Roshar vs Scadrial

[Rich2244]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Books of Sanderson that do not end with a "happy ending" (as in everybody lived happily ever after)

Sixth of Dusk

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Although the machine was stopped, it was still activated and gave the Ones Above an excuse to be more invasive as they planned. Only hope is that Sixth and his friend (forgot her name), are aware of the manipulation and will try to fight it

Alcatraz

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Pretty much the end of every single book ends up with the situation worse off than it began. 

Mistborn as was pointed out

 

So not all of his books resolve with a "happy ending"

Which is the reason 'happy ending' was in asterisks, refers to evil being defeated, prosperity to come after the instance. 

Mistborn for example has a decimated population but also gets to start again in the Elendel Basin. Which is pretty much as close to Eutopia as you can get. I would hardly call that worse than the final empire.

if you are being literal then obviously immediately after an event that is worth writing about its gonna be worse.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Rich2244

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Rich2244 said:

Which is the reason 'happy ending' was in asterisks, refers to evil being defeated, prosperity to come after the instance. 

Mistborn for example has a decimated population but also gets to start again in the Elendel Basin. Which is pretty much as close to Eutopia as you can get. I would hardly call that worse than the final empire.

Did you read the spoiler tags for the other two? Because again that fits your definition of not being a happy ending. 

 

Sixth of Dusk

Spoiler

Evil was not defeated, the "Evil" in the Ones Above got exactly what they wanted. An excuse to come on down to the planet and get more hands on. That was the whole point of "accidentally" letting the native population get their hands on the technology. 

 

Alcatraz

Spoiler

The second book ends with his mother successfully stealing the thing they were trying to protect (its been a little while since I have read them, so what the object is, is hazy). In the third the Librarians successfully dismantle the Knights Crystallia from within, seriously weakening the Free Cities defense. And in the last one (prior to the release of the newest one), Even though they stop the invasion of the Free City version of Hawaii (forgot the name again), the area is decimated and will probably surrender anyway as they cannot hold up to a follow up assault, Alcatraz loses his ability, releasing it, and his father will probably end the world. So yeah, every single ending is worse than it started, and the bad guys end up getting what they want in the end anyway. 

 

[Rich2244]

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Did you read the spoiler tags for the other two? Because again that fits your definition of not being a happy ending. 

 

Sixth of Dusk

  Hide contents

Evil was not defeated, the "Evil" in the Ones Above got exactly what they wanted. An excuse to come on down to the planet and get more hands on. That was the whole point of "accidentally" letting the native population get their hands on the technology. 

 

Alcatraz

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The second book ends with his mother successfully stealing the thing they were trying to protect (its been a little while since I have read them, so what the object is, is hazy). In the third the Librarians successfully dismantle the Knights Crystallia from within, seriously weakening the Free Cities defense. And in the last one (prior to the release of the newest one), Even though they stop the invasion of the Free City version of Hawaii (forgot the name again), the area is decimated and will probably surrender anyway as they cannot hold up to a follow up assault, Alcatraz loses his ability, releasing it, and his father will probably end the world. So yeah, every single ending is worse than it started, and the bad guys end up getting what they want in the end anyway. 

 

Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted Sixth of Dusk, as I understand it Alkatraz is still mid series? But fair enough that's at least one example.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Rich2244

[Pathfinder]

46 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted Sixth of Dusk, as I understand it Alkatraz is still mid series? But fair enough that's at least one example.

Alcatraz has one book left, which.....

Spoiler

At the beginning of the first book, he says he is about to be sacrificed by the evil Librarians, and then proceeds to tell his life story leading up to that moment. We have all been waiting years to finally see him be sacrificed lolol

 

Sixth of Dusk

Spoiler

No worries. Basically the ending is Sixth and his companion going into the situation knowing about the manipulation, and will try to at least mitigate the full extent of the damage that the Ones Above will do. They cannot stop nor prevent it, but they can try and make it be not as bad as it could be. 

 

[Rich2244]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Alcatraz has one book left, which.....

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At the beginning of the first book, he says he is about to be sacrificed by the evil Librarians, and then proceeds to tell his life story leading up to that moment. We have all been waiting years to finally see him be sacrificed lolol

 

Sixth of Dusk

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No worries. Basically the ending is Sixth and his companion going into the situation knowing about the manipulation, and will try to at least mitigate the full extent of the damage that the Ones Above will do. They cannot stop nor prevent it, but they can try and make it be not as bad as it could be. 

 

Ah right, must admit Sanderson does let heroes find impossible solutions quite often, and considering Alkatraz is supposed to be a young-adult/ teenager book...... Let's just say I have my suspicions on what the outcome might be. Must admit it's not a series I've had much interest in though, I've read the blurbs and it doesn't really grab me.

Sixth of Dusk however sound very interesting, might have to start that after I've done my current reading of Stormlight

 

[Argel]

You really need to read Alcatraz to get a feel for it. Blurbs, descriptions, reviews, etc. do not do it justice. And the magic system is much more interesting than it may at first seem. It's not for everyone, but it is well written, and the new updated releases with drawings, new covers, and a map really add to the setting. For me, it's really impressive to see Brandon mix comedy in so well with a well thought out magic system.

[Darkness Ascendant]

12 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

Ah right, must admit Sanderson does let heroes find impossible solutions quite often, and considering Alkatraz is supposed to be a young-adult/ teenager book...... Let's just say I have my suspicions on what the outcome might be. Must admit it's not a series I've had much interest in though, I've read the blurbs and it doesn't really grab me.

Sixth of Dusk however sound very interesting, might have to start that after I've done my current reading of Stormlight

 

@Argel is right, When I checked Alcatraz out, I thought it was a very strange book. Tbh the only reason I read it was because it was one of Brandon Sanderson's books, and he has never let me down before. And guess what, just as I thought, I was instantly hooked

[Oversleep]

I'm about to throw new info about Shardplate vs bullets and then feed on the bloodbath that commences.

Quote

Q: To what extent could Shardplate resist a bullet?
A: Plate would resist a bullet well.
source

 

[Jondesu]

Ooh, yummy. That's what I've been concluding myself anyways, nice to have confirmation. Sustained fire would still be a danger, I'm sure, but with how fast they move, that'd be hard to accomplish.

jW

[asterion137]

FE scadrial wins by swarm. "literally millions of troops"+over 300,000 koloss take it without the magic users and other trump cards they can play.

The basin probably loses with that quote. They don't really have a standing army or anything like that. They only need the bands or the southerners to win though

[The One Who Connects]

On July 18, 2016 at 11:36 PM, asterion137 said:

I was gonna bring back this thread in a bit (still gotta work out logistics of some things) but figured I'd respond to this first. This size comparison is entirely incorrect. Per the Mistborn Annotations(HoA Chapter 76), the geographical area of the planet that the Final Empire covers is fairly small.

Secondly, if you are calling TFE 3,100 miles across, it's bigger than the USA.

 

Spoilers for Size(mobile does image size.. badly, so I'll resize it later if need be.

edit v3: I give up on the image, google the width of the US.

addtionally the phrase "in / a / few / days" was rewritten as "this post is attempting to skirt the rules" so that's something

Edited March 10, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Image wasn't loading

[asterion137]

On 3/10/2017 at 11:30 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I was gonna bring back this thread in a bit (still gotta work out logistics of some things) but figured I'd respond to this first. This size comparison is entirely incorrect. Per the Mistborn Annotations(HoA Chapter 76), the geographical area of the planet that the Final Empire covers is fairly small.

Secondly, if you are calling TFE 3,100 miles across, it's bigger than the USA.

 

Spoilers for Size(mobile does image size.. badly, so I'll resize it later if need be.

edit v3: I give up on the image, google the width of the US.

addtionally the phrase "in / a / few / days" was rewritten as "this post is attempting to skirt the rules" so that's something

you could also say that on Earth (Scadrial is roughly earth-sized) australia takes up a "relatively small" amount of space even though it's actually a little larger than I proposed the final empire to be. The scale for the Elendel basin is taken directly from the map in the books so it's confirmed to be 400-something miles across. It's also confirmed that the Elendel Basin is located in roughly that part of the old Final Empire and that's where the coastline matches up best so I think that if my scale is off it's not by all that much.

[Erunion]

.... Is this thread being necroed?

I keep getting notifications for people upvoting my stuff in the early part of this thread.... 

[Rich2244]

7 hours ago, asterion137 said:

you could also say that on Earth (Scadrial is roughly earth-sized) australia takes up a "relatively small" amount of space even though it's actually a little larger than I proposed the final empire to be. The scale for the Elendel basin is taken directly from the map in the books so it's confirmed to be 400-something miles across. It's also confirmed that the Elendel Basin is located in roughly that part of the old Final Empire and that's where the coastline matches up best so I think that if my scale is off it's not by all that much.

Australia might look relatively small on a map or a globe, the scaleing is off, Australia is storming huge.

[The One Who Connects]

8 hours ago, Erunion said:

.... Is this thread being necroed?

I keep getting notifications for people upvoting my stuff in the early part of this thread.... 

I'll take blame for the necro. I was gonna make a massive post like yours to revitalize the thread, since it made more sense than making an entirely new topic. Filling in details took far longer than I had hoped, so I just did the quick statement. (And forgot to come back)

As for upvotes, it's probably newer people who've never read the thread, and only saw it now that it's back in the current discussions

[Steeldancer]

Ok related to this thread: what if we gave the scadrian army unkeyed metalminds? Specifically, BENDALLOY metalminds? No more supply train. Which means we would have to give roshar a contingent of fully outfitted KR. And maybe lift with a bendalloy compounding ability. And just because I'm still in love with the idea, Steeldancer  (edgedancer with steel compounding powers) then you might even be able to throw the lord ruler against that, and it would still be an even match. After all, who could compete with Steeldancer? Infinitely fast (limited only by avaliable stormlight and steel), with a shardblade, and also able to steelpush. He might be fast enough to take the lord ruler down on his own. Or at the least give him an awesome fight 

[Jondesu]

@The Flash, that's an awesome idea (though filling all those metalminds would be a chore, to say the least), but remember that Roshar already has an equivalent: soulcasters. They can make their food and housing at least as they go, so they already don't need supply trains.

[Dellexe]

I'll need to reread some books in order to respond more fully to this, but people previously talked about the Alethi-style of warfare apparently being similar to the classical Hoplite Phalanx from around 700-400 BC. Not sure how accurate those statements were, I'll see for myself on reread, but I'll get into my knowledge of hoplite warfare. 

The pre-phalangite phalanx is not known for its maneuverability. In fact, Greek commanders rarely used maneuver beyond natural turns resulting from slanted formations and the tendency of phalanxes to drift right. Hoplite phalanxes also tended to be quite deep, typically at least 10 men deep, but only the first row (MAYBE the second row, if you stretch it) could fight, because of the length of the hoplite spear (7-8 feet long). This results in a lot of "wasted" manpower, and would result in the figures for Alethi armies being bloated with regards to how many soldiers would actually have an effect on the battlefield. 

The main purpose of the extra rows on the phalanx is argued. Some sources suggest that the deepness of the formation was used as part of the othismos, or massed shoving, where the phalanx's goal was essentially just to shove the opposing phalanx away. Other sources suggest that the phalanx was deep to improve morale and discipline, as some records show that experienced soldiers were stationed at the back and (typically right) side of the formation, rather than at the front. It's theorized that this was intended to keep the phalanx intact. 

Speaking of keeping phalanxes intact, phalanx battles were not actually that bloody compared to other styles of warfare. There were relatively few casualties during actual contact, most of the casualties were inflicted during one phalanx's rout. This means that once a phalanx breaks, heavy casualties ensue. We see this in the Roman phalanx in 390 BC, during the Gallic invasion of Rome. Once the Gallic warriors (prominently including Gaesaetae, if I remember right) met the Roman phalanx, they were able to quickly surround and break it despite not having particularly noteworthy command/battle tactics. 

Now to talk about Gallic warriors, I feel as though you will notice some similarities to warriors previously discussed in this thread.

Gallic warriors were larger than Roman soldiers, with many Roman and Greek sources discussing their savagery and physical superiority to the average soldier in the Roman Legio. Most were relatively unarmored. Only Gallic knights and champions wore heavy armor, with the rest relying on broad, ovular shields and bronze helmets. The Gaesaetae, who I mentioned earlier, went into battle "uncovered," likely nude. Battle was an important part of Gallic culture, with tribes being in an almost perpetual state of low-intensity warfare and infrequent high-intensity conflicts. Besides their shields, Gauls used axes, spears, and long iron slashing swords, requiring that they fought in loose formation to ensure sufficient room.

Now, I'm sure you all have seen the similarities I'm trying to draw here. "Uncovered," unarmored, physically larger, and relatively disorganized Gauls absolutely crushed the phalanx-reliant Legio and occupied Rome for six months. The phalanx, once broken, easily falls apart and is easily broken by sufficient numbers and ferocity. If Koloss are a substitute for Gauls, and the Roman phalanx a substitute for the Alethi phalanx, then in most circumstances I argue that Alethi phalanxes would break shortly after first contact.  Pitched battle, after the phalanx breaks, would become disorganized infantry used to fighting in formation trying to retreat while harried by stronger and more ferocious opponents, mimicking history. 

[Steeldancer]

10 hours ago, Jondesu said:

@The Flash, that's an awesome idea (though filling all those metalminds would be a chore, to say the least), but remember that Roshar already has an equivalent: soulcasters. They can make their food and housing at least as they go, so they already don't need supply trains.

Yeah i know. The interesting thing is that even in this the scadrians are a bit more limited... they would really need compounders. And if the rosharians were smart, they would assassinate said compounders and basically completely doom the scadrian forces.

[The One Who Connects]

14 hours ago, The Flash said:

Ok related to this thread: what if we gave the Scadrian army unkeyed Metalminds? Specifically, BENDALLOY Metalminds?

Given that this thread was old, you might not have read the first page recently, but this thread is meant to be about Era 1 Scadrial (Final Empire times) so the medallions wouldn't exist at the time. The first post also links to the Roshar vs Era 2 Scadrial topic, so you can look there and read up what people thought about using medallions and twinborn.

5 hours ago, KalaDellexe said:

If Koloss are a substitute for Gauls, and the Roman phalanx a substitute for the Alethi phalanx, then in most circumstances I argue that Alethi phalanxes would break shortly after first contact.

I would also have to look up things about those battles, but I feel that the increased range of the Koloss (b/c those big swords) would limit their ability to "surround," as they risk hitting the other Koloss and possibly creating openings for the Alethi (either an opening to break free or bigger wounds to focus on). It'd depend on how far apart the Alethi Phalanx stand. (The untrained recruits swarm in Kaladin flashbacks, and bridges on the Plains limit formation shapes) They might use an unbroken line in normal warfare, which would force the Koloss to create an opening in order to surround individual squads, though they could attempt to surround the entire force assuming numbers/terrain allow that to happen.

[Dellexe]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I would also have to look up things about those battles, but I feel that the increased range of the Koloss (b/c those big swords) would limit their ability to "surround," as they risk hitting the other Koloss and possibly creating openings for the Alethi (either an opening to break free or bigger wounds to focus on). It'd depend on how far apart the Alethi Phalanx stand. (The untrained recruits swarm in Kaladin flashbacks, and bridges on the Plains limit formation shapes) They might use an unbroken line in normal warfare, which would force the Koloss to create an opening in order to surround individual squads, though they could attempt to surround the entire force assuming numbers/terrain allow that to happen.

On one hand, the wide arc Koloss swords require limits them. On the other hand, that loose formation will allow them to wrap themselves around tightly-packed Alethi formations just as a natural result of their charge. Remember that phalanxes are TERRIBLE at fighting enemies that aren't directly in front of them.

Wiki page of the battle, I have a book that discusses the battle more deeply if you wantdeeper descriptions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Allia#The_battle

Some key points, the Roman Legio at this time was not the disciplined Cammillan or Imperial Legion. The Legio was made up of farmers who battled seasonally, as was the case with most of the Greek City-States, Sparta's dedicated soldiering class being the exception. Now, there's a couple points here about the Alethi army. The Alethi armies that are actually in Alethkar proper seem to be very similar to classical Greek/Roman hoplite armies in that they consist of seasonally levied peasants, though seasons being weird on Roshar I'm not sure how to describe it. While the Alethi forces on the Shattered Plains are obviously more experienced and professional, likely on par with the Spartans in comparison to their experience and discipline. While this means they likely won't have a massive chain-reaction rout and breaking of the line as was the case in the Battle of the Allia, phalanxes are still awful at fighting things that aren't in front of them. Most major triumphs you hear when talking about the phalanx restricted the ability of opponents to surround the phalanx from the sides and rear. The Koloss ignore most of these rules because of their size, ferocity, and general disregard for convention.

Either way, I believe that Alethi formations would break after meeting Koloss charges. Even if they didn't all break immediately, and were fighting in a location that restricted movement and made outflanking the Alethi lines difficult, one break would spell catastrophe for the surrounding formations, and then when those break, the steady chain reaction of  broken formations would seriously wound the Alethi army's ability to fight. 

Oh, and another thing I've only seen touched on once or twice in this thread. Even if the Koloss take massive casualties, as long as they don't overwhelmingly lose, they win. Each fallen Koloss can have their spikes transplanted into a wounded soldier, ally or enemy. A battle in which the Koloss lose half their number would turn into them only suffering 10% casualties from not being able to find spikes. This is a HUGE advantage. Being able to recoup population loss like that is massive. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by KalaDellexe

[asterion137]

On 3/30/2017 at 3:24 AM, Rich2244 said:

Australia might look relatively small on a map or a globe, the scaleing is off, Australia is storming huge.

Well yes but it's still the smallest continent. My point is that TFE can be that large without taking up a large portion of the planet like Brandon said. My scaling of TFE might have been a little off but at the very least the final empire is Australia sized if not larger

Edited April 1, 2017 by asterion137
said europe instead of australia oops

[The One Who Connects]

On March 31, 2017 at 1:24 PM, KalaDellexe said:

Wiki page of the battle, I have a book that discusses the battle more deeply if you wantdeeper descriptions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Allia#The_battle

Oh, and another thing I've only seen touched on once or twice in this thread. Even if the Koloss take massive casualties, as long as they don't overwhelmingly lose, they win. Each fallen Koloss can have their spikes transplanted into a wounded soldier, ally or enemy. A battle in which the Koloss lose half their number would turn into them only suffering 10% casualties from not being able to find spikes. This is a HUGE advantage. Being able to recoup population loss like that is massive. 

I'll take a look at the battle sometime, should prove enlightening. Thank you for the link.

As for reusing spikes, it's not as much of a game breaker as you would think. Per one of the HoA Epigraphs, it is Sazed's understanding that the Koloss are the ones that figured out that they could reuse the spikes. TLR would've used that instead of sending more skaa and more spikes to replenish their numbers if he had known.

This bit is speculation, but it is my belief that this breakthrough came from Human, as he is the only Koloss given a backstory and the fact that he retained some of his cleverness after being turned into a Koloss. (Coppermind page as either Vershad or Human(Koloss) I'm not sure at the moment)

So while the tactic will work (assuming more scuffles don't break out while the sides recover equipment/their dead from the battlefields) I don't think it can be discovered by Koloss while under direct control of Inquisitors, but a clever Inq/Nobleman might make the connection. Actually, the Noblemen don't understand Hemalurgy, so that basically limits it to the Inquisitors making assumptions.

[Dellexe]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for reusing spikes, it's not as much of a game breaker as you would think. Per one of the HoA Epigraphs, it is Sazed's understanding that the Koloss are the ones that figured out that they could reuse the spikes. TLR would've used that instead of sending more skaa and more spikes to replenish their numbers if he had known.

Ah, I had forgotten that. 

Still, picking out the wounded/captured will replenish some Koloss losses, just not quite as overwhelmingly as my previous understanding. 

[cometaryorbit]

Newly created Koloss will be the smallest size (~5 feet) though, and probably not much use.

They don't seem that much harder to kill than a normal human (Elend, pre-Allomancy, kills a small koloss with a dagger). And they won't have much real reach advantage -- even if they're strong enough to use really huge swords, their height will limit the length they can practically use. So spears will out-range them, and pikes/polearms even more so.

And koloss replenishment only matters after the first battle, and koloss's big advantage, besides the reach (and toughness?) of the giant ones, is 'shock and awe' against those who haven't faced them before.

Once they know what to do, IMO trained human soldiers spears/pikes/polearms should be able to do much better than 1:1 against koloss. If spearmen/pikemen form a closed square formation with points outward in all directions (probably is a technical term for this...) there's not much non-gigantic koloss can do except bury them in bodies.

And a lot of pikes were long enough to match the reach of even the big koloss.