Long Game 22: Corenne al'Daishar

[Master Elodin]

Hey guys! I exist! Anyways, I don't completely trust Wilson because she seems like she's trying to draw suspicion towards others without actually saying much herself. Also I think that we should focus less on the corrupted right now and more on the Darkfriends, since they are more of a threat at the moment.

[Gamma Fiend]

What about Mayor votes? Can I retract them without greening out the original?

 

Just uncolor them from orange back to black. I'll only count orange votes at the end of the cycle for mayor.

[Mailliw73]

Does anyone have a current vote tally?

[Hellscythe]

Hey guys! I exist! Anyways, I don't completely trust Wilson because she seems like she's trying to draw suspicion towards others without actually saying much herself. Also I think that we should focus less on the corrupted right now and more on the Darkfriends, since they are more of a threat at the moment.

I'm not really sure what you're supposed to say about yourself. oh misread that. Much herself. I think she's said more than a fair amount in comparison to yourself friend Edited June 3, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Metacognition]

Yes she has? I don't think her Kas impression is worthy of two mayor votes, but she's definitely posted.

 

But you seem to be overly paranoid about everyone right now and that doesn't seem to be safe, accusing people of voting for someone who hasn't posted (even tough Lomion did write a very well thought response to many arguments) makes me think you're jumping the gun and not being careful, I feel like you might be trying to stir the pot a little and it has me uneasy....

 

[ Eryn ]

Also, Lomion DID post, only once but substantially, and I thought the points made were sound. 

 

Thanks guys. I caught it the first time. This is why I shouldn't post right before going to bed! I even went back through the thread to make sure that Lomion hadn't posted before writing that and I still wound up skimming right past it. 

 

Meta's very quick jump towards placing a second vote on Sarah so early in the cycle is suspicious to me. Not extremely suspicious, but it feels off to me. I don't think a smart eliminator would do what he did, which means that is entirely possible that a very smart eliminator would do so.

 

By putting a second vote on Sarah, I did three things:

• One, I effectively made the entire argument about whether or not we should or shouldn't lynch a moot point.
• Two, I put pressure on Sarah to address the concerns people have had and to contribute more.
• Three, by creating a situation where someone is going to be lynched, it also opens up the conversation to see who is trying to defend against the lynch and who is trying to push for it. This is where we're most likely to find Darkfriends, as they'll want to try to defend or deflect votes away from their own so they won't be lynched. That's a huge part of what kind of discussion we should be looking for in the first place! This is why just stating that you're suspicious of someone doesn't have enough bite to draw the Darkfriends out; because their teammates don't have to really do anything to stop someone from being suspicious. 

And that's why I'm getting quite suspicious of the people that keep trying to claim that 2 votes on someone is a bandwagon or an attempt on one.

Can anyone show me a game from recently where there was more than only a couple votes for someone to be lynched on the first day? How about a game recently where more than half the players in the game even wound up voting? 

My point is that it seems like you're all worrying about something that just doesn't really happen here in the first place. Why? Cause to me, it looks a bit like you're trying subtly to get votes removed from Sarah at the moment. 

 

Now, if a true bandwagon had formed, then I would've been one of the first to call it out for such. In fact, because we have so few people voting recently, we've lost the ability to learn as much from the votes. If a bandwagon had formed, we could feel a bit more secure in the idea that the Darkfriends were okay with our lynching choice and could start searching elsewhere. 

 

As far as my aggressiveness goes, all I can say is that's how I play. I make accusations so that people have to defend against them. This gets them talking and gives other people something to respond to as well. Trust me when I say that none of my suspicions are concrete yet.

 

I've just caught up, so I'll add my thoughts about where my thoughts are now in a bit. I want to do another reread beforehand. Not to mention that there's been multiple posts just while I've been typing this!

Edited June 3, 2016 by Metacognition

[Master Elodin]

I'm not really sure what you're supposed to say about yourself.

"Hey guys Gamma just pmed me! It was green. I'm village."

Or

"Wow am I playing like an eliminator! My posts are very suspicious and seem to be trying to get the village off-topic without saying anything pertinent to the discussion at hand."

What do you mean by this? I'm very confused.

EDIT: In response to HS. I had a reason for being inactive, and regardless your argument is tangential at best when you are trying to prove one person's innocence by saying "Well, you're not better than them".

- Master Elodin

Edited June 3, 2016 by Master Elodin

[the winter system]

I suppose that makes a bit of sense. Consider my suspicions lessened. 

[Hellscythe]

I edited my post. Apologies I misread yours. I thought you were asking her to talk more about herself and less about her suspiciouns.

[Master Elodin]

It's ok. I'm sorry I got angry, I've just had a rough day. Anyways, can the people who have voted Elb for mayor please explain rather than just saying "I agree"?

[STINK]

^ I agree.

[Mailliw73]

I put the first vote on Elbereth, because I think Lomion would be a good mayor. Really though, I respect El as a player and I would like to see what she does with her extra vote. I also like the idea of moving the mayor around, if not every cycle, then every other one. The last reason was that I'm not sure I want Meta to have an extra vote. 

[STINK]

Alright, character time.

 

Introducing Phil Bill. Notorious for never shutting up. Has received over 100 threats relating to his mouth being shut by others. Phil Bill has nothing to do with the movie 'Kill Bill', as some people have managed to confuse the two. Don't ask Phil why, he's only seen up to the bit where it goes like 'WEEEEE-WOOOO' and the woman in yellow fights the random lady in the house. Some people say that Phil Bill is actually two people merged into one, 'cause sometimes he just sits there in silence contemplating things. Phil says that these are lies. Bill hasn't commented yet. 

[TheMightyLopen]

Here's a vote tally. I think it's completely up to date, but I haven't gone back through all the Mayor votes.

 

Lynch votes:

 

Sarah/Sart(3): Keland, Mezal, Bugsy

Keland/Wilson(1): Birgitte

Lorien/Conquestor(1): Cenn

Trafalgar/DeathClutch(1): Tazrim(although this vote isn't colored the usual red color Hellsycthe, fyi)

Aan-alline/phattemer(1): Eryn

Douza/Twei(1): Jak

Gladium/Strawman(1): Sarah

Cenn/Seonid(2): Alain, Phil Bill

 

Mayor votes:

 

Mezal/Meta(3): Mezal, Keland, Lorien

Jak/Lopen(2): Jak, Sarah

Lomion/Elbereth(2): Amaiya, Gladium

Tazrim/Hellscythe(1): Tazrim

[STINK]

What's this? I can make more people vote for mayors if they want one? Sign me up for that, Mayor Jak/Lopen.

[TheMightyLopen]

What's this? I can make more people vote for mayors if they want one? Sign me up for that, Mayor Jak/Lopen.

 

Well, it appears that the voting is neck and neck between myself and Meta. Who will be the winning candidate? Stay tuned!

 

Anyways, if I do get voted in as Mayor, I'll make sure to do a bit or RP to commemorate the occasion, but don't expect too much. >> I don't really expect to be voted in, since hardly anyone has said anything positive about me so far(for as much as I've posted, no one has really said much at all about me), but I have 3 votes on me, so it could happen!

[Conquestor]

Well, it appears that the voting is neck and neck between myself and Meta. Who will be the winning candidate? Stay tuned!

 

Anyways, if I do get voted in as Mayor, I'll make sure to do a bit or RP to commemorate the occasion, but don't expect too much. >> I don't really expect to be voted in, since hardly anyone has said anything positive about me so far(for as much as I've posted, no one has really said much at all about me), but I have 3 votes on me, so it could happen!

Unless Stink is drawing you into a trap.   On another note, if Winter is the so suspicious to everyone, why isn't anyone voting for her? You don't say "I think they're the most suspicious", but then vote for someone else. It just doesn't make sense!

[the winter system]

I seriously don't understand why I'm so suspicious. Again, this is all pretty normal behavior for me. 

 

From what I can tell, it's "you're inconsistent" -- which I was convinced by a post -- and also "stop being suspicious of meta, all must trust him." I've already said I'm slightly less suspicious of him, due to his post, but it's kinda annoying. 

Seriously. Can people not accept I can change my mind? 

[Master Elodin]

I agree, the suspicion on Winter is a little overdone.

[Elbereth]

Right, I managed to get some time, happily. So, lots of thoughts.

First is something of a comment that I wrote up earlier without internet access, in response to Meta's suspicion on Lopen/Sart for being Darkfriend companions. Parts have been made obsolete or already said, but I think it's still worth saying:

Regarding Meta's point againts Lopen - I agree that it's not a very valid point for actual suspicion (regardless of whether it actually is actual suspicion, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it wasn't). That seems like a very risky eliminator move at the beginning of the game without much benefit. It's the first cycle. It's not all that likely that we'll actually lynch an eliminator, and if we did but the mayor managed to reverse that, both the lynchee and the mayor would immediately fall under suspicion. Sure, the Mayor may stick around for a few cycles (although I kind of doubt it - particularly since people are definitely going to get paranoid about whoever's currently in power), but as Nyali commented, it seems like more of an endgame thing, at least as far as usefulness to the eliminators go.

Now, the Mayor is useful early game. But I'd argue that it's not so useful for its vote manipulation power, really. It's useful because of the increased attention focused on the Mayor. It's a subject of discussion, for one, and it's a very good way of showing who people trust. And more than that, it puts a lot of responsibility on the Mayor, and we get to see what he/she does with that. In fact, I'd say it'd be almost strategic to elect people we suspect and see what they do with their powers.

I say almost, of course, because putting power into the hands of people we think are our enemies just to see what happens seems... unwise. And plus, we already have a lynch for suspicions. Use that, if you want to accuse someone. This is essentially the opposite: Who do you trust? Which is nearly as useful, I'd say, and having both elections is almost two lynches for the price of one, in a way.

That's as far as I got with that. I was going to go into maybe electing newer players to see what they did with the power, but several people have said similar things, so I won't bother.

Right, onto the multiquotes.

[ Eryn ]

Oh, was Burnt not actually ever Odium's champion? I didn't really look back that closely at the game. Still, I think the point is fair, even if my example isn't a good one.

Yeah, she wasn't. She was a Sharder the whole time. But agreed.

 

I still like Lomion's posts, but I'm retracting my mayoral vote on her. Gladium's post just worries me.

You're not alone... To be fair, it is somewhat typical of Strawman to do something like that.

Doesn't mean I like it.

 

Now, I'm going to make myself unpopular, and speak up for a moment to defend Sart. Now, it's all very well following Kas' excellent tenets, but not everyone does - and I think it is as such necessary to establish that we're going to have a lynch.

Beginning this conversation isn't, in my mind, a lynch-worthy offence. I can recall a great deal of conversations about this in previous games, many of them insitgated by villagers.

If anything, having the conversation creates subject matter for discussion, which enables a more informed lynch.

Now, let's be clear - I think that having a day one lynch as a matter of course is better - and does gain more information. But I don't think it was possible to assume at the start of the game that we were going to have one, so starting a conversation isn't a tactic for diverting conversation - rather, for creating conversation.

Now, regarding the mayor. I'm not sure I support giving more power to a player like Meta or Wilson. Both are widely respected in this subforum, and have illustrious reputations. Hence, we give their views a great deal of thought and value anyway - and also scrutinise them perhaps further. I would advocate giving the mayoralty to a lesser heard player, on the basis of increasing the exposure they receive in the thread, and not giving yet more power over the lynch to already influential players.

Two points from this post. First, the defense of Sart reminded me of a thought I had in his defense somewhat: Sart is a relatively infrequent player, now. He's played five games in all the time I've been here. And when he was playing more, there often actually was discussion of whether to have a D1 lynch. So from that perspective, it's easier to understand why he brought it up.

Do I think that should let him of the hook? No. I don't. It's not a good thing to bring up, and he's probably the person I'm most suspicious of at the moment. But he does have a different perspective, so I can kind of understand why he'd bring that up as a villager. (Also, my point doesn't actually clear him at all, because I'd say from that perspective he'd be equally likely to bring up D1 lynches as an eliminator or a villager. But I thought it was worth pointing out.)

Second. The last part of your post? Agreed. So, so much. We're already looking at active players in the lynch discussion like Meta, Wilson, Lopen, etc. The Mayor role might force some more reluctant or quieter players out of their comfort zone into the spotlight, and I think that would be a lot more revealing. So... hmm. The player I think would be most appropriate for what I'm proposing would be maybe Winter? But at the same time, I find her slightly suspicious, so I'm not currently willing to vote her Mayor (but also unwilling to actually vote for her, since it's slight suspicion). I think I'm going to abstain for now and try to vote tonight when I get on in four hours or so.

Personally, I was intrigued by the conversation about D1 Lynch... because I'm new and I think its important to understand the pro's and con's of something like this when you have never played before.  For you veterans of the game I could see how it would be annoying or seem like a distraction, but for me (and maybe anyone else new?) it wasn't really beating a dead horse so to speak....

 

I've noticed that several people have remained silent so far, and I'm wondering who is lurking in the shadows watching people pointing their fingers at each other, laughing to themselves as they plot the villagers demise....

Fair point. If I were at home, I'd probably be able to find a good discussion and link it to you for reference (or write one up myself inside a spoiler so no one has to read it unless they really want to). Unfortunately, I'm not, for the moment. So if anyone else wants to, please do. Otherwise, anyone who wants to talk about that kind of thing, PM me tonight and we can discuss it individually. (Normally I'd resort to that as the first course of action since that way no one else has to read it, but since there aren't any PMs during the day and the issue will be partly obsolete once night comes, given that the topic is D1 lynches.)

Alv is. He always is. (I don't expect you to understand that reference - he's not playing this game. But he definitely is watching from the shadows and probably laughing to himself, too.)

I guess that's all I can ask for. Though, considering something I was told recently in a dead doc, I was considering playing this game 100% openly and honestly. So, I'll start now: That role claim was a lie. From now on, I will not attempt to mislead or lie to anyone. I may refuse to answer some questions though. Sound good? Good.

Sounds good. I'll still retain paranoia, of course, but I recall that conversation and I'm actually willing to believe that. Maybe. Ish.

I put the first vote on Elbereth, because I think Lomion would be a good mayor. Really though, I respect El as a player and I would like to see what she does with her extra vote. I also like the idea of moving the mayor around, if not every cycle, then every other one. The last reason was that I'm not sure I want Meta to have an extra vote.

I mean... Look at what I did in LG16, when I was a Strongarm. (I only used it twice, once on Lopen and once on Twei. (the particular power changed their vote to my own)) Look at LG17, when I was Well-connected. (Used it twice, both times on Ripple, apparently. I died early that game, though.) Look at MR11. (Well, ish. It was only two-use, I used it once, and that wasn't my choice it was my teammates telling me what to do and me blindly following.) Look at LG18, actually, for a good example. I used it multiple times, never really to great effect or interesting differences. Mostly moving things onto the current undisputed lynch target or someone completely random. I liked moving players' votes onto themselves, and also moving my own vote. Oh, and I actually had four votes that game, but I never used them until I voted for Hael like 18 times in a row because I was irritated at him. (Which I'm not anymore, mostly, because I've gotten to kill him three times since then. That was enough to sate my thirst for vengeance.) That's... about all.

Now, obviously, these are different. They're vote manipulation, rather than an extra vote or a Soothing-type role. Neither of which I've technically had (except in LG18, in which I had Rioting, Soothing, and four votes, kinda), but I think my vote manipulation roles do seem to say I wouldn't do any better with this. I'm willing to try, but... I'm not really sure I'm the best candidate for that. At all.

Yeah.

I think that's enough for the moment. I'll be able to respond to people for another half hour or so, but then I get to go see a play! (Another play, actually! I already saw Great Expectations today, and it was fantastic.) So I'll be back for real around three-four hours from now.

[Haelbarde]

Okay, reading through everything, I'm finding myself particularly paranoid this game... :/ I'm thinking I'm going to vote Nyali for mayor - in a similar vein to Mailliw's vote for Elb, Nyali, while a newer player, as so far seemed to be quite insightful - think they'd make a good mayor, if a villager. I would have said Elb, but I'm wary of her now because of the last QF...

 

Re: Day 1 lynch - if we lynch someone, it 'solidifies' some of the information from the discussion leading up to it - we find out their role/alignment, and we get a better idea of how much players will stand by their claims, if there's a chance of death involved.

 

@Strawman - please actually give reasons for what you do. If you only post like that, I will lynch you. 

 

@Stink - trolling like that (the evil claim) only hurts the village. Please don't do it again...

[Mailliw73]

Hael. Sorry, you were the first to really fit the circumstances I had decided I'd vote for.

[Haelbarde]

Hael. Sorry, you were the first to really fit the circumstances I had decided I'd vote for.

Curious, what is/was your criteria?

[Mailliw73]

Curious, what is/was your criteria?

Good question. I was going to vote for the next person who discussed D1 lynches again. While there were a few aside from you, they only mentioned others' views on it or the discussion as a whole. None shared their own opinions of it. It's not a strong thing at all, but that's what I planned.

[Haelbarde]

Good question. I was going to vote for the next person who discussed D1 lynches again. While there were a few aside from you, they only mentioned others' views on it or the discussion as a whole. None shared their own opinions of it. It's not a strong thing at all, but that's what I planned.

Eh. Fair enough. 

 

Edit: Oddly enough, it actually makes me lean a little more towards you being village...

Edited June 4, 2016 by Haelbarde

[Mailliw73]

Eh. Fair enough. 

 

Edit: Oddly enough, it actually makes me lean a little more towards you being village...

I told you, this will be an upfront game for me.