What's with all the Kaladin love?

[DreamEternal]

You know, there are events in our world which caused internal laws to wonder about these very things. The quote I provided in my earlier response was from the Nuremberg principles which established that crimes are committed by human entities and these needs to be punished accordingly.

The most interesting of these principles no doubt is principle number 4 which I quoted. It can be resumed as "It is not an excuse to say to say I was following an order" which, I believe, readily applies to Szeth.

Yes, I was aware of that. It is just that... Well, I am somewhat of a determinist. I don't have an easy time with the idea of anyone being truly responsible for their actions, for good or ill.

The idea of punishment as something that must happen to someone because they did something wrong also disturbs me slightly. I guess my notions of right and wrong are not fully... aligned with those of most people. At least before you look into a deeper level, since mist differences are more about hiw I see things than any possible alieness of my nature.

Still, I wouldn't have Szeth be praised or openly forgiven, or have all the destruction he caused forgotten. That would be only empty disregard for those who died and those who were affected by their deaths, and I still am against that. That is why I think a life of silent isolation and service would be best. It would cause the least suffering for all involved, as long as no one torments themselves because he didn't die.

Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Vander]

Edit: I also don't want him to become a true Radiant. Not because I think he is evil or something, but because he is the epitome of "Weakness before strenght".

Hmm... I have a hard time believing that. While what you say makes sense from one perspective, another could be that maintaining sanity in situations such as the one he was in was a huge indication of "Strength before weakness."

[AerionBFII he/him]

To Szeth though he has not committed any crime.

His punishment is to obey whomever holds his Oath Stone. He obeyed.

It drove him insane and unhinged him, he hated every second of it and he still obeyed.

 

Hmmmm, he's being convicted of a crime he did not commit and punished by the laws of his people AKA the Oathstone.

He abided by his peoples laws of always obeying despite it driving him insane,

I find him more a philosophical puzzle than somebody who is evil/a criminal/murderer.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

To Szeth though he has not committed any crime.

His punishment is to obey whomever holds his Oath Stone. He obeyed.

It drove him insane and unhinged him, he hated every second of it and he still obeyed.

 

Hmmmm, he's being convicted of a crime he did not commit and punished by the laws of his people AKA the Oathstone.

He abided by his peoples laws of always obeying despite it driving him insane,

I find him more a philosophical puzzle than somebody who is evil/a criminal/murderer.

 

 

Made me think of this quote by Victor Hugo from Les Miserables: 

 

"If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness." 

I don't plan on joining this discussion properly, though. Now I return to lurking.  

[AerionBFII he/him]

That is amazing! +1

Thanks for sharing that!

I spent a lot of time debating Szeth's actions but it will be one of those things with numerous arguments and no real answer..

We should make a Vote haha

Edited December 5, 2015 by WEZ313

[Guest]

 

Made me think of this quote by Victor Hugo from Les Miserables: 

 

"If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness." 

I don't plan on joining this discussion properly, though. Now I return to lurking. 

 

That line of thought has since been invalided by internal laws. You can't be absolved from your responsibilities unless you are deemed mentally unstable. By removing each individuals responsibilities, which is essentially what this line suggest, you thus authorize bullying, dictatorships, genocide, mass murders, public shoot outs as every single individual yielding a weapon is "just following an order" or is just "the poor victim of a system which caused him/her to act this way".

 

It is just wrong to put all blame on society and none on the individuals. Ultimately, the one who pulls the triggers is guilty and if he was following an order, then the one who gave it is guilty as well (but may be harder to catch).

Edited December 5, 2015 by maxal

[DreamEternal]

Lets just say we disagree and not derail this even further, please?

Edit: unsure why I quoted Maxal.

Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

Why is it wrong if the topic slips? I personally love when active discussion takes us to other paths and I would never want our threads to be restricted in such manner.

 

I am ill-at-ease to always been told (well not just me specifically, I did not mean by this I personally feel targeted. I don't, so rest assure) to stop arguing about a point I feel is interesting because it was not the intended topic. Each time this happens and someone creates an additional topic: the discussion dies. 

 

I'd rather we just kept talking and see where it goes... Was there anything left to say on the intended topic anyway?

[Vander]

Lets just say we disagree and not derail this even further, please?

Edit: unsure why I quoted Maxal.

It makes me uneasy as well, but...

 

Why is it wrong if the topic slips? I personally love when active discussion takes us to other paths and I would never want our threads to be restricted in such manner.

 

I am ill-at-ease to always been told (well not just me specifically, I did not mean by this I personally feel targeted. I don't, so rest assure) to stop arguing about a point I feel is interesting because it was not the intended topic. Each time this happens and someone creates an additional topic: the discussion dies. 

 

I'd rather we just kept talking and see where it goes... Was there anything left to say on the intended topic anyway?

I think we should just continue, as well: it doesn't make sense to add another thread just to facilitate an already ongoing debate.

[CHOUTAGOD he/him]

Where is the Love?

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

 As for the Radiants being forced to fight the Desolation, I'd like to point that for one Radiant, there must be thousand of simple soldiers fighting the same monstrous creatures straight from hell without the support of stormlight. Soldiers likely had a 100% chance of dying while Radiants likely had 95% chance of surviving.... Now of course these percentages are a hyperbole, but if you gave me the choice, I'd choose Radiant over regular soldier any day.

I was thinking the same thing. It'd be infinitely better to fight as a Radiant, because it doesnt seem as if 'common' soldiers are getting a pass. As for Szeth, notreally too concerned if hes punished or not. Only person I wanted punished was Sadeas. And he got his.

[Guest]

I was thinking the same thing. It'd be infinitely better to fight as a Radiant, because it doesnt seem as if 'common' soldiers are getting a pass. As for Szeth, notreally too concerned if hes punished or not. Only person I wanted punished was Sadeas. And he got his.

 

Well Sadeas was a greater evil than Szeth, I'll give you that. Szeth, at least, has the excuse of being manipulated and following some twisted laws. Sadeas is just despicable by himself.

 

As for the soldiers, I get the feeling those who were soldiers when a Desolation starts never lived to see the end. Those who would be around to see the final climax likely were those who were born through it and came of age towards the end. I suspect the reason why Alethi marry so young is linked to the Desolation: in those days, having children as fast as possible was a requirement as men likely didn't live much older than their early twenties.

 

Those we see right now and who aren't Radiants will likely not live through the second arc.

[Vander]

Where is the Love?

...?

[Vander]

Well Sadeas was a greater evil than Szeth, I'll give you that. Szeth, at least, has the excuse of being manipulated and following some twisted laws. Sadeas is just despicable by himself.

 

As for the soldiers, I get the feeling those who were soldiers when a Desolation starts never lived to see the end. Those who would be around to see the final climax likely were those who were born through it and came of age towards the end. I suspect the reason why Alethi marry so young is linked to the Desolation: in those days, having children as fast as possible was a requirement as men likely didn't live much older than their early twenties.

 

Those we see right now and who aren't Radiants will likely not live through the second arc.

That actually makes a surprising amount of sense. Still, I'm wondering what the second arc will be about: Will it continue the fight with Odium (I'm not going to say any thing about the Last Desolation, because 8 books for that one conflict seems slightly ridiculous), or something entirely different? I'm hesitant to say if it would be anything about the rebuilding and unification of nations after the desolation, as I can't see such a plot  lasting more than two books, max. Well, at least without getting boring.

[Stormgate he/him]

That depends. How psycho is Elhokar's wife?

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Well Sadeas was a greater evil than Szeth, I'll give you that. Szeth, at least, has the excuse of being manipulated and following some twisted laws. Sadeas is just despicable by himself.

 

As for the soldiers, I get the feeling those who were soldiers when a Desolation starts never lived to see the end. Those who would be around to see the final climax likely were those who were born through it and came of age towards the end. I suspect the reason why Alethi marry so young is linked to the Desolation: in those days, having children as fast as possible was a requirement as men likely didn't live much older than their early twenties.

 

Those we see right now and who aren't Radiants will likely not live through the second arc.

Oh yeah, for sure. I highly doubt any soldiers from either the beginning or middle of a Desolation lives to see the end. Most likely the reason they get married so young too, true.

That depends. How psycho is Elhokar's wife?

Dont know how psycho she is. But, she is pretty wasteful. Seems like either she doesnt care, or cant be brought to, about the poor and starving in her city. She surrounds herself with sycophants and yes (wo)men. And IIRC, the last we heard, Kholinar wasnt doing too well (uprising/revolt? Cant remember). You could just write her off as a pretty little princess character who is meant to fail, but I haven't seen any of those from Brandon as of yet.

[Vander]

 Dont know how psycho she is. But, she is pretty wasteful. Seems like either she doesnt care, or cant be brought to, about the poor and starving in her city. She surrounds herself with sycophants and yes (wo)men. And IIRC, the last we heard, Kholinar wasnt doing too well (uprising/revolt? Cant remember). You could just write her off as a pretty little princess character who is meant to fail, but I haven't seen any of those from Brandon as of yet.

Riots; The Ardents had been living it up, and an initiate basically got pissed and slandered them. 

 

I'm just about ready to write her off, actually. I mean, Brandon seems to be going for some growth on Elhokar, but I don't really think that she's major enough to really matter. 

[Jondesu he/him]

That actually makes a surprising amount of sense. Still, I'm wondering what the second arc will be about: Will it continue the fight with Odium (I'm not going to say any thing about the Last Desolation, because 8 books for that one conflict seems slightly ridiculous), or something entirely different? I'm hesitant to say if it would be anything about the rebuilding and unification of nations after the desolation, as I can't see such a plot  lasting more than two books, max. Well, at least without getting boring.

The Desolations were wars, not just battles.  An entire continent reduced to 10-20% of the population in some cases, potentially, and very possibly spanning 20-30 years sometimes, I would assume.  8 books to cover the huge Last Desolation backed by more of Odium's power than ever before?  Doesn't seem like too much to me.

 

jW

[AerionBFII he/him]

That depends. How psycho is Elhokar's wife?

Very it seems to me.

She's been up to all sorts of stuff while hubby has been out of town...

 

I think Szeth should just walk free, im not fussed about how he needs to be punished. Knowing BS Seth will eventually redeem himself but die heroically to atone for his crimes..

 

 

Desolation seem like an invasion/war not just a battle but a series of them.

Haha i was trying to describe this to a friend basically an Apocalypse war. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Why is it wrong if the topic slips? I personally love when active discussion takes us to other paths and I would never want our threads to be restricted in such manner.

 

I am ill-at-ease to always been told (well not just me specifically, I did not mean by this I personally feel targeted. I don't, so rest assure) to stop arguing about a point I feel is interesting because it was not the intended topic. Each time this happens and someone creates an additional topic: the discussion dies. 

 

I'd rather we just kept talking and see where it goes... Was there anything left to say on the intended topic anyway?

My understanding of the reasoning of this is that it makes it more difficult for others to find and join the new conversation. After all if the thread title and first few posts are about one thing how are people looking for a conversation supposed to know that it is in this seemingly unrelated thread?

In short keep threads on topic, if an interesting side topic comes up just start a new thread.

[Guest]

My understanding of the reasoning of this is that it makes it more difficult for others to find and join the new conversation. After all if the thread title and first few posts are about one thing how are people looking for a conversation supposed to know that it is in this seemingly unrelated thread?

In short keep threads on topic, if an interesting side topic comes up just start a new thread.

 

It's just that, based on my personal experience, most topics go off-thread after a while... It seems to be a natural progression.

 

I have no issues going back to the Kaladin's love topic in any advent, I have said all I had to say on the Szeth one. 

[Vander]

Eh, sure. Let's move back toward the core topic, then. Though, that probably means we're just about done, unless you guys have anything to add.

[muco]

Kaladin feels like the main protagonist of these books.

We do get POV of other characters but it is Kaladin who is the current focus of the series.

 

I highly doubt BS would invest so much in a character in first couple of books to just leave him out later on. As an author, it would not make any sense.

 

Only Malazan and SOF series are contrary to the norm of having a main protagonist. Doubt BS is going that way though. I would be very surprised if Kaladin's story arc does not run parallel to story arc of these books.

Remember, Kaladin is the only active fighter among the known radiants as of now and in most fantasy books they tend to rule the book time

[Cemci she/her]

Kaladin feels like the main protagonist of these books.

We do get POV of other characters but it is Kaladin who is the current focus of the series.

 

Kaladin isn't meant to be  the focus character of Words of Radiance - that's meant to be Shallan's focus book - Way of Kings was Kaladin's focus book. The focus books are denoted by the flashbacks that characters experience - there are only Shallan flashbacks in WoR, and only Kaladin flashbacks in WoK (save Jasnah's and Szeth's POV in the prologue, which could technically be considered a flashback, since the events of that are 6 years prior to the current events). 

 

So (although I don't like it), we're getting Kaladin-focus in a book that's meant to be dedicated to Shallan's character.

[Stormgate he/him]

That's likely because Kaladin plays a major part in the story, and will continue to for some time.