Restricting Gender Roles

[RadiantNights]

One of the things that really stands out on Roshar is the very specific and limiting gender roles. Most of the things mentioned in Wok about gender roles seem totally silly and completely restricting. They don't even eat he same foods. I mean the men on this planet can't even read. How limiting is that? Seems to me that most of the men, after centuries of this, would be stupid and dull compared to the women. And the women's roles are even more limiting. Could you imaging how hard it would be to do EVERYTHING ONE HANDED? Not only do the women have to do things one handed they would never even think of fighting.

Everything about their gender roles seems intended to keep their whole society down and keep them from progressing. How can they not see that?

Finally here's the kicker. All of these restrictions are put on them by vorinism, so wouldn't it seem that vorinism is being heavily influenced by odium and not honor?

What do you guys think?

[Kurkistan]

I think going from "gender roles are restrictive" to "a malevolent entity likely put them in place" is a bit of a leap.

[Quiver]

I believe I remember a Word of Brandon on this; that there was a scholar who made a comment that the feminine arts could be performed with only one hand, leading to the whole safe hand thing. I'll try and find it.

As for how arbitrary some of the roles seem... Hm. I wonder if the divide is meant to be an echo of Honour and Cultivations roles on Roshar. Besides, just because those are the rules, it doesn't mean all the people follow it. I doubt if Darkeyed women have the time or means to segregate meals in their families, and I don't see Lift with a safe hand.

[Shardlet]

Safe hand is a Vorin thing and the darkeyes are clearly more practical about things (like food, gloves, etc.).  Lift is not from a Vorin kingdom and therefore would not wear a glove or conceal her left hand. 

[Aoibheann]

I've been looking at this too.  It seems like it's just an odd cultural quirk.  I double checked Dalinar's Recreance vision, the male/female split was not by order (windrunners and stonewards were both).  

 

Brandon is also challenging the idea literacy = intelligence.  It's not true.  Many very intelligent people lived before the written word was as common as it is today, they created amazing works and were literate in different ways than our current culture values.  

 

All that said, do I find it odd?  Yes.  A part of me wants to cosplay a Vorin lighteyes just to see how limiting it really is.  Will I roll up my sleeve after an hour, or can I go all day? 

[Quiver]

Safe hand is a Vorin thing and the darkeyes are clearly more practical about things (like food, gloves, etc.). Lift is not from a Vorin kingdom and therefore would not wear a glove or conceal her left hand.

Quotes like this are why I don't play here much But your right, practicality is an issue.

Brandon is also challenging the idea literacy = intelligence. It's not true. Many very intelligent people lived before the written word was as common as it is today, they created amazing works and were literate in different ways than our current culture values.

Agreed.

I've been agonising over how to properly phrase this, but... I find it interesting that in Vorinism, Brandon has placed literacy as a solely female purview. Particularly given the perception of fantasy and science fiction as a male audience.

And I'm not trying to derail the topic by implying there are no female authors or readers. But I've heard plenty of stories about the disparity there is between the sexes (and races), so I think Brandon has done something interesting by placing literature as a feminine art. The same goes for how men who can read are treated. I don't know if it's a reaction to the above disparity, or subverting the 'wise old man' trope, or just intended as a cultural quirk, but I approve of it.

That doesn't quite sum up my feelings right, but I suspect that if I try clarifying I'll say something inadvertently offensive. Speaking personally, I'm not particularly martially-minded; I like reading. The fact that, if I were Rosharan, I wouldn't be able to do what I enjoy is interesting. In a way. Kind of. It's complicated.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Quiver

[Chlehrma]

Keep in mind that not every culture on Roshar sees reading as a strictly feminine pursuit. The scenes in the bookstore indicate that the owner pretended not to be able to read in order to put his customers at ease. Additionally, priests (ardents) read.

[Quiver]

Given that the majority of the first books POVs are characters reflecting Vorinism, I think it tends to be seen as the default. Your right, there are other cultures that don't share those views, but we haven't seen any of them for extended periods. It feels (at least to me) as if Brandon is setting up Vorinism as the 'normal' culture.

Of course, I expect things to get shifted around and social, culture mores to change as the series goes on. But that's how it feels to me at the moment,

[DocHoliday]

Given that the majority of the first books POVs are characters reflecting Vorinism, I think it tends to be seen as the default. Your right, there are other cultures that don't share those views, but we haven't seen any of them for extended periods. It feels (at least to me) as if Brandon is setting up Vorinism as the 'normal' culture.

Of course, I expect things to get shifted around and social, culture mores to change as the series goes on. But that's how it feels to me at the  moment,

Well there are 4 Vorin Kingdoms according to Shallon, but they only encompass about a third of the Roshar, there is plenty of room for literate men in the rest of the world.

[Cromptj]

Plus the Ardentia can all read, male and female. If a lighteyed man really wants to pursue scholarship, he would have to join the priesthood, as many did pre Age of Enlightenment. The darkeyes, like many lower classes throughout history, would not be able to read anyway. The fact that vorin women are restricted to these roles probably means that there are more scholars per head in an equivalent real world society e.g. medieval Europe as they would all have to read, draw, know history etc. to be considered a "proper woman".

[Aoibheann]

I also find it interesting that Lighteyed men can/do have clerks read to them.  It's a bizarre path to scholarship, but it can be scholarship.  Imagine all the people with Dyslexia/dysgraphia (insert LD here) who may function better with those limitations in place.

[name_here]

Personally, I wouldn't read too much into it. Strong gender divides and various impractical cultural practices for women are really pretty common in preindustrial societies. It just seems weird because the split is different. I don't think it's particularly stronger than, say, ancient Athens, and while safehands are confining it's not nearly so bad as foot binding. Now, the Ardents specifically seem to be exempt from gender roles, with the possible exception of safehands, and can pursue any scholarly path and eat either type of food.

 

Interestingly, women actually seem much more critical to military operations than in medieval Europe. They're needed to handle logistics records, combat engineering, sealed orders, and long-distance communication. Dalinar notes that effective lighteyed officers depend heavily on their wives.

 

The historical antecedent might just be which Heralds did what, if there even is a particularly clear reason.

[11thorderknight]

Keep in mind that Vorin men can and do read glyphs, which seem to be almost a parallel written language. As for the safehand, even at the highest levels of decorum, it's covered by a very baggy sleeve, so while your fingers aren't completely free, they're at least as free as if you were, say, wearing a mitten. And aside from the nobility, women just wear a glove. So the restrictions do break down somewhat in practice.

 

Also, keep in mind that in the real world, various cultures had the custom of binding women's feet to make them functional cripples (china), wearing corsets so tight that they could barely breathe (victorian england/america), etc. These aspects of Vorinism are another way of Brandon emphasizing "Roshar is a very different world" to us. Which I definitely appreciate, since so much pulp fantasy happens in your standard Disney-fied king Arthur type setting.

[writelhd]

One of the things that really stands out on Roshar is the very specific and limiting gender roles. Most of the things mentioned in Wok about gender roles seem totally silly and completely restricting.

 

...

Everything about their gender roles seems intended to keep their whole society down and keep them from progressing. How can they not see that?

 

Isn't that true about most societal restrictions on gender roles?

 

I see it as Brandon trying out something interesting and different, somewhat in the spirit of Wheel of Time, even, whose creator was also admittedly experimenting with male/female power dynamics.   Quiver, I am not at all offended by your post, because it is a reasonable supposition presented quite earnestly, but you are nonetheless quite wrong that fantasy is consumed in vastly greater quantities by men than by women.  There do seem to be sub-classes of fantasy that are more consumed by one gender than the other, for example, romantic fantasy vs heroic fantasy vs whatever other subclasses I can't really think of to detail right now...but I think the high prevalence of strong characters of both gender is why Wheel of Time and now Brandon Sanderson's work are quite popular among both men and women.  JordonCon was pretty genderly diverse, anyway.   And I bet this forum is, too.  Yes, as a female ready I do tend to turn away from (most, there is LOTR after all) fantasy books that don't have enough women in them, or that have women in traditional medieval gender roles only, because what can I say, I like to read a mirror just like anyone else.  That's why I do love WoT and Brandon's stuff so much. 

 

But yes, I thought the safe-hand thing was pretty appallingly ridiculous.  As I recall, so did some of Brandon's editors, but he insisted upon keeping it nonetheless, so I assume (hope) he has some interesting uses for it in store.  And men not reading also seems a little bit intentionally restrictive just to give women an ability to have a bit more power in a medieval society than in the Real World historically they had.  But, it really comes back to the fact that gender roles historically, and even today, in various societies of the world, are actually just as appallingly ridiculous (or even way more so) for no good reason. Usually in our world their existence has had something to do with ideas about sexuality and the control thereof, which is ground Brandon is probably trying to stay away from, so maybe that makes the Vorin ones seem more silly to us than the ones we are used to experiencing.

[Crysanja]

Dalinars visions allready showed us that it was very different before this age.

nohadon or how hes called, in the vision spoke about writing a book, or Dalinar even suggested it to him.

we know he actualy did write the book later on.

 

i guess with more and more of Dalinars visions, the return of the KR and the starting Desolation there will be huge changes to 

social niceities like this safehand thing, female and male arts..

 

when life gets more and more difficult you might drop restrictions which might threaten survivel.

 

 

in the comming books we will see, that more and more of the vorinism teaching are wrong or corrupted. so changes are likely to come.

 

 

i also cant see all "new" male KR not reading.

or all the female KR not using weapons, and stay home heal/soulcast while ppl are dieing.

i guess there is alot of teaching required to become a true KR.

books are a way to make teaching less difficult and with a book you might not need a teacher all the way.

 

maybe even spren will tell their Radiant that it is silly to keep thouse odd customs.

 

just things like healing or soulcasting, can do alot of damage if something is remembered/tought wrong.

 

sure you can teach thouse things without books, but how many teachers will there be?

but many books could be produced.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Crysanja

[cosmic_dust]

Most of the differences between gender roles can be taken as cultural quirks. But how did illiteracy in men survive so long? Vorin kingdoms are a back-stabbing lot. So there should be some serious trust issues. After all, men are approving all sorts of documents without knowing what it really contains!

[Swimmingly]

I find it interesting that Alethi writing is a phonetic language, while an entirely different system of writing exists in the glyphs, which function much like a simplified version of Chinese characters. Lighteyed men are expected to know their glyphs, and it's remarkable to darkeyes when another darkeyes can read glyphs. I get the impression that glyphs are very good for short messages and signs, yet the society does its best to treat them as convenient pictograms.

Note that a certain message in WoR is written in glyphs

Basically, this is the way I think Chinese characters would be treated in China today if romanization caught on a few centuries ago.

[Swimmingly]

Isn't that true about most societal restrictions on gender roles?

I see it as Brandon trying out something interesting and different, somewhat in the spirit of Wheel of Time, even, whose creator was also admittedly experimenting with male/female power dynamics. Quiver, I am not at all offended by your post, because it is a reasonable supposition presented quite earnestly, but you are nonetheless quite wrong that fantasy is consumed in vastly greater quantities by men than by women. There do seem to be sub-classes of fantasy that are more consumed by one gender than the other, for example, romantic fantasy vs heroic fantasy vs whatever other subclasses I can't really think of to detail right now...but I think the high prevalence of strong characters of both gender is why Wheel of Time and now Brandon Sanderson's work are quite popular among both men and women. JordonCon was pretty genderly diverse, anyway. And I bet this forum is, too. Yes, as a female ready I do tend to turn away from (most, there is LOTR after all) fantasy books that don't have enough women in them, or that have women in traditional medieval gender roles only, because what can I say, I like to read a mirror just like anyone else. That's why I do love WoT and Brandon's stuff so much.

But yes, I thought the safe-hand thing was pretty appallingly ridiculous. As I recall, so did some of Brandon's editors, but he insisted upon keeping it nonetheless, so I assume (hope) he has some interesting uses for it in store. And men not reading also seems a little bit intentionally restrictive just to give women an ability to have a bit more power in a medieval society than in the Real World historically they had. But, it really comes back to the fact that gender roles historically, and even today, in various societies of the world, are actually just as appallingly ridiculous (or even way more so) for no good reason. Usually in our world their existence has had something to do with ideas about sexuality and the control thereof, which is ground Brandon is probably trying to stay away from, so maybe that makes the Vorin ones seem more silly to us than the ones we are used to experiencing.

First, sorry about the double post.

The thing with the safe hand: safepouch, for one thing. Less explicit and quite amusing scenes involving "nudity" - remember Kal's reaction to the prostitute dragged out with Sadeas' officer? He couldn't stop himself from sneaking a peak - at her ungloved safehand.

Anyway, despite it's implications, a safehand isn't all that restricting in most situations - if it's a problem, getting a hand free isn't too hard. Makes me wonder, do the Alethi lighteyes think of gloves like we think of underwear? Ha.

[Guest Alaxel]

Gender roles is a pretty weird subject. Generally, they exist for a good reason. It makes sense for men to be warriors because they're better suited to it than women are. Though, in Roshar, Shardplate certainly levels the playing field. This makes me very curious to learn more about the origin of the safehand.

Personally, I am against the breaking of gender roles. For example, back when I was enlisted in the Marine Corps Infantry, they were asking individuals in the Infantry what they thought of women in the Infantry. I was asked. It was a pretty interesting question so I gave it some thought and the conclusion I came was that it was a bad idea. The problem is that they were asking the wrong questions. They asked themselves, "Would we be able to integrate women in go the Infantry?" when the ONLY question they should have asked was, "Will women in the Infantry increase our warfighting capabilities?" And the answer was no. It would complicate things endlessly and why would you complicate the majority of society for a discontent minority?

So I hope to see similar questions explored in Words of Radiance. Judging by the prereleased chapters, I won't be disappointed!

[Chrono]

The main thing that I was interested in gender roles was the different food that the genders ate.  Nearly everything else I was familiar with: dining separation, different ideas about modesty, intellectual female genders roles, etc. However, the fact that the food is different is a very interesting twist. I think I'd have to become a heretic just to eat my salty food. 

[Wonko the Sane]

I don't think that the concept of the safehand needs to teach readers any lesson, nor do I believe that characters need to come to the realization that it's wrong. It's not a metaphor against discrimination in the real world; it simply presents an aspect of society as it is.

 

"It means what you want it to mean. The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon. Too often, we forget that."

 

-Hoid

 

This issue highlights one of my favorite aspects of Brandon's writing. He never pushes any opinion into his work; he merely presents the world as he sees it - or at least, as his characters see it. Rather than comment on how things should or shouldn't be, he simply allows you to better understand the way things are. As a result, his stories and settings ring far truer to me than many others, where they are contrived to support a particular viewpoint.

[+eveorjoy]

Gender roles is a pretty weird subject. Generally, they exist for a good reason. It makes sense for men to be warriors because they're better suited to it than women are. Though, in Roshar, Shardplate certainly levels the playing field. This makes me very curious to learn more about the origin of the safehand.

Personally, I am against the breaking of gender roles. For example, back when I was enlisted in the Marine Corps Infantry, they were asking individuals in the Infantry what they thought of women in the Infantry. I was asked. It was a pretty interesting question so I gave it some thought and the conclusion I came was that it was a bad idea. The problem is that they were asking the wrong questions. They asked themselves, "Would we be able to integrate women in go the Infantry?" when the ONLY question they should have asked was, "Will women in the Infantry increase our warfighting capabilities?" And the answer was no. It would complicate things endlessly and why would you complicate the majority of society for a discontent minority?

So I hope to see similar questions explored in Words of Radiance. Judging by the prereleased chapters, I won't be disappointed!

 

I agree that the majority of women would not be ideal for infantry, but there could be some women who could handle it. I doubt a woman would ever be the strongest in the army, but the are some that can handle a rifle or pistol with enough skill for combat.

 

Also shardplate and surgebinding powers are a great equalizers. Jasnah was able to kill four attackers with only one hand.

 

I'd like to avoid this discussion becoming an argument about equal rights. I'll just say there are no absolutes. If someone is able to do something they should be allowed to do so. If they aren't then they should not be given allowances regardless of gender.

 

Roshar however will have a different situation because magic is involved.

Edited January 19, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Wonko the Sane]

I agree that the majority of women would not be ideal for infantry, but there could be some women how could handle it. I doubt a woman would ever be the strongest in the army, but the are some that can handle a rifle or pistol with enough skill for combat.

 

Also shardplate and surgebinding powers are a great equalizer. Jasnah was able to kill four attackers with only one hand.

 

I'd like to avoid this discussion becoming an argument about equal rights. I'll just say there are no absolutes. If someone is able to do something they should be allowed to do so. If they aren't then they should not be given allowances regardless of gender.

 

Roshar however will have a different situation because magic is involved.

 

In this instance it wasn't that women were incompetent as soldiers - It was that integrating a new gender into the infantry would require instituting a huge number of new facilities and infrastructure, because of social issues like modesty.

 

EDIT: although, looking back over Alaxalel's post, I can see that he only sort of recognizes that.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Wonko the Sane

[Guest Alaxel]

No, trust me I recognize all of it. It's just such a tedious list that not a lot of people are really interested in. Like how it'd take a massive amount of training to get young, 19 year old men to instantly obey the commands of a female lieutenant in combat. And how men are more likely to incompetently triage causalities if there are women involved because of our natural inclination to protect women. Or all the adultery that would be going on. Adultery, by the way, is a really, really big deal in the military and it will ruin your career in some cases. Or pregnancy. And rape accusations. Trust me. Rape would happen frequently - but not as frequently as false accusations would be thrown around.

Hygiene alone would be difficult. When I was in Afghanistan, I lived in a patrol base with about 50 other men. We crapped in bags and burned them. We didn't shower almost ever, and when we did it was by standing around naked dumping water bottles on ourselves. We pissed in a huge trench we dug in the ground, then boiled it a way by burning diesel fuel that we poured on it. We had no means to do laundry, either. If we had women with us, we would have required separate facilities for ALL of those things as well as separate sleeping areas. Women would have menstruation to deal with which, after I described my deployment to my wife, she assures me would be an enormous pain to deal with under the circumstances I described.

But you're right, Wonko. Though I recognize it, I don't care that some women are able to do the job. It simply isn't practical. Hence the point I made about, "Would women in the Infantry enhance our warfighting capabilities?" Again, the answer is no.

There needs to be some separation of gender roles because men and women are NOT equal. As a gender, we have each have our own strengths and weaknesses. As individuals, we have our own unique strengths and weaknesses. That's why, when discussing gender roles on the scale of societies, we need to look at the genders as a whole, not what the individuals of each gender are capable of and that's mostly what happens throughout history. There are always notable exceptions and I think they should be allowed and encourage - I don't think we should build our values as a society around those exceptions.

But my ultimate point was this: If you examine gender roles, it's easy to see WHY they exist. There's always a legitimate reason behind them. And I am SUPER excited about seeing the legitimate reasons for the gender roles on Roshar!

[Arondell]

I had the impression that the Lift interlude among other things was to show that that gender rolls in other kingdoms didn't match that of Alethkar.  That brief scene with the Prime candidates arguing over who had the best(worst) essay or the best disqualifying reason comes to mind.