Long Game 22: Corenne al'Daishar

[Bugsy he/him]

Honestly, I completely agree with Orlok's remarks on D1 discussion about whether the lynch should occur. Still, though, it seems like most of the suspicions with any form of logic behind them (meaning non gut-reads) are based on support or lack there of for Sarah. Despite me not being inordinately suspicious of her, I feel lynching her could either dismiss those suspicions or lend them some credence, so I feel like we should actually target her for the lynch. Sarah

If I'm missing something blindingly obvious, I just got home so I've only been able to scan pages 3 and 4. I'll start reading them in depth now.

Edited to recolor vote

Edited June 4, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Alain stood outside his house, splitting logs for firewood and pondering on the day's events. The Mayor had been murdered, and of course the whole town was in an uproar about Darkfriends being responsible. Alain wasn't quite so sure though. Sometimes, the noisy solution wasn't the right one. Still, the village had made its decision, and he would go along. Alain paused at his work and turn his axe slowly around in his hands. He had a bad feeling that before this was all over, it would be chopping more than lumber.

 

So I guess the two things that have stood out to me the most are similar statements that Seonid and Nyali made. Both of them went after Meta for being quick to place a second vote on a player. But that is how you lynch somebody; by placing multiple votes on them. So both of those posts struck me as something to detract from the early parts of the lynch discussion by discouraging people to actually move the vote toward a definite lynch.

[Seonid he/him]

Alain stood outside his house, splitting logs for firewood and pondering on the day's events. The Mayor had been murdered, and of course the whole town was in an uproar about Darkfriends being responsible. Alain wasn't quite so sure though. Sometimes, the noisy solution wasn't the right one. Still, the village had made its decision, and he would go along. Alain paused at his work and turn his axe slowly around in his hands. He had a bad feeling that before this was all over, it would be chopping more than lumber.

 

So I guess the two things that have stood out to me the most are similar statements that Seonid and Nyali made. Both of them went after Meta for being quick to place a second vote on a player. But that is how you lynch somebody; by placing multiple votes on them. So both of those posts struck me as something to detract from the early parts of the lynch discussion by discouraging people to actually move the vote toward a definite lynch.

 

That's a fair point you make, Araris, but it misses the point of my objection. Sure, lynching is done by placing multiple votes on a player. But putting multiple votes in quick succession on a player is called bandwagoning, and is perceived to be a common Eliminator tool. It wasn't the second vote I was concerned about, it was that the second vote came so quickly after the first. If the village decides too quickly on a lynch target, it stifles discussion in the same ways that the Day 1 Lynch discussion does. If you already know who you are going to lynch, why say anything? If a palyer knows that they won't get lynched, why should they answer any questions that are asked? The discussion loses its teeth if someone is up for the lynch by a large margin just as surely as if the village decides not to lynch at all in a cycle.

 

I've seen it before time and again - most often when an Eliminator is found via scanning, but bandwagoning can happen in a number of situations. And almost every time a bandwagon happens - even when it's on a known Eliminator! - the village learns next to nothing because the discussion was stunted.

 

Now, of course, I could have said that clearer, but I was at work and on mobile, so my ability to respond was limited. Sorry.

 

And, of course, Meta's second vote hasn't turned into a bandwagon. But at the time, with the votes coming within two hours of each other at the very beginning of the first cycle, it seemed a legitimate concern. And I would still like a response from him - if I want the Village lynch to have teeth, I have to make sure that my vote has teeth too.

[Conquestor he/him]

Sorry I haven't said much, I was on the road without wifi. I was visiting a friends house, but am back now!

I have only skimmed through everything so far, but understand a few things. I want Mezal to be mayor and agree that Lexaven has been suspicious, but am not going to vote for her yet.

 

Lorien woke up in the taveren and tried to get up, but was sore all over. He looked around and saw the chaos of what was happening. He went to his house and put his gear on. He then went to try and put order back in his town. "Everyone needs to calm down and talk abut what they saw last night," Lorien said to people as he passed them. He walked over to Mezal the blacksmith and saw that he was getting everyone to find clues about the mayors murder. "I am glad for you old friend," he said to Mezal with a smile. "You would make a geat leader!"

[GunshyMink74 he/him]

Gunshy waved his customer off as he left the store. He was glad the man was gone, it had seemed like he would never leave. Right as Gunshy turned around to re-enter his shop, a sudden commotion at the tavern down the street caught his attention. Deciding to investigate, Gunshy approached the tavern cautiously. A chair crashed through the window next to him, mere inches from colliding with him. Cursing himself for almost getting hit, he thought "This isn't your average bar fight." He slowly approached the door to the tavern. Just as he was about to open the door, someone on the other side came barreling through, knocking Gunshy down in the process of his hasty escape. Laying on the ground, Gunshy rubbed his head. His vision was swimming as he watched the figure run off. He couldn't tell exactly who it was through his blurry vision, but he thought that he had a pretty good idea of who or what it was.

 

Gunshy, still rubbing his head, collected himself up off the ground and entered the tavern. He was greeted with a sight that made him sick to his stomach. Wounded villagers were strewn across the whole tavern. He couldn't tell how many were dead versus injured. Struggling to keep his lunch down, Gunshy started to look for survivors who could tell him what had happened here. He wasn't a doctor, so he decided to start with those who were conscious. After piecing together bit of information from the various wounded, he came to the conclusion that the stranger who had run him over at the door to the tavern had accused a patron at the bar of something, and that had turned everyone's pent-up suspicion into an inferno of anger against whomever they were suspicious of. 

 

Satisfied, Gunshy made to leave the tavern, but then something caught his eye. It was they Mayor, lying dead on the ground. "What a shame" Gunshy thought un-sarcastically as he left the tavern. He was greeted out on the street by a crowd of villagers armed with torches and various farming implements. "Now what?" he thought. He tried to ask a few of the villagers, but his words were completely overran by random shouting. Then, Mezal came out and struck a large gong. With a reverberating crash, the mass of villagers fell silent. He quickly organized the villagers and gave them an objective to follow: look for clues. "Now this is a man I can get behind," he thought. He was about to ask Mezal about the figure he had seen run from the tavern, but the blacksmith was already gone. 

 

Gunshy decide to follow the blacksmith's advice and look for clues. He returned to the tavern to look for clues, but found nothing. He searched all over, but found no trace of whoever had started the fight at the tavern. Genuinely puzzled, Gunshy returned to his shop. He sat down behind the counter and tried to remember anything he could about the figure from the tavern. But he was too tired to think straight. The nightmares that had been plaguing him recently had left him drained. he decided to take a nap and try to get some shut-eye. 

[Nyali she/her]

So I guess the two things that have stood out to me the most are similar statements that Seonid and Nyali made. Both of them went after Meta for being quick to place a second vote on a player. But that is how you lynch somebody; by placing multiple votes on them. So both of those posts struck me as something to detract from the early parts of the lynch discussion by discouraging people to actually move the vote toward a definite lynch.

 

You're putting a lot of emphasis on a statement of "Second votes on day one are often made by eliminators" and somehow equating that to me "going after" Mezal. It happened to be wind up being true surprisingly often on the forum where I used to play mafia. Yes, "surprisingly often" only equates to about half the time, and half the time is not all the time. Yet, it was also true in LG20, my first game here, so the trend isn't exactly dismissable. It's something that I always consider as a source of very low suspicion. Not useful by itself, but worth noting in case of future tells.

 

Yes, of course someone has to make the second vote to lynch someone, and day one lynches are important. I'm not saying we shouldn't be voting for people who have votes. I'm just saying that, looking back objectively, second votes on the first few people on day 1 are often made by eliminators. The reason is that mob mentality doesn't see one person's suspicions or vote as meaningful, generally. But, once a second person backs them up, suddenly it's serious and more people start suspecting the target. An eliminator placing that vote, then letting the lynch train take on a life of its own without any further need of prodding (and later even retracting their vote), is a solid eliminator tactic that happens. What stopped it on the forum I used to play on was people realizing that this tactic was being used often, so instead eliminators started doing the opposite. Waiting for a non-eliminator to place that second vote and a small train to form, and then slamming the person who placed that second vote.

 

But anyway.

 

 

Sarah, that's a lot of public questions about how Ta'veren work. Are you intending that to be a roleclaim? Is the Ta'veren even a town-only role? In the rules, it's in blue, so that's confusing. And to answer one of your questions, Ta'veren can affect the Dragon's Fang vote. That vote is treated like an action and can be affected by anything that hits an action - it's in the rule clarifications for Day 1 in the second post of this topic.

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Lopen, I'm on mobile most of this weekend, so I won't be posting as much or as long as normal.

 

Ah, I think that would explain it. I was thinking your posts seemed a bit different somehow, but not really in a suspicious way.

 

And Stink, I meant that I personally can't read you very well. Remember LG17? It took a lot of convincing to get me to think you were a villager even though you'd posted quite a bit in that game. So while I do have a small village read on you, I'm not sure how much weight to put behind that read.

 

Eryn, the Ta'veren role is in blue because it was a secret role we unlocked and so Gamma edited it in to the OP once we hit a specific number of players needed to unlock the role. It's not village only as far as I'm aware.

[STINK he/him]

Oh yeah, the game where I tried to lynch an eliminator and at the same time trusted an eliminator that had outed the eliminator I was trying to lynch? Rae, you still salty over that?

 

Seonid, 'cause I'm evil.

Edited June 4, 2016 by IrulelikeSTINK

[STINK he/him]

Na, I'm using double reverse psychology to influence the mindscape of the candidates so that for Phase 5 of my operation no-one questions the triple reverse psychology that makes you think I'm good and then I murder you all.

[GunshyMink74 he/him]

Na, I'm using double reverse psychology to influence the mindscape of the candidates so that for Phase 5 of my operation no-one questions the triple reverse psychology that makes you think I'm good and then I murder you all.

 

Wouldn't that be completely useless since you just told us your whole plan? But what if that wasn't the whole plan... What if having us think we knew your plan even though we didn't was some kind of insane reverse-psychology trick? What if this whole thread is just a mind game orchestrated by Stink? The world may never know...

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

• Do people know when they're being controlled by the Ta'veren?
• What happens if a Ta'veren controls a Chaneller?
• What happens if they control the Forsaken?
• What happens if Padan Fain is controlled?
• Are Thief-Takers and White Cloaks affected by Ta'veren?
• If you're vanilla, do the Ta'veren control your dragon fang?

Some clarifications for Ta'veren!

No, you aren't notified if targeted by a Ta'veren

Ta'veren redirects all actions, including any channeler weaves, forsaken kills, and corruption choices. Pending no roleblocks, of course.

Since thief-takers and whitecloaks send in actions during the day, they can not be redirected by Ta'veren

And yes, the Dragon Fang can be redirected by Ta'veren.

 

Also, for any lynch votes, I'd prefer it if you greened out any retracted votes in the original post with it, just so I'm not counting a bunch of red votes to cross out later on, but I won't penalize any votes that aren't and will make sure to doublecheck on all reds and greens. Thank you!

Edited June 3, 2016 by Gamma Fiend

[Mailliw73 he/him]

What about Mayor votes? Can I retract them without greening out the original?

[Master Elodin]

Hey guys! I exist! Anyways, I don't completely trust Wilson because she seems like she's trying to draw suspicion towards others without actually saying much herself. Also I think that we should focus less on the corrupted right now and more on the Darkfriends, since they are more of a threat at the moment.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

What about Mayor votes? Can I retract them without greening out the original?

 

Just uncolor them from orange back to black. I'll only count orange votes at the end of the cycle for mayor.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Does anyone have a current vote tally?

[Hellscythe he/him]

Hey guys! I exist! Anyways, I don't completely trust Wilson because she seems like she's trying to draw suspicion towards others without actually saying much herself. Also I think that we should focus less on the corrupted right now and more on the Darkfriends, since they are more of a threat at the moment.

I'm not really sure what you're supposed to say about yourself. oh misread that. Much herself. I think she's said more than a fair amount in comparison to yourself friend Edited June 3, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Metacognition he/him]

Yes she has? I don't think her Kas impression is worthy of two mayor votes, but she's definitely posted.

 

But you seem to be overly paranoid about everyone right now and that doesn't seem to be safe, accusing people of voting for someone who hasn't posted (even tough Lomion did write a very well thought response to many arguments) makes me think you're jumping the gun and not being careful, I feel like you might be trying to stir the pot a little and it has me uneasy....

 

[ Eryn ]

Also, Lomion DID post, only once but substantially, and I thought the points made were sound. 

 

Thanks guys. I caught it the first time. This is why I shouldn't post right before going to bed! I even went back through the thread to make sure that Lomion hadn't posted before writing that and I still wound up skimming right past it. 

 

Meta's very quick jump towards placing a second vote on Sarah so early in the cycle is suspicious to me. Not extremely suspicious, but it feels off to me. I don't think a smart eliminator would do what he did, which means that is entirely possible that a very smart eliminator would do so.

 

By putting a second vote on Sarah, I did three things:

• One, I effectively made the entire argument about whether or not we should or shouldn't lynch a moot point.
• Two, I put pressure on Sarah to address the concerns people have had and to contribute more.
• Three, by creating a situation where someone is going to be lynched, it also opens up the conversation to see who is trying to defend against the lynch and who is trying to push for it. This is where we're most likely to find Darkfriends, as they'll want to try to defend or deflect votes away from their own so they won't be lynched. That's a huge part of what kind of discussion we should be looking for in the first place! This is why just stating that you're suspicious of someone doesn't have enough bite to draw the Darkfriends out; because their teammates don't have to really do anything to stop someone from being suspicious. 

And that's why I'm getting quite suspicious of the people that keep trying to claim that 2 votes on someone is a bandwagon or an attempt on one.

Can anyone show me a game from recently where there was more than only a couple votes for someone to be lynched on the first day? How about a game recently where more than half the players in the game even wound up voting? 

My point is that it seems like you're all worrying about something that just doesn't really happen here in the first place. Why? Cause to me, it looks a bit like you're trying subtly to get votes removed from Sarah at the moment. 

 

Now, if a true bandwagon had formed, then I would've been one of the first to call it out for such. In fact, because we have so few people voting recently, we've lost the ability to learn as much from the votes. If a bandwagon had formed, we could feel a bit more secure in the idea that the Darkfriends were okay with our lynching choice and could start searching elsewhere. 

 

As far as my aggressiveness goes, all I can say is that's how I play. I make accusations so that people have to defend against them. This gets them talking and gives other people something to respond to as well. Trust me when I say that none of my suspicions are concrete yet.

 

I've just caught up, so I'll add my thoughts about where my thoughts are now in a bit. I want to do another reread beforehand. Not to mention that there's been multiple posts just while I've been typing this!

Edited June 3, 2016 by Metacognition

[Master Elodin]

I'm not really sure what you're supposed to say about yourself.

"Hey guys Gamma just pmed me! It was green. I'm village."

Or

"Wow am I playing like an eliminator! My posts are very suspicious and seem to be trying to get the village off-topic without saying anything pertinent to the discussion at hand."

What do you mean by this? I'm very confused.

EDIT: In response to HS. I had a reason for being inactive, and regardless your argument is tangential at best when you are trying to prove one person's innocence by saying "Well, you're not better than them".

- Master Elodin

Edited June 3, 2016 by Master Elodin

[Hellscythe he/him]

I edited my post. Apologies I misread yours. I thought you were asking her to talk more about herself and less about her suspiciouns.

[Master Elodin]

It's ok. I'm sorry I got angry, I've just had a rough day. Anyways, can the people who have voted Elb for mayor please explain rather than just saying "I agree"?

[STINK he/him]

^ I agree.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I put the first vote on Elbereth, because I think Lomion would be a good mayor. Really though, I respect El as a player and I would like to see what she does with her extra vote. I also like the idea of moving the mayor around, if not every cycle, then every other one. The last reason was that I'm not sure I want Meta to have an extra vote. 

[STINK he/him]

Alright, character time.

 

Introducing Phil Bill. Notorious for never shutting up. Has received over 100 threats relating to his mouth being shut by others. Phil Bill has nothing to do with the movie 'Kill Bill', as some people have managed to confuse the two. Don't ask Phil why, he's only seen up to the bit where it goes like 'WEEEEE-WOOOO' and the woman in yellow fights the random lady in the house. Some people say that Phil Bill is actually two people merged into one, 'cause sometimes he just sits there in silence contemplating things. Phil says that these are lies. Bill hasn't commented yet. 

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Here's a vote tally. I think it's completely up to date, but I haven't gone back through all the Mayor votes.

 

Lynch votes:

 

Sarah/Sart(3): Keland, Mezal, Bugsy

Keland/Wilson(1): Birgitte

Lorien/Conquestor(1): Cenn

Trafalgar/DeathClutch(1): Tazrim(although this vote isn't colored the usual red color Hellsycthe, fyi)

Aan-alline/phattemer(1): Eryn

Douza/Twei(1): Jak

Gladium/Strawman(1): Sarah

Cenn/Seonid(2): Alain, Phil Bill

 

Mayor votes:

 

Mezal/Meta(3): Mezal, Keland, Lorien

Jak/Lopen(2): Jak, Sarah

Lomion/Elbereth(2): Amaiya, Gladium

Tazrim/Hellscythe(1): Tazrim

[STINK he/him]

What's this? I can make more people vote for mayors if they want one? Sign me up for that, Mayor Jak/Lopen.