher used to tell us how objects had to be used in scenes. You can't simply have a character have an object for no purpose: if someone carries a lantern into a scene, then it cannot lay forgotten unless it was meant to. Of course, we are talking book here and not play writing, but I get the feeling stuff Brandon left out was left out because Adolin left them out.

 

 

[Djarskublar he/him]

One thing: blood is easy to clean off your body without DNA testing. It's called a tongue. Almost everyone has one. I'm sure Adolin does. I bet everyone who reads this has sucked blood off their fingers after having a nosebleed. After checking his clothes for blood he just has to lick himself clean. Pretty gross, but if he can handle it, it will cleans his hands and knife quite well. Just wipe the gore on Sadeas first. Brain matter isn't as edible.

[Argel he/him]

FWIW, Peter didn't seem to think Sadeas' lantern mattered that much. I think we are over-evaluating the scene, and likely the evidence, etc. I wonder if Adolin will just admit it to someone. Could be a hard secret for him to keep. If Kaladin was there, he might go to him. But since he's not, maybe Renarin or Shallan? Or maybe pull a Kaldadin and visit Vasher/Zahel. I think he's less likely to talk to his father at least not before talking to someone else. Navani is a wildcard here -- he could go to her, thinking she would be sympathetic (Sadeas trying to get Dalinar killed on the shattered plains likely left a very bad taste in her mouth).

Edit: So some thoughts:

Shallan: Not sure if they are close enough for him to confide in her. She's more independent (I.e. not tied to a highprince) and he may know how loyal she is to her family. 

Navani: He knows she can keep a secret, is in a realtoinship with his father, so if he's seeking advice on whether or how to bring it up with Dalinar should could be a good choice. And as mentioned, she will likely think the murder was for the best.

Renarin: Always supports Adolin. Not much to go on beyond that, but that could be enough. 

Dalinar: Not likely to approve. Probably would not go well. May tell Dalinar if there's a need for him to know though.

Elohkar: If he wants to be exiled.....

Navani and Renarin: Sort of a family conference. More likely if Adolin wants to tell his father. 

Navani and Dalinar: Navani could reign Dalinar in, help make him see things from a different perspective. Also, this could occur after Adolin has conferred with others (e.g. Navani, Navani and Renarin). I think this would be a very smart move if he wants to tell his father.

And then there's Navai, Renarin, and Dalinar (and just maybe Shallan), which I think is most likely if there is some kind of political pressure going on. That is, at a high level, something similar to the Dalinar's Visions situation.

I'm leaning towards Shallan and/or one of the two-or-more scenarios.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Argel