Adolin's Fate?

[Elenion he/him]

1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

Adolin is the first son. The older siblings usually have it harder

Amen! (I'm the oldest)

3 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

There is a difference between battle and a duel. For example, it is a good idea to lure enemy forces into a trap in battle; it is unacceptable to ambush the opponent in a duel.

I see your point there, although Adolin v Sadeas wasn't exactly an uneven fight; it wasn't like Adolin strangled him while wearing full shardplate.

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, Elenion said:

I see your point there, although Adolin v Sadeas wasn't exactly an uneven fight; it wasn't like Adolin strangled him while wearing full shardplate.

Um... what? I was trying to say that your example of Adolin fighting Parshendi is misguided So my point is that yes, Adolin wants to fight his enemies on equal ground and that war doesn't count.

Attacking Sadeas wasn't an act of war - it was closer to the Adolin's view of duel (as in his mind he has clear distinction of duels and battles).

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, Oversleep said:

Um... what? I was trying to say that your example of Adolin fighting Parshendi is misguided So my point is that yes, Adolin wants to fight his enemies on equal ground and that war doesn't count.

Attacking Sadeas wasn't an act of war - it was closer to the Adolin's view of duel (as in his mind he has clear distinction of duels and battles).

It indeed was Adolin's idea of a duel, probably one of the reasons that he didn't draw his blade during the fight, in addition to the inherent weaknesses of such a long weapon. Adolin will see Sadeas' death as the result as that of him winning a duel, in my opinion.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

I agree. I was just pointing out that Dalinar may feel guilt and regret over it, and that could affect his response. I think Dalinar would have preferred that he (Dalinar) did something his old Blackthorn self would have done instead of Adolin.

I agree about this statement. While I am not sure Dalinar would wish he had done it himself, I think it likely he'd see Adolin's actions as his own failure, as a father. If Adolin snaps, then it is because Dalinar was not hard enough on him... There are many ways the author could play the father/son relationship here and all are interesting, IMHO.

4 hours ago, Argel said:

I'm not convinced on that. Maybe the flashbacks will shed more light, but e.g. if Dalinar has done the same or worse in his past and Adolin knows something about them, then I think that lessens things considerably. If Dalinar comes down on him hard having done worse in his own past then that could lead to a rift between two -- one where Adolin moves on with probably some regrets, but not as much guilt as you believe.

 

And good point about a shardbearer being 4th dahn. I forgot about that. Sebarial would likely take her in since he's so far along that path already and I don't think Shallan would object.

Based on what we have read so far, it appears as if Adolin doesn't know much about his father's past. He seems to be mostly acquainted with his moments of glory as opposed to his moments of folly. He hero-worships his father, I doubt he sees him as anything else than a true hero. His perception are, IMHO, highly biased and probably wrong. I get the feeling Dalinar didn't want his kiddie to know the truth about him, so he filtered the stories which got to reach them.

I also don't see Adolin thinking his father is unfair... For this to happen, Adolin would need to stop seeing Dalinar as a hero and I don't see this happening readily, especially now he is a Radiant. Therefore, as long as Adolin perceives his father as the "greatest man alive", he will feel horribly guilty he disappointed him, deceived him even by failing at not being as "good as he was supposed to". He allowed Dalinar to call him the better man only to deceive him days later by breaking everything Dalinar stands for. 

No matter how I shuffle it, I see guilt. A great deal of guilt and I think how Adolin perceives his actions will be major to his character arc and his perception may not be the same as others. He may go harsh on himself, harsher than others.

2 hours ago, Elenion said:

If Adolin really wanted to fight while at equal strength, he wouldn't have used Shardplate and a Shardplate against the Parshendi.

Adolin doesn't realize he is slaughtering the Parshendis because he is enthralled by the Thrill and while wrap in it, he cannot assess the fact he is nothing more than a brute killing helpless foes. Once he gets rid of it, he is so horrified by his own actions, he shakes, trembles and drops his own Blade in the mist of a battle. Therefore, the fact Adolin is able to use Plate and Blade against the Parshendis merely has to do with him being subjected to the Thrill which sheltered him from the carnage. Once he rejects it: he can't do it. He can't slay the helpless Parshendis anymore. He is grateful for Eshonai to show up and to give him something he can do: a fair fight. It is also why he hates hunting so much: no Thrill there and only a butchery which does not sit well with him.

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I think I know why Dalinar is harsher on Adolin. There are multiple reasons for that.

1. Adolin is the first son. The older siblings usually have it harder... but in this case, it also means he is an heir not only the the Kholin princedom, but a potential heir to the throne of the Alethkar itself. Adolin has to be ready for such things. Before somebody points out that Dalinar cuts Elhokar more slack, I want to remind that Elhokar is not Dalinar's son, so things are different.
2. Every father wants their children to be good. If he doubts himself, he wants them to be better than him. Dalinar is not exactly happy about the man he was, the Blackthorn. He wants Adolin to be better man than him, so he is harsher.
3. Tied to that, he is probably scared of Adolin taking after him. He may see Adolin becoming the next Blackthorn and is scared of that.
4. ... There was something else, but I forgot.

There is a difference between battle and a duel. For example, t is a good idea to lure enemy forces into a trap in battle; it is unacceptable to ambush the opponent in a duel.

I really like number 4.... No seriously, this was asked to Brandon and his answer had to do with Adolin being the eldest and the heir. He also mentioned it was a flaw within Dalinar and he acknowledged Dalinar indeed was harder on him than on Elhokar and Renarin. He (by he I mean Brandon) said Dalinar was too strict on certain things, but too lenient on others. 

I personally read a lot of built-up being made up for the father/son relationship here... Father is too hard on his eldest son while being too lenient on the youngest. Nobody thinks much of it because the eldest hero-worships the father and is pleased to do as his father tells him to. For some reason I could speculate on but won't, Adolin has grown-up very wrap-up into wanting to fit everyone's expectations, he thus always tries to be what others want him to be, constantly. If his father is a hard judge, he is an even harsher one: he demands nothing else but perfection onto himself while his father demands perfection out of him, a dangerous combination. The rift happens when the son cracks under both the pressure his father has put on him and the one he put on himself: the son is disappointed, devastated because he wanted to be perfect for his father and the father is disappointed because he expected the son to be perfect. I can see where each others expectations are playing against each other and the one standing in the middle is Adolin: he is the one who had to be perfect for everyone to be happy. 

Love those relationships, I can't say if I am right or if the story is going this way, but this is how I currently read it.

 

[Argel he/him]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

Based on what we have read so far, it appears as if Adolin doesn't know much about his father's past

If there are less savory things I have a very hard time believing Adolin has not heard something. If nothing else, soldiers talk, especially older soldiers. That would be one impressive spy network Dalinar has to keep his past a secret from his his son. 

We do have hints that he has only heard about the heroic/epic type stuff. But those could also just be Adolin finally getting a chance to see his father doing something heroic/epic like he has heard about, not not the has not heard about anything else.

If he has not heard about the less savory stuff then that feels like an oversight by Brandon. 

It's also worth noting the less savory stuff will be much less savory to us than the Alethi, so not given as much attention.

I can see a rift forming too because Dalinar is too harsh. Navani could be a wildcard here though, taking in the role of step-mother.

 

[galendo]

On 8/5/2016 at 10:41 PM, Elenion said:

The core belief of Alethi ethics appears to be a strange variation of capitalism: every person is not only encouraged but expected to serve their own self above anyone else. The only crime is going against the plan or belief of someone above you socially.

 

This isn't really true, though.  If it were, Ehlokar would have been able to deal much more summarily with Moash's grandparents, who weren't even lighteyes, and Roshone wouldn't have been banished for his antics, either.  It's true that some of the powerful characters don't act properly and get away with it (Sadeas, Aramam, etc.), but even in the case of Aramam, he mostly only gets away with what he did because he hid his crime.  You can get away with a lot if you don't get caught, but don't mistake that for something encouraged or expected.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

People are being harsh when it comes to Adolin, harsher than with any other character, and it is hard to figure out why exactly. Is it because, as you say, he is too likable hence people try to hammer into him more strongly? Is it because we spend so much time within Kaladin's head, we end up adopting his views on everything including Adolin? Why are so many readers calling Adolin a "spoiled brat", but very few are using the words to describe Renarin or Jasnah whom are, just as spoiled if not more? So why is it always Adolin who gathers the negative comments? It is baffling.

Or it could be that we think that what he did was the most reprehensible crime that we've seen a "good" character commit yet.  I don't know about Adolin being a spoiled brat, though he's definitely privileged, and bratty at times.  We can argue Adolin versus Jasnah all we like and perhaps never reach agreement on whose crime was worse.  That's one of the great things about SA.  Even for the immoral characters, you can usually kind of see where they're coming from, how they could be the heroes of their own story if only things were a little bit different.

Though I will say that I considered Jasnah's killing the thugs much more acceptable at the end of book 1 than I did by the end of book 2.  At the end of book one, I thought she was actually risking her life for a cause she believed in.  By the end of book 2, when I realized just how unstoppable Stormlight made someone, her actions took on a darker tone -- a bit closer to murder than previously thought.  I still think that Adolin's was worse, though.  That actually was straight-up murder.

Quote

It is possible, but I doubt it. He'll be found in Part 1. Brandon will not let this story drag on for too long. My thoughts are there won't be many legal consequences, but whether or not others declare him guilty or not won't change a thing on how Adolin sees himself. This will be the on-going arc, not the "Who killed Sadeas?".

Found out in part 1?  I doubt it.  I don't expect Adolin to be found out until the latter half of part 2 at earliest, and it wouldn't at all surprise me for it to not be until part 4, if at all.  You want to give the readers some sense of what Adolin's going through, the guilt he feels and the fear of discovery, but you don't want to do that right off the bat (i.e., not in part one), because of course it's one of the things the readers are most interested in, and you want them to be guessing right along with the other characters.  Keep that tension high!  Someone mentioned Crime and Punishment earlier, and I'll just point out that there a character's remorse and fear was enough to carry almost all the book.  I did think it got a little tedious near the end, but that sort of pathos should be good for several hundred pages at least, especially when it's spaced out among other viewpoint characters.

It's entirely possible that the other main characters don't find out who killed Sadeas at all, though Ialai will likely know (I'm not sure they even have much motivation to look; why look a gift horse in the mouth?  Though probably Dalinar's sense of right would force him to investigate), but that we still see Adolin driven by his own internal guilt to do...something.  I'm not really sure what.  Something drastic, probably.

[Argel he/him]

7 hours ago, galendo said:

This isn't really true, though.  If it were, Ehlokar would have been able to deal much more summarily with Moash's grandparents, who weren't even lighteyes, and Roshone wouldn't have been banished for his antics, either.  It's true that some of the powerful characters don't act properly and get away with it (Sadeas, Aramam, etc.), but even in the case of Aramam, he mostly only gets away with what he did because he hid his crime.  You can get away with a lot if you don't get caught, but don't mistake that for something encouraged or expected.

More to the point, that's exactly like the real world. The more power you have, the more you can get away with. Being more of a feudal society though, this trickles down further, or perhaps just more transparently.

Regarding how soon we will find out... That all depends on where Brandon is going with it. If it's goign to cause a ton of political problems, then sooner than later. If it goes the "wracked with guilt" route, then I agree, likely later on. Though we should keep in mind tha structure of the book too. IIRC, is't the middle supposed to be filled with a lot of lore? 

[Erklitt]

On ‎06‎.‎08‎.‎2016 at 3:19 PM, maxal said:

You can't have people doing their own justice within the streets, to allow it is to allow chaos.

We will probably never see eye to eye on that Jasnah topic, and what makes it more difficult: I think we both feel strongly here, which makes it hard to be diplomatic. I'll make one more statement, and of course you are free to answer, and I'll read your answer, but not reply anymore, because I think it will lead nowhere. So as far as I'm concerned, you get the last word. I prefer discussing less sensitive topics with you in the future... however: one more statement.

That sentence of yours I quoted is the heart of the matter: it's a belief in justice and enforcement being the sole privilege of the state. That's great as long as you have a working constitutional state. But what if you haven't? What if this state fails in protecting it's citizens? A few hitches are one thing, a state failing in this primary duty big time and repeatedly is another. There comes a time when "doing their own justice within the streets" becomes the only option. Take the law into your own hands or watch countless innocents die. Distasteful or not, I am convinced Jasnah saved a lot of lifes. How many more would have been killed if she hadn't acted? It's easy to condemn her, and afterwards give your condolences to the future victims of those thugs. But in my personal opinion, to be honest, that's a little schizophrenic.

Just to emphasize one thing again: Jasnah didn't lay out a trap to murder them in their beds. Yes, she set a trap, but one that would only spring if the thugs, as expected, went out to murder her. It would have been easy for them to escape: just refrain from the murder attempt. To argue that Jasnah's trap was immoral implies that the thugs had established some kind of customary right to murder in this place if anyone displayed their wealth too prominently. Yes, Jasnah counted on them trying to murder her, but she did not make them do it. They produced the self-defense situation, not Jasnah. She foresaw it, but didn't produce it, That was the thugs' own decision entirely. Bad luck for them that for once, their 'victim' was stronger.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Erklitt

[galendo]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

Though we should keep in mind tha structure of the book too. IIRC, is't the middle supposed to be filled with a lot of lore? 

Is this a WoB?  I don't see any reason to suppose this is the case otherwise.  Granted, Dalinar et al will need to explore Urithiru at some point, and part three seems as good a place for a revelation as any (probably the best place, actually; part 1 allows no foreshadowing, part 2 busy with Adolin and maybe the Ghostbloods, and part 4 too late.  Part 5 and/or the epilogue would work as a cliffhanger but not as a plot-driver).  Plus, if previous books are a pattern, there won't be much time for lore-focused revelations once part 4 rolls around.  Then again, if the lore comes from the Stormfather, I could easily see it showing up in parts 1 or 2, since that's already been foreshadowed.  It's only if the revelation is going to be Urithiru-based that it would need to wait for parts 2 or 3.

This might be a fun idea for a thread: how would you structure Oathbringer?  Maybe I'll start it....

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Argel said:

If there are less savory things I have a very hard time believing Adolin has not heard something. If nothing else, soldiers talk, especially older soldiers. That would be one impressive spy network Dalinar has to keep his past a secret from his his son. 

We do have hints that he has only heard about the heroic/epic type stuff. But those could also just be Adolin finally getting a chance to see his father doing something heroic/epic like he has heard about, not not the has not heard about anything else.

If he has not heard about the less savory stuff then that feels like an oversight by Brandon. 

It's also worth noting the less savory stuff will be much less savory to us than the Alethi, so not given as much attention.

I can see a rift forming too because Dalinar is too harsh. Navani could be a wildcard here though, taking in the role of step-mother.

 

It isn't I disagree with you, but the evidence within the book seems to suggest otherwise. Adolin only speaks of his father high deeds, his greatness, but he never mentions is low ends. Once he speaks of how his father has gotten depressed, a shadow of himself after Gavilar's death, and it was enough to make him yearn to be a soldier, a career he did not want, just so he could have a chance at "saving" his father, thinking if vengeance could be extracted, then his father would be back to the man he once was. Yearning for the "old Dalinar" as opposed to the "new Dalinar" has been part of Adolin's little arc back in WoK. Based on his words, he sees the "old Dalinar" as a great man while the "new Dalinar" had gotten too entangled in the Way of Kings to do much greatness anymore. This is where he is coming from, early in WoK. I'd also point out Adolin did not know his father was dead drunk when Gavilar was murdered. It seems to me as he would have known, had he been aware of his father's falling, just as he would have been able to appreciate the positive change the code did to his father, but he is not seeing it. My thoughts are thus he isn't seeing because he was never truly aware of his father misgivings. 

Old soldiers talk, this is true, but I also suspect old soldiers also hold their tongues when speaking to the son of the Highprince...

Of course, since the evidence is slim at best, it could also be I am completely wrong. I would thus simply says it doesn't add up for me to have Adolin actually know much else about his father's past other than the high deeds. I do not think it an oversight on Brandon's part... Dalinar's great days as the Blackthorn are in the past and people usually remember the moments of glory, not the moments of insanity. Kholin soldiers respect their Highprince: they would not badmouth him, especially not in front of his son. It also appears as if, whatever failings he had, not many people thought much of it: they were overshadowed by his conquests and his battle prowess as these are what most Alethi would focus on. Therefore, the fact Dalinar was prompt to anger, was a drunk and was incapable of focusing on simple conversation would not have registered into the mind of most soldiers, but his dashing conquest of city XYZ, yes. 

I personally find it very plausible, within character and inline with the current story to have Adolin not know everything about his famous father. I agree thought the evidence is not conclusive.

18 hours ago, galendo said:

Or it could be that we think that what he did was the most reprehensible crime that we've seen a "good" character commit yet.  I don't know about Adolin being a spoiled brat, though he's definitely privileged, and bratty at times.  We can argue Adolin versus Jasnah all we like and perhaps never reach agreement on whose crime was worse.  That's one of the great things about SA.  Even for the immoral characters, you can usually kind of see where they're coming from, how they could be the heroes of their own story if only things were a little bit different.

Though I will say that I considered Jasnah's killing the thugs much more acceptable at the end of book 1 than I did by the end of book 2.  At the end of book one, I thought she was actually risking her life for a cause she believed in.  By the end of book 2, when I realized just how unstoppable Stormlight made someone, her actions took on a darker tone -- a bit closer to murder than previously thought.  I still think that Adolin's was worse, though.  That actually was straight-up murder.

Oh Adolin is privileged, spoiled, he knows nothing of the hardships of normal people and he can be bratty at times: my point is Renarin is just the same, but he never gets call out for it. The same for Jasnah, but she never gets call out on it. From my perspective, it can get annoying, sometimes.

Let's face it, the Kholins are good people, but they know nothing of "real life". Dalinar probably knows, but the younger generation has been raised in high privilege, each and every one of them, not just Adolin. Adolin, at least, is being asked to work for his "advantages" which is more that can be said about the other younger Kholins. He's basically the only one with a "day job", he is the only one having to "obey orders" and "show retribution". 

In the case of Jasnah, I didn't particularly like her back in WoK: I found her cold, emotionless and distant. I was only starting to warm up to her when she was killed. It is thus hard to picture her actions in any positive light. I was very troubled she could kills this easily and not feel... a thing at all: such characters tend to scare me. In comparison, Adolin is something I understand: snapping, losing it, having too much pressure, but the crucial element is, were he to go back in time, he wouldn't have killed Sadeas. He wouldn't have done it twice which thus marks his actions as... a mistake. A terrible one, but a mistake. Also, the fact he wasn't in full control of himself makes it less worst: it wasn't as deliberate as Jasnah. 

18 hours ago, galendo said:

Found out in part 1?  I doubt it.  I don't expect Adolin to be found out until the latter half of part 2 at earliest, and it wouldn't at all surprise me for it to not be until part 4, if at all.  You want to give the readers some sense of what Adolin's going through, the guilt he feels and the fear of discovery, but you don't want to do that right off the bat (i.e., not in part one), because of course it's one of the things the readers are most interested in, and you want them to be guessing right along with the other characters.  Keep that tension high!  Someone mentioned Crime and Punishment earlier, and I'll just point out that there a character's remorse and fear was enough to carry almost all the book.  I did think it got a little tedious near the end, but that sort of pathos should be good for several hundred pages at least, especially when it's spaced out among other viewpoint characters.

It's entirely possible that the other main characters don't find out who killed Sadeas at all, though Ialai will likely know (I'm not sure they even have much motivation to look; why look a gift horse in the mouth?  Though probably Dalinar's sense of right would force him to investigate), but that we still see Adolin driven by his own internal guilt to do...something.  I'm not really sure what.  Something drastic, probably.

Based on what Brandon has allowed to slip for Part 1, I'm pretty sure about it. He said it was the longest Part 1 he ever wrote, several hundred of pages and it was action-filled which has not been the case for the first two books. The readings he made indicate the whole "Kaladin goes back to Heartstone" gets settle very quickly, so this may not be the action. I thus suspect, a large chunk of Part 1 will deal with the aftermath of Sadeas's death. 

As for reading about Adolin being afraid of being discovered... I don't think it'll happen. Adolin has no POV within Part 1 and Part 2 appears to be bizarre: there is no telling if he has POV in there as well. Brandon would not let this arc drag on for too long: it isn't his style. While I haven't read Crime and Punishment, the arc suggested seems more fitting for a major character than a supporting one. So far, Brandon has reserved his deep emotional arc for Kaladin. I am not convinced he'll be ready to switch his gun and to write more of Adolin in such fashion (not that I would mind if he were).

Personally, I am convinced he is found out (how is another matter though). The guilt he'll feel is likely to push him to take drastic measure: now does this happen before or after he is found out, I cannot say. Maybe that's the action in Part 1: Adolin doing something very stupid and Dalinar scratching his head as to why.

6 hours ago, Erklitt said:

...

I was no aware this discussion has been anything else than friendly. I apologize if it somehow became something else, it was not my intention  I honestly do not care much to disagree with anyone about Jasnah: this simply isn't a subject I'll tear my shirt over. I only brought it up because I thought part of the readership was being slightly unfair towards Adolin. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, I agree to disagree with anyone on this subject. 

I'd however point out I find it rather strange to continue your own argument right after stating you will not bother with my own. If the subject makes you uncomfortable or if you dislike where the discussion is going, you can just respectfully bow out. Nobody would think twice of it: I bowed out of my own share of discussions for those very reasons. However taking time to enhance your position while refusing to respond is.... well... rude is the only word which comes to mind. I am not sure it is entirely accurate though. I am not mad nor frustrated nor angry, I am surprised: your post left me dumbfounded. Of course, nobody has the obligation to answer to people whom quote them, but to declare you will not do it is just well... I can't get the right word. It doesn't seem very respectful towards my person.

Sorry. No hard feelings on my part though. I always discuss with people willing to discuss with myself, no matter how past conversations may have gone down. I am sorry you now feel you need to filter the subjects of discussions in between our respective selves. That also wasn't my intention. 

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Is this a WoB?  I don't see any reason to suppose this is the case otherwise.  Granted, Dalinar et al will need to explore Urithiru at some point, and part three seems as good a place for a revelation as any (probably the best place, actually; part 1 allows no foreshadowing, part 2 busy with Adolin and maybe the Ghostbloods, and part 4 too late.  Part 5 and/or the epilogue would work as a cliffhanger but not as a plot-driver).  Plus, if previous books are a pattern, there won't be much time for lore-focused revelations once part 4 rolls around.  Then again, if the lore comes from the Stormfather, I could easily see it showing up in parts 1 or 2, since that's already been foreshadowed.  It's only if the revelation is going to be Urithiru-based that it would need to wait for parts 2 or 3.

This might be a fun idea for a thread: how would you structure Oathbringer?  Maybe I'll start it....

Brandon said Part 2 would mostly deal on this new novella character, it would be less action-filled than typical and it would focus on lore, world and character building. It is very nebulous what this Part 2 is exactly, how it fits within the rest of the story and how it doesn't break the pace. It has however been stated early on the main characters would not have many POV chapters within this one. Does this include Adolin? I have no idea, when he says "main cast" Brandon typically does not include Adolin, so it is unclear. It also has never been clarified which tertiary character Adolin was, so whether or not he gets POV within Part 2 is not yet known.

How would I structure SA3? Oh gee... I am not sure anyone wants to read it.

[Erklitt]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I was no aware this discussion has been anything else than friendly. I apologize if it somehow became something else, it was not my intention  

Well, then I clearly misunderstood something. Quite possible. And I apologize.
Just one clarification:

4 hours ago, maxal said:

[...] right after stating you will not bother with my own.

I said I'd read your answer, that's the opposite of 'not bothering'. The intention was, a stated, to let you have the last word. I'm sorry if that way of handling it felt disrespectful to you. Sounds like we're just prone to talk at cross-purposes. No hard feelings here either.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Erklitt

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Well, then I clearly misunderstood something. Quite possible. And I apologize.
Just one clarification:

I said I'd read your answer, that's the opposite of 'not bothering'. The intention was, a stated, to let you have the last word. I'm sorry if that way of handling it felt disrespectful to you. Sounds like we're just prone to talk at cross-purposes. No hard feelings here either.

Fair enough, though I have a hard time seeing where this went wrong. I have to go back to page 2 to see one of my responses made to you, specifically and I was actually agreeing to most of your previous post. We seem to disagree about Jasnah, but then again, some agree with me and some disagree. It felt to me as if the debate had two sides. If you could tell me where it is I wrote something which may have offended you, than I'd be able to ponder on it and see if I should have phrased it differently 

For the rest, saying you aren't comfortable in the discussion at hand is one thing: it happens to all of us, no harm done here. As I said, I have bowed out of discussions for this reason alone in the past. My problem was the subsequent argument which seemed pointless as it wouldn't be followed by any response. Why would I even answer? Just to have the last word? Why would I even want to have the last word? My goal isn't to have the last word, I don't particularly care to have the last word and, unlike the average belief, I don't always get it anyway. A discussion isn't a fight, it merely is a few people exposing their ideas and they don't always agree. People aren't going to change their mind within the scope of one thread, this very very rarely happens and it usually happens with posters who's mind was not firmly set yet. People can however read the argumentation, ponder on it, let it make its ways and then, they may change their minds. I may take weeks, months, a year even.

There are theories I firmly defended two years ago which I firmly attack now. Therefore, I'd say, I read your argumentation. In this specific case, it isn't even I technically disagree, I actually agree with most of what you are saying, but I can't currently change my perception of Jasnah due to a severe lack of interaction with the character. From my perspective, her motives aren't "pure" nor "angelic", they may have served "a greater good", but it seems one step away from becoming a "greater evil". 

Will I change my mind on Jasnah? Probably. Eventually. Once I manage to find a better angle to relate to the character or maybe she'll always carry on this cold ruthless vibe which isn't bad, but doesn't put her up there with the nicest people.

 

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Fair enough, though I have a hard time seeing where this went wrong. I have to go back to page 2 to see one of my responses made to you, specifically and I was actually agreeing to most of your previous post. We seem to disagree about Jasnah, but then again, some agree with me and some disagree. It felt to me as if the debate had two sides. If you could tell me where it is I wrote something which may have offended you, than I'd be able to ponder on it and see if I should have phrased it differently 

For the rest, saying you aren't comfortable in the discussion at hand is one thing: it happens to all of us, no harm done here. As I said, I have bowed out of discussions for this reason alone in the past. My problem was the subsequent argument which seemed pointless as it wouldn't be followed by any response. Why would I even answer? Just to have the last word? Why would I even want to have the last word? My goal isn't to have the last word, I don't particularly care to have the last word and, unlike the average belief, I don't always get it anyway. A discussion isn't a fight, it merely is a few people exposing their ideas and they don't always agree. People aren't going to change their mind within the scope of one thread, this very very rarely happens and it usually happens with posters who's mind was not firmly set yet. People can however read the argumentation, ponder on it, let it make its ways and then, they may change their minds. I may take weeks, months, a year even.

There are theories I firmly defended two years ago which I firmly attack now. Therefore, I'd say, I read your argumentation. In this specific case, it isn't even I technically disagree, I actually agree with most of what you are saying, but I can't currently change my perception of Jasnah due to a severe lack of interaction with the character. From my perspective, her motives aren't "pure" nor "angelic", they may have served "a greater good", but it seems one step away from becoming a "greater evil". 

Will I change my mind on Jasnah? Probably. Eventually. Once I manage to find a better angle to relate to the character or maybe she'll always carry on this cold ruthless vibe which isn't bad, but doesn't put her up there with the nicest people.

 

Personally why I am not continuing this discussion at this time, is regarding my repeated statement that I would prefer it when we have all the facts listed and able to reference. Otherwise it is just opinions going back and forth. This is not a personal attack, but as you stated, you remembered the scene incorrectly. It is hard to have a discussion over something when two parties cannot agree on the basest of points "what is being discussed". This thread was in regards to adolin's fate, not the legality nor morality of what Jasnah did. You mentioned that Brandon said her action was far worse than Adolin's but did not provide the WoB to back it up. So I have to take your statement at face value. You stated Jasnah did not know the thugs nor their situation. Again I either take your statement at face value, or I do my due diligence, and reference the scene. That is what I am going to do in the thread I am working on. I replied to your post regarding it in this thread, because you misrepresented the information from the scene as a reason that Jasnah is worse than Adolin. Where it becomes an issue is when it devolves into focusing over Jasnah's legality and morality, and the whole topic regarding Adolin is forgotten. That is why I am stopping. I would rather us discuss topics with facts, and then state our own opinions on it, than talk about scenes we paint in our own minds different ways. Game of Thrones is a prime example. Everyone loved the scene at blackwater with Tyrion in the show. I hated it. I hated it because The scene played out differently in my minds eye than apparently the director of the show. The scene with Jasnah played out in one way in your mind because of your own prejudice regarding the topic. Same thing with me. It is only through the examination of the scene verbatim, can we begin to derive anything to discuss. What I always find ironic about this whole subject, is I utterly and completely abhor gun violence. If it was up to me, we shouldn't be able to carry private guns at all. At its basest, that is what this scene is. A vigilante walking around with a concealed pistol, waiting for someone to start something so they can unload. But we are spoiled in this case. We know the situation. We know the internal thoughts of the actor (Jasnah). We know the history of the criminals. And we were "there" so we know how the crime took place. All these things we normally never know. Normally we go on physical evidence and witness testimony and then we guess what is the most likely. Now you could argue that Jasnah is a faulty narrator. You could say she lied about everything. There was no history of murders, the king never attempted to apprehend and then hang these individuals. But what you cannot do, is when in Shallan's head, claim she is lying to the amorphous reader when she reacts to these men bent on killing her. So there has to be some level of facts in which we can base our assertions on, otherwise what are we discussing? We went back and forth over this topic on three or four other threads now, over the same exact pieces of information regarding the same exact assertions. You stated this is not a tear the shirt issue for you, but this is clearly important enough to you to persist in the topic time and again. As it is for me. Which is why I am going through the effort the few moments each day I have, to research and put together that thread. I think you, I, and everyone would benefit from such a thread. So when I say i'm leaving the topic, it isn't because things got offensive, or problematic. It is because I feel we reached the end of the discourse at this point in time. We have both said all we can say on the subject. Now its just repetition. and I feel it takes away from whatever thread it pops up in when that subject was not the subject of the thread itself. Basically I took a very long way to say, talk to you later lol

Edited August 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Erklitt]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

If you could tell me where it is I wrote something which may have offended you, than I'd be able to ponder on it and see if I should have phrased it differently 

Pathfinder helped me clear my thoughts. I wondered what it was that had made me think this had gotten in some way 'awry' - when you asked the question I couldn't answer. I can now: My impression (and I'm aware this is subjective) is that whatever is said on the topic, you ignore it and just repeat your same statements. This is what it looks like to me: You say A, someone else says B, you repeat A, I say C, you repeat A, next person combines a stronger argument from B + C + new thought D, you repeat A... like B, C and D were never said.

I guess I projected a stubbornness and unwillingness for true discussion into this that maybe isn't there. One thing you said seems rather telling and may show we just have very different expectations:

3 hours ago, maxal said:

A discussion isn't a fight, it merely is a few people exposing their ideas and they don't always agree. People aren't going to change their mind within the scope of one thread, this very very rarely happens and it usually happens with posters who's mind was not firmly set yet.

Actually, that happens to me all the time. Maybe in your view, I am a poster who's mind isn't firmly set. But to me, that's the reason for discussing at all. I don't know the books by heart, and I often stand corrected by quotes. I don't know all WoBs, and often an opinion I held is made void by someone else quoting a WoB. I read other people's theories and at first think they are likely, or not, but during the discussion I change my mind because of some good arguments from other sharders. And I develop my own theories: some I think pretty likely, some are just crazy 'What ifs' and I put them up to discussion. Sometimes I stay with them, sometimes I don't. In fact, for me, that is the main reason for reading and posting on the shard. I think that's why I find your repetition of the same statements and arguments so frustrating. But if I understand you correctly, for you sharing in a thread is mainly 'exposing your ideas' and comparing it to others, and so repetition is natural. As I said: guess we just have very different expectations.

So, most importantly: You haven't offended me, and I'm sorry if I read a negative attitude into your way of posting that isn't there.

[one winged jhereg he/him]

Due to some things i've just noticed in Sanderson's works, I have come to the conclusion that Adolin will ultimately be the Big damnation Hero of SA, in a very bitter sweet sorta way.  Disheveled hair, check.  Important character but not considers a main character, check.  Part of a quasi love triangle, check.  It all points to Adolin being the Hero of Ages, or at least the Roshar equivalent.  Consider the microphone dropped 

[Erklitt]

31 minutes ago, one winged jhereg said:

Due to some things i've just noticed in Sanderson's works, I have come to the conclusion that Adolin will ultimately be the Big damnation Hero of SA, in a very bitter sweet sorta way.  Disheveled hair, check.  Important character but not considers a main character, check.  Part of a quasi love triangle, check.  It all points to Adolin being the Hero of Ages, or at least the Roshar equivalent.  Consider the microphone dropped 

Thanks for lifting the mood!

[Humpty he/him]

I hope Shallan comes to his rescue by blaming it on the Ghostbloods after her family is safe in the city she can draw their likeness in exact detail they have no way to escape. Then they can just carefully extract the rest of the names of the Ghostbloods and Humpty's prayer will have been answered.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

...

 

10 hours ago, Erklitt said:

...

Pahfinder, I appreciate your efforts in trying to turn the conversation into a coherent thread: I am looking forward to read it. Here is the WoB in question which I didn't post because I assumed (wrongly) everyone knew about it as it is a rather old one (May 2014). Brandon does think Adolin's actions aren't as dark as Jasnah which is why I was always puzzled most readers saw it the other way around. 

I'd also point out he used the words "ramifications" and not "consequences". He also hinted it will be... complicated. 

QUESTION

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.

QUESTION

Will it have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, there are definitely ramifications. How it's handled, there's lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

As for the rest, I am happy to go back to the intended subject and to leave Jasnah on the ice. I do not feel comfortable when others read my ideas as confrontational or antagonists: based on those last two posts I have considered bowing out myself from the conversation. I am not entirely sure I shouldn't. I effectively do spend a lot of times exposing my ideas and how I read the story: others are always free to disagree but it takes a lot to make me bulge from my current positions. It isn't impossible, but it is hard work. In the end, yes I often repeat myself, but each posts has its own flavor and context or this is how I tend to see it.

 

[Argel he/him]

Brandon said "personally", which sounds like it was written to be open to interpretation. As I mentioned above, I think the problem is he snapped. If he planned it out, it would be much less bothersome to me. Though like Brandon, I think believe Sadeas was a problem that needed to be dealt with, hence my comment about whether it was honorable to let Sadeas get away with so much (also above).

The question was "With how it was handled?" (past tense) but Brandon mentions "how it's handled" (present tense) so Brandon could mean how the murder is handled in a general sense, not in how Adolin committed the murder. That leaves all kinds of possibilities. Maybe Adolin has killed so many times in battle that it doesn't phase him as much as we expect but the political ramifications are severe. O the exact opposite. Or something completely different....

11 hours ago, maxal said:

Here is the WoB in question which I didn't post because I assumed (wrongly) everyone knew about it as it is a rather old one (May 2014).

There are a lot of new members, not all of them lurkers for many years. If anything, we seem to have an influx of new, non-lurkers and several long time members have gone silent (e.g. Argent, Kurkistan, Voidus ), so it feels like we've lost a "sanity" check so to speak.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Argel

[vividox]

Hey guys, really stupid question (and I haven't read WoR for awhile so I could be missing a detail that answers my question for me):

 

Are we sure that Adolin gets caught? They were in a relatively isolated spot in a place they'd never been to before. Is it possible Adolin could literally get away with murder here?

[DSC01 he/him]

No, we're not sure that he's going to be found out. I, for one, suspect that it will not become public knowledge. If it does, it will be a huge scandal, I'm sure, and it will put Elhokar in a very difficult position (and probably Dalinar, too). But I don't see that working for the plot. It would be a huge distraction, unless those calling for Adolin's blood were quickly stomped on by Dalinar putting his foot down and declaring that he's the boss now. The story does seem to be leaning towards Dalinar taking total control as a benevolent dictator, but I don't think that Adolin killing Sadeas being what takes us there is something that works very well.

I think that the biggest impact that Sadeas's death will have will result from Ialai's reaction. She is sure to cause some huge problems when she retaliates, and she may not even retaliate against the right person. In fact, I would wager that Jasnah would be her most likely target. When she reappears, Ialai will probably assume that her supposed death was part of a scheme of some sort, Jasnah being the most conniving of Sadeas's enemies. 

I can see that being how Adolin's guilt comes out: Jasnah is targeted by Ialai's assassins, and Adolin eventually feels terrible enough about it that he confesses his deed.

[Argel he/him]

Sadeas was with his wife and some advisors just before it happened though, so we do not know how far away they were or how soon the body will be found. Adolin threw the knife over the edge to a platform below (I think it landed in the equivalent of bushes below) and took his bloodied cuffs off (it doesn't say what he did with these). Presumably Sadeas's body will be found later that day, but that's probably the only safe guess we can make. Note also that Adolin was recovering from injuries at the time (from Szeth IIRC, but if not, the Parshendi).

[DSC01 he/him]

I was thinking that it doesn't really matter when they find his body, in terms of whether or not Ialai will blame Jasnah. She would suspect Jasnah of sending assassins, not of doing the deed herself.

[Pathfinder]

So to clarify a few things, first, although it is a little vague, it appears that the blade Adolin tossed out the window was Oathbringer. He kept his knife, and scratched out the marks he made on the wall with his shardblade. Ialai was not that far ahead so I think they would notice Sadeas's absences shortly, though Adolin appeared to have enough time to leave the crime scene, and appear far enough away that the scouts would think he was in that new area all along. So it appears he still has the bloody cufflinks, and murder weapon on his person for later disposal. As it is somewhat ambiguous, I have included the passage below and bolded the pertinent portions:

Sadeas shook for a moment, blood pooling around the blade as Adolin worked it to be certain. A second later, a shardblade appeared beside Sadeas – his father’s Shardblade. Sadeas was dead. Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. Stormed. Had he just done that? Had he just murdered a highprince? Dazed, he stared at that weapon. Neither man had summoned his Blade for the fight. The weapons might be worth a fortune, but they’d do less good than a rock in such a close – quarters fight. Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out the window, dropping it down into one of the platerlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there.

After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along.

 

So it looks like when referring to a shardblade, it gets a capital B, which is why I believe it was Oathbringer he dropped, rather than the knife. Since it does not specifically say he picked up the murder weapon, it could still be in Sadeas's eye. But I do not think so, as he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, and it did not note what he did with them. I do not think he would just leave them on the floor as that would aid in identifying him. So although it does not explicitly state it, I am personally leaning that he still has the bloody cuffs, and knife on his person till he can find a better way to dispose of them, and left oathbringer where it was to possibly grab it later, since he remarks to himself that it should be safe there. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Pathfinder

[DSC01 he/him]

You know, reading that now, it occurs to me that Adolin probably intends to retrieve Oathbringer and stash it somewhere. I had always read him ditching it as sort of a panicked reaction. My thinking was that he freaked out, threw away the Shardblade, then calmed down a bit and covered up the evidence. Looking at that again, getting rid of Oathbringer was part of him calming down and obscuring the evidence. To be fair, it isn't completely insane to read someone throwing a Shardblade out a window as a panicked course of action.