Kaladin is probably bipolar

[Patrick]

All spoilers, all the time!

 

I am just finishing my second read through of both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance and it's occurring to me that Kaladin almost certainly has a chemical imbalance of some sort, most likely bipolar disorder.  There are actually several different types of bipolar and he'd most likely suffer from a rapid cycling version, which would keep him out of long periods of dark dangerous depressions.

Couldn't even guess if he was written from the start with the idea that he behaves as a person with the disorder would or if it's just coincidental. 

I cherry picked put some of the major symptoms as they apply to him from specific interactions and actions in the book.

Depressive/dysthymic episodes. Symptoms of the depressive/dysthymic phase include difficulty making decisions, guilt, self-criticism, low self-esteem, pessimism, self-destructive thinking, apathy, hopelessness, helplessness and irritability. Also common are quick temper, poor judgment, lack of motivation, social withdrawal, self-neglect, fatigue.^[9]

Hypomanic episodes. Symptoms of the hypomanic episode include unusually good mood or cheerfulness (euphoria), extreme optimism, inflated self-esteem, rapid speech, racing thoughts, aggressive or hostile behavior, lack of consideration for others, agitation, massively increased physical activity, risky behavior, spending sprees, increased drive to perform or achieve goals, decreased need for sleep.

 

Thinking about his flip flop from being ready to drop himself into a chasm, to driving himself beyond the limits of human endurance to get the bridge crew to follow him.

Also his near constant moodiness in WoR is another big indicator.  

 

Thought it would be fun to discuss in any event.

[king of nowhere]

kaladin has been stated canonically to suffer from depression. A depression that he has to fight back every day. people with real life depression issues praised brandon for so well depicting someone suffering from that illness. I don't know if it could fit more with bipolar disorder because I'm not an expert in the field.

[CaptainRyan]

Also, I believe it has been confirmed that Kaladin suffers from Seasonal Affective Disorder as well. Good catch on this @Patrick!

[tennischamp5]

When I first read the books, I considered the possibility as well, but I think he's more on the Major Depressive Disorder end of the spectrum, with the stormlight explaining away his "hypomanic" periods. I mean, one could argue that just taking in and holding stormlight makes one more manic/hypomanic in of itself  

 

To be fair though, with the world they live in... as a radiant who can suck in stormlight, what radiant wouldn't have seasonal affective disorder during the weeping?

Edited July 15, 2016 by tennischamp5

[Stormgate]

Yes, a Radiant would probably be disappointed by the lack of highstorms, but Kaladin has never liked the Weeping. However, he feels very differently about highstorms.

[Erunion]

It's pretty clear that Kaladin suffers from chronic, severe depression, and also from SAD (which is the best acronym for a medical condition I have ever heard of).

Kaladin doesn't appear to be manic, except when he is using stormlight to fuel/induce a manic state, which it very clearly does. Note, I say Kaladin is using stormlight, because I want to draw your attention to it as a drug - he can sometimes treat stormlight as a self-medicating narcotic. Muhc of his moodiness in WOR and his fall into further depression could ALSO be considered him suffering from withdrawal, as he has been using stormlight as a crutch to survive his depression without taking steps to properly deal with his circumstances/etc. that inspire and worsen his depression (note how in the first sections of WOR he alternates between being engaged and focused with Stormlight to being depressed and moody without it). 
 

[Stormgate]

Not having Stormlight seems to have many of the symptoms of running out of pewter after keeping it going for a while.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, tennischamp5 said:

When I first read the books, I considered the possibility as well, but I think he's more on the Major Depressive Disorder end of the spectrum, with the stormlight explaining away his "hypomanic" periods.

that got me thinking: does stormlight heal depression? is it enough of a disease for stomrlight to recognize and fight it? because that would make kaladin twice as manic when he took in stormlight: once because of increased power, and once for suddenly not being depressed anymore.

[maxal]

Strange questioning here, why are we saying Kaladin suffer from severe depression? Wouldn't severe depression prevent an individual from taking part in every day task? Wouldn't severe depression prevent Kaladin from even getting up from his bed to fulfill his duties as a guardsman? Would someone with severe depression even bother to make demands and to express an opinion?

I am certainly no expert on depression and the only real-life experience I have with it involved someone who couldn't even function, by function I mean getting out of bed, going to school, getting dress, taking care of his/herself, etc. So Kaladin doesn't exactly correlates with my own experience and while I do understand this illness is lived differently for everyone, he still doesn't strike me as this far down the spectrum.

Therefore, from my perspective, Kaladin's depression seems very mild and mostly fueled by his terrible life experience than anything else. He mostly feels it whenever he dwindles on his past, his hatred of lighteyes and his lack of power to change things for what he perceived would be better.

This being said, it could be my perspective is terribly wrong and I am severely negatively biased when it comes to depression due to here-by mention life experience. I can admit as much, so I mean to improve my understanding. Why is it severe depression and not a mild one? What is the difference?

 

[WeiryWriter]

18 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

that got me thinking: does stormlight heal depression? is it enough of a disease for stomrlight to recognize and fight it? because that would make kaladin twice as manic when he took in stormlight: once because of increased power, and once for suddenly not being depressed anymore.

We have WoB that stormlight cannot "heal" depression.  It is a part of Kaladin's personality.

[Erunion]

50 minutes ago, maxal said:

Why is it severe depression and not a mild one? What is the difference?

 

That is a storming good question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. 
I will, however, make an attempt. (This is the internet! What else did you expect ) 

Mild depression is, from my experience, considerably less than what Kaladin deals with. He deals with prolonged bouts of moderate depression, and occasionally dips into severe depression - look at slave Kaladin, or Kaladin when he's contemplating suicide - the Kaladin who had given up on life and was a barely functioning automaton, moving only to avoid pain. A man completely without hope. As he so succinctly put it, The Wretch. I'd say that's severe depression.
When he is functioning, working to rescue his squad/etc., he has occasional bouts of depression, followed by relative normalcy (as he was in hearthstone). This is, AFAIK, mild-moderate depression. 
What you're describing seems to be about as bad as depression can get. It's also closely akin to what Kaladin was becoming as the Wretch, only Kaladin had someone forcing him into activity (Gaz, slavedrivers/etc.).

So just for clarity - what you're describing from your experience is something I would call 'critical depression' - severe depression that has advanced so far (for whatever reason) that the subject is completely non-functional.

Now, obviously, I'm not a medical professional. I only have a vague idea of what I'm talking about - but I know enough to know that I know nothing
Any medical professionals on here who can weigh in on this? 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Erunion
For clarity

[tennischamp5]

52 minutes ago, Erunion said:

That is a storming good question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. 
I will, however, make an attempt. (This is the internet! What else did you expect ) 

Mild depression is, from my experience, considerably less than what Kaladin deals with. He deals with prolonged bouts of moderate depression, and occasionally dips into severe depression - look at slave Kaladin, or Kaladin when he's contemplating suicide - the Kaladin who had given up on life and was a barely functioning automaton, moving only to avoid pain. A man completely without hope. As he so succinctly put it, The Wretch. I'd say that's severe depression.
When he is functioning, working to rescue his squad/etc., he has occasional bouts of depression, followed by relative normalcy (as he was in hearthstone). This is, AFAIK, mild-moderate depression. 
What you're describing seems to be about as bad as depression can get. It's also closely akin to what Kaladin was becoming as the Wretch, only Kaladin had someone forcing him into activity (Gaz, slavedrivers/etc.).

So just for clarity - what you're describing from your experience is something I would call 'critical depression' - severe depression that has advanced so far (for whatever reason) that the subject is completely non-functional.

Now, obviously, I'm not a medical professional. I only have a vague idea of what I'm talking about - but I know enough to know that I know nothing
Any medical professionals on here who can weigh in on this? 

Not yet a medical professional here, but I'm in my final year of medical school (~12 months until I get the MD) and just coming off two months on inpatient psychiatry. You're pretty much spot on. DSM-V (the latest version of the definitive psychiatry manual) defines a diagnostic criteria for major depressive disorder (At least five of the following for a period of two weeks or greater - Depressed Mood, Decreased Interest, Weight Loss/Gain, Sleep issues, Psychomotor Agitation, Fatigue, Worthlessness, Concentration Issues, and Suicidality), but oftentimes in the clinic, mild/moderate/severe depends on symptoms and the severity of functionality in the patient. Different hospitals and clinics do it differently, but what we did in the hospital to decide between mild/mod/severe was some version of the following:

First Group of Symptoms: Depressed Mood - Loss of Interest in Activites - Reduced Energy

Second Group of Symptoms: Guilt - Sleep Issues - Appetite Issues - Suicidality/Homicidality - Pessimistic Thoughts - Decreased Self-Esteem

Mild = 1+ from the first group w/ 1-2 from the second group and overall functional impairment seems "mild"

Moderate = 1+ from the first group w/ 2-3 from the second group and overall functional impairment seems "moderate"

Severe = All of the first group w/ 3+ in the second group and either severe impairment, psychosis, recent suicidality, or intent to harm self/others.

 

It wasn't a hard and fast rule, but rather general guidelines. In addition, we'd also evaluate functional status via asking about their lifestyle - social stressors, relationships, work, academic performance, etc.

 

 

Kaladin could definitely fit into severe, but one could also make a case for moderate when he's not frankly suicidal (which honestly may be less about depression and more about the terrible situation he was in).

[maxal]

 

2 hours ago, Erunion said:

That is a storming good question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. 
I will, however, make an attempt. (This is the internet! What else did you expect ) 

Mild depression is, from my experience, considerably less than what Kaladin deals with. He deals with prolonged bouts of moderate depression, and occasionally dips into severe depression - look at slave Kaladin, or Kaladin when he's contemplating suicide - the Kaladin who had given up on life and was a barely functioning automaton, moving only to avoid pain. A man completely without hope. As he so succinctly put it, The Wretch. I'd say that's severe depression.
When he is functioning, working to rescue his squad/etc., he has occasional bouts of depression, followed by relative normalcy (as he was in hearthstone). This is, AFAIK, mild-moderate depression. 
What you're describing seems to be about as bad as depression can get. It's also closely akin to what Kaladin was becoming as the Wretch, only Kaladin had someone forcing him into activity (Gaz, slavedrivers/etc.).

So just for clarity - what you're describing from your experience is something I would call 'critical depression' - severe depression that has advanced so far (for whatever reason) that the subject is completely non-functional.

Now, obviously, I'm not a medical professional. I only have a vague idea of what I'm talking about - but I know enough to know that I know nothing
Any medical professionals on here who can weigh in on this? 

Yes but part of my problem with Kaladin lies with the fact he has good reason to be depressed: he was made a slave and he had no hope for any future whatsoever than to die carrying bridge under a volley of arrows. Anyone would have been severely depressed if put into the same situation, it strikes more to me as a depression triggered by abnormal event than true depression which, still from my personal experience, does not require any abnormal trigger. It would take a rare person indeed for not to be depressed after being what Kaladin went through, so how can it be clinical? Shouldn't clinical depression exist outside such events? Kaladin also never gets as depressed once removed from the terrible situation he was plunged in.

My real-life subject perhaps had causes for depression but it nowhere approached the ordeal Kaladin was forced to live. I have/had no idea which level of depression was involved, as I said it wasn't something I personally dealt with admirably.

1 hour ago, tennischamp5 said:

Not yet a medical professional here, but I'm in my final year of medical school (~12 months until I get the MD) and just coming off two months on inpatient psychiatry. You're pretty much spot on. DSM-V (the latest version of the definitive psychiatry manual) defines a diagnostic criteria for major depressive disorder (At least five of the following for a period of two weeks or greater - Depressed Mood, Decreased Interest, Weight Loss/Gain, Sleep issues, Psychomotor Agitation, Fatigue, Worthlessness, Concentration Issues, and Suicidality), but oftentimes in the clinic, mild/moderate/severe depends on symptoms and the severity of functionality in the patient. Different hospitals and clinics do it differently, but what we did in the hospital to decide between mild/mod/severe was some version of the following:

First Group of Symptoms: Depressed Mood - Loss of Interest in Activites - Reduced Energy

Second Group of Symptoms: Guilt - Sleep Issues - Appetite Issues - Suicidality/Homicidality - Pessimistic Thoughts - Decreased Self-Esteem

Mild = 1+ from the first group w/ 1-2 from the second group and overall functional impairment seems "mild"

Moderate = 1+ from the first group w/ 2-3 from the second group and overall functional impairment seems "moderate"

Severe = All of the first group w/ 3+ in the second group and either severe impairment, psychosis, recent suicidality, or intent to harm self/others.

 

It wasn't a hard and fast rule, but rather general guidelines. In addition, we'd also evaluate functional status via asking about their lifestyle - social stressors, relationships, work, academic performance, etc.

 

 

Kaladin could definitely fit into severe, but one could also make a case for moderate when he's not frankly suicidal (which honestly may be less about depression and more about the terrible situation he was in).

How does Kaladin fit into severe? He was suicidal once and it was through extraordinary circumstances. He doesn't have psychosis nor does he intend to harm others. He doesn't have sleep issues, nor appetite issues, nor decrease self-esteem... He has pessimistic thoughts, depressed mood and maybe temporary reduced energy levels.

Still be reading this, I'd put him into mild... so what am I missing? I can't rank his one suicidal attempt as a symptom of depression: he had NOTHING left to live for. All he was doing was waiting for his death: it was pointless. Anyone would have preferred to go down on his own terms as opposed to being slaughtered carrying a bridge.

[thegatorgirl00]

50 minutes ago, maxal said:

How does Kaladin fit into severe? He was suicidal once and it was through extraordinary circumstances. He doesn't have psychosis nor does he intend to harm others. He doesn't have sleep issues, nor appetite issues, nor decrease self-esteem... He has pessimistic thoughts, depressed mood and maybe temporary reduced energy levels.

Still be reading this, I'd put him into mild... so what am I missing? I can't rank his one suicidal attempt as a symptom of depression: he had NOTHING left to live for. All he was doing was waiting for his death: it was pointless. Anyone would have preferred to go down on his own terms as opposed to being slaughtered carrying a bridge.

Just a normal, non-doctor reading here. 

From the list, even without his suicide attempt, I would say that Kaladin has depressive mood, loss of interest, reduced energy, guilt, and pessimistic thoughts. That's three from the first group and two from the second group, which seems to me like enough symptoms to get labelled moderate. 

If a professional has a different opinion, I would be happy to hear it. 

[Jondesu]

Not a professional, but a sufferer. I have what's classified as Major Depression (which is the term @tennischamp5 used), but as Moderate to Severe Depression. The two refer to different things: major depressive disorder indicates how long you're depressed, and the fact that you don't have big mood swings, but instead long periods of depression, in between which you're simply back to more normal. It's sometimes called unipolar depression, though that's a rare term, but it denotes that it differs from bipolar depression by not having a swing back to the opposite end of the spectrum.

jW

[maxal]

8 hours ago, Jondesu said:

 

[tennischamp5]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

 

Yes but part of my problem with Kaladin lies with the fact he has good reason to be depressed: he was made a slave and he had no hope for any future whatsoever than to die carrying bridge under a volley of arrows. Anyone would have been severely depressed if put into the same situation, it strikes more to me as a depression triggered by abnormal event than true depression which, still from my personal experience, does not require any abnormal trigger. It would take a rare person indeed for not to be depressed after being what Kaladin went through, so how can it be clinical? Shouldn't clinical depression exist outside such events? Kaladin also never gets as depressed once removed from the terrible situation he was plunged in.

My real-life subject perhaps had causes for depression but it nowhere approached the ordeal Kaladin was forced to live. I have/had no idea which level of depression was involved, as I said it wasn't something I personally dealt with admirably.

How does Kaladin fit into severe? He was suicidal once and it was through extraordinary circumstances. He doesn't have psychosis nor does he intend to harm others. He doesn't have sleep issues, nor appetite issues, nor decrease self-esteem... He has pessimistic thoughts, depressed mood and maybe temporary reduced energy levels.

Still be reading this, I'd put him into mild... so what am I missing? I can't rank his one suicidal attempt as a symptom of depression: he had NOTHING left to live for. All he was doing was waiting for his death: it was pointless. Anyone would have preferred to go down on his own terms as opposed to being slaughtered carrying a bridge.

Oh I agree - Kaladin has ample reason to be the way he is. Whether it's depression or life circumstances or some combination of both - who's to say? Short of actually seeing him in clinic, it's a bit tough to stick any sort of diagnosis on him - never been a huge fan of labels myself - more important to find an effective treatment rather than worry about what to call it. Especially since we're readers, all we really get is what Brandon chooses to share with us about Kaladin. And objectively - he's definitely got many of the depressive criteria. Whether it's mild/mod/severe shouldn't matter terribly much for the sake of the story.

 

@Jondesu Great points! I haven't heard it called unipolar depression in a while... a lot of the older textbooks used to refer to it that way (makes a lot more sense honestly) but since DSM-V, it's mainly been MDD and Bipolar I/II.

 

I always found it... interesting... that stormlight seems to induce manic symptoms  There's quite a few antidepressants on the market that have mania as (side) effects... Pharmaceutical grade stormlight in a capsule mayhaps?   

Edited July 16, 2016 by tennischamp5

[Patrick]

I think the reason I feel so firm that he fits into Bipolar III (Cyclothymania) are the times when he had no real access to Stormlight but pushed himself to go far about and beyond what you might think a normal person could achieve.

The instance where he first promises Syl that he'll try with the bridge crew and goes out on his own, grabs a big chunk of lumber and starts running with it all day, after little to no sleep and coming off the edge of a suicidal inclination.  He switched so fast and so completely from about to kill himself to pushing himself to the limits of human endurance that it strikes me that he's got more than just depression going on.

Also think of the cases of extreme optimism Kaladin has had, which often lead to disaster.  He gets so convinced of himself and his idea's that he absolutely will not consider that he could be wrong, until people die. Manic doesn't just manifest in acting outwardly impetuous, it also shows very strongly in thought patterns.  Challenging Amaram after the duel, his multiple failed slave revolts, the sideways bridge run, leading Shallan through the chasms.

Being bipolar myself I am probably over identifying a bit

 

[Patrick]

I do try to focus on the times when Kal didn't have access to Stormlight in any meaningful way and how he behaved.

Having experienced it I can tell you going manic is kind of like having a super power, a super power that eventually stabs you in the back.  You think faster, come to conclusions, make intuitive leaps, work harder and faster.  It's different for everyone but I also get huge bursts of physical power as well.  Hitting the gym and tearing up heavy weights with no supplements or anything to help me along, just a 'can do' attitude that can leave others in the dust.

Of course you eventually find yourself yelling at your boss over a perceived insult from weeks ago that he doesn't even remember...

[Jondesu]

2 hours ago, Patrick said:

The instance where he first promises Syl that he'll try with the bridge crew and goes out on his own, grabs a big chunk of lumber and starts running with it all day, after little to no sleep and coming off the edge of a suicidal inclination.  He switched so fast and so completely from about to kill himself to pushing himself to the limits of human endurance that it strikes me that he's got more than just depression going on.

I haven't looked into it, but does that really count as mania?  I remember when I made the decision not to kill myself; it unlocked something allowing me to be more free, and I definitely made some big changes following that, but I wouldn't have called it mania.  Kaladin's actions seem more like a man who just decided he had a purpose, rather than mania specifically.  I'm not sure if that may just fall under that definition, however.

jW

[Erklitt]

Having followed these forums for months before joining, this is one thing that always struck me as unusual, and very valuable: people identifying with the main characters' psychological problems, and drawing strength from them. My own case is a minor one: I know depressive moods and can identify with Kaladin to an extent, but I'm aware I'm a 'light case' in comparison. But I definitely appreciate the way Brandon is exploring those depths with a tact and depth of empathy that is truly unusual.

I'm not very interested in labeling and defining the exact extent of a person's 'weirdness'. I'm more interested in individuals and their way of coping with issues. And there I find Brandon's work to be truly inspirational. Anything beyond this statement, I leave to your individual interpretation...

[cdotdot]

On 7/15/2016 at 8:30 PM, maxal said:

 

Yes but part of my problem with Kaladin lies with the fact he has good reason to be depressed: he was made a slave and he had no hope for any future whatsoever than to die carrying bridge under a volley of arrows. Anyone would have been severely depressed if put into the same situation, it strikes more to me as a depression triggered by abnormal event than true depression which, still from my personal experience, does not require any abnormal trigger. It would take a rare person indeed for not to be depressed after being what Kaladin went through, so how can it be clinical? Shouldn't clinical depression exist outside such events? Kaladin also never gets as depressed once removed from the terrible situation he was plunged in.

My real-life subject perhaps had causes for depression but it nowhere approached the ordeal Kaladin was forced to live. I have/had no idea which level of depression was involved, as I said it wasn't something I personally dealt with admirably.

How does Kaladin fit into severe? He was suicidal once and it was through extraordinary circumstances. He doesn't have psychosis nor does he intend to harm others. He doesn't have sleep issues, nor appetite issues, nor decrease self-esteem... He has pessimistic thoughts, depressed mood and maybe temporary reduced energy levels.

Still be reading this, I'd put him into mild... so what am I missing? I can't rank his one suicidal attempt as a symptom of depression: he had NOTHING left to live for. All he was doing was waiting for his death: it was pointless. Anyone would have preferred to go down on his own terms as opposed to being slaughtered carrying a bridge.

Super late to this discussion, but if you take a look back through Kaladin's memories of his childhood and growing up, you'll notice a pattern of at least mild depression and definitely of SAD. This was before his family was under attack by the city lord. He was already showing signs of depression, with no underlying cause.

[Jungah]

6 hours ago, Kevin27 said:

<post hidden by a moderator>

I'm not trying to shoot you down or be rude or anything, but where did you get this information? I didn't think that depression had much to do with your social status. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6778ddd57480 

To quote from the above article, "More than 5 percent of the population suffers from depression in the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe and the Caribbean." Later on: "While they can’t conclusively explain why depression is so much more prevalent and damaging in some countries than in others, they have a few theories. Those include conflict, which pushes depression rates up, and the presence of other serious epidemics, which makes depression less of a social burden relative to other public health issues." 

In this case, wouldn't his depression be more likely, because he's going through a heck of a lot of conflict?

Again, not trying to pick a fight; just wondering where your claim about first-world depression came from.

[Weltall]

Since the original post has apparently been righteously smote by a mod, I doubt any response is forthcoming.

Since the topic is alive again, it seems relevant to share the essay that Brandon included in Altered Perceptions, which wasn't available in an easily-linkable form when this topic was started. He discusses his own experience (at one remove) with the subject of depression and how it's one of the two biggest things that shaped the Kaladin we know compared to the character in TWoK Prime. It's short but a very good read.