Sadeas and Secret Societies

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

So, as Gavilar lay dying, he suspected Thaidakar, Restares and Sadeas of being behind the murder. Thaidakar and Restares are bith involved in Secret Societies, something that Gavilar also was. That is why Sadeas name popping up there is suspicious. Either Gavilar just suspects him because he's an oily prick, or because Gavilar knew that he was part of one of the Societies.

Another thing about Sadeas is that he knows who Amaram truly is, something few others seems to know. Might this be a lead to show that he was part of the Sons of Honor?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 minutes ago, Axies the Survivor said:

So, as Gavilar lay dying, he suspected Thaidakar, Restares and Sadeas of being behind the murder. Thaidakar and Restares are bith involved in Secret Societies, something that Gavilar also was. That is why Sadeas name popping up there is suspicious. Either Gavilar just suspects him because he's an oily prick, or because Gavilar knew that he was part of one of the Societies.

Another thing about Sadeas is that he knows who Amaram truly is, something few others seems to know. Might this be a lead to show that he was part of the Sons of Honor?

I think your argument is compelling but, for literary purposes, I feel like it does not work. We had a few Sadeas PoVs in Words of Radiance and, iirc, he never thought about those societies. I feel like it would be a bit strange for him to be a member and never once think about it. 

I think Sadeas knows that Amaram is a snake because he was worked closely with him for a long time - Amaram is a lesser lighteyes in Sadeas' own princedom. Sadeas has had plenty of time to see that Amaram simply maintains a good public reputation.

On the other hand, I could be totally wrong and Sadeas could have been an active member of one of the societies. I guess we will just have to RAFO.  

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

I think your argument is compelling but, for literary purposes, I feel like it does not work. We had a few Sadeas PoVs in Words of Radiance and, iirc, he never thought about those societies. I feel like it would be a bit strange for him to be a member and never once think about it.

I thought of this, and it is probably the greatest argument against the theory. However, it is possible he left for some reason. We dont spend much time in Sadeas head, after all, and Sanderson has hidden things in other POVs. Shallan, for example, did nor reveal the how her father died until the end of WoK. However, during that time, you actually understood sje eas hiding something. That feeling never came with Saddy (Sadeas).

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Just now, Axies the Survivor said:

I thought of this, and it is probably the greatest argument against the theory. However, it is possible he left for some reason. We dont spend much time in Sadeas head, after all, and Sanderson has hidden things in other POVs. Shallan, for example, did nor reveal the how her father died until the end of WoK. However, during that time, you actually understood sje eas hiding something. That feeling never came with Saddy (Sadeas).

I agree. It is possible that Sanderson hid some of this information from us despite giving us Sadeas viewpoints. I, personally, rate it as "unlikely" but I am not known for skillfully guessing what Sanderson is going to do haha. If you turn out to be right then let me be the first to congratulate you on your foresight and awesomeness! Congrats!  

[Quiver he/him]

10 hours ago, Axies the Survivor said:

So, as Gavilar lay dying, he suspected Thaidakar, Restares and Sadeas of being behind the murder. Thaidakar and Restares are bith involved in Secret Societies, something that Gavilar also was. That is why Sadeas name popping up there is suspicious. Either Gavilar just suspects him because he's an oily prick, or because Gavilar knew that he was part of one of the Societies.

Another thing about Sadeas is that he knows who Amaram truly is, something few others seems to know. Might this be a lead to show that he was part of the Sons of Honor?

I don't think this will be the case, but can you imagine Dalinar's reaction if it were? His brother, and two of his former allies, we're in one secret society, his bodyguard and future daughter-in-law were secret Knights Radiant, his son is a Truthwatcher, Wit is...Wit.

"Is there anyone around here who is NOT a part of a secret society? Anyone?!"

[Yata he/him]

I always saw Sadeas as one of those people who have really limited knowledge of the whole situation. It was the arcetype of an Alethi's Nobles, just a powerhungry warlover man.

He had no time or interesting in anything more than richness and prestige. Like a ignorant bully who ignores the events out of his school.

[kenod]

1 hour ago, Quiver said:

I don't think this will be the case, but can you imagine Dalinar's reaction if it were? His brother, and two of his former allies, we're in one secret society, his bodyguard and future daughter-in-law were secret Knights Radiant, his son is a Truthwatcher, Wit is...Wit.

"Is there anyone around here who is NOT a part of a secret society? Anyone?!"

I think everybody who knows a bit about SA get this feeling.

[DreamEternal]

6 hours ago, Quiver said:

I don't think this will be the case, but can you imagine Dalinar's reaction if it were? His brother, and two of his former allies, we're in one secret society, his bodyguard and future daughter-in-law were secret Knights Radiant, his son is a Truthwatcher, Wit is...Wit.

"Is there anyone around here who is NOT a part of a secret society? Anyone?!"

...Adolin?

 

...for now, that is.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

While I suspect Sadeas was not part of a secret society I do wonder about Ialai (his wife). I would not be surprised if she ended up being connected to a secret society in some fashion. 

[SweetLift she/her]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

While I suspect Sadeas was not part of a secret society I do wonder about Ialai (his wife). I would not be surprised if she ended up being connected to a secret society in some fashion. 

For a while I thought maybe she (Lalai) was Iytl, until Shallon saw that her mask was growing into her face (and I read BoM) but she could  obviously still be in a society. When Gavilar talks to Szeth he says he expected him. When he says Sadeas to Szeth, he then says "I thought" -- as though he was confused or possible hesitant to speak his friend's name -- he was going to say something else. Which I think would have been "that I could trust him".  As far as Amaram and Sadeas, i think that Amaram did something bad to Jasnah (based on the way that she hates Amaram and she dislikes her - no real proof) and Sadeas knows about it, possibly even protected him.  

[Eccentric Hero he/him]

3 hours ago, SweetLift said:

Lalai

Ialai actually starts with a capital i. It throws a lot of people off. Just remember that her name is symmetrical.

[dvoraen]

And here's where I drive-by with my (probably unlikely) headturner:

 

 

A Voidbringer (Unmade?) inhabiting the corpse and things end up going that route. >.>  That'd make it a secret society... right?  Sort of?

I say unlikely because I don't see this happening inside Urithiru itself short of a stowaway (or maybe a black sphere?)

Edited June 22, 2016 by dvoraen

[SamsonSeaBorn]

What about the ardentia there's the scene in my mind where Adolin is talking to an ardent about Dalanars visions and he made mention that while Dalanar was his master he is not his religious superior. Is the core ruling element of the Vorin church the sons of honor or is the SoH just a weapon for the church.  There's also the scene where Dalanar is talking to the ardent right before the saddle reveal and at the end he tells Dalanar "we're with you." Implying that those in the know within the church are 1 keeping tabs on Dalanar and 2 supporters of what he is trying to and then finally manages to accomplish.

[Lopens_Cousin]

I think Sadeas was too much into the "here and now" of Alethkar to be involved in a secret society with some greater agenda. He summarily dismisses Dalinar's quest for some greater good and thinks only of consolidating power in terms of the conventional structure of Alethi society. He's a schemer, for certain, but his schemes are bounded by designs on the princedoms. He doesn't think about any evil or turmoil to come, no reason to unite Alethkar other than to grab power. Perhaps he would have been involved in a society if he thought it would grant him opportunity to gain power, but I don't think he would have been able to accept what he would see as the mysticism those societies believe in. He probably didn't even really believe in the Heraldic Epochs.

Sadeas was a powermonger with a simple conception of the world. Ghostbloods and Sons of Honor would, I think, have seemed silly to him.

[DreamEternal]

9 hours ago, lopens_cousin said:

Sadeas was a powermonger with a simple conception of the world. Ghostbloods and Sons of Honor would, I think, have seemed silly to him.

Maybe not the Ghostbloods, as they are a group of cutthroats that recruit from the criminal underworld, exactly the kind of people Sadeas would find fun to hang around with.

But I don't think he was one of them. An ally, or contact? Of course, the Ghostbloods had all reasons in the world to aproach him ans his wife. Actually, if someone is a secret ghostblood, I am quite sure Ialai is our best bet.

[Argel he/him]

I'm having a hard time reconciling that whole "taking care of our own" thing the Ghostbloods have going with Sadeas. Even Ialai seems like a stretch. Maybe having ties to the Ghostbloods or being used by them, but mroe than that is hard to image. Ialai may be ripe for recruiting now that Sadeas is dead though.

[Lopens_Cousin]

7 hours ago, DreamEternal said:

Maybe not the Ghostbloods, as they are a group of cutthroats that recruit from the criminal underworld, exactly the kind of people Sadeas would find fun to hang around with.

But I don't think he was one of them. An ally, or contact? Of course, the Ghostbloods had all reasons in the world to aproach him ans his wife. Actually, if someone is a secret ghostblood, I am quite sure Ialai is our best bet.

 

Do you think that Saddeus would have then seen them as beneath him? I can't imagine him throwing in with dark eyes. Especially in the case of the ghostbloods where eye color is not a symbol of status. He would have had to accept being equal, probably subordinate to Mraize. I mean, he's certainly not above using them, and I think it's possible he knew of some of the secret organizations, most likely the Sons, given how he was familiar with Amaram's nefariousness. But like I said, he only cared about consolidating power in Alethkar, maybe more of Roshar, but the Ghostbloods and Sons don't seem to care specifically about power and I don't think their goals would have aligned.

Ialai def has some ghostblood potential, though. It's not clear what she cares about, and if she just gets off on the intrigue, then the Ghostbloods will probably seem very attractive to her.

[Argel he/him]

The problem for me is I do not see why the Ghostbloods would find her worthy of joining their ranks. I think there is too much concern about baggage, trust, etc. there. to overcome. Sadeas' death may change that if she has no political future.

[Lopens_Cousin]

12 hours ago, Argel said:

The problem for me is I do not see why the Ghostbloods would find her worthy of joining their ranks. I think there is too much concern about baggage, trust, etc. there. to overcome. Sadeas' death may change that if she has no political future.

That may be true. It would all depend on what Ialai's motivations are and whether the Ghostbloods find them acceptable. We don't really know much about her, other than she has a crazy large spy network. That fact, alone, says to me that her role is not done, and that it may end up a significant one. That spy network may be enough to interest the Ghostbloods, too. I'm so excited to learn more about the Ghostbloods. I think that their story will offer a lot of information about the Cosmere and what is happening on a grander scale across all the worlds.

[Argel he/him]

4 hours ago, lopens_cousin said:

That spy network may be enough to interest the Ghostbloods, too

Yeah, but they can potentially utilize that without making her a Ghostblood. I hope we learn a lot more about them in SA3!!

[SamsonSeaBorn]

I don't think she'll go to the ghostbloods though they might approach her. I do however think she will seek out the skybreakers seeking justice for her husband's death and vengeance against his slayer. 

[SamsonSeaBorn]

A trial by combat Zseth v Adolin 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 hour ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

I don't think she'll go to the ghostbloods though they might approach her. I do however think she will seek out the skybreakers seeking justice for her husband's death and vengeance against his slayer. 

Why would she seek out the Skybreakers? She has an entire network of spies and assassins. Not to mention that we have no indication that Ialai is aware that the Skybreakers even exist.

1 hour ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

A trial by combat Zseth v Adolin 

We have seen Adolin try to fight Szeth and it ends poorly for him each time. Adolin is no match for Szeth.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

26 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

We have seen Adolin try to fight Szeth and it ends poorly for him each time. Adolin is no match for Szeth.

We've seen Adolin fight Szeth while Szeth had an honorblade and surgebinding. Szeth doesn't have that anymore. I don't know that Adolin would do any better against Nightblood though. 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

3 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

We've seen Adolin fight Szeth while Szeth had an honorblade and surgebinding. Szeth doesn't have that anymore. I don't know that Adolin would do any better against Nightblood though. 

Good point, I had not considered that Szeth does not have Surgebinding. That just might even the odds.