Anniversary Game 2: Return of the Koloss

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Phatt, any thoughts?

[luckat she/her]

Lu glared at the papers that were scattered on the ground. What a mess. When she’d told the Tineyes to send a message, she hadn’t expected this.

“I told you to try to keep yourself alive,” she said to “The Amazing” Wyrm. “Not paint a huge target on yourself. Now the Spiked know who to kill to stop communications.”

She stalked away toward a newer person in town who didn’t say where he came from but called himself Four. “You want something to do? How about you clean this all up.” Then she pocketed one of the papers to examine later.

---

I want to note to Kas that I agree with you that Copper is useful for villagers. I just think it is more useful later, when we have fewer numbers and more to worry about with vote manipulation. It is also more useful if the Spiked don’t already know who can use it, which they can find out through the vote manipulation that would be blocked by it. I think it would be more useful to see what vote manipulation occurs right now for the information it gives than protect random people from it and possibly reveal to the Spiked who has Copper.

Here’s a list of the pros and cons of turning Copper off for a Village Smoker:
Pros: Help Seekers, info from vote manipulation, hide Smokers from Spiked Soothers and Rioters, not suspicious to Village Soothers and Rioters
Cons: Help Spiked Seekers, vulnerable to Spiked Soothers and Rioters

I think while we have more players than them and next to no information about them, the pros of Village Smokers leaving copper off outweigh the cons. When our numbers are fewer and we have an idea of who we should vote with, Copper will be useful to protect our votes. However, I suspect a Spiked Smoker would turn on their Copper and possibly protect one of their own from Seekers. If they don’t, they are vulnerable to being found by our Seekers (and say what you want about us not knowing we have them, they also don’t know if we don’t have them). So Copper is better for the Spiked to use right now than for us.

Since you have revealed yourself, I don’t think the pros of you turning off your Copper outweigh the cons. However, I think they do for other Village Smokers. Given your circumstances and arguments, I can’t say I am very suspicious of you for using Copper or revealing yourself (you're not really hindering the Seekers' task if they know not to scan you, and it is reasonable for you to want to reveal yourself as a role that is considered less valuable because of your poor survival record), but I think other players could be suspicious if they use Copper instead of turning it off. There’s definitely pros and cons, but I think it would be good to put pressure on potential Spiked.

I would be interested in hearing thoughts from everyone on the idea I proposed during the night for Soothers and Rioters search for copperclouds with their powers. I think that would be a good way for the village vote manipulation roles to be used early on. While obviously finding a coppercloud doesn’t mean they are spiked (we don’t even know for sure if they have any Smokers), it would be useful information. I’d say finding a coppercloud wouldn’t be something worthy of a lynch, but it would certainly deserve some discussion. If everyone gives their thoughts on this, we’ll also have a better starting place for who would be suspicious if there is a coppercloud on them.

---

Hellscythe, you missed Kas’s vote on Araris and Wyrm's vote and retraction for Mashadar and didn’t list Hero’s vote on Kas in your tally.

Here’s day's vote tally as far as I can tell. If I made any mistakes, please point them out.
Lopen (1): Hael1, Venture
Venture (0): Maill1
Mashadar (0): Wyrm1
Araris (1): Kas
Jain (1): Stink
Kas (1): Hero
Wyrm (2): HS, Mark
HS (1): Araris
Phatt (1): Maill2

 

As it is, Wyrm is in the lead. While I'm not quite sure what to think of his reveal as a Tineye, I also don't think it is a great idea to kill a claimed Tineye immediately. If he isn't Spiked, we're just helping them remove our communications.

[Mark IV he/him]

As it is, Wyrm is in the lead. While I'm not quite sure what to think of his reveal as a Tineye, I also don't think it is a great idea to kill a claimed Tineye immediately. If he isn't Spiked, we're just helping them remove our communications.

Well, we will most probably have atleast 2 tineyes in the village. Seeing as how we are 27 players, out of which, 1 is confirmed villager and 1 is a tineye, that leave us with 25 villagers, among whom we would have atleast 2 of each of 11 roles (counting vanilla villager as a role). Therefore, we will have atleast 2 if not 3 tineye.

EDIT:After much of talking in whispers, I have come to realise Meta's eccentricities in role distribution. But, i am still assured that there are 2 tineyes, due to the fact that there were 2 messages in the paper.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Mark IV

[luckat she/her]

Well, we will most probably have atleast 2 tineyes in the village. Seeing as how we are 27 players, out of which, 1 is confirmed villager and 1 is a tineye, that leave us with 25 villagers, among whom we would have atleast 2 of each of 11 roles (counting vanilla villager as a role). Therefore, we will have atleast 2 if not 3 tineye.

EDIT:After much of talking in whispers, I have come to realise Meta's eccentricities in role distribution. But, i am still assured that there are 2 tineyes, due to the fact that there were 2 messages in the paper.

 

Even if we could guess Meta's distribution based on what is typical, that wouldn't be two of each role. In previous games, Meta has had about a third of the players be regular villagers, and there's some roles (Coinshot, at least) that we would usually only expect one of. There might be only one Tineye because PMs aren't essential. I agree the writeup seems to imply two Tineyes. It's even possible there is a third who didn't send in a message. Conversely, we can't know that one of the Tineye messages wasn't actually from a Mistborn. I hope a Mistborn would make it clear they weren't permanently a Tineye if they sent a message, but we can't know. Also, even with two Tineyes, killing one means we are just one mistake or eliminator kill away from losing PMs (except for if a Mistborn rolls Tin). While we would be able to handle losing PMs, it is something that I think we should consider carefully. We don't want to lose a Tineye based on only a few votes.

[STINK he/him]

Why exactly are people currently suspecting Wyrm?

[Mark IV he/him]

Even if we could guess Meta's distribution based on what is typical, that wouldn't be two of each role. In previous games, Meta has had about a third of the players be regular villagers, and there's some roles (Coinshot, at least) that we would usually only expect one of. There might be only one Tineye because PMs aren't essential. I agree the writeup seems to imply two Tineyes. It's even possible there is a third who didn't send in a message. Conversely, we can't know that one of the Tineye messages wasn't actually from a Mistborn. I hope a Mistborn would make it clear they weren't permanently a Tineye if they sent a message, but we can't know. Also, even with two Tineyes, killing one means we are just one mistake or eliminator kill away from losing PMs (except for if a Mistborn rolls Tin). While we would be able to handle losing PMs, it is something that I think we should consider carefully. We don't want to lose a Tineye based on only a few votes.

Good points. But, i feel i'll still keep my vote on wyrm, cause he seems suspicious to me. I might change it near the end of the cycle, if I find anything new. But, currently, he is at the top of my list.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Mark IV

[STINK he/him]

And why is he suspicious?

[luckat she/her]

As far as I can tell, people find it suspicious that Wyrm claimed to be a Tineye publicly. They think a Villager wouldn't claim that because it would paint a target on their back for the Spiked, while a Spiked Tineye would want to claim to discourage people from lynching or Coinshooting them since they don't have to worry about the Spiked kill. I don't think there was anything else.

 

I'm inclined to wait and see if the Spiked rise to the bait or if Wyrm does anything else suspicious before risking our PMs on so little evidence.

[Haelbarde he/him]

We have yet to have posts since the game started from:

Alvron - Last online today

Bort - Last online today

Elbereth - Last online today Edit: Has since posted

Phattemer - Last online yesterday, posted in MR, citing family issues as reason for inactivity

Sart - Last online yesterday

Shallan - Last online a week ago

Lopen - Posted yesterday, online today

 

The list would increase if I ignored posts that did not contribute to the game discussion.

 

@Hellscythe: Did you say that Lopen has been active in PMs?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Haelbarde

[Mark IV he/him]

As far as I can tell, people find it suspicious that Wyrm claimed to be a Tineye publicly. They think a Villager wouldn't claim that because it would paint a target on their back for the Spiked, while a Spiked Tineye would want to claim to discourage people from lynching or Coinshooting them since they don't have to worry about the Spiked kill. I don't think there was anything else.

Thanks for summing that up. My thoughts exactly.

[Elbereth she/her]

El blinked, waking with a start to see the sun coming in through the window. Kassien let me sleep in again, didn't he? Seriously. I'm his apprentice. Waking up early is practically in the job description.

Sighing, she dressed quickly and scampered downstairs, still feeling a little sick from yesterday's test. She'd gotten the identification wrong, and it had taken her awhile to brew the antidote, long enough that some of the effects had set in. On her way down, she grabbed the note for her on Kassien's desk.

She grabbed a loaf of bread from the cupboard and ripped off a sizable chunk as she read Kassien's note. Antiseptics? Again? Lord Ruler, and with feverbane, too. I'm not going to get the smell out of my nose for weeks. Unless...

She smiled and ate the last bit of bread. Then she began to prepare her materials. She got out each herb jar carefully, making sure she was deciphering Kassien's scrawls correctly. She shook her head. Next time we do a thorough cleaning, I'm relabeling those things. Then, with a little smile, she grabbed the vanilla. It wouldn't react with anything else in the mixture, and her nose wouldn't be full of feverbane for days. And whoever it was used on might appreciate it, too. Her smile broke into a full-on grin as she put a single drop into her bowl.

Half an hour later, her smile was gone. She frowned at the mixture. Why wasn't it bonding together like it was supposed to? She'd used everything Kassien had said. Wetrot, laceleaf, feverbane... Arrowroot. Arrowroot to make everything mix. Why hadn't Kassien reminded in his note? Because it was another test, of course. And El should really have thought of it herself. She shook her head. I'm really not doing well recently, am I? Failing yesterday's test, waking late, forgetting the arrowroot... I need to do better. And I will.

As she grabbed the jar of arrowroot, El resolved that she'd finish these antiseptic batches in record time, and not only that, but she'd pass every test put to her with flying colors. Somehow. She grinned with a fierce determination, and went back to work.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Moving on to the other events of the Night. Seonid was an Eliminator in AG1, remember, so I don't think his death is particularly weird on Night 1 in this game. He was also rather active yesterday too, which may be a contributing factor. I don't think there's much point looking for actual reasoning in his death though, at least not yet.

There's not much point? Really. So, when would you say we should discuss that, if not now? (I forgot to mention earlier that my character is also very sarcastic upon occasion)

This is the first day. We need discussion today more than any other day, and you're just suggesting that we forget about one of the best sources of discussion there is. What's with that, Wyrm?

  

Okay. I was trying to say that the eliminators didn't want us to form PM groups, so they killed Seonid who was behind it and had put one of them into his message.  You do have a point though, if an eliminator was in the group, maybe they didn't have someone in every group, but the more I look at that reasoning, the flimsier it sounds. I was trying to propose a reason, but maybe it was merely a poke kill (is that the right term?). I'm just trying to figure out why they'd go after Seonid.

So. For clarification. Did anyone actually receive a PM from Seonid, or did he just talk about it with Kas?

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I did not get a group PM from Seonid/Kas.

Hael, Lopen has responded to my PM I sent him, saying he's sick and hasn't had much access to a laptop, but will try tomorrow. I'd expect him soon.

[Mark IV he/him]

Same here. Lopen informed me that he had no Internet access yesterday, and that he is down (health-wise)

[Haelbarde he/him]

Also, seeing as it has come up a few times, here are the distributions used by Meta previously:

LG1: 16 players

Regulars(6)

Smoker(2)

Rioter(1)

Soother(1)

Seeker(1)

Tineye(1)

Coinshot(1)

Lurcher(1)

Thug(1)

Mistborn(1)

 

Eliminators(4): Smoker, Soother, Regular, Mistborn

 

AG1: 28 players

Regular(8)

Smoker(5)

Soother(3)

Tineye(2)

Mistborn(2)

Lurcher(2)

Rioter(2)

Thug(2)

Coinshot(1)

Seeker(1)

 

Eliminators(5): Mistborn, Lurcher, Smoker(x2), Rioter

 

@Mail and Lopen: Thanks.

So inactives who have given reasons:
Lopen, Weiry, Phattemer(by extension Shallan? Though on rereading, it seems to say he should be able to post now...)

Edited December 28, 2015 by Haelbarde

[Mark IV he/him]

Unknown, or Four, as he now called himself, looked around the square. It was littered with 'the amazing wyrm' posters. They were a curiosity, really. One side had the poster, with its depressing colours, while the other side had strange markings on it. It certainly must have been a lot of hardworking to make thsee posters!

I guess I should do what Lu said. Atleast it will help clear my mind of this business of murder and lynching. So, four bent down to pick up one of the posters, when suddenly his back gave up. "Ouch!" He shouted aloud. I guess this is what you get for sleeping in the cold. So, with a cramped back , he made his way to the local apothecary.

After a few painful blocks, he finally reached the building. Painfully, he made his way up to the door, and knocked on it.

He heard footsteps inside, and when the door opened, he saw....

OOC: Elbereth and Kas, I have left what happens to me up to you. If you don't mind, please continue the story.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Mark IV

[Hellscythe he/him]

The list would increase if I ignored posts that did not contribute to the game discussion.

 

@Hellscythe: Did you say that Lopen has been active in PMs?

The people that would increase your list tend to be the most suspicious. Contributing without contributing. Maybe you should make a separate list of them as well.

 

Also no, I didn't say Lopen has been active in PMs. I only stated that he pmed me more than he posted. He hasn't been active this cycle much at all to be honest with you.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Hellscythe

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Yeah, as Mail and Mark mentioned, I've been feeling unwell lately, and have had limited internet access. Things have been busy with family as well, but I think everything is settling down and will be back to normal soon.

 

I've skimmed over the thread, but I don't have a whole lot to say yet. I don't think I agree with lynching the Capta.....I mean, Wyrm. >> I rather like PM's, and I think they can be a good tool for the village. I'm not saying we should keep him alive strictly for his role, but I don't think there's enough evidence against him to warrant offing him(and a fairly useful ability imo).

 

Venture, what do  I think about what? (insert Alvron troll  here about random things )

 

Haelbarde, I'll get back with you on what I think about the roles. Luckats advice about them during the Night Turn seemed sound to me, but I haven't had the chance to really think over them for myself too much.

 

I'm hoping to be more available tomorrow. If anyone would like to PM me, that would be great. I always like having a bunch of PM's! 

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Hm, interesting. Three votes on me overnight? I expected to generate some discussion with what I did, but not quite in that way.

 

I revealed myself publicly partially because I'm a decent target to be killed early on anyway. I don't usually get a Lurching on me, so as far as I see it, revealing myself makes me no more of a target for Eliminators, and more of one for Lurchers (better they protect someone likely to die rather than themselves when they're unlikely to be hit, as has happened in past games). Basically, if I'm going to die soon anyway, I might as well try and prevent that death. Though if we have two Tineyes, that makes me less of a target.

 

There was also an element of seeing reactions towards it, and who would try and use it against me. As I said, my goal was to generate some Day 1 discussion, as we usually are sorely lacking in it. Already we have three votes placed on the first Day against me, which is by far the most solid lynch we've had yet, and rather early on. 

 

I also felt it would be more fun than sitting for ages failing to think of a coded message to waste everyone's time. Was it the most optimal move for me to make as a Villager? No, though it's not the worst. But if Tineyes always did the most optimal thing, we'd never get any messages. It was the most fun thing I could think of, and I refuse to be discouraged of doing fun things.

 

To answer Elbereth, my point was 'yet'. I that looking for reasons in the Eliminators' kills early on is a bit pointless. Not later on when we have more evidence and can map things out better, but it is at the start, as we have a lot of experienced players with a lot of connections now. Tell me, who would you lynch on this singular fact, ignoring everything else that has happened? You didn't actually attempt to draw any conclusions from it either, you just reiterated the same question as me. So ultimately, using this reasoning, you're as guilty as me. Hell, everyone is except Mashadar Mistborn, since he's the only one who raised it.

[Mark IV he/him]

I revealed myself publicly partially because I'm a decent target to be killed early on anyway. I don't usually get a Lurching on me, so as far as I see it, revealing myself makes me no more of a target for Eliminators, and more of one for Lurchers (better they protect someone likely to die rather than themselves when they're unlikely to be hit, as has happened in past games). Basically, if I'm going to die soon anyway, I might as well try and prevent that death. Though if we have two Tineyes, that makes me less of a target.

 

Well, that is one reason. Another way to see it, assuming you to be on the Spiked, side is that-

1) You could easily give this very alibi.

2) You could be garnering protection from village Coinshots in late game.

3) You're looking at whom to eliminate later.

4) This also essentially could have and can protect you from lynching as we, the villagers, don't want to lose an important resource.

I know, I know. It looks like I am finding, some would say creating, reasons to make you look guilty, but I just want to make sure that an Eliminator does not slip right through our grasp.

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

Wyrm explains his actions well - and is an incredibly valuable role, so I will refrain from voting on him this cycle - until I'm a little more certain.

That said, Wyrm has demonstrated in the past an ability to make himself integral to, and 'lead' the village as an eliminator - see QF9.

I'm going to vote on Hael. You're posts are perfectly positioned to be helpful as a tool, but not contributing to the actual lynch discussion, and so not implicating yourself.

[Mark IV he/him]

Is it just this time, or does every SE feel this tense?

[STINK he/him]

Yes.

[Mark IV he/him]

I see.

[Kasimir he/him]

I had been suspicious of Wyrm since Night 1, and I'm not certain what to make of him now.

1. On Night 1, he roleclaimed to me right off the bat (it was the second message in our PM sequence.) Keep in mind that I hadn't posted in thread at that point in time. I responded with a flat-out what, angry emoji, and told him he was unbelievable.

2. I prodded him on why he told me his role early. After all, if I were an Eliminator (keep in mind that while Wyrm can read me, this was at the very start of the game: he had no baseline off which to work), I'd likely have gotten him killed (take down Village communication? Hell yeah!) and so I saw no reason for him to have claimed to me this early.

His response was that if I were an Eliminator, I'd likely have killed him on Night 1 anyway, so claiming to me wasn't going to change anything. Additionally, I'd be a prime suspect on his death. Largely, he claimed he wanted to see my reaction. (See: Troll/attention chull.)

3. After a few pages of tangents, I pressed him on the issue again. I told him I found his response somewhat unsatisfactory. I pointed out that given his public standing as a high-threat player and thus a high-priority kill target, it would be hard-put for players to immediately connect me with his death. (In fact, the last time someone did that was Aonar, and he was dead wrong.) In fact, those who played with me in MR9 would remember that as an Eliminator, I decided against Wyrm's death for reasons of expedience. Which further weakens the claim I'd be a prime suspect.

His response: A. He's not playing this game seriously: he just wants to promote as much discussion as possible before being lynched/killed, rather than the usual Day 1 'should we lynch or should we pass' debate. If he gets a Lurcher, great. Otherwise, there's little point in hiding.

B. He contacted me early because he wanted to troll me and see exactly how much he made me despair. (A lot, Wyrm, stop it, you attention chull.) He also wanted to ask me for help with the Amazing Wyrm poster before I mentioned I was busy.

4. I did help him with the Amazing Wyrm poster in the end. (Procrastination will kill me :/ ) Which probably explains why I was accosted by Maili, who thought I was Tineye #1 before Wyrm went to press. Tsk.

-

What I believe at this point is that I'm not sure about Wyrm. (Well, I always am, so I guess I've got to try harder.) I more or less just shared this exchange because I felt there was no harm in it now, and I may as well since the Wyrm issue is now on the table.

I was really suspicious of Wyrm throwing me this curveball on Night 1. But he is a troll, and he's not the only one who role-revealed to me, just to see my reaction to it. This Village is full of trolls, I swear...

I will say it doesn't fit his Eliminator style. In four of the games I've seen him play Eliminator, he's generally gone with the overly-friendly/helpful route. But at the same time, I also know that Wyrm has been making efforts to keep changing his Eliminator style, so what he used to do isn't very helpful a metric in terms of gauging how evil he could be now.

Edit: Almost forgot--thanks, Araris. At this point, I'm going to just go with Sart, with my main criterion being by and large players who can slip past in the background but are deadly. What's up?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Kasimir

[Mark IV he/him]

The irony of this just makes me laugh. Wyrm wanted to start discussion on day one (atleast thats his alibi, if he is to be believed). So, he revealed his role. Now, he has a discussion alright, but it includes too much of him in it. (Not in a good way either).

In reply to you Kasimir, I can only say that your exlaination of Wyrm's actions has neither strengthened my suspicion of him, nor has it reduced my suspicion.

In fact, his reasons of telling you actually strengthen my suspicion a bit more. His reason might have been what he just came up with on the spot.

But, this might just be my newness speaking here, as you can see that my experience with you guys is not a lot. (Almost zero actually).

(And yes, I do have to comment on each and every post )