Roshar vs Scadrial

[The One Who Connects]

I don't know about your 2 v 3 numbers, but you make a good point about people on a lower grav world being taller. Completely forgot about that, and now we've gone an pulled a Napolean...

I think your military numbers for the rest of Roshar are too high, Sea of Souls notwithstanding. Anyone else have something more definitive to argue this point than my opinion ?

[lyrei]

about the numbers somone said before that alethela and jah keved is a third of the world

 

[Zennix]

I think that the circumstances of the war has been rigged to favor the Scadrian victory proponents. This is a world vs world war scenario!

Nobody has mentioned the fact that the Stormfather would also participate in this war. He's not a Shard, so the Shard participation restrictions would not apply to him. I would like to see how the Scadrian army will fare when a Highstorm is summoned in their midst. Or the Koloss army. Or even the Lord Ruler for that matter! 

Oh! Does anyone remember that the Nightwatcher (not a Shard!) would probably grant Rosharans Boons that will help them win the war? Just imagine strategy and tactics unit with 100 'Super Taravangians'. 

Some Rosharan creatures like the Ryshadium and Santhids have been shown to have some form of intelligence. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that other creatures like the Chasmfiends would have enough intelligence to fight for the Rosharan side if their world is threatened? 

I would also like to see how Koloss, Mistings or even Mistborns and Inquisitors would fare against a platoon of Thunderclasts. 

There are also Stormform Parshendi (and 'Otherform' Parshmen following the Everstorm's arrival). I will say nothing about the Heralds, Voidbinders, Unmade or other types of Voidbringers since we don't know yet what they are capable of. 

By a native Rosharan 

[dyring]

15 minutes ago, Zennix said:

I think that the circumstances of the war has been rigged to favor the Scadrian victory proponents. This is a world vs world war scenario!

Nobody has mentioned the fact that the Stormfather would also participate in this war. He's not a Shard, so the Shard participation restrictions would not apply to him. I would like to see how the Scadrian army will fare when a Highstorm is summoned in their midst. Or the Koloss army. Or even the Lord Ruler for that matter! 

Oh! Does anyone remember that the Nightwatcher (not a Shard!) would probably grant Rosharans Boons that will help them win the war? Just imagine strategy and tactics unit with 100 'Super Taravangians'. 

Some Rosharan creatures like the Ryshadium and Santhids have been shown to have some form of intelligence. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that other creatures like the Chasmfiends would have enough intelligence to fight for the Rosharan side if their world is threatened? 

I would also like to see how Koloss, Mistings or even Mistborns and Inquisitors would fare against a platoon of Thunderclasts. 

There are also Stormform Parshendi (and 'Otherform' Parshmen following the Everstorm's arrival). I will say nothing about the Heralds, Voidbinders, Unmade or other types of Voidbringers since we don't know yet what they are capable of. 

By a native Rosharan 

IF you want to include the stormfather who is the caretaker of much of a dead shard, then you would haveto include TLR while holding the well of ascension, he wasent quite a shard either, wich mean Roshar could collide with another of the planets in the system and be destroyed.

 

 

[The One Who Connects]

Okay.. Some clarifications:

1. The Stormfather is merged with Honor's Cognitive Shadow, and is close enough to a Shard in my opinion to be excluded. I'm open to objections since I'm not actually "in charge" of this thread.

2.1 Per Erunion's post back near the beginning, we/they decided upon a neutral third world as the battleground to get rid of Highstorm damage and the Mists so it's more fair.

2.2 TLR could survive a Highstorm with ease. Both Decapitation and Vertical Bisection are confirmed to be healable by Double Gold, so a blunt force equivalent is gonna be survivable. Nobody else in Era 1 can do this, but that's besides the point.

3. I'm not sure whether we would allow Nightwatcher Boons. I'd expect them to not be very common, and not always be something expressly useful in battle... Maybe every now and then some soldiers have better odds of survival via a boon, but it's not gonna be game breaking.

4.1 Most, if not all, types of Voidbringers were excluded by virtue of time period rather than b/c they are against Rosharans. Stormform and the Unmade are probably the only things that got bypassed due to their alignment.

4.2 I think that Chasmfiends are neutral, but we didn't include them because the logistics of taming them to actually use is a bit ludicrous. Axehounds and Chulls should've been included, since those are able to be domesticated.

4.2.1: Axehounds

• They would serve the same function as guard dogs, and as attack dogs(Axehound fighting rings are a thing in world).
• They participate in hunts, which I feel implies that they have some skill as bloodhounds/tracking dogs.

4.2.2: Chulls

• Substitute for Horses in supply caravans.
• They move slower than humans, but their shells are literally stone, which puts them in less danger.
• They are often fed grain, which should be a common resource in the neutral world. (If not, the Alethi could probably plant some of their own)
• They only pupate in Highstorms, so no risk of reaching that last lifecycle stage of senescence.
• Additionally, they look like boulders when sleeping, which makes them less likely to be attacked in a night raid or just in general. Rocks are pretty innocuous things.

5. Do we want any Proto-Radiants on the Rosharan team? Because I see two options with that: have one of each type, or have generics of the 7 we currently have. Either way, the Windrunner would have about 10-15 Squires. Any opinions?

Edited April 21, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Mobile and formatting don't get along

[Rich2244]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Okay.. Some clarifications:

1. The Stormfather is merged with Honor's Cognitive Shadow, and is close enough to a Shard in my opinion to be excluded. I'm open to objections since I'm not actually "in charge" of this thread.

2.1 Per Erunion's post back near the beginning, we/they decided upon a neutral third world as the battleground to get rid of Highstorm damage and the Mists so it's more fair.

2.2 TLR could survive a Highstorm with ease. Both Decapitation and Vertical Bisection are confirmed to be healable by Double Gold, so a blunt force equivalent is gonna be survivable. Nobody else in Era 1 can do this, but that's besides the point.

3. I'm not sure whether we would allow Nightwatcher Boons. I'd expect them to not be very common, and not always be something expressly useful in battle... Maybe every now and then some soldiers have better odds of survival via a boon, but it's not gonna be game breaking.

4.1 Most, if not all, types of Voidbringers were excluded by virtue of time period rather than b/c they are against Rosharans. Stormform and the Unmade are probably the only things that got bypassed due to their alignment.

4.2 I think that Chasmfiends are neutral, but we didn't include them because the logistics of taming them to actually use is a bit ludicrous. Axehounds and Chulls should've been included, since those are able to be domesticated.

4.2.1: Axehounds

• They would serve the same function as guard dogs, and as attack dogs(Axehound fighting rings are a thing in world).
• They participate in hunts, which I feel implies that they have some skill as bloodhounds/tracking dogs.

4.2.2: Chulls

• Substitute for Horses in supply caravans.
• They move slower than humans, but their shells are literally stone, which puts them in less danger.
• They are often fed grain, which should be a common resource in the neutral world. (If not, the Alethi could probably plant some of their own)
• They only pupate in Highstorms, so no risk of reaching that last lifecycle stage of senescence.
• Additionally, they look like boulders when sleeping, which makes them less likely to be attacked in a night raid or just in general. Rocks are pretty innocuous things.

5. Do we want any Proto-Radiants on the Rosharan team? Because I see two options with that: have one of each type, or have generics of the 7 we currently have. Either way, the Windrunner would have about 10-15 Squires. Any opinions?

Ok so i my mind to make this a fair fight as I have said multiple times, point 1.0 perfetly reasonable if anyone disagrees they are argueing for the sake of an argument.

2.1 again the same.

2.2 yes TLR is OP we get this everyone agrees he is excluded because otherwise he wins, the only situation that could possibly counter this is all of the heralds which is equally rediculous, let's assume both of those situations are ignored.

3.0 Agreed too rare, not a factor

4.1  In my opinion NO, we are using all of first series mistborn advantages so we use everything from both WoK and WoR and they are still at a disadvantage. Roshar gets radiants, I.e. Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, lift, ect just to give them access to one of their magic systems, otherwise you have to take allomancy away from scadrial and we all know how one sided it would be then...... All Voidbringers that have been introduced are included.

4.2, 4.2.1, 4.2.2, 5. See point before. All are included.

Assuming all of that which I believe is the least you can possibly assume to make it anywhere near fair then Roshar dominates, no question, even 3 books before it's an 'even' by how far the series has progressed, fight.

[Djarskublar]

I have always thought this topic was a little ridiculous. I mean, with all the debate, it should be clear that there are a lot of factors, and there is no clear winner. In the end, it will come down to the skill of the generals and the fortunes of war. Even if one side has a decent advantage, that holds true. My opinion is that it's a pretty fair fight.

On the other hand, if we allow for Hemalurgy, just spike all of your Allomancers, then whenever one of your new Hemalurgists dies, just stick the spike in someone else. That is game changing. Surgebinders are irreplaceable. Spikes are very re-placeable.

[Zennix]

15 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

On the other hand, if we allow for Hemalurgy, just spike all of your Allomancers, then whenever one of your new Hemalurgists dies, just stick the spike in someone else. That is game changing. Surgebinders are irreplaceable. Spikes are very re-placeable.

If the Scadrians try that, then Roshar will definitely win because there will be a mass defection of Allomancers to the Rosharan side. I'm very sure that even Allomancers would like to keep on living. 

[The One Who Connects]

5 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

In my opinion NO, we are using all of first series Mistborn advantages so we use everything from both WoK and WoR. [..] Roshar gets Radiants, I.e. Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, lift, etc.. just to give them access to one of their magic system

Technically, I thought we were basing it more off Book 1, since the Final Empire is the real military force to be reckoned with in Era 1 and it didn't exist in books 2&3. But that's a bit of semantics.

Regarding Radiants: I mentioned generic Radiants and probably said generic Mistings earlier in the thread. I don't like the idea of using specific characters, mostly because they seem OP by virtue of their Main Character Status. They are functionally the same, but I've found that we debate with less bias if we distance ourselves a bit.

15 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

On the other hand, if we allow for Hemalurgy, just spike all of your Allomancers, then whenever one of your new Hemalurgists dies, just stick the spike in someone else. That is game changing. Surgebinders are irreplaceable. Spikes are very re-placeable.

The spikes would get weaker as they were reused, and eventually become useless. That'd take a few host deaths, but time spent spiked in a dead body should decay the spike a bit too, yes? (Have we ever asked Brandon this?)

---

7 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I mean, with all the debate, it should be clear that there are a lot of factors, and there is no clear winner.

But that's the spirit of good debates. If there's a clearly wrong answer, devil's advocate can only get you so far. But when you don't know for sure, you have to get creative and figure things out. It's theorycrafting of a different sort.

---

As additional fuel for the discussion, I have figured out why Inquisitors could control Koloss. Spikes granting Duralumin

Quote

Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler’s divine reputation.

From that same Annotation, we learned that Atium Mistings were very rare and that only TLR, his Atium Mistings, and a few Inquisitors even knew they existed. Basically, this is definitive about how few there are and why they would only be involved in a last resort should TLR see fit to send them.

We also know that "Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes" so some will have F-Gold like Kar did, others will have A-Duralumin, etc.. They didn't even all have Atium.

[Djarskublar]

33 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The spikes would get weaker as they were reused, and eventually become useless. That'd take a few host deaths, but time spent spiked in a dead body should decay the spike a bit too, yes? (Have we ever asked Brandon this?)

I think it depends on the spike used. If it's in the body, it should be encased in blood, so it shouldn't decay until you remove it. If you take the dead body and ram the spike through it into the new person, there shouldn't be any loss in the spike, or very little. It would depend on if the spike loses some charge simply because its bearer died, which I could see being a thing, but I doubt.

 

45 minutes ago, Zennix said:

If the Scadrians try that, then Roshar will definitely win because there will be a mass defection of Allomancers to the Rosharan side. I'm very sure that even Allomancers would like to keep on living. 

Who said we asked nicely?

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Djarskublar said:

If it's in the body, it should be encased in blood, so it shouldn't decay until you remove it.

I thought it had to do with moving blood. Hrmm..

2 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Who said we asked nicely?

The number differences between Inquisitors and Mistings told you to ask nicely

[dyring]

The kolloss is more of a pain then allomancers tbh. If the first ones dies, as long as there are human civilians around the final empire would just make more, all they need to do is to make a small spike. A few million of those and well...especially as they really dont need training or very fancy equipment.

A few thousand misting and some dozen mistborns and inquisitors while nasty, is no threat by comparison. Theyd just be used for assasinations really.

 

Each radiant would kill hundreds of kolloss surely, but then theyd run out of stormlight. Parshendi warform might match a kolloss, but there are nowhere as many. Elite soldier might match them, but most soldiers wont.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by dyring

[Blackhoof]

On 21/04/2017 at 3:08 PM, Kevino36 said:

Koloss do an all-out charge. Alethi set spears similarly to how they do against heavy cavalry. Koloss impale themselves against 12 ft-long spears and die. Alethi military superiority wins.

 

Simple, and involves spears. I like it.

 

That could kill the first row of Koloss, but the second would just knock the corpses out of the way (with your spears still embedded) and have free rein to slaughter you.

As discussed earlier in the thread, a few pages back, phalanxes (although i'm not convinced the Alethi fully use phalanxes) are weak against strong, big, berserker-type warriors- they are too inflexible. They are designed to fight other phalanxes. The Koloss will just bowl you over and break your shieldwall with the sheer force of their charge.

 

 

On 22/04/2017 at 3:04 AM, lyrei said:

This hasn't been mentioned but kriss said the roshar foot is larger than cosmere standard lets say by 2 inches we also know that the average alethi is over 6 feet that means in real number they are seven and a half feet(horneaters being 8) which is larger than the average koloss (5-7 feet) even accounting for greater strength and the large ones i would say on a large scale 2 alethi can beat 3 koloss (being armored, use tactics, stragety, have steel weapons)

 

even if the foot info accurate, we can assume Brandon "translated" the numbers (like he translates ages) for us, so we don't get confused. Think about it- Demoux and Galadin, and other non-Rosharans- travel around Roshar without drawing suspicion. They aren't abnormally short. Therefore we can know that either the foot differences are tiny, or Brandon translated it for us.

My interpretation is that the book tells us "X character if 6ft tall", while in the Rosharan system/measurement/language, they would say "X character is 5.5ft tall". Brandon translate it so we don't get confused.

 

On 22/04/2017 at 3:04 AM, lyrei said:

I also think the alethi numbers are under estimated look at how big amrams army was and he was one of many brightlords under sadeas with their being 10 highprinces the alethi army would have to be at least 200,000 which would crush the koloss even if they are 100,000 now jah keved is another 200,000 with the rest of the world being another 800,000 is about a million soldiers to crush the 500,000 skaa peasants

 

No, the Alethi army is pretty much canon 100k-150k. The entire Alethi professional military is on the Shattered Plains- about 100k men. Amaram had a tiny army, barely over 1k (Kaladin confirmed this when he first went to run bridges), and it was full of crap, barely-trained peasant levies, and it was stretched for men (Amaram made a deal about how every man was needed for the war, how low they were on soldiers).

So the non-SP part of the army probably only accounts for another 50-100k men, all of them really, really poor soldiers. They wouldn't last two seconds against Koloss.\

Now, I agree that Jah Keved should have another, equal amount of soldiers- so 300-400k combined, less than half very poor soldiers. These are the two most warlike nations on Roshar, so we can imagine they comprise at least half its military forces, so Roshar has about 800k soldiers to call upon.

Koloss can kill 3-4x their own number, and while there is disagreement about how many their are, I believe there are at least 100k in the FE, with the capacity to make many more. In addition, the Lord Ruler is stated as being able to call upon "millions" of soldiers. Not to mention, mistings are super useful on the battlefield, especially coinshots.

I can't see Roshar winning against these forces- they can't win even a single battle if the FE uses its troops intelligently.

[Blackhoof]

On 22/04/2017 at 5:14 AM, The One Who Connects said:

4.1 Most, if not all, types of Voidbringers were excluded by virtue of time period rather than b/c they are against Rosharans. Stormform and the Unmade are probably the only things that got bypassed due to their alignment.

4.2 I think that Chasmfiends are neutral, but we didn't include them because the logistics of taming them to actually use is a bit ludicrous. Axehounds and Chulls should've been included, since those are able to be domesticated.

4.2.1: Axehounds

• They would serve the same function as guard dogs, and as attack dogs(Axehound fighting rings are a thing in world).
• They participate in hunts, which I feel implies that they have some skill as bloodhounds/tracking dogs.

4.2.2: Chulls

• Substitute for Horses in supply caravans.
• They move slower than humans, but their shells are literally stone, which puts them in less danger.
• They are often fed grain, which should be a common resource in the neutral world. (If not, the Alethi could probably plant some of their own)
• They only pupate in Highstorms, so no risk of reaching that last lifecycle stage of senescence.
• Additionally, they look like boulders when sleeping, which makes them less likely to be attacked in a night raid or just in general. Rocks are pretty innocuous things.

5. Do we want any Proto-Radiants on the Rosharan team? Because I see two options with that: have one of each type, or have generics of the 7 we currently have. Either way, the Windrunner would have about 10-15 Squires. Any opinions?

 

4.1: I am not sure if Stormform should be included- depends which time period we are dealing with. If Book 2, then Jah Keved is a mess and the world has just been ravaged by the Everstorm. If Book 1, then no Stormform. The Unmade are tricky- we don't know anything about what they can do, really.

4.2: indeed- you can't tame those things.

As for axehounds and chulls, yeah they are definitely a feature of a Rosharan army, but the issue is that we don't see them used in serious combat on Roshar, and I don't see how their tactical benefits outweigh the advantages the FE has.

 

5: yeah Roshar should get all the known Proto-Radiants, or at least one generic for each order (which seems to be how many radiants there are so far). These would be serious threats on the battlefield- but there are more Mistborn than proto-radiants, and I suspect they would mostly be mobbed by mistborn and mistings and killed eventually.

[The One Who Connects]

@Blackhoof

I did say something to that effect with my Alexander the Great reference  At least those weren't designed against other Phalanxes, so precedent exists.

Fair enough on height difference translations, I had forgotten he did that. 

"Barely-trained peasant levies" is a wonderful term, and fits quite well with both Amaram's worthless recruits and most Skaa the Lord Ruler forcibly conscripts, since neither will have combat experience. Only the ex-soldiers and former guardsmen have any experience, and there isn't enough battle anymore for there to be large numbers of those.

4.1) I was merely clarifying a point, not pushing for usage of Stormform/Unmade. I agree that neither are likely to be good picks for the same reasons you say.

Dalinar uses Chulls to pull his siege bridges, and supply caravans are very useful off the battlefield during wartime. As for Axehounds.. Can't give a solid refutation, but the Plains aren't exactly an animal friendly environment.

Either way, outweighing tactical advantages was never the point. They are things that can make the fight more fair, while still being reasonable, so they should be included for completionism's sake if nothing else. Then we can discuss who has what advantage

Mobbed by Mistings maybe. I kept a lot of Erunion's numbers from their big post, and that included Mistborn numbers that wouldn't equal "mobbing" someone.

Radiant types we don't know any current members of would be Dustbringer, Willshaper and Stoneward, so if we did KR as of Edgedancer, they'd be out. A generic one of each would have all of them. Just so that page is clear.

[Blackhoof]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

@Blackhoof

"Barely-trained peasant levies" is a wonderful term, and fits quite well with both Amaram's worthless recruits and most Skaa the Lord Ruler forcibly conscripts, since neither will have combat experience. Only the ex-soldiers and former guardsmen have any experience, and there isn't enough battle anymore for there to be large numbers of those.

 

That is very true- probably 80-90% of the FE army will be Skaa peasant levies. The Rosharans at least have bigger cores of experienced, veteran warriors, because they have far more wars than Scadrial does.

 

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

4.1) I was merely clarifying a point, not pushing for usage of Stormform/Unmade. I agree that neither are likely to be good picks for the same reasons you say.

Dalinar uses Chulls to pull his siege bridges, and supply caravans are very useful off the battlefield during wartime. As for Axehounds.. Can't give a solid refutation, but the Plains aren't exactly an animal friendly environment.

Either way, outweighing tactical advantages was never the point. They are things that can make the fight more fair, while still being reasonable, so they should be included for completionism's sake if nothing else. Then we can discuss who has what advantage

You are correct- we should list everything.

 

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Mobbed by Mistings maybe. I kept a lot of Erunion's numbers from their big post, and that included Mistborn numbers that wouldn't equal "mobbing" someone.

Radiant types we don't know any current members of would be Dustbringer, Willshaper and Stoneward, so if we did KR as of Edgedancer, they'd be out. A generic one of each would have all of them. Just so that page is clear.

I think there are probably at least 20 Mistborn in the entire FE. Enough to, if they worked together, take out all the proto-radiants. Remember that not all are warriors- Jasnah can fight but she isn't a warrior, neither is Shalan. While they will be useful in their own ways, they won't be gliding around the battlefield like Kaladin.

What I would do is wait between battles, and send Mistborn assassins to kill Proto-Radiants while they are unprepared. Or, for that matter, to kill generals or other importnt figures.

 

We should also remember Kandra- they are superb spies and informants. Sure they cannot kill humans, but they can be given a dead body by a Mistborn assassin, and gain access to the highest levels of Rosharan planning and leadership. 

 

 

[lyrei]

to quote khriss be aware that lengths and times mentioned in essays and stories usually use local measurements a rosharan year is longer than cosmere standard and a rosharan foot is larger than cosmere standard it is difficult not to feel very small at times on this domineering majestic tempest of a planet

[lyrei]

blackhoof trying to kill proto radiants when they are unprepared is like trying to kill miles hundredlives unprepared they just heal but radiants(they can fly do illusions, elsecall etc.) coming in with a shard blade to kill mistborn that i can see

[asterion137]

I think a lot of this thread is blatantly low-balling scadrial's resources in terms of mistborn. House Venture had access to 3 mistborn at a minimum, while House Elarial had at least 2. Assuming there were on average 2 mistborn per house thats 20 right there (and it's probably more). Non-great houses also had access to mistborn. Certainly Cett was able to get a hold of one even though his bloodline was impure. I think 50-60 is a minimum for mistborn levels in the final empire especially considering that the ones we see are certainly not all that exist and we can count at least 30.

I don't think the Final Empire has a way to lose this war if they take Roshar seriously. They just have too many options. The Koloss are basically more versatile and durable cavalry and when used in tandem with allomantic fear tactics will be nigh unstoppable. Mistborn with atium trump shardbearers (coin to the eye ouch), and inquisitors trump them even harder. Mistborn snipers will use atium to make sure their coins make contact with slippery proto radiants and pelt them to death. Coinshots and lurchers can wreck Rosharan formations at will. Scadrian troops will have a natural strength advantage (skaa were literally built to perform manual labor and their capacity for combat when roused was noted during the series). Rosharans might have a height advantage, but if we're ignoring the fact that Rosharans will die in minutes under normal gravity we should probably ignore Roshar's gravitational benefits as well. In addition to this, Scadrial has a solid numbers advantage, possibly even having 3 times as many soldiers as Roshar does. 

Now I'm not denying that Roshar has a few advantages. Soulcasters are huge for an extended war, and if they resort to guerilla tactics Roshar could extend the war for a while with their infinite food.  However, we also know that the Alethi lost their first few battles against the Parshendi due to their inability to adapt in a pinch. The Parshendi lacked the numbers to capitalize on these mistakes but Scadrial has no such handicap. Scadrial will rout the Rosharans in the first battle  behind a koloss charge and rioting/soothing and the koloss will outrun the fleeing Rosharans and turn it into a bloodbath. The Inquisitors, being sadists, will let the bloodbath continue. Perhaps some smaller units will survive and Scadrial will take a few years finishing them off but Roshar will be done after the first battle.

[lyrei]

blackhoof can you quote me that amrams army is only 1k i have a different quote "Behind them, waves and waves of soldiers were lining up - thousands of them."

[asterion137]

34 minutes ago, lyrei said:

blackhoof trying to kill proto radiants when they are unprepared is like trying to kill miles hundredlives unprepared they just heal but radiants(they can fly do illusions, elsecall etc.) coming in with a shard blade to kill mistborn that i can see

illusions can't fool atium shadows, they're spiritual constructs. A coinshot to the head should kill a proto radiant since their healing is confirmed to be unable to heal serious head wounds

[Calderis]

@lyrei Stormlight healing is nowhere near miles compounding abilities. It takes longer and will not prevent death the same way. If they take a kill shot through the brain, or are decapitated or just take more damage than they have Stormlight on hand for, that's it. 

[Erunion]

Just checking up on this thread and chiming in; as mentioned back in the first couple of pages, a Rosharan phalanx is almost the perfect choice to fight koloss. The only thing better would be a Tercio. Phalanxes are meant to hold, and to push against an incredible crush. They also give you depth of spears. The first row stuck? Good thing there are 10 more rows behind. 

Reread Way of Kings and you'll see how a Rosharan army is supposed to work - proper formations are described in contrast to amarams undisciplined forces. The combination of shorter spears and longer spears (and possibly pikes) is ideal when facing an irregular force of lightly armoured heavy infantry/light cavalry. The only concern would be securing the flanks. 

[8bitBob]

5 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

What I would do is wait between battles, and send Mistborn assassins to kill Proto-Radiants while they are unprepared. Or, for that matter, to kill generals or other importnt figures.

Chiming back in to say: this. I touched on it in my original post, but this bears further elaboration. Up to this point, Mistborn have been used almost exclusively as assassins, not soldiers. They're not going to simply line up with the rabble and give impassioned speeches, bravely challenging proto-Radiants to one on one duels. A Mistborn trying to kill a Radiant would probably involve baiting them into a group of Koloss to slaughter (or Skaa. Let's be honest, this is the Final Empire we're talking about) and unleashing as much deadly metal into the air as humanly possible, friendly fire be damned, from a safe position where you hid among the regular troops. Or, you know, killing them in their bed.

Their tactics are fundamentally different, and I believe they're an important factor in this scenario. Regular troops are going to get slaughtered in this conflict by the very real threat of wizards coming to kill you. Scadrial has far more magic to throw around, and so anyone with Plate or Blade is going to be needed in every situation where you don't want your troops to just get completely cut down by coins.

This is where Roshar has a distinct disadvantage: it's really hard to hide a six foot blade, crystalline armor or a flying glowing dude. Mistborn are going to know where most of their targets are at all points in the battle, whereas a Mistborn can be incredibly hard to spot doing their job if they want to. Even Spook, a Tin Savant, mistook the Citizen and his sister for which was a Coinshot, and they weren't even trying to hide. In a conflict that is so heavily weighted upon taking out key targets, this gives Scadrial a large advantage.

Szeth really says it best: this power was not meant for assassins.

I understand someone like Kal could be planted among the troops and go in for an ambush, but every moment they spend not affecting the battle is going to have drastic costs for the Rosharan forces, and they're almost guaranteed going to be engaging from a range anyway. This is even ignoring the very real possibility that Seekers could easily sense Radiants due to the fact that they use far more Investiture than metalborn. It's already confirmed that this is possible, I'm just theorizing that it would be easy.

I just feel the discussion hadn't addressed this properly. Mistborn are not the equivalent of Shardbearers or even proto-Radiants: each and every one of them is an Assassin in White, and that's a whole different beast.

[The One Who Connects]

@asterion137 I can count maybe 30 Mistborn, give or take about 5, but nowhere do I see 50-60 sounding feasible. Is the original 10 count too low? Probably, but that depends on Noble politics. If we have TLR keep some Inquisitors back on Scadrial to keep the peace, then a few Nobles will keep some Allomancer presence to protect against backstabbing "partners." 

Coin to the eyeslit will more than likely work(I don't think the coins are all that wide) but until such point as our Mistborn make the connection that coins do little/nothing to Shardplate, all the Atium in the world won't teach them new tactics on where to aim. These are assassins who use glass knives and spraying coins. They are used to a much different aiming tactic than precision.

Oh and here's a good question: Does Atium improve accuracy, or does it improve your speed of processing/using the information that you "see" via Atium shadows? The former makes Mistborn Snipers feasible, the latter does not. Without training in long distance aiming via bows/rifles, increased processing power won't create skills you don't have. Unless of course you have a counterexample of someone using Atium from long range..

Im curious why you think Scadrial has 3:1 more soldiers than Roshar. Mostly because you seem to be the only one who puts it anywhere near that high.

@8bitBob Seekers could probably sense Surgebinders, but they'd have to sort through a lot more noise of other Allomancers than they are used to. Makes it just a bit less OP, but that may be enough in the early stages.

Unless I misinterpreted you, you put a warrior above an assassin in a fight, but then considered Mistborn (Assassin) as equivalent to the Assassin in White, who trumps Shardbearers (Warriors) without too much trouble.