Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Each individual has to take responsibility for what they're doing. The Alethi are not mindless automatons who are forced to go to war after one of their people is killed. They could have avoided it. Precisely my point. If they are to view themselves as responsible for their individual actions, you should too. Rah rah was not the only factor in that scenario, and I think if you know someone will act a certain way in response to your actions, you are partially responsible if you take those actions. Same reason we don't feel bad for people who antagonize or egg others on if their is a response: they see it coming and proceed regardless.
Aether he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Rah rah was not the only factor in that scenario I love how several people in this Thread are now using "rah rah" as a word!
Rew he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 With the discussion on cities, I can't help but think of Kabsal's cymatics with the cities- who wants to bet that there's some relation? The major cities are so symmetrical physically because their underlying structure was initially determined and formed in the cognitive realm, which affected their reality in the physical realm. 1
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Also, the scenario that jumped into my head with the engagement went something like this:- Shallan takes woman lessons from Jasnah and tries them out on Adolin.- Adolin is not a fan.- Shallan confides in Renarin when she is in distress over it.- Renarin likes what he sees.Of course, I only even put Renarin and Shallan together because some nutty people on this forum want it so desperately ( ). It doesn't really matter to me what happens, but I'd also like to throw in my vote in hoping it doesn't take up too much content. Just in case anyone is counting....
Moogle Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Precisely my point. If they are to view themselves as responsible for their individual actions, you should too. Rah rah was not the only factor in that scenario, and I think if you know someone will act a certain way in response to your actions, you are partially responsible if you take those actions. Same reason we don't feel bad for people who antagonize or egg others on if their is a response: they see it coming and proceed regardless. In this case, though, the analogy would be more that some bullies play a prank on the principal, and the principal proceeds to give detention to the bullies and the friends of every bully who played the prank on him/her, plus any of their family members, forces teachers to actually hold the detention, and then the kids in detention start playing pranks on the teachers in protest at being put in detention when they were innocent. Oh, and there's some teachers made into slaves forced to hold still while kids throw eggs at them so other teachers can make it into the detention room without ruining their suits. (I'm bad at analogies.) For the Alethi, it's not detention and pranks, it's people being killed painfully with swords and arrows. I feel bad for the Alethi soldiers who died fighting against Parshendi who weren't responsible for Gavilar's death, and the same Parshendi killed by those Alethi. I consider Dalinar's decision to keep pressing the attack, attempting to win against the Parshendi, a huge, questionable mistake. It makes me question how he can be seen in such a positive to light to so many people on the forums here. To use my terrible analogy, he's the vice-principal who's decided that a lot of the children are really nice, polite, and innocent - but damnit, they aren't getting out of detention just because they did nothing! The principal was his friend, after all. I don't feel bad about the Parshendi who were hanged, I'm irritated that the Alethi did it so quickly. Edited January 8, 2014 by Moogle 1
dionysus Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 A government or its officials cannot assassinate a head of state without war unless there is a huge disparity on the power of the two nations. Since the Alethi are the most powerful people in the world, war is inevitable. You think if chinese ambassadors killed the President of the US and claimed responsibility Congress wouldn't have a declaration of war in a matter of hours? How can we blame Dalinar for prosecuting a war that pretty much every nation on real Earth would pursue until there was a clear victory. This isn't murder, killing a head of state is an act of war. Also in terms of realmatics I am also surprised about how independent shadesmar seems to be. We had hints of this in the "awesome" steelhunt reading but this really confirms it unambiguously. Right now I believe that instead of the physical realm being the main realm and shadesmar and the spiritual realm deriving there existance somehow from the physical, they are all equally self-determining realms that are in a symbiotic relationship with each other. Though self-determining is incomplete, because they also appear to be the same thing. I like how Moogle describes it as 3 different ways of perceiving reality all equally valid just a different perspective. I wonder if we will eventually get to see the third realm. 2
edgedancermd Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 All at once? It's like Christmas all over again, but way better.
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 So... in no particular order: 1) spren died at the recreance (probably due to the severing of the bonds?) 2) shallan and adolin? that's gonna be real interesting with renarin around ... really hope it won't go bad because of this 3) the 2 guys were def heralds 4) erm... wassap with jasnah's spren? i initially thought it was darkness 5) i knew elhokar's wife is up to something! 6) what's that pattern? a portal to the cognitive? 7) amaram and jasnah? lemme say that again: amaram and jasnah? ha, it's actually a pretty good match 8) in-depth description of soulcasting in the first chapter? what will be next? 9) navani's journal entries ... how could she have stopped it? does it happen because of an event in the kholin family?
meddler Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 All this talk about Love triangles, I'm glad no one so far has suggested Kaladin as a potential player, it would be a good way to surprise us, but they just don't fit together. 1
Natans he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Well of one thing i'm certain. The parshendi are very brave. They confessed a crime that they commited and died for they choice so their people could escape. A person don't get more noble than that. But, we know that the main theme in the book is "Journey before destination" and kill in the way that they did aren't correct. Edited January 9, 2014 by Natans
Shardbearer he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 I wonder if Shallan's symbol is has something to do with her illumination surge.
Natans he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Another thing that I liked is that Jasnah lectured Shallan about Ilusions and Shallan are a lightweaver probably with Ilusion powers a very fitting foreshadow =) 3
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Yes, that, and talk of perceptions also ties neatly into the nature of spren. Edited January 9, 2014 by Kurkistan
11thorderknight Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Did anyone else read the Jasnah prologue as Darkness manifesting out of the shadows about to go after her, and in response, she instinctively drew in stormlight and went to Shadesmar? I can't find a link, but I seem to remember that in the Ym interlude, Darkness also manifests out of the shadows. This could make sense - Darkness goes after surgebinders, which she is at this point, even if she doesn't realize it yet. And she is conspiring with assassins, which I'm sure is against the law, even in Alethkar. The reason this would be a big deal is that the two candidates for Darkness are the Heralds Nalan and Kalak, and of the two, Kalak is the one with the Transportation surge, which we know works with Shadesmar and shadows. 3
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Did anyone else read the Jasnah prologue as Darkness manifesting out of the shadows about to go after her, and in response, she instinctively drew in stormlight and went to Shadesmar? I can't find a link, but I seem to remember that in the Ym interlude, Darkness also manifests out of the shadows. This could make sense - Darkness goes after surgebinders, which she is at this point, even if she doesn't realize it yet. And she is conspiring with assassins, which I'm sure is against the law, even in Alethkar. The reason this would be a big deal is that the two candidates for Darkness are the Heralds Nalan and Kalak, and of the two, Kalak is the one with the Transportation surge, which we know works with Shadesmar and shadows. He "unsheathed a sword", so no, that's not Darkness. Shardblade and all. Edited January 9, 2014 by Kurkistan 3
marianmi Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Did anyone else read the Jasnah prologue as Darkness manifesting out of the shadows about to go after her, and in response, she instinctively drew in stormlight and went to Shadesmar? I can't find a link, but I seem to remember that in the Ym interlude, Darkness also manifests out of the shadows. This could make sense - Darkness goes after surgebinders, which she is at this point, even if she doesn't realize it yet. And she is conspiring with assassins, which I'm sure is against the law, even in Alethkar. The reason this would be a big deal is that the two candidates for Darkness are the Heralds Nalan and Kalak, and of the two, Kalak is the one with the Transportation surge, which we know works with Shadesmar and shadows. That was my first reaction as well. But no
Argent he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Author Posted January 9, 2014 Not only the unsheathing, but she also sees him - and recognizes him to be one of the guests - later on. The shadowy figure also follows her in Shadesmar. And it's described as made of darkness and covered in an oily substance. Oh, and there are many of those. So no, no Darkness.
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 In this case, though, the analogy would be more that some bullies play a prank on the principal, and the principal proceeds to give detention to the bullies and the friends of every bully who played the prank on him/her, plus any of their family members, forces teachers to actually hold the detention, and then the kids in detention start playing pranks on the teachers in protest at being put in detention when they were innocent. Oh, and there's some teachers made into slaves forced to hold still while kids throw eggs at them so other teachers can make it into the detention room without ruining their suits. (I'm bad at analogies.) For the Alethi, it's not detention and pranks, it's people being killed painfully with swords and arrows. I feel bad for the Alethi soldiers who died fighting against Parshendi who weren't responsible for Gavilar's death, and the same Parshendi killed by those Alethi. I consider Dalinar's decision to keep pressing the attack, attempting to win against the Parshendi, a huge, questionable mistake. It makes me question how he can be seen in such a positive to light to so many people on the forums here. To use my terrible analogy, he's the vice-principal who's decided that a lot of the children are really nice, polite, and innocent - but damnit, they aren't getting out of detention just because they did nothing! The principal was his friend, after all. I don't feel bad about the Parshendi who were hanged, I'm irritated that the Alethi did it so quickly. Moogle, you are excellent at many things so far as I have seen, but you are right, analogies are not one of them. As has been said, killing the head of a nation while pretending to establish a peace treaty is an act of war. The Parshendii acknowledge the war and accept it. In your scenario: The bully's friends would be the people who gave the bully the right to lead by allowing them a leadership position. They accept certain responsibilities too. Also, the parshmen were working as laborers far before the assassination of Gavilar. It doesn't even tie in. The soldiers that fight and die on the Alethi side do so intentionally. It is pretty much a theme that Alethi soldiers are all aboard for this movement and their would be problems if anybody suggested it was better not to keep fighting. You are trying to take a global, political situation and turn it into something personal.
+eveorjoy she/her Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I love how everyone assumes Renarin is going to be in a love triangle with Shallan and Adolin. That assumption depends on Adolin falling in love with Shallan. I really don't think they are going to work. I would not be surprised if they a broke up by the end of the book. We are going to learn about the horrors Shallan has forgotten in WoR. She might have to face and move past them before any relationship will work. Also, love triangles are getting old. A few comments. Prologue * I wonder if Jasnah's original target was the Eloikar's wife or someone else. There could have been other reasons Jasnah wanted Liss to watch her sister-in-law. She may have had a completely different target in the first envelope. * Amaram and Gavilar were conspiring about something, working against the Ghostbloods perhaps. However, whatever they were doing most likely was not a good thing. We learn from the prologue "To Question" and from Eshonai's reading that Gavilar was trying to do something the Parshendi were willing to kill to prevent. But according to the prologue "To Kill" they were most likely too late. I wonder if Amaram will try to continue Gavilar's work in the WoR. I also wonder if he will try to enlist Dalinar's aid to do so. * Amaram and Jasnah have a history. * Jasnah saw what a Windrunner can do. I wonder how she will react if she happens to notice a certain darkeyed Captain glowing or climbing up walls. * Jasnah has a history with the Parshendi. If for some reason the Alethi decide to sue for peace, she could talk to them, if she is over what happened to Gavilar that is. Chapter 1 * I went back and looked at the Shardhunt sketch as soon as I saw the title. * Despite being betrayed, Jasnah does what she can to help Shallan's family. Yet another reason Jasnah is one of my favorite characters. * Further proof Jasnah has issues with men. A bad experience with Amaram perhaps? I hope not. I've assumed Amaram's betrayal of Kaladin was a momentary lapse of his otherwise honorable nature. If Amaram hurt Jasnah in some violent way, that would make him a complete hypocrite who only pretended at honor. I'd rather Jasnah's history with Amaram be more mild than that and her overall distrust of men blooming from various experiences with more than one man. * I have a feeling that WoR will be a guide to Shadesmar and the Cognitive part of the Realmatic theory. Awesome. * Jasnah knows that she and Shallan are potential KR. I wonder if she will happen to notice this about Kaladin too and try to help him learn his powers. * Shallan has horrors in her past. Bring on her flashback chapters. *Shallan joins the polar bear club (people who swim in really cold water) in a gown no less. Yet another reason she is one for my favorite characters. Chapter 2 (I read it from the Steelhunt, but finally I can talk about it. Yay!) * Kaladin could be framed as a run away slave and so could the other members of Bridge Four despite the tattoo. In fact, those without a brand could be giving themselves future problems with a tattoo on their foreheads that proclaims former slavery. Some have said here and in other forums that Moash was wrong to put the Tattoo on his arm. Some even assume he will betray Kaladin because of this. I agree with Kaladin that Moash's choice was sensible, but I digress. Still, the Alethi system for freeing slaves stinks. A former slave must carry a paper with them the rest of their lives to prove their brands don't matter anymore. And if they lose the paper, then hopefully the clerks in the place they were freed still has a copy. Otherwise they are screwed. * Kaladin is not very confident about his or his bridgemen's situation without Dalinar. He expects Adolin to sell them back to Sadeas as soon as Dalinar dies. If Dalinar does die in WoR I expect the Bridgemen to clear out before his corpse is cold, unless Kaladin finds I reason to trust anyone else. * Kaladin believes everything he has can still be taken from him, including his powers and his men. I think Amaram could threaten Kaladin to silence to protect his Bridgemen. * Kaladin doesn't hate all lighteyes, just the ones in power. Kaladin doesn't seem to have anything against Rind, most likely because he is a Tenner. Kaladin seems to distrust power over eye color, therefore I don't think he is racist or eye-colorist. Edited January 9, 2014 by eveorjoy 2
Youngy he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 I had a feeling that "carries my lord's own blade" referred to one of the heralds, not the Almighty himself. Carrying on this... I thought this would refer to Szeth carrying one of the Herald's blades (most likely Jez, seems he has gained the Gravity and Pressure surges).That's probably all wild speculation though.
marianmi Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Going back to Jasnah's spren ... WHAT WAS THAT? 3
bschnebs he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 * Kaladin could be framed as a run away slave and so could the other members of Bridge Four despite the tattoo. In fact, those without a brand could be giving themselves future problems with a tattoo on their foreheads that proclaims former slavery. Some have said here and in other forums that Moash was wrong to put the Tattoo on his arm. Some even assume he will betray Kaladin because of this. I agree with Kaladin that Moash's choice was sensible, but I digress. Still, the Alethi system for freeing slaves stinks. A former slave must carry a paper with them the rest of their lives to prove their brands don't matter anymore. And if they lose the paper, then hopefully the clerks in the place they were freed still has a copy. Otherwise they are screwed. This was the case when there were still slaves in the US. When one was freed, they had to have paperwork from the local court proclaiming them freed slaves. I believe it was also common in ancient civilizations that freed slaves had to carry with them some token declaring their freedom
Gamma Fiend he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Going back to Jasnah's spren ... WHAT WAS THAT? I wish there were more Brandon Sanderson memes...
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