Long Game 22: Corenne al'Daishar

[Hellscythe]

Mailliw: sets everyone else on edge. Impossible to tell true alignment.

Yes Edited June 3, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Orlok Tsubodai]

You're doing GCSEs, right, Stink?

You'll be fine - learn the spec - literally, get the spec from the examiner's website, and then do every available past paper.

Now, I'm going to make myself unpopular, and speak up for a moment to defend Sart. Now, it's all very well following Kas' excellent tenets, but not everyone does - and I think it is as such necessary to establish that we're going to have a lynch.

Beginning this conversation isn't, in my mind, a lynch-worthy offence. I can recall a great deal of conversations about this in previous games, many of them insitgated by villagers.

If anything, having the conversation creates subject matter for discussion, which enables a more informed lynch.

Now, let's be clear - I think that having a day one lynch as a matter of course is better - and does gain more information. But I don't think it was possible to assume at the start of the game that we were going to have one, so starting a conversation isn't a tactic for diverting conversation - rather, for creating conversation.

Now, regarding the mayor. I'm not sure I support giving more power to a player like Meta or Wilson. Both are widely respected in this subforum, and have illustrious reputations. Hence, we give their views a great deal of thought and value anyway - and also scrutinise them perhaps further. I would advocate giving the mayoralty to a lesser heard player, on the basis of increasing the exposure they receive in the thread, and not giving yet more power over the lynch to already influential players.

[jaimeleecee]

All good points Orlok

 

Personally, I was intrigued by the conversation about D1 Lynch... because I'm new and I think its important to understand the pro's and con's of something like this when you have never played before.  For you veterans of the game I could see how it would be annoying or seem like a distraction, but for me (and maybe anyone else new?) it wasn't really beating a dead horse so to speak....

 

I've noticed that several people have remained silent so far, and I'm wondering who is lurking in the shadows watching people pointing their fingers at each other, laughing to themselves as they plot the villagers demise.... 

[GunshyMink74]

Now, regarding the mayor. I'm not sure I support giving more power to a player like Meta or Wilson. Both are widely respected in this subforum, and have illustrious reputations. Hence, we give their views a great deal of thought and value anyway - and also scrutinise them perhaps further. I would advocate giving the mayoralty to a lesser heard player, on the basis of increasing the exposure they receive in the thread, and not giving yet more power over the lynch to already influential players.

 

I'm with Orlok on this one. Why give more power to the people who already set others on edge with just their rep? 

[Nyali]

Can we vote for "no mayor"?

[the winter system]

I'm ALWAYS suspicious of things that look like lynch trains. (They discourage discussion). It looks like it's not going there, though, so that's good. Anyway, I'm kinda getting a weird vibe from Meta, but haven't played with him in a while, so, you know how my intuition is off. Same about Orlok. Anyway, some thoughts.

[little wilson]

But I don't think it was possible to assume at the start of the game that we were going to have one

 

This is a game of mafia. The village doesn't win if the village isn't willing to lynch. I think it's pointless to go into a game of mafia wondering "Hm. I'm not sure if I want to lynch on the first day. I mean, I just don't know anything!" If you have that attitude, you'll never know anything.

 

There have been games where the entirety of Day 1 was taken up by conversations of if a lynch should even occur, with people arguing back and forth about the merits of lynching someone or not. Do we gain information? Do we not gain information? Is it worth it to most likely kill a villager? Guess what? In most of those games, the eliminators got an early lead on the village because the village didn't get organized as fast as it could've. For me, this discussion is a moot point. I am and always will be in support of a Day 1 intent to lynch. Always. I don't see the point in talking about it because no one is going to be swayed. The people for it are always going to be for it (or at least claim they're always for it) and the people against it are always going to be against it. We can say it's to help the people on the fence, but I'm pretty sure the people on the fence would figure out if they support a day one lynch by having a day one lynch and seeing if they vote or not.

 

 

As for the Mayor role. I agree that it would be best for the Mayor to not be someone with a reputation, but I'm not voting for Meta because of any rep or his intelligence as a player or anything like that. I voted for Meta purely because he's my best lead for a villager. That's it. That's what I care about when it comes to voting people for Mayor. I don't care to make the same mistake I made in the first run by voting the Darkfriend Channeler as Mayor, even if it's only for a cycle. Could we vote in a newer player that we don't know as well? Sure, we could. Want to know the kind of team Gamma had as eliminators in the first game? None of them had played more than 2 games. I don't trust Gamma because he's a troll. So no, I'm not going to vote on someone willy-nilly just to see what they'll do with the mayor position. I'm voting on my best guess for a villager.

 

Want my reads right now? I use a scale of 1 to 100 where I start everyone at 50 and the closer you are to 100, the more village I think you are, and the closer you are to 1, the more evil I think you are. Anyone I don't list below is still at 50.

 

Meta - 58

Stink - 55

Hael - 52

Hellscythe - 51

jaime - 51

Orlok - 49 - mostly paranoia, and very, very minor gut read

Twei - 48 - gut

Elbereth - 47 - can't read her. At times, she'll say something that seems villagery, but then she'll follow it up with something that reads a little false. The fact that I can't read her makes me wary.

Sart - 47 - already addressed this 

StrawMan - 45 - His enthusiasm to vote for a Mayor and provide nothing else is distinctly unhelpful.

Gunshy - 45 - pure gut

Nyali - 44 - a rather strong gut feeling. If you wanted, I could do an analysis of her posts so far to show where the gut feeling is stemming from, but I don't have time right now and won't for another 6-7 hours (I'm driving to Idaho as soon as I get off work), but if people want it, I'll do it later tonight.

Winter - 43 - Got a little defensive of Sart (as Meta pointed out), I also already mentioned the inconsistency with the meta lynch discussion, and a couple of her posts have been trying to cast a lot of doubt on Meta, but also trying to seem like she's not trying to really cast doubt on him by following it up with "But I haven't played with him for a while!"....Now, perhaps Meta isn't a villager, but he's my biggest hunch for it, and if I'm right, the fact that the Darkfriends would know that I'm right would make them panic over the idea of Meta and Wilson working together so quickly. So what would they want to do? Start casting doubt on one or both of us and hope that it drives a wedge and makes us less likely to work together, or gets one of us killed. I guarantee that the one thing they don't want is village!Meta working with village!Wilson.

 

If I were to retract my vote on Sart, I would vote for Winter. However, I'm keeping my vote on Sart for now because I want him to continue speaking up. He has a habit of falling silent.

[STINK]

Aw shucks, I'm already a 55! If I got that on my English exam then I'd get an A!

[the winter system]

It's gut, which is why I'm pointing out that I haven't played with most of you in a while. I still don't see where the so called misconsistentsies are. (Did I spell that right?) anyway, maybe he's village. Maybe he isn't. Most of my suspicions are based on gut anyway. Pretty sure I've said that. I don't understand where your suspicions are coming from.

And this is my second game back (and last time I was evil), so apologies if I'm out of practice.

Both of you guys are really good players, but you seem really too quick to trust each other. I get "Gamma is a troll," but remember the first AG? I don't want another repeat of that.

Is it wrong of me to be convinced by your point about day one lynches? If you say something smart, people get convinced.

[Sart]

I looked over the rules again, and I have a lot of questions about the Ta'veren.

• Do people know when they're being controlled by the Ta'veren?
• What happens if a Ta'veren controls a Chaneller?
• What happens if they control the Forsaken?
• What happens if Padan Fain is controlled?
• Are Thief-Takers and White Cloaks affected by Ta'veren?
• If you're vanilla, do the Ta'veren control your dragon fang?

This role could be extremely dangerous, so I don't want anything left to chance.

 

In regards to Day 1 lynches, it's clear that I beat a dead horse. Sorry. I wanted something that would start discussion, so I chose a traditional topic. It has kick-started discussion, but I see where Wilson is coming from. The positions were pretty dead-set on the matter. Therefore, we should focus on other aspects of the game.

 

Speaking of other aspects of the game, let's talk about the mayor. In regards to the mayor, I doubt Darkfriends would actually want to be the mayor. It thrusts them into the spotlight, and it makes every action they do more suspicious. Plus, it's only one more vote, which isn't that powerful in the long run. My strategy this game is to use the mayor position as a random hot seat. If a darkfriend or padan fain is elected mayor, they're more likely to panic, and start contradicting themselves. That's why I proposed a random system for the mayor position. It allows everyone an equal chance at the hot seat, which allows us to find Eliminators that are trying to go under the radar. With that being said, Stawman, why are you just voting for the popular choice? Just like a bandwagon on the lynch vote, a bandwagon on the mayor vote doesn't help us either. At least give some reasoning for your vote. Since I'm voting for him, I have to retract my vote for Rubik. I don't like taking a poke vote off before the person responds, but I feel like knowing Strawman's reasoning is a little more pressing.

[Mailliw73]

Maill, forgive me if I still doubt your claims. It's you. But I'll keep them in mind, I suppose. Happy?

I guess that's all I can ask for. Though, considering something I was told recently in a dead doc, I was considering playing this game 100% openly and honestly. So, I'll start now: That role claim was a lie. From now on, I will not attempt to mislead or lie to anyone. I may refuse to answer some questions though. Sound good? Good.

Lopen, I'm on mobile most of this weekend, so I won't be posting as much or as long as normal.

I actually agree with Orlok's post almost entirely.

Also, I have decided where my vote for this cycle will go. You should see it before rollover time today.

Gamma, if I green El's name here, does that work or do I have to green out the original post?

[Bugsy]

Honestly, I completely agree with Orlok's remarks on D1 discussion about whether the lynch should occur. Still, though, it seems like most of the suspicions with any form of logic behind them (meaning non gut-reads) are based on support or lack there of for Sarah. Despite me not being inordinately suspicious of her, I feel lynching her could either dismiss those suspicions or lend them some credence, so I feel like we should actually target her for the lynch. Sarah

If I'm missing something blindingly obvious, I just got home so I've only been able to scan pages 3 and 4. I'll start reading them in depth now.

Edited to recolor vote

Edited June 4, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[Araris Valerian]

Alain stood outside his house, splitting logs for firewood and pondering on the day's events. The Mayor had been murdered, and of course the whole town was in an uproar about Darkfriends being responsible. Alain wasn't quite so sure though. Sometimes, the noisy solution wasn't the right one. Still, the village had made its decision, and he would go along. Alain paused at his work and turn his axe slowly around in his hands. He had a bad feeling that before this was all over, it would be chopping more than lumber.

 

So I guess the two things that have stood out to me the most are similar statements that Seonid and Nyali made. Both of them went after Meta for being quick to place a second vote on a player. But that is how you lynch somebody; by placing multiple votes on them. So both of those posts struck me as something to detract from the early parts of the lynch discussion by discouraging people to actually move the vote toward a definite lynch.

[Seonid]

Alain stood outside his house, splitting logs for firewood and pondering on the day's events. The Mayor had been murdered, and of course the whole town was in an uproar about Darkfriends being responsible. Alain wasn't quite so sure though. Sometimes, the noisy solution wasn't the right one. Still, the village had made its decision, and he would go along. Alain paused at his work and turn his axe slowly around in his hands. He had a bad feeling that before this was all over, it would be chopping more than lumber.

 

So I guess the two things that have stood out to me the most are similar statements that Seonid and Nyali made. Both of them went after Meta for being quick to place a second vote on a player. But that is how you lynch somebody; by placing multiple votes on them. So both of those posts struck me as something to detract from the early parts of the lynch discussion by discouraging people to actually move the vote toward a definite lynch.

 

That's a fair point you make, Araris, but it misses the point of my objection. Sure, lynching is done by placing multiple votes on a player. But putting multiple votes in quick succession on a player is called bandwagoning, and is perceived to be a common Eliminator tool. It wasn't the second vote I was concerned about, it was that the second vote came so quickly after the first. If the village decides too quickly on a lynch target, it stifles discussion in the same ways that the Day 1 Lynch discussion does. If you already know who you are going to lynch, why say anything? If a palyer knows that they won't get lynched, why should they answer any questions that are asked? The discussion loses its teeth if someone is up for the lynch by a large margin just as surely as if the village decides not to lynch at all in a cycle.

 

I've seen it before time and again - most often when an Eliminator is found via scanning, but bandwagoning can happen in a number of situations. And almost every time a bandwagon happens - even when it's on a known Eliminator! - the village learns next to nothing because the discussion was stunted.

 

Now, of course, I could have said that clearer, but I was at work and on mobile, so my ability to respond was limited. Sorry.

 

And, of course, Meta's second vote hasn't turned into a bandwagon. But at the time, with the votes coming within two hours of each other at the very beginning of the first cycle, it seemed a legitimate concern. And I would still like a response from him - if I want the Village lynch to have teeth, I have to make sure that my vote has teeth too.

[Conquestor]

Sorry I haven't said much, I was on the road without wifi. I was visiting a friends house, but am back now!

I have only skimmed through everything so far, but understand a few things. I want Mezal to be mayor and agree that Lexaven has been suspicious, but am not going to vote for her yet.

 

Lorien woke up in the taveren and tried to get up, but was sore all over. He looked around and saw the chaos of what was happening. He went to his house and put his gear on. He then went to try and put order back in his town. "Everyone needs to calm down and talk abut what they saw last night," Lorien said to people as he passed them. He walked over to Mezal the blacksmith and saw that he was getting everyone to find clues about the mayors murder. "I am glad for you old friend," he said to Mezal with a smile. "You would make a geat leader!"

[GunshyMink74]

Gunshy waved his customer off as he left the store. He was glad the man was gone, it had seemed like he would never leave. Right as Gunshy turned around to re-enter his shop, a sudden commotion at the tavern down the street caught his attention. Deciding to investigate, Gunshy approached the tavern cautiously. A chair crashed through the window next to him, mere inches from colliding with him. Cursing himself for almost getting hit, he thought "This isn't your average bar fight." He slowly approached the door to the tavern. Just as he was about to open the door, someone on the other side came barreling through, knocking Gunshy down in the process of his hasty escape. Laying on the ground, Gunshy rubbed his head. His vision was swimming as he watched the figure run off. He couldn't tell exactly who it was through his blurry vision, but he thought that he had a pretty good idea of who or what it was.

 

Gunshy, still rubbing his head, collected himself up off the ground and entered the tavern. He was greeted with a sight that made him sick to his stomach. Wounded villagers were strewn across the whole tavern. He couldn't tell how many were dead versus injured. Struggling to keep his lunch down, Gunshy started to look for survivors who could tell him what had happened here. He wasn't a doctor, so he decided to start with those who were conscious. After piecing together bit of information from the various wounded, he came to the conclusion that the stranger who had run him over at the door to the tavern had accused a patron at the bar of something, and that had turned everyone's pent-up suspicion into an inferno of anger against whomever they were suspicious of. 

 

Satisfied, Gunshy made to leave the tavern, but then something caught his eye. It was they Mayor, lying dead on the ground. "What a shame" Gunshy thought un-sarcastically as he left the tavern. He was greeted out on the street by a crowd of villagers armed with torches and various farming implements. "Now what?" he thought. He tried to ask a few of the villagers, but his words were completely overran by random shouting. Then, Mezal came out and struck a large gong. With a reverberating crash, the mass of villagers fell silent. He quickly organized the villagers and gave them an objective to follow: look for clues. "Now this is a man I can get behind," he thought. He was about to ask Mezal about the figure he had seen run from the tavern, but the blacksmith was already gone. 

 

Gunshy decide to follow the blacksmith's advice and look for clues. He returned to the tavern to look for clues, but found nothing. He searched all over, but found no trace of whoever had started the fight at the tavern. Genuinely puzzled, Gunshy returned to his shop. He sat down behind the counter and tried to remember anything he could about the figure from the tavern. But he was too tired to think straight. The nightmares that had been plaguing him recently had left him drained. he decided to take a nap and try to get some shut-eye. 

[Nyali]

So I guess the two things that have stood out to me the most are similar statements that Seonid and Nyali made. Both of them went after Meta for being quick to place a second vote on a player. But that is how you lynch somebody; by placing multiple votes on them. So both of those posts struck me as something to detract from the early parts of the lynch discussion by discouraging people to actually move the vote toward a definite lynch.

 

You're putting a lot of emphasis on a statement of "Second votes on day one are often made by eliminators" and somehow equating that to me "going after" Mezal. It happened to be wind up being true surprisingly often on the forum where I used to play mafia. Yes, "surprisingly often" only equates to about half the time, and half the time is not all the time. Yet, it was also true in LG20, my first game here, so the trend isn't exactly dismissable. It's something that I always consider as a source of very low suspicion. Not useful by itself, but worth noting in case of future tells.

 

Yes, of course someone has to make the second vote to lynch someone, and day one lynches are important. I'm not saying we shouldn't be voting for people who have votes. I'm just saying that, looking back objectively, second votes on the first few people on day 1 are often made by eliminators. The reason is that mob mentality doesn't see one person's suspicions or vote as meaningful, generally. But, once a second person backs them up, suddenly it's serious and more people start suspecting the target. An eliminator placing that vote, then letting the lynch train take on a life of its own without any further need of prodding (and later even retracting their vote), is a solid eliminator tactic that happens. What stopped it on the forum I used to play on was people realizing that this tactic was being used often, so instead eliminators started doing the opposite. Waiting for a non-eliminator to place that second vote and a small train to form, and then slamming the person who placed that second vote.

 

But anyway.

 

 

Sarah, that's a lot of public questions about how Ta'veren work. Are you intending that to be a roleclaim? Is the Ta'veren even a town-only role? In the rules, it's in blue, so that's confusing. And to answer one of your questions, Ta'veren can affect the Dragon's Fang vote. That vote is treated like an action and can be affected by anything that hits an action - it's in the rule clarifications for Day 1 in the second post of this topic.

[TheMightyLopen]

Lopen, I'm on mobile most of this weekend, so I won't be posting as much or as long as normal.

 

Ah, I think that would explain it. I was thinking your posts seemed a bit different somehow, but not really in a suspicious way.

 

And Stink, I meant that I personally can't read you very well. Remember LG17? It took a lot of convincing to get me to think you were a villager even though you'd posted quite a bit in that game. So while I do have a small village read on you, I'm not sure how much weight to put behind that read.

 

Eryn, the Ta'veren role is in blue because it was a secret role we unlocked and so Gamma edited it in to the OP once we hit a specific number of players needed to unlock the role. It's not village only as far as I'm aware.

[STINK]

Oh yeah, the game where I tried to lynch an eliminator and at the same time trusted an eliminator that had outed the eliminator I was trying to lynch? Rae, you still salty over that?

 

Seonid, 'cause I'm evil.

Edited June 4, 2016 by IrulelikeSTINK

[the winter system]

Oh yeah, the game where I tried to lynch an eliminator and at the same time trusted an eliminator that had outed the eliminator I was trying to lynch? Rae, you still salty over that?

 

Seonid, 'cause I'm evil.

Emphasis mine. 

Wait... what? Is this some kinda troll or what? 

[STINK]

Na, I'm using double reverse psychology to influence the mindscape of the candidates so that for Phase 5 of my operation no-one questions the triple reverse psychology that makes you think I'm good and then I murder you all.

[GunshyMink74]

Na, I'm using double reverse psychology to influence the mindscape of the candidates so that for Phase 5 of my operation no-one questions the triple reverse psychology that makes you think I'm good and then I murder you all.

 

Wouldn't that be completely useless since you just told us your whole plan? But what if that wasn't the whole plan... What if having us think we knew your plan even though we didn't was some kind of insane reverse-psychology trick? What if this whole thread is just a mind game orchestrated by Stink? The world may never know...

[the winter system]

If you're evil, then I can't be because of rule clause 7.45 in the secret ruleset which I've been sent by Gamma! 

[Gamma Fiend]

• Do people know when they're being controlled by the Ta'veren?
• What happens if a Ta'veren controls a Chaneller?
• What happens if they control the Forsaken?
• What happens if Padan Fain is controlled?
• Are Thief-Takers and White Cloaks affected by Ta'veren?
• If you're vanilla, do the Ta'veren control your dragon fang?

Some clarifications for Ta'veren!

No, you aren't notified if targeted by a Ta'veren

Ta'veren redirects all actions, including any channeler weaves, forsaken kills, and corruption choices. Pending no roleblocks, of course.

Since thief-takers and whitecloaks send in actions during the day, they can not be redirected by Ta'veren

And yes, the Dragon Fang can be redirected by Ta'veren.

 

Also, for any lynch votes, I'd prefer it if you greened out any retracted votes in the original post with it, just so I'm not counting a bunch of red votes to cross out later on, but I won't penalize any votes that aren't and will make sure to doublecheck on all reds and greens. Thank you!

Edited June 3, 2016 by Gamma Fiend

[Mailliw73]

What about Mayor votes? Can I retract them without greening out the original?