Shallan's random sketch... OR IS IT?!?!

[Gloom]

What I was trying to get at, is that a soulcaster fabrial of the sort that Shallans father was reputedly in possession of, was supposedly able to be activated and maintained without the aid of a Surgebinder. From what I gathered reading about such artifacts, the gemstones could be, and were replaced regularly. This is how Gemhearts are transformed into resources. IIRC, Kabsal said that they were easy to use, just tap a gemstone and produce an effect, but Soulcasters were fabrials from ancient times.

 

I would hesitate to suggest that the only thing of import regarding such fabrials was the gemstones. The gemstones are the only part of the fabrial that is ordinarily replaced. Modern artifabrians trap spren to attain certain effects. This doesn't sound like it's necessary for soulcaster fabrials. I would suggest that the fabrial design and and composition possibly crafted by a Surgebinder artifabrian, possibly a Bondsmith, placed the instructions in the fabrial itself, and bypassed spren completely. If this were the case, any dmage to such a device could render it unrepairable by anything short of a Surgebinder artifabrian. If it could be superficially repaired by ordinary methods, then it could likely be damaged by ordinary methods. This would also provide an extra incentive for the ardentia to protect the fabrials and their secrets closely.

[Guest Alaxel]

I've always wondered about Shallan with her Shardblade. We know Shallan is not a stupid girl. Reckless? Certainly. Foolish? Occasionally. Stupid? No.

So why did she decide to risk the wrath of the Alethi by stealing from the King's sister when she had a Shardblade she could sell? I'm sure if she sat down with her brothers and said, "Okay guys, here's the deal. I've got a Shardblade and our house is in dire straights. I propose that we offer to sell the Shardblade to the King of Jah Kevad. He'll pay handsomely for it and, likely, be appreciative of the opportunity to buy one. Especially if we sell it at a slight discount just to increase his good will towards our house. When he asks where we got it, we simply explain that he died and none of us knew he had it but we opted to sell it in order to settle his many debts."

Am I missing something, or is that a much better plan than stealing from Jasnah? I know they still have to worry about a broken Soulcaster and angry Ghostbloods, but couldn't they just return the Soulcaster to them and throw Leush under the bus? "Hey guys, here it is. Oh, it's broken? Leush wouldn't let anyone else touch it, so ask him about it. Yeah, him being dead is your problem." The Ghostbloods are, presumably, an illegal organization and Shallan could likely sue for Royal intervention to help them.

Thoughts pl0x.

[Mysty]

I've wondered about that too. it does seem like a much simpler solution to sell a shardblade than steal the soulcaster. Brandon must be hiding significant information about that sequence of events to make it a stupid idea to sell the shardblade. remember what information was kept hidden when Kelsier refused to think deeply about his plan while he was on-screen? I imagine we'll find out in WoR since we'll get Shallan's flashback sequence.

 

or maybe it is just a matter that the Shallan and Nan Balat didn't think the King of Jah Kevad was powerful enough to protect her family. and that was before Sezth was sent to hunt all the leaders of the countries of Roshar.

[hoser]

I share the curiosity.  I think it tells us about Shallan, also.  The back cover refers to her as having a thief's heart. Stealing a Shardblade and a Soulcaster both would both cause "achievement unlocked".  I can definitely see her wanting to get out of the house and into the world.  She says, and I believe, that she did not understand the political ramifications, which only apply if she is discovered. 

[Gloom]

Lets work off the premise that Shallan got the Shardblade from her father.

 

If someone killed Shallans father, and a Shardblade appeared, what is the likelihood that they would leave it behind?

Shallan had to get rid of the Shardblade, and conveniently, to do that all she had to do was take possession of it. Now, it may have been merely suspicious if Shallan immediately came forth with the Shardblade, but she didn't. No suspicion is better than some suspicion. It is likely that if her brothers looked for evidence to implicate Shallan, they would have found it. As it was, Shallan was above suspicion. She was daddys little girl. She was the last person they would suspect of killing their father.

 

This makes perfect sense if Shallan was unaware of the desperate financial straights that her family was in. Once she found out about the kind of trouble they were in, it was far to late to simply produce the Shardblade and say "Oh, hey, look what I found on the floor when daddy died!". If she did this, she may as well have just come clean altogether. It would have been pretty plain that Shallan was the one who killed daddy and put the future of their house at risk. So she kept the Blade a secret, but she felt guilty as all get out.

 

It was because of her guilt that she came up with a plan that put all the risk for their success on her shoulders.

 

This is all hypothetical of course

Edited October 29, 2013 by Gloom

[Guest Alaxel]

Gloom, your point about not being aware of the financial problems of their House is compelling, especially since guilt and shame are some extremely powerful emotions and drive people to make foolish decisions rather than tell the truth.

That combined with our lack of concrete information concerning what actually happened is enough to sell me on the idea.

[11thorderknight]

I'd like to address several topics brought up in this discussion so far, if I may:

 

1. Father's death - While we obviously don't know the details, the big picture is fairly clear, i think; Brightlord Davar loses his tempter, starts beating on Nan Balat, situation goes out of control, stuff hits the fan, Davar ends up dead. My guess is Shallan smacked him upside the head with a pitcher of wine, or something equally random. This would account for the blood. Or maybe she sliced his corpse in half with the Shardblade after he was dead. In the big picture, it doesn't really matter. 

 

2. Shardblade - It's implied pretty strongly that Shallan got it the night of her father's death, since she describes it to herself as "the fruit of her most heinous act" or some thing to that effect. I don't think her brothers know about the Shardblade, otherwise they wouldn't let her keep it. One of them would take it for himself, and I'm guessing that the mere fact of being a Shardbearer would correct their political problems and open up a solution to their money problems, at least in some fashion. As to why Shallan doesn't want to sell it - it would be like trying to sell the Mona Lisa. It's a priceless item, and something which is priceless doesn't really have a market for it. Sure, it might be possible to arrange a private sale to very wealthy lord or prince. But anyone with the resources to buy a Blade would also have the resources to simply take it away from them. Or take the money back once they had the Blade, which is the same thing. I don't think you can sell one at the local pawn shop.

 

3. Soulcaster - The gems are known to be interchangeable, therefore they are not the critical portion of the device. The metal housing of the gem is probably important, but there's obviously something more to it than purely physical form, otherwise the repair of Soulcaster post-slicing should have restored its function. Also, there would probably be Soulcasters all over the place if the shape was all that mattered. I don't know if a "trapped spren" is really the mechanism, or something else, but again, that's not really important at the moment. The important thing is that it's a magic device powered by replaceable gemstones that was damaged and, while physically repaired, no longer has magical properties.

 

4. Luesh - He was probably Brightlord Davar's "handler" from the Ghostbloods, assigned to watch over him and "assist" him, and make sure the Soulcaster, which was on loan, was safe. He was probably freaking out when it broke, and went along with Shallan's plan to steal Jasnah's because it was the only way he saw to keep himself out of major hot water with the organization. His poor choice of timing in regards of when to have his heart attack has been very inconvenient for Shallan's brothers, but I don't see reason, at this time, to suspect an ulterior cause of death. Because if the Ghostbloods had killed him, they'd know that the Soulcaster was broken, and wouldn't bother dropping hints that it should be returned. And if they wanted Jasnah's "Soulcaster", they certainly would not wait for Shallan to steal it for them, they'd do it themselves. Whether they believe her Soulcaster story, or want her dead for other reasons, we will find out. Again, I don't think their plans for Jasnah and their plans for the Davar's are related. 

[Gloom]

3. Soulcaster - The gems are known to be interchangeable, therefore they are not the critical portion of the device. The metal housing of the gem is probably important, but there's obviously something more to it than purely physical form, otherwise the repair of Soulcaster post-slicing should have restored its function. Also, there would probably be Soulcasters all over the place if the shape was all that mattered. I don't know if a "trapped spren" is really the mechanism, or something else, but again, that's not really important at the moment. The important thing is that it's a magic device powered by replaceable gemstones that was damaged and, while physically repaired, no longer has magical properties.

 

Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to establish in my earlier post. If the Soulcaster has a unique energy matrix that can channel Stormlight from gemstones to attain various effects, a physical repair would likely fail to restore the artifact. A Shardblade wouldn't necessarily be required to damage it beyond repair with the resources that the Davars had available.

 

4. Luesh - He was probably Brightlord Davar's "handler" from the Ghostbloods, assigned to watch over him and "assist" him, and make sure the Soulcaster, which was on loan, was safe. He was probably freaking out when it broke, and went along with Shallan's plan to steal Jasnah's because it was the only way he saw to keep himself out of major hot water with the organization. His poor choice of timing in regards of when to have his heart attack has been very inconvenient for Shallan's brothers, but I don't see reason, at this time, to suspect an ulterior cause of death. Because if the Ghostbloods had killed him, they'd know that the Soulcaster was broken, and wouldn't bother dropping hints that it should be returned. And if they wanted Jasnah's "Soulcaster", they certainly would not wait for Shallan to steal it for them, they'd do it themselves. Whether they believe her Soulcaster story, or want her dead for other reasons, we will find out. Again, I don't think their plans for Jasnah and their plans for the Davar's are related. 

 

The best theory outside of a natural death in regards to Luesh is actually a retributive strike by Amaram. This would require that the theory that Nan Helaran was the Shardbearer on the field the day Kaladin saved Amarams life. The theory has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it is plausible.

 

The rest of your post I agree with without reservation.

[The Count]

3. Soulcaster - The gems are known to be interchangeable, therefore they are not the critical portion of the device. The metal housing of the gem is probably important, but there's obviously something more to it than purely physical form, otherwise the repair of Soulcaster post-slicing should have restored its function. Also, there would probably be Soulcasters all over the place if the shape was all that mattered. I don't know if a "trapped spren" is really the mechanism, or something else, but again, that's not really important at the moment. The important thing is that it's a magic device powered by replaceable gemstones that was damaged and, while physically repaired, no longer has magical properties. 

 

Remember.. we never actually explicitly see a Soulcaster (modern or ancient) being used in the whole of TWoK.

 

The only Soulcasting we see in the book is performed by Jasnah and Shallan (who do not require a fabrial) and a random guy in a Szeth interlude (turns a wall to smoke IIRC) who could be using a soulcaster or could be natural. 

 

We do know that Jasnah's soulcaster is a fake (i.e. designed to look like a soulcaster) so how she pretends to use it may not be how they are actually operated. Ardents keep fabrial operation very secret so the likelyhood of discovery is extremely low from Jasnahs perspective; people will see what they want to see.

 

We only have word of Shallan of the different types of soulcaster (most do one thing, some do any transformation) and, given her upbringing, she may not be a very trustworthy source (although I do think she is right here).

 

Everything else, really, is supposition.

 

Best guess about modern soulcasters is that they operate like other modern fabrials we have seen (spanreeds, heaters, detection thingy) and have a single gem that can produce one transformation (i.e air into food or air into rock). In this case, if the gem breaks, the fabrial would not work.

 

Ancient soulcasters is a bigger guess but I agree with the points above, the 'device' is invested somehow with the gems acting only as batteries for the transformation (so can break without impacting the soulcaster functionality).

 

Until we see some proper fabrial soulcasting, I hesitate to speculate more than this.

[11thorderknight]

There's no such thing as "modern" soulcasters; they're all ancient artifacts. It's just that some are limited in what they can do, and only a few are capable of any transformation. As to whether Jasnah knows how they work and what they look like - she's spent her entire life studying, and one of her Order's divine attributes is "careful". Don't you think she's done her homework before attempting a giant hoax like a fake soulcaster??

 

Also, we have seen a soulcaster work in WoK; one of Taravangian's minions, who gives him the list, uses a lesser one to turn a wall into smoke.

[Chrono]

I've always wondered about Shallan with her Shardblade. We know Shallan is not a stupid girl. Reckless? Certainly. Foolish? Occasionally. Stupid? No.

So why did she decide to risk the wrath of the Alethi by stealing from the King's sister when she had a Shardblade she could sell? I'm sure if she sat down with her brothers and said, "Okay guys, here's the deal. I've got a Shardblade and our house is in dire straights. I propose that we offer to sell the Shardblade to the King of Jah Kevad. He'll pay handsomely for it and, likely, be appreciative of the opportunity to buy one. Especially if we sell it at a slight discount just to increase his good will towards our house. When he asks where we got it, we simply explain that he died and none of us knew he had it but we opted to sell it in order to settle his many debts."

 

My personal opinion about why Shallan and co. didn't sell the Shardblade is that it's far too risky. It's not like there's just a black market for Shards sitting around, and even if they just bee-lined it straight to the King of Jah Keved and offered him the Shardblade, there would be many eyebrows raised. House Davar is described as of middling importance - ancient, yes, but not very powerful or influential. The King would probably not buy their story of "We have no idea how our father got this Shardblade, but please buy it so that we can save ourselves from debt," even though it's the truth. There's just too many ways that he could think of how Old Man Davar got the blade, all of them suspicious (assassinating a Shardbearer, theft, etc.). I also can't imagine that such a deal, even if it were to go through, could remain secret for that long. It would attract a huge amount of attention to the Davar house, which is exactly the opposite of what they need (an argument could be made that with the ludicrous amount of money made from selling the Shardblade, the Davars could simply bribe people to keep them quiet). If someone discovered that they also had a Soulcaster, they would probably get fried for heresy, and all the risk of selling the Shardblade would be for nothing.

 

Is stealing from Jasnah a better idea? Probably not; it's still insanely risky and there are about a million ways it could go wrong. However, if Shallan was able to pull it off, she would be able to create those mineral deposits that made their family rich in the first place, give it to the Ghostbloods, and essentially kill two birds with one stone. If she simply sold the Blade, she would have nothing to combat the Ghostbloods with except bribes (which probably wouldn't work).

 

I'm not trying to disprove anyone's theories or ideas; this is just my own opinion on why Shallan decided to not sell the Shardblade. Now that I think about it, your theory works a whole lot better, Gloom. Ah well, this is all just an idea of mine.

 

As for the Soulcaster: it states in the book that Shallan's father's soulcaster had been sheared in two places: "across one of the chains and through the settings that held one of the stones." (p. 502) Since Shardblades (presumably) cut through the Spiritual Realm, it would make perfect sense that the Soulcaster was damaged so that the trapped spren or whatever powers it was released or damaged. Probably stating the obvious here. 

 

Also, if Shallan did kill her father with an ordinary weapon, how did the Soulcaster get cut with the Shardblade? Or did she immediately take the Shardblade after he died and start hacking at him with it? 

[Gloom]

I get the reasoning behind the Shardblade theory. It's sound, solid reasoning. I just don't think that a Shardblade would be required in order to cut the Soulcaster. I don't believe that a Shardblade is required to disrupt the power invested inside it. We don't need a Shardblade to kill an arm. A regular rusty old cleaver can do the trick well enough. You might be able to get the arm re-attached surgically, but that doesn't mean that severed connections will reattach and function as they once did. I would imagine that the settings and chains are invested. That they were created in such a way as to channel the Stormlight in the gemstone in a manner that would accomplish the instructions received. We know modern fabrials require trapped spren in the gemstones in order to function. We also know that Soulcasters function in a completely different manner than modern fabrials.

 

Up vote for the locating the description of how the Soulcaster was damaged.

[Argent]

Except a cleaver won't work if your arm is in the Cognitive Realm. The truth is, we just don't know enough about fabrials really work to figure out how Davar's one broke. If it was ever functional to begin with...

[Shardlet]

The best theory outside of a natural death in regards to Luesh is actually a retributive strike by Amaram. This would require that the theory that Nan Helaran was the Shardbearer on the field the day Kaladin saved Amarams life. The theory has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it is plausible.

 

See, this idea never has set well with me.  "Your brother came to kill me.  So now I'm going to kill your steward!"  Doesn't seem to hold water.  For Luesh to be a target, he would have had to have been known to Amaram or his agents to be a member of the Ghostbloods.  Even then, seems pretty awkward.

[Gloom]

Except a cleaver won't work if your arm is in the Cognitive Realm. The truth is, we just don't know enough about fabrials really work to figure out how Davar's one broke. If it was ever functional to begin with...

 

But a fabrial is in the physical, they are worn. My theory does require that the fabrial has a connection to the cognitive, but I'll happily propose that once the physical is severed, the cognitive is severed as well. When you repair it, you have to repair the connection in both realms for it to regain functionality. House Davar lacks the resources to get that done, or even understand that it should be done.

 

Fabrials are not sentient, or at least I don't consider them sentient. So a fabrial would have an image in the cognitive, but not a self image. It would reflect the reality of it's condition, not what it thinks its condition should be. Once the cognitive connection are severed, they have to be reconnected on that level to function again, if they are not, I believe you can make all the physical repairs you like and it still won't work. I don't believe that this is a contradiction to the information in TES. A forger would be able to repair the connection though.

 

See, this idea never has set well with me.  "Your brother came to kill me.  So now I'm going to kill your steward!"  Doesn't seem to hold water.  For Luesh to be a target, he would have had to have been known to Amaram or his agents to be a member of the Ghostbloods.  Even then, seems pretty awkward.

 

I agree with you, but felt that the theory has enough support to merit a mention. Fortunately, we shouldn't have to wait much longer before we can put this one to rest one way or the other. This should be cleared up in WoR.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Gloom

[Aether]

Has anyone considered the possibility that it was the Shardblade that the Ghostbloods wanted back, and not the Soulcaster? The exact quote from the book is: "In private with me [Nan Balat], they implied that they knew of Father's Soulcaster and suggested strongly that I was to return it to them." Since presumably only Shallan knew about the Shardblade - for the various reasons as stated in the discussions above - her Brother could have just assumed they were talking about the Soulcaster, since they didn't refer to it specifically.

 

Now, I am not sure how likely this is, but it is plausible. And as an added bonus, it opens up for all sorts of marvellously complex scenarios. What if, for example, her Father were in fact an innate Soulcaster (or maybe Luesh for that matter), and that the Soulcaster fabrial was a fake to begin with.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Aether

[junior]

Except a cleaver won't work if your arm is in the Cognitive Realm. The truth is, we just don't know enough about fabrials really work to figure out how Davar's one broke. If it was ever functional to begin with...

 

You know, that raises an interesting thought...

 

What if the Ghostbloods are bluffing about the whole thing?  What if the "broken" soulcaster never really worked, and the Ghostbloods never loaned it to begin with?  What if Luesh tipped them off to the existance of the "broken" soulcaster, and the Ghostbloods decided to claim that it was theirs' as some sort of way to gain additional influence over the family?

 

Actually, I'm skeptical about this.  But I thought I'd throw it out there because it is a possibility.

 

The better point of focus, imo, is the blade.  I'm guessing that the Ghostbloods never even knew that it existed (or they would have asked about it).  Which means that they never loaned it.  Which means that the family has been sitting on something that's worth a king's ransom...  and not doing anything with it.

 

Why?

 

With the shardblade, the family wouldn't have needed to resort to cheap transmutational "mining" tricks to keep generating wealth.  Dear old dad could have just had a suit of armor crafted for him, and ridden out to the Shattered Plains.  Any of the Brightlords there would have gladly retained his services because of the blade.  But instead, the blade remained hidden and apparently unused.

 

Why?

 

 

Edit - In response to Aether's point above, the Ghostbloods clearly knew about one thing but don't appear to have known about both.  And Luesh, the steward, who also happened to be a Ghostblood, knew about the soulcaster.  So I don't think it's too big of a stretch to assume that Shallan's brother is correct about what the Ghostbloods wanted.  Additionally, their approach seems a bit low-key for a group that's looking for a missing Shardblade as opposed to a missing Soulcaster.

Edited November 4, 2013 by junior

[marianmi]

Has anyone considered the possibility that it was the Shardblade that the Ghostbloods wanted back, and not the Soulcaster? The exact quote from the book is: "In private with me [Nan Balat], they implied that they knew of Father's Soulcaster and suggested strongly that I was to return it to them." Since presumably only Shallan knew about the Shardblade - for the various reasons as stated in the discussions above - her Brother could have just assumed they were talking about the Soulcaster, since they didn't refer to it specifically.

 

Now, I am not sure how likely this is, but it is plausible. And as an added bonus, it opens up for all sorts of marvellously complex scenarios. What if, for example, her Father were in fact an innate Soulcaster (or maybe Luesh for that matter), and that the Soulcaster fabrial was a fake to begin with.

 

Erm, if they would want teh shardblade they would kill everyone there. The blade would have to appear

[Aether]

Erm, if they would want teh shardblade they would kill everyone there. The blade would have to appear

Well, they could, but that wouldn't look suspicious at all. They might not be an important family, but every family member murdered might get them unwanted attention.

[Zizoz]

They also asked after Shallan specifically, so if they are looking for the Shardblade then they probably have an idea that she has it. Although that raises the question of why they don't just get Kabsal to kill her -- he could have done so easily. 

[Aether]

They also asked after Shallan specifically, so if they are looking for the Shardblade then they probably have an idea that she has it. Although that raises the question of why they don't just get Kabsal to kill her -- he could have done so easily. 

Well, if killing the entire Davar family would look suspicious, killing the ward of the Alethi King's sister wouldn't look strange at all. Besides, Kabsal was using her to get to Jasnah. Wouldn't make much sense to kill her before they could do that.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Aether

[junior]

There's another problem with the idea of the Ghostbloods wanting the shardblade back.  Namely, why would they have loaned it to begin with?  We suspect that a shardblade (and shardplate) was loaned to a member of the family, and that was to go after Amaram on the battlefield.  Shardblades aren't the kind of thing that you just loan willy-nilly, especially to someone who's going to sit on it and not use it.

[Isomere]

Moving back the the thread discussion about the scene Shallan drew, I first read it and thought the scene was the assassination we witness when the Half Shards were used against Szeth. Seems that it could be her fathers death and I like that theory, but there a other options too.

[Argent]

If Shallan had been there (which, I guess, is possible due to the weird timeline the interludes seem to follow), then she'd be dead. Szeth had implied orders to kill everyone in sight, and of two-and-a-half Shardbearers couldn't stop, or even evade Szeth, she'd stand on chance.

[hoser]

A few fragments drift up from my steadily worsening memory ...

Moving back the the thread discussion about the scene Shallan drew, I first read it and thought the scene was the assassination we witness when the Half Shards were used against Szeth. Seems that it could be her fathers death and I like that theory, but there a other options too.

It sounds like you might not believe it was the assassination of the king of Jah Keved any more.  I see problems with that idea also.  Shallan was chasing Jasnah around on ships for months, then being her ward while Szeth was on his killing spree.  The half-shard scene was in a massive chamber with multiple tables and bodies everywhere, whereas the sketch has a single table and a single body in a smaller room. 

As for other options, there will always be those.  Given Shallan's history of hardly ever leaving the property, the default assumption seems like the Davar family mansion.

 

If Shallan had been there (which, I guess, is possible due to the weird timeline the interludes seem to follow), then she'd be dead. Szeth had implied orders to kill everyone in sight, and of two-and-a-half Shardbearers couldn't stop, or even evade Szeth, she'd stand on chance.

I agree on the timing, but while Szeth was ordered to slaughter, I think there were meant to be witnesses.  I don't think he went out of his way to kill everyone there.