Quick Fix Game 15: Death Note

[Elbereth]

I think Joe is probably a citizen, personally. If not, he's a very gutsy Holder. The plan does have advantages for a holder, since he could learn the identities of all the policemen/murderers, and the Ryuk could take out all of the policemen one by one, and know who not to convert. (And if the Ryuk does hit on someone that's unconvertable, it's guaranteed to be L.) Plus L is limited to scanning officers for a while, potentially, and not scanning Ryuk. But it seems somewhat more likely to me that he's a citizen, particularly with the speed that he put up that original plan.

Joe, we don't have to anymore, but I'd say we still lynch/kill you D2, so that we can confirm your alignment. Just in case.

About the lynch: Yeah, we definitely need to use it. We can't rely on L to catch Ryuk/the holder. Also, there's actually more of a chance of catching one of them than L, since there's two of them, and L could just claim and get out of the lynch, if necessary.

Um, I don't really understand why a mass reveal of murderers helps us. Can you clarify that?

(El, my character is trying to killfind L remember? So it's perfectly logical. Something that's not logical is you voting on me for changing my avatar when you just did so yourself. )

Oh, right. Forgot about that. Not used to you doing RP. Lopen. And I make sure to keep my avatar recognizable, thank you very much.

I propose that everyone willing to sacrifice themselves to help the village publicly volunteer to take part in this plan, allowing L to choose who to scan randomly without the risk of noncompliance. This will work much better the more volunteers we get

Plan:

C1: L chooses and scans a random volunteer

C2: Nothing, to allow L a second scanning day in case he turns up an elim

C3: Messages volunteer, who collects names of murderers + cops, and forwards them to L

C3 part 2: Volunteer is killed

As a show of good faith, I volunteer as tribute

I'm not sure why this is better than L just scanning Joe?

How do you know that Ryuk wouldn't fakeclaim as police? Joe

Even if he (or the Holder) does, he doesn't learn L's identity. If he claims to have protection duty, we don't tell them or the police who actually has duty. Then we scan one, and if innocent we kill the other.

Yeah, I'm not so sure about centralizing information at all, but here are three reasons that Joe would enact this plan.

1. He is Ryuk/Holder, trying to get as much info as possible.

2. He is L/a police officer, immune to corruption.

3. He is a villager making a risky choice.

I haven't played much with Joe, so I'll leave it up to all of you to decide which one is most like him.

If 1), he would definitely be Holder. Ryuk wouldn't put himself out like that. But as I say above, it's possible, though I personally don't think it's true.

2) is very unlikely indeed. He was volunteering to be lynched, at first. That's probably not something that a policeman would do, and definitely not something L would do.

3) is definitely most likely, to me.

Also, for the murders out there: iit might not be a good idea to kill an inactive. The eliminator team this game is only two people at a time, and it's unlikely that Ryuk will be inactive, since it is the big eliminator role. Even if Ryuk is inactive, chances are that you'll take out a lot of innocent people before hitting Ryuk.

I'd argue that the Ryuk is equally likely to be inactive as an eliminator in general, and might even tend more towards lurking, just so they don't draw attention to themselves.

Maill, I don't think finding a Holder would be a waste of a cycle.

And the pages of RP end....

Well. Not quite.

---

Elbe held still as he whispered in her ear, nearly flinching at his tone. Well. This level of personal vendetta was... unfortunate. She'd have to warn M.

"I won't lie. M would certainly kill you if it meant finding Kira sooner. Perhaps not happily, but he would. But your death would not help. Your skills, your life, is much more valuable than your death. Or you would already be dead. There's your proof that he values your lives."

She turned to address the whole group. "So what's it to be? Working together to find a common enemy, or working divided against each other, and letting Kira slaughter all of you? I'm not asking you to like M. He doesn't need that. I'm just asking you to tolerate him, just for this one time.

"If you agree to help M, write as much on a piece of paper in your room. He'll see."

Then she gestured to Sumiko. "Since you all don't care for those records, I'm sure our resident pyromaniac would love to do the honors."

Edited May 9, 2016 by Elbereth

[Mailliw73]

When I say a waste of a cycle, I mean that in the fact that if the Police protect Joe and he's a Holder, Ryuk is guaranteed to get his kill successfully. And, if the Murderer with the kill decides to use it, the Holder is protected. It also uses L's scan to learn something we'd have learned the next day anyways.

[A Joe in the Bush]

As many people have said, I could be a Holder, performing a high risk high gain play. I'm not, but that possibility exists. Which is why I'm irritated at the sheer amount of role reveals I've had. I meant to learn them tomorrow. Not today. I'm in contact with police, murderers, and most frighteningly, L. 

 

People, in this case, it worked out ok, because I'm not an eliminator, but there are times when Eliminators will do gambles like this, Especially disposable eliminators like the holder! Please don't be so trusting of someone, just because they offer themselves up to be lynched as part of a plan to help the village! If I was a Holder, I could do a cremload of damage right now.

 

That said, L, if you didn't contact me, then the Holder did. I haven't told L any of the names I've been given, and I won't until tomorrow. But if no other L contacts me, then I will assume that I'm in contact with the legit L, and reveal all the names of the police and murderers to L. (I waffled a bit on whether I should say him or her, in order to disguise him/her, but whatever. I'm just going to say L.)

 

Of course, I'm naturally going to be suspicious of any L's who do claim they're L now.

 

And Elbereth, The mass Murderer reveal wouldn't help in my opinion. I was simply putting out all the options I had thought of.

[TheMightyLopen]

The Order of Actions states that the Death Note kill is before Ryuk's converting, so I think it's possible for the Death Note Holder to kill themselves, then Ryuk converts someone. So if Ryuk wanted to, he could convert someone this Cycle I think. Alv, is that possible?

 

Aman, you finally come back, and then you vote on me. Great. Welcome back. I do have a notebook, but as far as I've been able to tell, it's never killed anyone. (I've even written names in it and everything!  )

 

What. You've got to be kidding Joe. People, come on, you're supposed to reveal to me! 

 

Edit: Taking my vote off of Bugsy.

Edited May 9, 2016 by TheMightyLopen

[Alvron]

I'm having internet problems and am unable to quote/multiquote so I'm just going to c/p questions.

 

ALVRON, a few questions. Can there be multiple L's? Can Ryuk kill his holder and get a new Holder on the same turn?

No.  Only one L.  No.  They cannot recruit and kill in the same cycle.

 

Alv, do players given the Death Note keep their role? 

Yes.

 

The Order of Actions states that the Death Note kill is before Ryuk's converting, so I think it's possible for the Death Note Holder to kill themselves, then Ryuk converts someone. So if Ryuk wanted to, he could convert someone this Cycle I think. Alv, is that possible?

See above.

[A Joe in the Bush]

That's a relief.

[AliasSheep]

"This is all terribly interesting," Kai mused, "I believe you underestimate M's usefulness in your own investigations, my friend.  You also seem to underestimate the power he has over you at the current time.  I don't really see any downsides to actually working with M.  Just prove your usefulness and hopefully try to stay out of any compromising situations.  Who knows, maybe someone here might be able to get those records off him." He flicked his stick of metal into the air and let it drop against his face, the tip just off the edge of his eye.

[Straw]

Here are my opinions:

1. Lynches: I personally do not think that day one lynches are good.

2. Joe's plan: I do not agree with this plan because:

-It depends on suicide: Joe will be killed at the end which shows that Joe is (probably) not a eliminator but we lose a strong village strategist.

-It depends on trust: Joe, The Murderers, L, and the police must all be trusted in order for this plan to work.

[Arrae]

****, Joseph was scary. Rikku stepped back as he shouted into Elbe's face. She hadn't seen things like that, M treating them all like disposable chess pieces, but it made sense. Too much sense.

"If you agree to help M, write as muchon a piece of paper in your room. He'll see," Elbe said.

Rikku looked around at the others. Maybe...maybe working with M wasn't such a good idea.

"Since you all don't care for these records, I'm sure our resident pyromaniac would love to do the honors."

"Wait!" Rikku said. "I want to see what Interpol says about me."

---

Joe. I'm still suspicious of you, but it's more gut than any specific reason.

So many brackets in this post. Writting M with fancy formatting over and over is painful on a phone.

EDIT: and the formatting didn't even work!

Edited May 9, 2016 by Arraenae

[Hellscythe]

Hey I'm on mobile right now and am getting settled into my new apartment but I should be able to get my computer up and running and make a full post by the end of the cycle.

[DeathClutch19]

Wow, so much speculation and nothing has even happened yet. I'll have more to say when more things actually happen. Good luck to all.

[AliasSheep]

Here are my opinions:

1. Lynches: I personally do not think that day one lynches are good.

2. Joe's plan: I do not agree with this plan because:

-It depends on suicide: Joe will be killed at the end which shows that Joe is (probably) not a eliminator but we lose a strong village strategist.

-It depends on trust: Joe, The Murderers, L, and the police must all be trusted in order for this plan to work.

 

Regarding Joe's plan, L can check Joe's innocence, so we can trust him based on that.  We should probably set up a way of checking whether L has actually verified Joe's innocence however.  L, could you please contact someone randomly.  First confirm they have no contact with me - if they do, choose someone else - then ask them to send a random code word of your choosing to me.  I can use this to check some things out which will help me verify your identity.  Then, myself and this other person should be able to confirm whether or not Joe is innocent to everyone else.

 

Regarding trusting the murderers, it isn't vital, as we can lynch Joe if the murderers don't do as intended.

 

Regarding first day lynches, I believe I remember you saying this in LG20, and I'm tempted to agree with the people there - that the discussion is highly valuable, even if we do lynch a noble village (Harmony Above, Mailliw, I feel like that's going to be stuck in my psyche now).

 

On that note, based on the last three pages of discussion, does anyone have any suspicions, even minor ones, that we can look into further.

 

EDIT: RP  (btw, how do I do those fancy post breaks?)

 

----

 

"I wonder if you have anything on me..." Kai chuckled to himself, and sat back up, his back damp from the grass, "I've always wanted to know how famous I am."

Edited May 9, 2016 by AliasSheep

[TheMightyLopen]

Suspicions:

 

Strawman - He usually votes and tries to be a part of Day 1 lynches. Now he says he's against them. If Joe is a Civilian, it could be that he's trying to get close to him to get his information by buddying up with his thoughts. However, Strawman has gotten lynched/killed early a couple times lately I think, so I'd prefer not lynching/killing him right away.

 

DeathClutch - Did a "I'm here, but nothings going on, so bye." post, which does nothing to further discussion.

 

Meta - He's the Holder of the Death Note Shard.

 

Arraenae - gut.

 

Sheep - gut

 

I somewhat trust Joe, LUNA, Mailliw, Aman and Burnt. Hael a little as well. All gut reads. Probably worthless.

 

Edit: I also trust Elbereth a little as well. At first I was suspicious of her, but that's changed. Will probably change multiple times over the course of the game.

Edited May 9, 2016 by TheMightyLopen

[AliasSheep]

Wow, so much speculation and nothing has even happened yet. I'll have more to say when more things actually happen. Good luck to all.

 

Do you not have any thoughts on Joe's plan?

[Elbereth]

Regarding Joe's plan, L can check Joe's innocence, so we can trust him based on that.  We should probably set up a way of checking whether L has actually verified Joe's innocence however.  L, could you please contact someone randomly.  First confirm they have no contact with me - if they do, choose someone else - then ask them to send a random code word of your choosing to me.  I can use this to check some things out which will help me verify your identity.  Then, myself and this other person should be able to confirm whether or not Joe is innocent to everyone else.

Um. First off, this requires L to trust someone they haven't scanned. Someone else they haven't scanned, given they already revealed to Joe. This seems unwise. Secondly, how the heck does this help the thread verify Joe's innocence? Even if it (somehow) helps you confirm him, we have no idea whether to trust you, so that's not very helpful. Thirdly, just lynching/killing Joe would be much simpler. Just saying.

 

EDIT: RP  (btw, how do I do those fancy post breaks?)

"hr" inside brackets. [ hr] without the space.

Suspicions:

DeathClutch - Did a "I'm here, but nothings going on, so bye." post, which does nothing to further discussion.

Very much agreed here, since there has been plenty going on. It hasn't just been poke votes, but actual discussion. So I'm not sure where you're coming from there, DC. May place a vote on you later.

For now, though, I'll poke Cloudjumper. I'll retract once you post. What's your opinion on the plan?

Edit: I also trust Elbereth a little as well. At first I was suspicious of her, but that's changed. Will probably change multiple times over the course of the game.

Of course. Same to you. As usual.

[Amanuensis]

So far everyone has posted but Metacognition, Cloudjumper, Trelagist and Weaving Webs. I really don't feel like voting for any of them but I'm having trouble deciding on a better alternative. Since everyone has retracted their votes except for Mark and I, I guess I'll just make a retaliatory vote, except now Elby has ninja'd me with a vote for Cloudjumper I guess I'll join her. Lopen.

 

(1) Amanuensis: Mark IV

(2) Cloudjumper: Elbereth, Amanuensis

Edited May 9, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Elbereth]

I am the supreme ninja. :ph34r:

[AliasSheep]

Um. First off, this requires L to trust someone they haven't scanned. Someone else they haven't scanned, given they already revealed to Joe. This seems unwise. Secondly, how the heck does this help the thread verify Joe's innocence? Even if it (somehow) helps you confirm him, we have no idea whether to trust you, so that's not very helpful. Thirdly, just lynching/killing Joe would be much simpler. Just saying.

Just to note, I have been contacted by someone claiming to be L.  I'm currently confirming with Joe if its the same person who contacted him, and I would definitely like to work with them, this would just be for extra clarification.  I have a few ideas that would need L's cooperation that I think could possibly help the village.  You make a good point about L needing to trust someone they haven't scanned - that's something I hadn't considered.  L, only do this if you're comfortable with that risk.  Now, with that out the way, if we have two people both state that Joe is innocent based on L's word, then it's impossible by the game rules for all 3 of us to be lying about our innocence.  Only two people max can be eliminators, so at least one of us would have to genuinely believe that Joe is innocent.  Thus, if all three of us claim Joe to be innocent, then we know that at least one of us is trustworthy, even if we don't know which on in particular.

 

The problem with this, of course, is if both Joe and the person claiming to be L are the eliminators, but I'm hoping the process I proposed will give us at least a reasonable amount of trustability to the L-claimant.

 

Everything I just said seems very convoluted - I apologise, I should really be getting some sleep.

 

 

 

"hr" inside brackets. [ hr] without the space.

Ah, thanks!

[Elbereth]

Right. Well. Your plan does make more sense that way. L's actions... do not. In the slightest. L, what the heck? Why are you revealing to people who you haven't scanned? (This is a rhetorical question. I do not need an answer. Just... why.) You're literally part of the eliminator win con! Agh.

[TheMightyLopen]

If you have important information regarding other players roles, do NOT make that public. Ryuk is gonna turn those who have information if he can, so by revealing you know sensitive information, such as you knowing L's identity, you become a target for conversion. If you're okay with that, well then, I suggest to everyone else to not give that person any information, and we should probably lynch you.

 

It's not a huge problem right now, because Ryuk can't convert anyone yet, but once the Death Note Holder dies(which I'm guessing will happen sooner rather than later), we're all at risk of conversion. So if you want to be an informed villager and stay an informed villager, you should really keep that as quiet as possible.

[Haelbarde]

I'm having internet problems and am unable to quote/multiquote so I'm just going to c/p questions.

ALVRON, a few questions. Can there be multiple L's? Can Ryuk kill his holder and get a new Holder on the same turn?

No. Only one L. No. They cannot recruit and kill in the same cycle.

Alv, do players given the Death Note keep their role?

Yes.

The Order of Actions states that the Death Note kill is before Ryuk's converting, so I think it's possible for the Death Note Holder to kill themselves, then Ryuk converts someone. So if Ryuk wanted to, he could convert someone this Cycle I think. Alv, is that possible?

See above.

You didn't answer my question... :'(

If L scans the Holder before they've killed anyone, do they come up as Guilty? What about Ryuk. It's implied they would, but not explicitly spelled out.

[Alvron]

You didn't answer my question... :'(

If L scans the Holder before they've killed anyone, do they come up as Guilty? What about Ryuk. It's implied they would, but not explicitly spelled out.

Sorry.  Didn't see it.

 

Yes.  Both Ryuk and his Holder are already Guilty.  They killed the entire Kira Task Force in the write up.

[Haelbarde]

Sorry. Didn't see it.

Yes. Both Ryuk and his Holder are already Guilty. They killed the entire Kira Task Force in the write up.

Follow up question: What if a new Holder is scanned before they have killed?

---

As many people have said, I could be a Holder, performing a high risk high gain play. I'm not, but that possibility exists. Which is why I'm irritated at the sheer amount of role reveals I've had. I meant to learn them tomorrow. Not today. I'm in contact with police, murderers, and most frighteningly, L.

People, in this case, it worked out ok, because I'm not an eliminator, but there are times when Eliminators will do gambles like this, Especially disposable eliminators like the holder! Please don't be so trusting of someone, just because they offer themselves up to be lynched as part of a plan to help the village! If I was a Holder, I could do a cremload of damage right now.

That said, L, if you didn't contact me, then the Holder did. I haven't told L any of the names I've been given, and I won't until tomorrow. But if no other L contacts me, then I will assume that I'm in contact with the legit L, and reveal all the names of the police and murderers to L. (I waffled a bit on whether I should say him or her, in order to disguise him/her, but whatever. I'm just going to say L.)

Of course, I'm naturally going to be suspicious of any L's who do claim they're L now.

And Elbereth, The mass Murderer reveal wouldn't help in my opinion. I was simply putting out all the options I had thought of.

My problem with this is that we have no proof that anything you say here is true. Could be the Alendi/Terris game all over again. Or even if you're actually village, there's a couple of players here who would totally fakeclaim L to multiple people to see people's reactions.

[Arrae]

Wow, so much speculation and nothing has even happened yet. I'll have more to say when more things actually happen. Good luck to all.

 

DC.

 

As Lopen and El said, what he posted wasn't very useful. Discussion doesn't happen through people sitting back and staying quiet in the hopes that someone will bring up a useful topic, it comes up by being that person to bring up a useful topic, or commenting on that topic. Discussion doesn't magically pop out of nowhere.

 

Either this that was an unhelpful village post, or an eliminator trying to discredit the discussion we're currently having. If I've missed an option, feel free to put it in here, but neither of those are good things.

[Alvron]

Follow up question: What if a new Holder is scanned before they have killed?

They would still show up as Guilty.