Kaladin betrays Dalinar in Words of Radiance

[PeterAhlstrom]

This is an interesting thread.

[Natans]

Hohohoho Mr. Peter Ahlstrom are putting some wood in the fire.

 

But I don't believe that Dalinar "saved" Kaladin, the other way around are more correct in my mind. What Dalinar did was pay a debt, what put a wrech in this theory to me.

 

But the part about Amaram looks right. Kadalin inner conflict about revenge and honor are alluded in the cover blurb so this could fit very well. Kaladin have to deal with Amaram ( I would prefer a spear in the gut in a fight where Kal kick Amaram chull with style scenario, but, Hey! this is me)

 

What you guys think about maybe that the "prophecy" aren't about Dalinar and Kaladin, how about put other person in Dalinar place. If this was a book one spoiler of a book two event, would make sense that the information that we need to understand everything aren't showed yet.

 

=)

Edited January 8, 2014 by Natans

[meddler]

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

 

I like the theory and think it is a definite possibility.

 

What if the person saying this is the bearer of Cultivation. 

She has lost her will to live, Odium or its bearer might've saved her at some point, maybe due to the theorised Romantic links. By protecting people of Honour, she might be keeping his memory alive. Yea I'm streching it a bit

[+eveorjoy]

Hohohoho Mr. Peter Ahlstrom are putting some wood in the fire.

 

But I don't believe that Dalinar "saved" Kaladin, the other way around are more correct in my mind. What Dalinar did was pay a debt, what put a wrech in this theory to me.

 

But the part about Amaram looks right. Kadalin inner conflict about revenge and honor are alluded in the cover blurb so this could fit very well. Kaladin have to deal with Amaram ( I would prefer a spear in the gut in a fight where Kal kick Amaram chull with style scenario, but, Hey! this is me)

 

What you guys think about maybe that the "profecy" aren't about Dalinar and Kaladin, how about put other person in Dalinar place. If this was a book one spoiler of a book two event, would make sense that the information that we need to understand everything aren't showed yet.

 

=)

 

Technically they saved each other. If Dalinar had not traded his shardblade I have no doubt Kaladin would have been beheaded and Bridge Four strung up.

 

Maybe an awesome fight between Amaram and Kaladin is coming. I've imagined what it would be like. However, this is Sanderson we are dealing with here. Kaladin fighting Amaram is too predictable and I can think of several believable ways it can be avoided. If I can think of them I'm sure Sanderson has too. It would create great conflict for Kaladin if he had to work with Amaram for some reason.

 

The truth is the prophecy could be about Waxilliam, Harmony, and Edwarn Ladrian (Wax's uncle) for all we know. (Yes those are Mistborn characters, but The Stormlight Archive seems to reference the Cosmere far more than any other Cosmere series.) Kaladin, Dalinar, and Amaram fit the prophecy and it is fun to speculate, however I doubt such a betrayal will happen in WoR.

 

I like the theory and think it is a definite possibility.

 

What if the person saying this is the bearer of Cultivation. 

She has lost her will to live, Odium or its bearer might've saved her at some point, maybe due to the theorised Romantic links. By protecting people of Honour, she might be keeping his memory alive. Yea I'm streching it a bit

 

I think that is entirely possible. We have as much evidence that the prophecy is about the gods of Roshar as any other theory.

Edited January 8, 2014 by eveorjoy

[marianmi]

What if it's not about Kaladin, but Adolin?

So we have Adolin vs. Kaladin?

[meddler]

What if it's not about Kaladin, but Adolin?

So we have Adolin vs. Kaladin?

 

With Renarin as the one who killed his promises/betrothal to Shallan ?

[marianmi]

With Renarin as the one who killed his promises/betrothal to Shallan ?

 

Exactly

[hoser]

I agree with this.

I didn't think that the dying statements were prophetic in nature.  To me they always seemed like statements made by entities saying something about current or past events.

Specifically, I think this quote is about the events of the Tower battle.  In this case, then the POV could be Sadeas.  Here is the quote:

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

The one who saved Sadeas life could be Dalinar.  The one who killed his promises is Eshonai, who was one of those who decided to kill Gavilar, in turn killing Sadeas' promise to serve Gavilar.  The raising of the hand could be him showing his true colors by betraying Dalinar.  The storm responding could be the battle or it could be Kaladin taking a hand. 

[Moogle]

I'm going to go ahead and throw out a crazy one, just in case I'm right: it's Dalinar betraying Kaladin.
 

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

• Kaladin saved Dalinar.
• Dalinar promised to protect the bridgemen. Amaram 'kills' Dalinar's promises, because Kaladin brings up charges against Amaram, and Dalinar can't punish Amaram because he's busy working under orders from Gavilar and they need to fight the Voidbringers. Or Dalinar has to break a different promise, I'm not sure.
• Dalinar's a Bondsmith. He has, according the amazing awesome theory that he's Order 10, the Pressure Surge. The 'storm' responding could be him doing a force wave or something.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Aether]

The one he protects could easily be Sadeas as well. He cannot do much about him directly because it would destroy Alethkar.

 

I like your suggestion better, though, since it links the two sentences.

[+eveorjoy]

Okay, reviving a dead topic with a crazy theory.

Here is the Epigraph from chapter 69 "Justice" again.
 

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

I've been concerned for awhile about how much the epigraph fits Kaladin, who has lost everything and maybe be able to ride storms. Also this is the epigraph to the chapter wherein Dalinar saved Kaladin's life. I really don't like the idea of Kaladin betraying Dalinar, but it does fit.

As Aether suggested, what if the the one who Kaladin protects is Sadeas?  Sadeas did kill Kaladin's promises to save all of the bridgemen. So Sadeas fits the Epigraph as well.

But why would Kaladin ever consider teaming up with Sadeas? To get revenge on Amaram.

Sadeas wants to kill the Kholins and his main obstacle is now Kaladin. He might not care about this until he fails killing the Kholins once or twice. Sadeas is predicable, but not stupid. He might start looking into Kaladin's past to find out more about "the miracle" and discover what Amaram did. Sadeas may just learn that Amaram enslaved Kaladin or maybe he will learn the complete truth. Either way Sadeas has shown that he will betray an ally if it suits him. Also Amaram is an ally to the Kholins. Sadeas may find it in his best interests to be rid of him anyway.

With this knowledge, Sadeas makes an offer to Kaladin asking him to help bring down the Kholins. In exchange Kaladin can have Amaram's life.

I think Kaladin would consider it and might even agree for a time. His anger at lighteyes in general, and at Amaram in particular, does corrupt him.

Chapter 46 "Child of Tanavast" pg 662

Syl fell silent for a moment. “This darkness about you when you talk of them frightens me, Kaladin. You stop being yourself when you think about lighteyes.”

Perhaps he will protect Sadeas from being caught and tried for one of his assassination attempts on the Kholins. Kaladin, then changes his mind at the last minute and use his Windrunner powers ("I raise my hand the storm responds") to save Dalinar and Kholins.

 

What do you think?

[Aminar]

I've always felt like a vast majority of those are from the PoV of the Heralds. Many of them are clearly from the PoV of someone who is trapped in a torturous prison(I wonder who...) Besides which, many of them seem to be happening at the time the actual thought is hapening. 1000 days till desolation and whatnot.

That and, with that being first person I doubt it will show back up again. It wouldn't fit with the writing of the rest of the book.

[don_karma_II]

Maybe Kaladin protects Szeth against Dalinar

[+eveorjoy]

I've always felt like a vast majority of those are from the PoV of the Heralds. Many of them are clearly from the PoV of someone who is trapped in a torturous prison(I wonder who...) Besides which, many of them seem to be happening at the time the actual thought is hapening. 1000 days till desolation and whatnot.

That and, with that being first person I doubt it will show back up again. It wouldn't fit with the writing of the rest of the book.

 

The epigraph of chapter 59 in WoK was clearly about Kaladin saving Dalinar and it was in first person POV.

 

 

“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”

 

 

So not all of the Epigraphs are about the Heralds and Kaladin becoming the only Windrunner makes him very much a part of the Desolation that is coming.

 

@don_karma_II: How did Szeth break Kaladin's promises?

Edited February 16, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Aleksiel]

Why not the other way around - Dalinar standing against Kaladin? 

[+eveorjoy]

Why not the other way around - Dalinar standing against Kaladin? 

 

Who is the one that Dalinar protects and how did he break Dalinar's promises? Could Dalinar control storms some how?

[Aleksiel]

Who is the one that Dalinar protects and how did he break Dalinar's promises? Could Dalinar control storms some how?

 

Sadeas may be? And Dalinar could have a spren since he'll be a bondsmith, though I have no idea how he could control a storm.

 

That last part makes me think of Szeth and his Jezrien's Honorblade. But this doesn't explain anything on who 'killed his promises' and so on.

 

I admit the only argument I can give is that the snippet doesn't feel like Kaladin's PoV. 

[AerionBFII]

No he won't... not intentionally it would undermine the whole KR Honor code.

I think Kaladin vs Szeth would be a....humbling experience for him but i think they will be more shocked to meet each other..

 

Both men (Kaladin and Dalinar) are to honest and honorable to break their words but Amaram could be a soar spot for both of them

 

Considering Dalinar and Gavilar were friends with him and what he did to Kaladin.

 

The main problem i think will be Restares the man who Gavilar mentioned as a possibility for hiring szeth to assasinate him (before Szeth said it was the Parshendi) He is also the one who i think talked Amaram convinced to steel the Shardplate and Shardblade Kaladin won.

[don_karma_II]

The epigraph of chapter 59 in WoK was clearly about Kaladin saving Dalinar and it was in first person POV.

 

 

 

So not all of the Epigraphs are about the Heralds and Kaladin becoming the only Windrunner makes him very much a part of the Desolation that is coming.

 

@don_karma_II: How did Szeth break Kaladin's promises?

 

Only promise Kaladin has made right now is that he will protect Bridge 4. His promises are killed if Szeth kills Bridge 4 and he is in a position where he can't protect. It was just a thought. 

[+eveorjoy]

I admit the only argument I can give is that the snippet doesn't feel like Kaladin's PoV. 

 

The Epigraph from chapter 59 doesn't have Kaladin's particular voice either and yet it is clearly a prediction of the end of chapter 67 "words."

 

Kaladin may not be the betrayer, but the Epigraph fits Kaladin, Dalinar, and Sadeas when you consider that Sadeas could tempt Kaladin and would have reason to do so.

[don_karma_II]

Consider this scenario: Kaladin beats Szeth and spares his life as it doesn't feel right to kill Szeth. Adolin and Dalinar riding thrill wants vengeance for Gavilar. Kaladin steps in and protects Szeth.

Kaladin wins Szeth survives, everybody lives happily ever after.

[+eveorjoy]

Consider this scenario: Kaladin beats Szeth and spares his life as it doesn't feel right to kill Szeth. Adolin and Dalinar riding thrill wants vengeance for Gavilar. Kaladin steps in and protects Szeth.

Kaladin wins Szeth survives, everybody lives happily ever after.

 

Happily ever after, eh...?

 

Your idea isn't bad, it's just Szeth doesn't fit the epigraph as well as Sadeas. Of course, my theory could likely be wrong too.

[don_karma_II]

Happily ever after, eh...?

Your idea isn't bad, it's just Szeth doesn't fit the epigraph as well as Sadeas. Of course, my theory could likely be wrong too.

Yup.. I'm a sucker for happily ever afters..<3

[Aleksiel]

The Epigraph from chapter 59 doesn't have Kaladin's particular voice either and yet it is clearly a prediction of the end of chapter 67 "words."

 

Kaladin may not be the betrayer, but the Epigraph fits Kaladin, Dalinar, and Sadeas when you consider that Sadeas could tempt Kaladin and would have reason to do so.

 

At first, I thought it was a new glimpse, because I had completely forgotten this was in WoK. How is it a prediction for chapter 67?  How is Kal protecting the one who killed his promises? Sorry, may be I didn't understand your post. 

 

I was thinking something a bit far fetched after reading a topic on Jezere becoming evil. If the death chants are about the Heralds and KR (at least some of them), then may be this refers to Jezrien betraying Honor (breaking the Oathpact) and making some new agreement with Odium perhaps. Just a thought.

[+eveorjoy]

At first, I thought it was a new glimpse, because I had completely forgotten this was in WoK. How is it a prediction for chapter 67?  How is Kal protecting the one who killed his promises? Sorry, may be I didn't understand your post. 

 

I was thinking something a bit far fetched after reading a topic on Jezere becoming evil. If the death chants are about the Heralds and KR (at least some of them), then may be this refers to Jezrien betraying Honor (breaking the Oathpact) and making some new agreement with Odium perhaps. Just a thought.

 

Sorry, but I assumed you would know I was speaking of two different Epigraphs. The fault is mine. I realize I wasn't clear. Let me explain. ( Long post coming)

 

My original post was about the the Epigraph from chapter 69 "Justice"

 

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

 

I will come back to this epigraph and how it maybe about Kaladin, Sadeas, and Dalinar. For the moment, I please be aware that this epigraph was not fulfilled in TWoKs.

 

You then said that the epigraph doesn't feel like Kaladin's POV.

 

So I brought up the Epigraph from chapter 59 "An Honor"

 

“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”

 

This also does not feel like Kaladin's POV. But of course, he didn't say it a lighteyed five-year-old did. None the less it is still about the events at the end of chapter 67 "Words" I'll compare the passage to the scene on pages 925-926. Parts will be removed for brevity. The Epigraph from chapter 59 in blue. My extra comments in red.

 

"Kaladin screamed, reaching the end of the bridge. Finding a tiny surge of strength somewhere, he raised his spear and threw himself off the end of the wooden platform, launching into the air above the cavernous void." 

Above the final void I hang,

 

"Bridgemen cried out in dismay. Syl zipped about him with worry. Parshendi looked up with amazement as a lone bridgeman sailed through the air toward them."  friends behind, friends before. The bridgeman were behind Kaladin and Dalinar's army waited on the other side of the chasm.

 

"His drained, worn-out body barely had any strength left. In that moment of crystallized time, he looked down on his enemies. Parshendi with their marbled red and black skin. Soldiers raising finely crafted weapons, as if to cut him from the sky. Strangers, oddities in carapace breastplates and skullcaps. Many of them wearing beards.

Beards woven with glowing gemstones.

Kaladin breathed in."  The feast I must drink clings to their faces,

 

"The Words, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind. In that moment, Kaladin was amazed to realize that he knew them, though they’d never been told to him." and the words I must speak spark in my mind.

 

"“I will protect those who cannot protect themselves,” he whispered. The Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant."

The old oaths will be spoken anew.

 

This proves the Epigraph from chapter 59 predicted Kaladin saving Dalinar.

 

If one Epigraph is about Kaladin surely other Death Chant Epigraphs could be as well.

 

Back to Chapter 69 Epigraph.

 

“All is withdrawn for me." Kaladin lost everything.

 

"I stand against the one who saved my life." Dalinar saved Kaladin and Bridge four from execution by trading his shardblade to Sadeas.

 

I protect the one who killed my promises. Sadeas caused Kaladin to fail to save many of the bridgemen he promised to save. Kaladin maybe willing to help Sadeas if Sadeas promises him Amaram's life.

 

I raise my hand. The storm responds.” Kaladin is a Windrunner and has already ridden a storm. The storm could respond to him.

 

Could I be wrong. Yes. But the Epigraph could does fit Kaladin, Dalinar, and Sadeas. And just as the Epigraph from chapter 59 doesn't feel like Kaladin's POV, the Epigraph from chapter 69 doesn't need to feel like Kaladin's POV to be about him.

 

I hope this post was clearer. If not, I'm sorry. I tend to write better narrative fiction than analytical arguments.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2014 by eveorjoy