Sadeas and Secret Societies

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

A trial by combat Zseth v Adolin 

And how would they get Szeth to fight Adolin in a trial by combat, providing it is even allowed, in Alethi law, to settle legal issues this way?

[Charlie.x.3000]

There was that King's Boon thing that was pretty central in Words of Radiance

[SamsonSeaBorn]

8 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

Why would she seek out the Skybreakers? She has an entire network of spies and assassins. Not to mention that we have no indication that Ialai is aware that the Skybreakers even exist.

I'm sure she'll probably try the spies at first but Adolin was the only person there. If he keeps his mouth closed and keeps a tight storm he might avoid suspicion. Ielei, who as far as I can tell, not only deeply loves and trusts Sadeas but goes above and beyond for him. If she feels desperate and the radiants are regathering and the skybreakers exist, even with only a deranged Herald at their helm, she might see a chance for justice. 

Edited June 25, 2016 by SamsonSeaBorn
Flibltygibbit

[SamsonSeaBorn]

The real question is what is a hound

[Guest]

5 hours ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

 If he keeps his mouth closed and keeps a tight storm he might avoid suspicion.

I give that one chance over one million of this happening. Adolin tends to overflow all over the place: either he wants it or not, he will look suspicious.

[Argel he/him]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

he will look suspicious

You know, what may be really smart for Adolin is to find a mission to go on sooner than later. You're not going to give away any tells if you're not there. Shallan and Pattern could be a problem for him as well. Interesting idea about Ialia seeking out the Skybreakers for justice.

[Lopens_Cousin]

Totally like the idea of Ialai seeking out the sky breakers, but think she has probably done some "illegal" stuff. Might get execution instead of revenge if she encounters Nalan. Pretty sure some of her assassinations weren't on the up and up with proper paperwork

 

what problem would Adolin have with Shallan and Pattern? Adolin wasn't exactly in a self defense situation like Shallan, but I don't see her as being exactly horrified by what he did...

[SamsonSeaBorn]

3 hours ago, lopens_cousin said:

Totally like the idea of Ialai seeking out the sky breakers, but think she has probably done some "illegal" stuff. Might get execution instead of revenge if she encounters Nalan. Pretty sure some of her assassinations weren't on the up and up with proper paperwork

Well Nalans mission, as far as I could tell, was to prevent surge binders from taking their oaths. Now that there's a bond Smith the order is once again legitimized in I suspect such a fashion that Nalan will have to play by his own rules of order. Though now that I think about it Szeth and Nalan are going to Shinovar so maybe they won't have a presence at the spire.

Edited June 25, 2016 by SamsonSeaBorn

[Argel he/him]

10 hours ago, lopens_cousin said:

what problem would Adolin have with Shallan and Pattern

A KR order based on Truths, cannot imagine how that could work against Adolin.....  Edit: She might have a problem knowing (or even suspecting) her fiance is murderer (even if she does think it was necessary, there's still a difference between someone close you doing it vs. an acquaintance or stranger).

Edited June 26, 2016 by Argel

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

As much as I'd like to see a duel between Szeth and Adolin, it wouldn't happen. Szeth killed Gavilar through assassination, not to mention various other monarchs and leaders, combined with attempting to kill Dalinar so a trial by combat would definitely be the last thing to happen; it would just go straight to execution. Not to mention Szeth has Nightblood...I dread to think of how THAT duel would go down...

Back on topic, I think Sadeas may have guessed there were bigger players on the field but given how secret they were, I find it unlikely he or Ialai would have found a solid lead on any of them. I think Gavilar just knew what an eel Sadeas was and would have tried something sooner or later in the long run.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, ParadoxSpren said:

As much as I'd like to see a duel between Szeth and Adolin, it wouldn't happen. Szeth killed Gavilar through assassination, not to mention various other monarchs and leaders, combined with attempting to kill Dalinar so a trial by combat would definitely be the last thing to happen; it would just go straight to execution. Not to mention Szeth has Nightblood...I dread to think of how THAT duel would go down...

Back on topic, I think Sadeas may have guessed there were bigger players on the field but given how secret they were, I find it unlikely he or Ialai would have found a solid lead on any of them. I think Gavilar just knew what an eel Sadeas was and would have tried something sooner or later in the long run.

Considering the fact Szeth has taken Nightblood to Shinovar to extract vengeance, I'd say the probability of him being in the vicinity of Adolin to get trapped into dueling him goes from slim to none. Not to mention Szeth, oddly enough, may be one of the only person not carrying a grudge against Adolin... If anything, freed Szeth may think he owns one to Adolin as he was ready to kill him without a good reason. Adolin, by his rash emotion-filled action towards the end, just has become the symbol of Szeth's downfall: the one he nearly slayed. 

Back onto the topic, I seriously do not think Ialai needs to enlist any secret societies if her goal solely is to remove Adolin. Why would she even even need the Skybreaker's help in this matters? Dalinar may have won his gamble: house Kholin, despite it gruesome lost at the Tower, now is stronger than ever, all thanks to its rising star. By unleashing his most prized and valuable asset, his own son, Dalinar allowed the Highprinces to see what he has known for a while: Adolin has grown-up quite a bit since his early days as a fopish teenager at the Alethi court. Nobody took him seriously, now they are genuinely afraid of him. Dalinar won, but the price to pay was a moving target on Adolin's forehead. The Highprinces once plotted to remove Dalinar Kholin, a formidable man which was going mad, but remained strong and powerful enough to threaten their ways. They are now force to consider the fact the son may become more dangerous than the father. Adolin didn't just win, he beat them, he humiliated them and he did it while doing a flourishing bow. 

I'd say, if Ialai simply wants to take out Adolin, allies are going to be easy to find... The Ruthar probably still yearn for revenge: Adolin cost them their eldest son, but Relis wasn't the only son... Jakamav, whatever his current status may be, surely wants his revenge. 

I guess I simply do not see the need for a secret society to involve itself into Ialai's matter not to mention she may be a Red Hearing. After all, Amaram's arrival early in WoR turned out being one: everyone expected Kaladin to confront him. It never happened, well, not in the way everyone imagined.

[Lopens_Cousin]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I guess I simply do not see the need for a secret society to involve itself into Ialai's matter not to mention she may be a Red Hearing. After all, Amaram's arrival early in WoR turned out being one: everyone expected Kaladin to confront him. It never happened, well, not in the way everyone imagined.

I think you're probably right about Ialai joining an organization. She and Saddeus seemed to be too independent and self-serving to find joining something greater than themselves attractive. But... maybe grief, if she even grieves, would drive her too it.

I remember a WoB where he talks about the danger of side characters and tangents in an Epic of this length, and that he gives himself the interludes to explore additional characters and then, ultimately, leave our imaginations to fill in the gaps. However, I don't know if Ialai will qualify as a character interesting enough for exposition in an interlude. Perhaps, but if not, she may be what you describe.

Even so, I really think that network of spies will need some resolution in some form. It was only a few lines, but the seed was sown in my mind that there is a vast network of spies and assassins out there and only Ialai knows them all. I think I'll just always suspect everyone of being a spy (perhaps that's wise anyway) until we get some more info on what Ialai is going to do, or at least what becomes of her network. It may not be some big dramatic confrontation (e.g. Amaram and Kaladin), but I think it will have to be dealt with.

Edited June 26, 2016 by lopens_cousin

[Guest]

1 hour ago, lopens_cousin said:

I think you're probably right about Ialai joining an organization. She and Saddeus seemed to be too independent and self-serving to find joining something greater than themselves attractive. But... maybe grief, if she even grieves, would drive her too it.

I remember a WoB where he talks about the danger of side characters and tangents in an Epic of this length, and that he gives himself the interludes to explore additional characters and then, ultimately, leave our imaginations to fill in the gaps. However, I don't know if Ialai will qualify as a character interesting enough for exposition in an interlude. Perhaps, but if not, she may be what you describe.

Even so, I really think that network of spies will need some resolution in some form. It was only a few lines, but the seed was sown in my mind that there is a vast network of spies and assassins out there and only Ialai knows them all. I think I'll just always suspect everyone of being a spy (perhaps that's wise anyway) until we get some more info on what Ialai is going to do, or at least what becomes of her network. It may not be some big dramatic confrontation (e.g. Amaram and Kaladin), but I think it will have to be dealt with.

I honestly do not see the need for her to garner help via a secret society or another. Simply because Dalinar was right about Urithiru and the visions does not mean the other Highprinces are all willing to give him the world in confession, especially now his close entourage has become feared Radiants. Ruthar may have come to the city, but has he forgotten the Kholins for Relis? And Elit? Sebrarial and Aladar may have become Dalinar's allies, but what of the other princedoms? And what about Roion who died without, presumably, a heir? How influential Brightlord Jakamav is among the other sworn houses of the former Roion's princedom? He is a land lord of the 3rd dahn: not the son of a land lord of the 3rd dahn making him not only the head of his house, but an influential member of the lighteyed community. The simply fact Roion was willing to join arms with Dalinar seems to indicate he probably didn't have a say into the 4 on 1 duel, meaning Jakamav acted on his own or perhaps he moved his house to another princedom moments before the fight or maybe he intended to so afterwards. In any advent, it is safe to assume Jakamav acted outside the authority of his Highprince: Roion would have never let him gamble his Plate, even in a "sure" fight.

I'd say if Ialai goes on a vengeance streak, she won't have to look too hard to find allies. Adolin Kholin has become too much of a threat by his own to be allowed to keep on succeeding and with his family being recently turned into Radiants, he appears as the one weak spot where to strike Dalinar. Sadeas understood this. Ialai certainly understands this and it is quite possible they shared their thoughts with Ruthar and their other allies.

I agree Ialai's cunning side has to be addressed and I agree it would be a tad disappointing if he network of spies does not end up being used. I am quite sure attempts will be made on Adolin's life: it seems inevitable. What I am less convinced of is whether or not Ialai will become a full-fleshed villain. There may not be a big confrontation... It may be Dalinar sends Adolin away to safety in Part 1, but this would be horribly boring. Too many people are looking for a re-match for it not to happen: just as the Kaladin/Szeth final confrontation had to happen, I am quite sure and Adolin/someone who hates him confrontation has to happen.

As for the side character thing, I believe he refers mostly to the habit other authors have had to scatter their cast across their world... by wanting to built a lively world, authors are forced to create character all across the map, but it dilute the story into too many leads. All of the interlude characters are evolving is other locations or are of other species: they are made to give us better insight on Roshar. Ialai certainly is a side character, but she is one located within the main narrative which means she is a candidate to inherit one of those occasional POV. She certainly isn't becoming anyone major, but she could move up as an antagonist or not. Truly there is no way to tell.

[Argel he/him]

I wonder if we are over rating the importance of the network of spies. It's like we talk about it as if none of the other high princes have their own as well, when they obviously have to to stay in power. Maybe hers is the best (not counting secret societies), but I'm not sure that warrants much attention. It could have been mentioned to help build up that Sadeas is a serious threat.

As a side note, we have no indication they figured out what Sebarial was up to any sooner (or at least, not much sooner) then the others. Though maybe no one was paying much attention. Well, I guess those days are over.

 

On a Tangent: I hope we see more Sebarial -- fun character. The worthless fop that turns out to beat the others on the economics front and has a clear enough head to take care of Roion's soldiers. And how many still believe there are family ties with Shallan? Sebarial with the KR niece.... Well, I guess she was worth the cost after all.

 

Anyway, I think we may be over rating her spy network (or forgetting about/underestimating the rest).

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

I wonder if we are over rating the importance of the network of spies. It's like we talk about it as if none of the other high princes have their own as well, when they obviously have to to stay in power. Maybe hers is the best (not counting secret societies), but I'm not sure that warrants much attention. It could have been mentioned to help build up that Sadeas is a serious threat.

As a side note, we have no indication they figured out what Sebarial was up to any sooner (or at least, not much sooner) then the others. Though maybe no one was paying much attention. Well, I guess those days are over.

 

On a Tangent: I hope we see more Sebarial -- fun character. The worthless fop that turns out to beat the others on the economics front and has a clear enough head to take care of Roion's soldiers. And how many still believe there are family ties with Shallan? Sebarial with the KR niece.... Well, I guess she was worth the cost after all.

 

Anyway, I think we may be over rating her spy network (or forgetting about/underestimating the rest).

If I were Ialai and if I had access to a wide network of both spies and assassins, I would carefully plan my revenge... I would work in order to crumble house Kholin as much as possible, I would snare Adolin.

I would create chaos.

I would send my assassins to take out chosen targets, antagonists to the Kholin household, all killed in the same fashion as Sadeas, with a knife through the eye. I would targets members of house Ruthar, Elit perhaps? I would make it seem as if the Kholins were out to take out their competition and I would blame them all on Adolin.

He would never be able to prove he didn't kill them. Once he admits he has murdered Sadeas, who would believe him when he says he didn't kill the others when the murders are made to look exactly the same?

I think Ialai may have the right cards in hand to complete her husband's work. The question should now be, will she?

[Argel he/him]

Going back to my point, things have changed. The others do have their own spy networks (presumably even Dalinar has some semblance of one). Before they might let her get away with that, but with the end of the world upon them, loyalties may have shifted. I know I would be seriously thinking about siding with the KRs, and turning her in for trying to frame things on Adolin would obviously go a long way to gaining some influence with Dalinar. So whereas before others may have kept quiet about what bits and pieces they knew, they may decide differently this time. It's easy to think they will all still be ridiculously petty, but there has been a substantial shift in power at this point  (plus that whole end of the world thing, and much worse to come within a few days).

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

Going back to my point, things have changed. The others do have their own spy networks (presumably even Dalinar has some semblance of one). Before they might let her get away with that, but with the end of the world upon them, loyalties may have shifted. I know I would be seriously thinking about siding with the KRs, and turning her in for trying to frame things on Adolin would obviously go a long way to gaining some influence with Dalinar. So whereas before others may have kept quiet about what bits and pieces they knew, they may decide differently this time. It's easy to think they will all still be ridiculously petty, but there has been a substantial shift in power at this point  (plus that whole end of the world thing, and much worse to come within a few days).

I have some how issues imagining Dalinar entertaining a secret network of spies... It just does not fit with the character, somehow. I suspect Jasnah was the one managing whatever pass as a spy network within the Kholin princedom, but Dalinar himself is too by the book to even go there.

Loyalties may have shifted, but who is to say all houses will back up Dalinar? He is a Radiant now, he is more powerful than ever, he wants to reform Alethkar: why would his opponents suddenly be fine with allowing him all the room he wants to grow even more powerful? If I were his enemy, I would use whichever advantage I could get on my hand to destroy him while it is still possible. The Desolation remains a far-away threat: it won't be concrete until it hits home. Up until then, the houses will keep on playing their game, unless Dalinar manages to convince them to stop, but this isn't a done deal, not yet. Now, it is fair to assume some house will willingly follow him simply because he was right about the city, but his enemies will remain his enemies.

If Ialai tries for a power grab by turning Adolin's actions into recurrent events, with an obvious signature, then I am convinced only her closest allies will be privy to the full extend of her actions. Those carefully chosen allies are bound to be those who wouldn't betray her... I mean, what will it take for Ruthar to side with Dalinar? Adolin cost him his son... he humiliated his house, he took 2 Plates and one Blade from his princedom. If he sees a way to get revenge, I am quite sure he'll take it.

I am saying, we keep mentioning this fabulous network of Ialai, but all we typically say if she may uses her spies. To which end? If nobody saw Adolin, then it is over. Her spies wouldn't tell her more, her assassins however may help her device a snare.

As I said, if I were Ialai and if I were on a vengeance streak, this is what I would attempt to do. A great gamble, but quite seriously at this point in time, she has nothing else to lose.

[Argel he/him]

The Everstorm is going to hit cities from the wrong direction, wreaking massive damage, all within a week or so. I really hope the pettiness starts moving to the sidelines. Stupid self-centered politicians is an overused trope, especially considering our (USA) current presidential race.

I think the big gap in knowledge is what happens to her now that Sadeas is dead. Does she end up like Navani? Or have more options? I think that could significantly alter what she does. Obviously if she is likely to end up like Navani then she has nothing to lose. On the other hand, if she has options to remain a major political player then it's hard topredict what she does without knowing the specifics of said options. I guess we will just have to wait for SA3.  Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

The Everstorm is going to hit cities from the wrong direction, wreaking massive damage, all within a week or so. I really hope the pettiness starts moving to the sidelines. Stupid self-centered politicians is an overused trope, especially considering our (USA) current presidential race.

I think the big gap in knowledge is what happens to her now that Sadeas is dead. Does she end up like Navani? Or have more options? I think that could significantly alter what she does. Obviously if she is likely to end up like Navani then she has nothing to lose. On the other hand, if she has options to remain a major political player then it's hard topredict what she does without knowing the specifics of said options. I guess we will just have to wait for SA3.  Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!

People do not change this easily, even in the face of adversity, it takes time for mentality to change which is why I do not foresee a dramatic switch in the overall behavior of the Highprinces simply because of the Everstorm. Mind, I may be wrong about this, but this is how I currently feel about it. Most people aren't going to readily forsake hundred of years of hatred towards the Radiants and neither are they going alter their mindset over a short period of time. It takes time for drastic changes to happen. It would seriously trialed my suspense of disbelief if Dalinar suddenly found himself without any enemies simply for having succeeded once.

As for Ialai herself, I think it will be very interesting to see the true ramifications for women when their husbands die. Navani's experience sure seems to indicate former wife of high ranked political men are left without much to munch on. They are cared for, maintained, but their political power seems to evaporate with their husband's death. I am thus leaning towards believing Ialai ending up having nothing to loose... but I agree we are going to have to RAFO. Sadly.

[Pathfinder]

I am still of the opinion like in the other thread, that I do not feel Ialai will be as handicapped as people think. Navani lost all her power, because she had a son to inherit the throne. As far as we can see Ialai doesn't have any children, and I do not recall it ever being mentioned that Sadeas has any brothers. So by right of inheritance, the title may very well remain with Ialai until she decides to remarry.  

[galendo]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

People do not change this easily, even in the face of adversity, it takes time for mentality to change which is why I do not foresee a dramatic switch in the overall behavior of the Highprinces simply because of the Everstorm. Mind, I may be wrong about this, but this is how I currently feel about it. Most people aren't going to readily forsake hundred of years of hatred towards the Radiants and neither are they going alter their mindset over a short period of time. It takes time for drastic changes to happen. It would seriously trialed my suspense of disbelief if Dalinar suddenly found himself without any enemies simply for having succeeded once.

Not only this, but it's entirely possible that people realize that the Radiants and the Everstorm came at the same time and conclude that one caused the other.  It's entirely possible the KR may be blamed for the Everstorm, which definitely won't help their reputation.

 

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am still of the opinion like in the other thread, that I do not feel Ialai will be as handicapped as people think. Navani lost all her power, because she had a son to inherit the throne. As far as we can see Ialai doesn't have any children, and I do not recall it ever being mentioned that Sadeas has any brothers. So by right of inheritance, the title may very well remain with Ialai until she decides to remarry.  

We don't know exactly what Alethi inheritance laws look like, but I'd say it's pretty unlikely that Ialai can stay in charge of the princedom.  First, every single highprince is a male, that we know of; second, Jasnah is never mentioned as being in the line of succession, so a woman inheriting seems to be entirely unacceptable (given the strict Alethi thoughts on division between the sexes, this seems even more likely); and third, when the citylord of Hearthstone died without a male heir, the king just assigned a new citylord.  There was never any discussion about letting Laral inherit.  So it seems pretty unlikely that Ialai has a (legal) leg to stand on here.  Of course, there are always extralegal ways of remaining in power....

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

We don't know exactly what Alethi inheritance laws look like, but I'd say it's pretty unlikely that Ialai can stay in charge of the princedom.  First, every single highprince is a male, that we know of; second, Jasnah is never mentioned as being in the line of succession, so a woman inheriting seems to be entirely unacceptable (given the strict Alethi thoughts on division between the sexes, this seems even more likely); and third, when the citylord of Hearthstone died without a male heir, the king just assigned a new citylord.  There was never any discussion about letting Laral inherit.  So it seems pretty unlikely that Ialai has a (legal) leg to stand on here.  Of course, there are always extralegal ways of remaining in power....

Every single culture with royalty, from Europe to Asia functions this way. First King, then to male child. No male child, check for brothers, male cousins, etc. None of that, check for female child. None of that, then goes to Wife. That is why Dalinar ended up the head of Kholinar. Galivar was the overall King. When he died, the kingship went to Elhokar, his only male issue. Then when deciding on who got Kholinar, they looked to the next male issue. Since there was not another male son, it went to his brother Dalinar. Jasnah is referred to as a princess and just because it is not explicitly stated, does not mean it is not possible as I have shown in the order of inheritance. It is unlikely, as they do look exhaustively for male issue, but it is certainly possible and has happened. See King Henry the 8th. Now you are right, drawing on earth form of inheritance is not conclusive, but Brandon draws heavily on that historical period from Asian and European culture so it certainly lends it credence. However that is also why I said that in my opinion, I still see it going that way. If a woman's right to rule was solely based on the Vorin division of sexes, then why is Elhokar's wife allowed to call the shots back in Kholinar while he is at the Shattered Plains? Laral was still a minor at that point, and Roshone wanted to marry her off to his son and then to himself to get Wistiow's money which he felt (rightly), that Lirin stole. That money would have gone to Laral, but Lirin had it forged to go to him. So Laral still inherited, but Roshone was given Hearthstone by Royal Edict because it was his exile for his transgressions as well as she was too young to rule it at the time. There are plenty of instances where landed nobles who are lords of such and such land, despite having male heirs, have it taken away and given to someone in greater favor or as punishment. So that unique circumstance does not make for doctrine of inheritance. 

for reference:

Way of Kings page 192

The Alethi princedoms were like kingdoms unto themselves, still mostly autonomous despite having accepted Gavilar as king. Elhokar had inherited the throne, and Dalinar, by right, had taken the Kholin Princedom as his own. 

Way of Kings page 551

"Wistiow was not lucid during the final days, Kal," he whispered. "I knew that, with his death, we would lose the promise of a union. Laral had not reached her day of majority, and the new citylord wouldn't let a darkeyes take her inheritance through marriage."

edit: found some more:

Way of Kings page 548

Wistiow's wealth - what was left of it - had gone to her. And when Roshone had been given authority over Hearthstone and granted the mansion and surrounding lands, Highprince Sadeas had given Laral a dowry in compensation. 

So basically the mansion, lands and wealth should have all gone to Laral, but Sadeas granted the mansion, and lands to Roshone, for Elhokar to get him out of their hair and push the scandal under the rug. Since Laral was due to inherit, Sadeas to not completely screw her over as she was a loyal subject, gave her a decent dowry in compensation. Roshone being greedy, wanted that dowry, as well as the tie to her respectable house through marriage. 

So in conclusion, unless Sadeas has any brothers, any male cousins, or any male, and then female children, the title goes to Ialai. There have been none of the above mentioned so far. That does not preclude their existence, but it does give her a shot at holding the title herself legally. Conversely, Elhokar theoretically could give Sadeas's princedom to someone else, but I doubt that would happen as there would be a huge fall out with the other high princes, and Sadeas's army for doing so. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Guest]

6 hours ago, galendo said:

Not only this, but it's entirely possible that people realize that the Radiants and the Everstorm came at the same time and conclude that one caused the other.  It's entirely possible the KR may be blamed for the Everstorm, which definitely won't help their reputation.

You make a very good point. Of course, the fact the Everstorm's arrival coincide with the reveal of the Radiants will not go unnoticed. It may have even been Sadeas's plan to undermine Dalinar: blame him for the devastating storm. The Radiants already have a terrible reputation and while people have, so far, reacted mildly to their return, they realistically didn't have the time to fully analyse the situation. 

Not everyone will be pleased.

6 hours ago, galendo said:

We don't know exactly what Alethi inheritance laws look like, but I'd say it's pretty unlikely that Ialai can stay in charge of the princedom.  First, every single highprince is a male, that we know of; second, Jasnah is never mentioned as being in the line of succession, so a woman inheriting seems to be entirely unacceptable (given the strict Alethi thoughts on division between the sexes, this seems even more likely); and third, when the citylord of Hearthstone died without a male heir, the king just assigned a new citylord.  There was never any discussion about letting Laral inherit.  So it seems pretty unlikely that Ialai has a (legal) leg to stand on here.  Of course, there are always extralegal ways of remaining in power....

I agree with this: it also seems highly unlikely Ialai will have the right to maintain her title once Sadeas's body is found. Women aren't Highprinces, they are the wife of Highprinces and while, as Pathfinder later points out, they are allowed to rule in the absence of their husband, they do not carry titles themselves. Alethi are a warring society: men are expected to take up the arms which mean they are likely to be absent from their hometown for prolonged period of time. Let's not kid ourselves, Dalinar probably spent most of his time being away from his family and his princedom, occupied he was conquering Alethkar. In these circumstances, women would, of course, be the one to rule over the administrative side of their land. It also helps women are actually the ones receiving instruction and the ones who can write.

I thus draw a severe line in between being a wife and ruling over your husband lands and owning titles or lands on your own. 

It seems highly likely Ialai will find herself with little alternative: marry a younger man to keep on being relevant or make a power play despite being a woman. I'd say, Ialai, the woman who behaves like a man most of the time (she sprawls her feet onto the table, she eats men's food) may be the right candidate to start infusing some girl power into the Alethi structure.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So in conclusion, unless Sadeas has any brothers, any male cousins, or any male, and then female children, the title goes to Ialai. There have been none of the above mentioned so far. That does not preclude their existence, but it does give her a shot at holding the title herself legally. Conversely, Elhokar theoretically could give Sadeas's princedom to someone else, but I doubt that would happen as there would be a huge fall out with the other high princes, and Sadeas's army for doing so. 

It is never stated Laral should have been given ruling rights over Heartstone: it has been stated the money goes down to her, the material means, but not the titles. We must also not forget Highprince Yenev whom was murdered by Team Dalinar in order to promote the nomination of Aladar, a man favorable to Gavilar's rule in his place. Considering the fact most Alethi marry in their teens, the probability of Yenev to have been single seems small: we have met too many "out of norm" Alethi already. It seem more likely Yenev had a wife which was completely disregarded when he died in order to favor Aladar. 

Of course, I have absolutely no argument to support this claim except from my personal feeling women aren't allowed in inherit. Jasnah is NOT in the line of inheritance because the line of inheritance has been clearly defined in the book: Elhokar, his son, Dalinar, Adolin. Adolin is clearly identified as third in line for the throne, right after his father who stands right after Elhokar's son. Jasnah is not in there: as a women, she has no right to inherit the title, just the wealth. I should think this one example would strengthen the claim wanting Ialai to find herself without any political power.

[Pathfinder]

12 hours ago, maxal said:

You make a very good point. Of course, the fact the Everstorm's arrival coincide with the reveal of the Radiants will not go unnoticed. It may have even been Sadeas's plan to undermine Dalinar: blame him for the devastating storm. The Radiants already have a terrible reputation and while people have, so far, reacted mildly to their return, they realistically didn't have the time to fully analyse the situation. 

Not everyone will be pleased.

I agree with this: it also seems highly unlikely Ialai will have the right to maintain her title once Sadeas's body is found. Women aren't Highprinces, they are the wife of Highprinces and while, as Pathfinder later points out, they are allowed to rule in the absence of their husband, they do not carry titles themselves. Alethi are a warring society: men are expected to take up the arms which mean they are likely to be absent from their hometown for prolonged period of time. Let's not kid ourselves, Dalinar probably spent most of his time being away from his family and his princedom, occupied he was conquering Alethkar. In these circumstances, women would, of course, be the one to rule over the administrative side of their land. It also helps women are actually the ones receiving instruction and the ones who can write.

I thus draw a severe line in between being a wife and ruling over your husband lands and owning titles or lands on your own. 

It seems highly likely Ialai will find herself with little alternative: marry a younger man to keep on being relevant or make a power play despite being a woman. I'd say, Ialai, the woman who behaves like a man most of the time (she sprawls her feet onto the table, she eats men's food) may be the right candidate to start infusing some girl power into the Alethi structure.

It is never stated Laral should have been given ruling rights over Heartstone: it has been stated the money goes down to her, the material means, but not the titles. We must also not forget Highprince Yenev whom was murdered by Team Dalinar in order to promote the nomination of Aladar, a man favorable to Gavilar's rule in his place. Considering the fact most Alethi marry in their teens, the probability of Yenev to have been single seems small: we have met too many "out of norm" Alethi already. It seem more likely Yenev had a wife which was completely disregarded when he died in order to favor Aladar. 

Of course, I have absolutely no argument to support this claim except from my personal feeling women aren't allowed in inherit. Jasnah is NOT in the line of inheritance because the line of inheritance has been clearly defined in the book: Elhokar, his son, Dalinar, Adolin. Adolin is clearly identified as third in line for the throne, right after his father who stands right after Elhokar's son. Jasnah is not in there: as a women, she has no right to inherit the title, just the wealth. I should think this one example would strengthen the claim wanting Ialai to find herself without any political power.

So if Laral was never going to get ruling rights over Heartstone, then why was she given a dowry for compensation on top of her already monetary inheritance? What was the compensation for? The quote literally states:

Wistiow's wealth - what was left of it - had gone to her. And when Roshone had been given authority over Hearthstone and granted the mansion and surrounding lands, Highprince Sadeas had given Laral a dowry in compensation. 

Roshone got Hearthstone, and Laral got a dowry in compensation. That syntax shows to me, that she was supposed to get Hearthstone, but since she didn't, she was given a dowry instead. Otherwise I am genuinely curious what do you suggest the dowry was in compensation for? Not trying to be condescending, just I do not see any other option personally so am genuinely curious. 

 

Again refer to the quote and the syntax. I found what you are referencing, have posted it below and will explain why I believe you mis-interpreted it. 

Words of Radiance page 46

"He's heir to a princedom! He's in line to the throne of Alethkar itself!"

"Third in line," Jasnah said, "behind my brother's infant son and Dalinar, my uncle."

That quote in no way disproves the line of inheritance I showed earlier. King dies, it goes to his son (Elhokar's son). If Elhokar's son is dead or dies, it goes to the next male heir. If there is no second son, it then goes to the King's next closest male relative, which is typically brother. Since Elhokar does not have a brother, it then goes to cousins/relatives. In this case Dalinar as his uncle. Since Dalinar has a son if anything then happens to him, it goes to Adolin, and then Renarin. If all male relatives are exhausted, then it goes to female issuance.  Is there a female child of the king? No? Then go to next female relative, which would lead us to Jasnah. Why would Jasnah, in that conversation go "Third in line. behind my brother's infant son and Dalinar my uncle. Then his brother Renarin, and finally me." It makes no sense. She is speaking about Adolin, and his place in line. By your logic, then Renarin is not fourth in line for the throne, because he was not mentioned. That quote clearly follows the line of succession I mentioned earlier. The only difference is it didn't get far enough down the line to mention Jasnah. Ialai does not have that issue. We never hear of any male children of Sadeas. We never hear of any brothers of Sadeas. Given Sadeas's age, it is unlikely he has any uncles living. Also no mention of any male cousins. Now again, just because they aren't mentioned, does not mean they do not exist but given as you said it is wartime, it would make sense that all the highprinces have a clear line of succession in mind in case they die in battle. Ialai never seems to be concerned about this fact. Dalinar on the other hand mentions it specifically regarding Adolin and grooms him for exactly that. In the end this is my opinion, but I believe it is an opinion that is backed up by history and references in book. Won't know till book three. I won't continue to push my opinion as it is a derailment of this thread that is focusing on whether Sadeas has any connections to secret societies. Not whether or not Ialai keeps her title. Sorry for the derailment!

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So if Laral was never going to get ruling rights over Heartstone, then why was she given a dowry for compensation on top of her already monetary inheritance? What was the compensation for? The quote literally states:

Wistiow's wealth - what was left of it - had gone to her. And when Roshone had been given authority over Hearthstone and granted the mansion and surrounding lands, Highprince Sadeas had given Laral a dowry in compensation. 

Roshone got Hearthstone, and Laral got a dowry in compensation. That syntax shows to me, that she was supposed to get Hearthstone, but since she didn't, she was given a dowry instead. Otherwise I am genuinely curious what do you suggest the dowry was in compensation for? Not trying to be condescending, just I do not see any other option personally so am genuinely curious. 

 

Again refer to the quote and the syntax. I found what you are referencing, have posted it below and will explain why I believe you mis-interpreted it. 

Words of Radiance page 46

"He's heir to a princedom! He's in line to the throne of Alethkar itself!"

"Third in line," Jasnah said, "behind my brother's infant son and Dalinar, my uncle."

That quote in no way disproves the line of inheritance I showed earlier. King dies, it goes to his son (Elhokar's son). If Elhokar's son is dead or dies, it goes to the next male heir. If there is no second son, it then goes to the King's next closest male relative, which is typically brother. Since Elhokar does not have a brother, it then goes to cousins/relatives. In this case Dalinar as his uncle. Since Dalinar has a son if anything then happens to him, it goes to Adolin, and then Renarin. If all male relatives are exhausted, then it goes to female issuance.  Is there a female child of the king? No? Then go to next female relative, which would lead us to Jasnah. Why would Jasnah, in that conversation go "Third in line. behind my brother's infant son and Dalinar my uncle. Then his brother Renarin, and finally me." It makes no sense. She is speaking about Adolin, and his place in line. By your logic, then Renarin is not fourth in line for the throne, because he was not mentioned. That quote clearly follows the line of succession I mentioned earlier. The only difference is it didn't get far enough down the line to mention Jasnah. Ialai does not have that issue. We never hear of any male children of Sadeas. We never hear of any brothers of Sadeas. Given Sadeas's age, it is unlikely he has any uncles living. Also no mention of any male cousins. Now again, just because they aren't mentioned, does not mean they do not exist but given as you said it is wartime, it would make sense that all the highprinces have a clear line of succession in mind in case they die in battle. Ialai never seems to be concerned about this fact. Dalinar on the other hand mentions it specifically regarding Adolin and grooms him for exactly that. In the end this is my opinion, but I believe it is an opinion that is backed up by history and references in book. Won't know till book three. I won't continue to push my opinion as it is a derailment of this thread that is focusing on whether Sadeas has any connections to secret societies. Not whether or not Ialai keeps her title. Sorry for the derailment!

It still does not prove your point in stating Laral should have inherited her father's title. Evidence in the book: namely the fact there are no women within positions of power, disrepute your claim. Surely, men dying without having a clear male line of inheritance happens often enough. If women could inherit titles, then there would a quite a few lingering around, but there are no such characters. 

My logic simply meant to highlight the fact Jasnah has been skipped all together within the line of inheritance. She does not mention Renarin, which undoubtedly is fourth in line, because she was discussing Adolin specific condition, selling him to Shallan as if she were talking about a horse. Your argument is because she didn't go down to Renarin and, presumably, to herself implies she may be in line for the throne once all male heirs died. I disagree as there is no such evidence female are allowed to inherit titles. If female had equal rights to inherit, then Jasnah would have stand higher than Dalinar: the female can inherit once there are absolutely no male heir whatsoever is not supported by textual evidence and is strongly supported by the total lack of women standing on their own with their own titles. Had Elhokar and his son died, had Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin died, then the kingship would have likely gone to Jasnah's son, providing she ever has one.

As for Laral, she lost her inheritance mainly consisting of farming lands and a household for which she was monetarily compensated: material means. No way was it ever mentioned she should have ruled, by her own right, over Heartstone. It is simply mentioned she is entitled to the value of her father's holdings, not the titles. I thus disagree this forms an argument in favor of women being allowed to inherit. The dowry was in compensation for the mansion she lost, not the title. Women can inherit mansions, money and such means, but not legal authority.

Sorry to prolonged the derailment, but I disagree with your claim women are allowed in inherit titles as I found there aren't enough arguments to support it against the many which doesn't. However, I agree with you there may be the possibility I am totally wrong about it and I certainly agree we will both have to RAFO going onto book 3 to find out more about it.