vatsan16 Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 Just finished reading the book and was amazing! Was searching for discussions about the person she was talking too just before she attacked the governors mansion.If I remember correctly, she said, "you know he is just another pawn," and when wax asks what she says I was not talking to Waxillium. Why was he able to hear her talk to someone else like it was cross talk? Was it intentional from her perspective? So many questions. Such a nice book! 7
BeskarKomrk he/him Posted October 23, 2015 Posted October 23, 2015 I have two potential theories here. 1. Bleeder was talking to Harmony through Wax. She wants to tell Harmony something, but obviously doesn't want to spike herself and communicate with him directly. She knows that Harmony can hear when Wax thinks, so she puts the message through Wax. In this case, the cross-talk is obviously intentional. 2. Bleeder was talking to whatever entity gave her the spike of the unknown metal (Trell? Autonomy?). It seems reasonable to me that, in light of the theories here on the forums that the new metal is a god metal, whichever being created the metal would also be able to communicate through it as Ruin and Preservation can. In this case, I don't believe the cross-talk is intentional, but Bleeder could be allowing Wax to overhear. Actually, that gives me another idea. 3. Bleeder wasn't talking to anybody, but she wanted to freak Wax out, so she claimed to be talking to someone else. I think, in any of these cases, Bleeder is talking about Wax. She is saying Wax is just another pawn of Harmony's. This fits in very well with the rest of the conversation and the ending of the book, where she tries to show him exactly that. 2
Firehead13 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 After reading, I interpreted it as her talking to Trell. The context here being Trell - "Kill him" Bleeder - "You know he's just another pawn." We know that she's at least fond of Wax, so trying to convince the guy above her that she doesn't need to kill him is within character. 2
PeterAhlstrom he/him Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 This is a very good question. 14
natc Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 After reading, I interpreted it as her talking to Trell. The context here being Trell - "Kill him" Bleeder - "You know he's just another pawn." We know that she's at least fond of Wax, so trying to convince the guy above her that she doesn't need to kill him is within character. Is the default hemalurgic telepathy "spam mail" message just supposed to be "Kill him!"? XD 7
DreamEternal Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Is the default hemalurgic telepathy "spam mail" message just supposed to be "Kill him!"? XD What else did you expect? "Lure him into a dark alley"? "Serve him cookies"? Edited October 25, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 2
skaa he/him Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 What else did you expect? "Lure him into a dark alley"? "Serve him cookies"? "Tickle him!" 1
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) EDIT: Just remembered Blaze1616 has this similar idea, /Shardfail I'm wondering if Saze has expelled the excess Ruin, perhaps early on, and it has somehow gained sapience/sentience. As we know Ruin can talk/project the holder's thoughts into the minds of those with Spikes/holes in the spiritweb, whilst Preservation could only hear their thoughts but not convey it's own directly. In book we see a couple of conversations using cognitive methods; Wax and Harmony & Paalm plus this Mystery entity. In Era 1, it is shown that Ruin can only know what someone was thinking by hearing their words/thoughts spoken aloud (along with changing any words not transcribed into metal) In Wax's scenario, we see Harmony both speaking into and reading Wax's mind, as well as Wax responding verbally aloud, perhaps due to normal human behaviour, but he did have the option of conversing entirely through his mind, as Harmony has both Ruin's and Preservations abilities so Wax could have just thought his responses to Harmony during their chat. In Paalm's situation, we know something was said to Paalm for her to reply the way she did but what if the entity speaking to her can only hear the reply if it was spoken aloud? It fits with her motive, she thinks that freeing Elendel from Harmony's touch is a good thing but it would also ruin the city completely. You could argue Elendel is a mix of Preservation and Ruin but it is more the former as Harmony expresses his surprise at how slowly their society is progressing (stagnation = too much Preservation). TL;DR - The entity is the excess Ruin that has perhaps become a Splinter Edited October 25, 2015 by ParadoxSpren 2
Blaze1616 he/him Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 EDIT: Just remembered Blaze1616 has this similar idea, /Shardfail I'm wondering if Saze has expelled the excess Ruin, perhaps early on, and it has somehow gained sapience/sentience. As we know Ruin can talk/project the holder's thoughts into the minds of those with Spikes/holes in the spiritweb, whilst Preservation could only hear their thoughts but not convey it's own directly. In book we see a couple of conversations using cognitive methods; Wax and Harmony & Paalm plus this Mystery entity. In Era 1, it is shown that Ruin can only know what someone was thinking by hearing their words/thoughts spoken aloud (along with changing any words not transcribed into metal) In Wax's scenario, we see Harmony both speaking into and reading Wax's mind, as well as Wax responding verbally aloud, perhaps due to normal human behaviour, but he did have the option of conversing entirely through his mind, as Harmony has both Ruin's and Preservations abilities so Wax could have just thought his responses to Harmony during their chat. In Paalm's situation, we know something was said to Paalm for her to reply the way she did but what if the entity speaking to her can only hear the reply if it was spoken aloud? It fits with her motive, she thinks that freeing Elendel from Harmony's touch is a good thing but it would also ruin the city completely. You could argue Elendel is a mix of Preservation and Ruin but it is more the former as Harmony expresses his surprise at how slowly their society is progressing (stagnation = too much Preservation). TL;DR - The entity is the excess Ruin that has perhaps become a Splinter My name is Blaze1616 and I approve this message. I really like this theory. My only remaining question is how Harmony lost sight of his "little" splinter child. 1
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) My name is Blaze1616 and I approve this message. I really like this theory. My only remaining question is how Harmony lost sight of his "little" splinter child. It could be possible that since his Shards are intermingled slightly, combined with the fact that when we see Vin and Ati on the Shardplane any actions are negated, that given the Shards polarised Intents Saze's own Ruin could be diverting his gaze, if how he finds people is using Preservation. Or perhaps his Intermingled nature prevents him from finding it somehow, or maybe like from Era 1, Ruin couldn't seethe Atium so perhaps it has shielded itself. That or this splinter is hiding itself, hence the use of agents. Who else would know more of Hemalurgy and want to ruin what Harmony helped build more than Ruin? The trell spike could be an Atium/Lerasium/other-metal alloy that was perhaps more Atium (ergo, Decay/Ruin) given the red rust-like flecks Edited October 29, 2015 by ParadoxSpren
skaa he/him Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) The Harmony Splinter thing reminds me of the Kelsier theory that Weiry and Moogle proposed, in that both involve a local origin for the big bad. Moogle also proposed that Kelsier's cognitive shadow was given a portion of Ruin by Harmony for whatever mysterious reason. In that case Kelsier would be like a cognitive shadow version of the Returned, a dead person possessing a Splinter (i.e. of Harmony). I'm not sure if a Splinter of Harmony could have its own metal different from lerasium, atium, and harmonium, and therefore be a metal unknown to Harmony himself, but it is an interesting idea because it does away with the need to assume another Shard is involved in the "Trell conspiracy". Edited October 30, 2015 by skaa
StormingTexan he/him Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I have to say this makes a lot of sense to me as the "Shard we know". The whole Autonomy thing possible classic misdirection from Brandon or just a happenstance on its timing. I mean really it was just an answer to a question and it spread like wild fire because of the timing. 1
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) The Harmony Splinter thing reminds me of the Kelsier theory that Weiry and Moogle proposed, in that both involve a local origin for the big bad. Moogle also proposed that Kelsier's cognitive shadow was given a portion of Ruin by Harmony for whatever mysterious reason. In that case Kelsier would be like a cognitive shadow version of the Returned, a dead person possessing a Splinter (i.e. of Harmony). I'm not sure if a Splinter of Harmony could have its own metal separate from lerasium, atium, and harmonium, and therefore be a metal unknown to Harmony himself, but it is an interesting idea because it does away with the need to assume another Shard is involved in the "Trell conspiracy". EDITED: rewritten for cohesive logic The reason I'd go with Splinter of Ruin is due to Saze expelling the Ruin early on, before the Shards started to mesh. If that above theory about Kels is true, he could perhaps have decided to pass on before the Intent corrupted him hence Harmony's comment, and it could be possible that his departing left an imprint on the Splinter similarly to Stormlight Archive. This imprint could have contained corrupted emotions/memories of Kels' thoughts regarding nobles/high society, ergo the situation present in Era 2. Edited October 29, 2015 by ParadoxSpren 1
Caevita he/him Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 So, I have a very tenuous theory on this topic. I think the dialogue about "he's just another pawn" is likely bleeder and trell talking. But, "You know he's just another pawn" seems like a very good reason to kill Wax, not let him live. What if Wax was having that conversation with Trell all along? Okay, well I did warn you it was tenuous. But, the thing is, Bleeder called Wax "Wax" in the dialogue at the party. More specifically, she called him by his nickname twice, and never by his full name. Then in the dialogue in the mist, she calls him Waxillium, twice, and never by his nickname. It seems like a strange thing to happen on accident. And then Bleeder talks to Wax out loud right after that. But I don't know if that makes my case better or worse to be honest. tl;dr: "you know he's just another pawn" was Trell trying to convince Bleeder that Wax wasn't really all that important. 2
Ookla the Absent Posted November 27, 2015 Posted November 27, 2015 This is a very good question. Yes it is. Not sure why Peter pointed that out though... Paranoia: Are we getting close, or trolled?
Bremen Posted November 29, 2015 Posted November 29, 2015 Yes it is. Not sure why Peter pointed that out though... Paranoia: Are we getting close, or trolled? We're getting closely trolled. 1
Ari he/him Posted November 29, 2015 Posted November 29, 2015 EDIT: Just remembered Blaze1616 has this similar idea, /Shardfail I'm wondering if Saze has expelled the excess Ruin, perhaps early on, and it has somehow gained sapience/sentience. As we know Ruin can talk/project the holder's thoughts into the minds of those with Spikes/holes in the spiritweb, whilst Preservation could only hear their thoughts but not convey it's own directly. In book we see a couple of conversations using cognitive methods; Wax and Harmony & Paalm plus this Mystery entity. In Era 1, it is shown that Ruin can only know what someone was thinking by hearing their words/thoughts spoken aloud (along with changing any words not transcribed into metal) In Wax's scenario, we see Harmony both speaking into and reading Wax's mind, as well as Wax responding verbally aloud, perhaps due to normal human behaviour, but he did have the option of conversing entirely through his mind, as Harmony has both Ruin's and Preservations abilities so Wax could have just thought his responses to Harmony during their chat. In Paalm's situation, we know something was said to Paalm for her to reply the way she did but what if the entity speaking to her can only hear the reply if it was spoken aloud? It fits with her motive, she thinks that freeing Elendel from Harmony's touch is a good thing but it would also ruin the city completely. You could argue Elendel is a mix of Preservation and Ruin but it is more the former as Harmony expresses his surprise at how slowly their society is progressing (stagnation = too much Preservation). TL;DR - The entity is the excess Ruin that has perhaps become a Splinter Good argument for why Paalm is speaking to "Trell". Your theory on the Splinter is certainly possible, but it does have a bit of a thorn in its side- how would a Splinter of Ruin get access to a God Metal that's neither Lerasium, Atium, nor Harmonium? Occam's razor really does make our best candidates for "Trell" either Autonomy or Odium.
Angsos Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 It can't be Odium unless there's a chasm in the south
natc Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Why do people keep bringing up chasms as proof of Odium? Odium was long gone from Sel before the chasm there ever formed. The historical presence of seons suggests as much. By all likelihood it could just be a random earthquake. The way Aons work I could practically artificially produce a large lake or forest and the Aons will probably end up shifting. Continental drift will change the Aons over time. It's not magic levels of difficult. It's actually kind of impressive that it didn't happen sooner. Edited December 1, 2015 by natc
Stormgate he/him Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 Although, it could have been manipulation of the Dor by other countries (the Derethi religion comes to mind)
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