Shallan's random sketch... OR IS IT?!?!

[Gloom]

You make some good points. Her having a problem with the memory, if it is one. The fact that she doesn't react to it in the same way she reacts at other times when she considers her fathers death for another.

 

I would argue that we have no idea how durable a soulcaster is. For all we know, her father could have been killed with a knife to the heart which severed the Soulcaster. We don't have any empirical evidence which points to a Shardblade being used to in the actual death. I would even say that it is unlikely that Shallans father was killed with a Shardblade. For him to be killed by Shallan with a Shardblade, she would have to have the Blade prior to his death. This would then require an explanation of how she attained the blade, a blade she considers her secret shame. But was it her shame because she used it to kill her father, or because she claimed it after she killed her father?

[hoser]

I agree that it is not the assassination of the vedan king. The scale of the room, the number of tables and the scale of the slaughter seem totally different. I am puzzled at the reasoning for not believing it is not Shallan's father.

I don't think that this sketch is a memory of her Father's death, nor do I think it is of Szeths assassination of the King of Jah Keved.

First the scene she draws is different to the memory we have in chapter 7;

There is no Nan Balat in the drawing, just a single man in a pool of blood. This also for me rules out the assassination of the King as Szeth describes it as a slaughter. There should be other corpses a signs of battle if this drawing depicts that event.

The room described also sounds a bit too opulent to be Shallan's family home. I've never got the impression that the family is particularly well off although this is mostly speculation. In addition the "camera" angle of the drawing seems wrong to me. If this a memory of the moments immediately following her murder of her father then she would be standing over the corpse looking down at it and not viewing the scene from the other side of the room, which is where she would have to be in order to get the table and wall decorations into the picture.

The other issue with it being a memory of the murder is in her reaction. Any other time she comes close to thinking about the murder she immediately rejects it telling herself not to think of it "Don't think of the past" and similar responses. In this scene she says that there is something wrong with her, with her drawings. This to me implies that what she drew was something she had never seen before.

I also still think that Shallan's father was killed with a shardblade, which obviously would not leave behind a pool of blood. The reason I think this is because the soulcaster is described as being sheared across one of the gem settings (sorry I don't seem to be able to find the relevant quotes) which sounds to me like it was cut with a shardblade. I've seen the suggestion that the soulcaster was cut be accident after the death but this does not fit with some of the other facts regarding where the soulcaster was found. The soulcaster was described by Shallan (on two separate occasion I think) as being found on him after he was dead and also that it was found in his jacket pocket. It sounds to me like it would be very difficult to cut the soulcaster with a shardblade without killing the person wearing the jacket.

The memories you quote may not have happened at the same time. The word "memories" instead of "a memory" suggests that they didn't. The other clue that they weren't simultaneous is that Nan Balat doesn't show any signs of knowing that she has a shardblade (that I recall).

The contents of the picture could have been something that she was suppressing more deeply or she just didn't remember at that time.

The dining room could have been at the Davar mansion because she had been basically sequestered there until she went to find Jasnah.

The father was trying to become highprince, so he better not have a threadbare dining room.

If you kill someone with a Shardblade, then cut them again with it, you could get the pool of blood (if you are not careful, you will cut the person in half).

I know nothing, obviously, but the scene seems consistent to me with her having seen a battered Nan Balat and later murdered her father. Or infinite other possibilities that I lack the creativity to come up with.

The sheared Soulcaster is a problem for which I can only construct implausible scenarios.

Edited November 27, 2013 by hoser

[Cortez]

I've always assumed that Nan Balat was unconscious during the time she used/picked up the shardblade.

 

Yes the shardblade could be used after death to cut the fathers body (and thus the soulcaster), but it seems unlikely that Shallan or anyone else would have done so. It seems equally unlikely that it was done by accident especially if the shardblade belonged to Shallan's father and so would appear next to him as he died. I suppose he could have already summoned it but not had time to use it. However as the corpse in the picture is described as lying face down it again seems unlikely that the blade could have cut the soulcaster in his pocket as he fell. Not impossible though.

 

We know that Shallan normally has to blink and deliberately take a "memory" of a scene which she then translates to a charcoal picture. We also know that in times of stress/trauma (e.g. the attack in the alleyway) that she remembers these scenes vividly without having to do the blink technique thingy. I could see Shallan doing something similar as she killed her father and immediately after she killed him, but I don't see why she would deliberately memorise the scene later especially as she seems to want to forget about it and repress the event as much as possible.

 

I could be wrong about the furnishings of House Davar. However nothing I've read so far leads me too the conclusion that you would describe them as lavish. House Davar is a minor house and Shallan describes the estates as being isolated and backcountry. Now I'm not saying that house Davar was especially poor or that the house was threadbare, just that the impression I get isn't one of lavishness. For example Shallan states that the library only had 87 books. Of course I could be wrong and that her father spent a lot of the quarry money on doing up the place and not on books etc.

 

 

For him to be killed by Shallan with a Shardblade, she would have to have the Blade prior to his death. This would then require an explanation of how she attained the blade, a blade she considers her secret shame. But was it her shame because she used it to kill her father, or because she claimed it after she killed her father?

 

Shallan having a shardblade prior to her Fathers death is of course the big, gaping hole in the theory that a shardblade killed him. Where on earth could she have picked up one and why would she, as a woman on Roshar, pick it up? The initial logical assumption, especially as she calls it the fruits of her sin (or something like that), is that she got it from her Father. The problem with that theory is where did he get it from? It seems unlikely to be a family heirloom (shardbearers write their own ticket most places on Roshar so house Davar would probably be quite influential and not the other way round). It also doesn't really make sense for the Ghostbloods to give him one as well as the soulcaster, especially as if her Father had it, it was kept hidden and not used. This to me would make no sense, unless they have so many shards and plate that they can afford to give one as a bribe to hold Shallan's father to them.

 

There are other possible origins for Shallans shardblade though, although these are pure conjecture and backed up be no evidence whatsoever. The first that comes to mind is that the blade was in the hands of an assassin sent to kill Lord Davar and that Shallan somehow ended up with it. The other possibility that I can think of is that the theory that Knights Radiants can create their own Blade and Plate is correct and that Shallan was able to do this somehow. However, while I like that theory because it would be so cool, it makes no sense for Shallan to be able to do so as she has only just started down that road since she reached Karbranth.

 

In short I just don't think we have enough information to say where Shallan's shardblade came from, except that she feels she got it as a result of her Fathers death at her hands. Anything else is pure speculation at the moment.

 

Sorry for the essay. Hmmm... I wonder if I should add a bibliography.......

[Aether]

Sorry for the essay. Hmmm... I wonder if I should add a bibliography.......

Please do! It is always best to be thorough.

[Gloom]

The point being that either Shallan didn't have the Shardblade before she killed her father, or she doesn't consider killing her father her sin.

 

 

She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct:

Ch. 45 TWoKs

 

So for those of you who believe that Shallan was in possession of her Shardblade prior to her fathers death, please enlighten me on exactly what act she committed to obtain the Shardblade, and what she would consider to be more horrific than killing her own father. Please take into consideration that their is plenty of evidence that suggests that Shallan was deeply disturbed over her fathers death.

[Cortez]

Only Brandon Sanderson can enlighten you on this subject I'm afraid, and I suspect if you asked him you'll get told to RAFO. So you'll have to wait until March like everyone else  .

 

However it is entirely possible that Shallan has more than one skeleton in the closet.

 

In the Shallan flashback reading from Words of Radience it is clear that Shallan already considers herself to be a murderer and the line about horrible eyes possibly suggests the use of a shardblade in that instance. So there's at least one possible other sin that she could consider worse than the one she confessed to the spren. Of course this does not answer the question as to where she got the Blade either and in fact raises more questions.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Cortez

[Moogle]

So for those of you who believe that Shallan was in possession of her Shardblade prior to her fathers death, please enlighten me on exactly what act she committed to obtain the Shardblade, and what she would consider to be more horrific than killing her own father. Please take into consideration that their is plenty of evidence that suggests that Shallan was deeply disturbed over her fathers death.

 

Disclaimer: The entire Shallan situation confuses me, so don't see this as me taking sides.

 

How do you explain Shallan's father's Soulcaster being cut? It is described as a heavy metal contraption, which heavily implies a Shardblade was used to cut it. Shallan's flashback showed there being (trophy?) swords on the wall. It's possible she killed her father with one of those, explaining the blood... but how the heck was the Soulcaster damaged by a young lighteyes woman?

 

As well, Shallan describes her Shardblade as being sharp enough to cut stone. This implies use. When would she have used her Shardblade after she killed her father?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom]

Every Shardblade is sharp enough to cut stone. This could simply indicate observation. We have no solid basis upon which to judge the durability of a soulcaster fabrial. The fabrial Jasnah wears isn't a heavy steel gauntlet, it's a large but delicate piece of jewelry. I'm pretty sure that if I stab you in the heart and while your wearing a light shirt of silver chain, I'd still kill you. If the fabrial is no more durable than silver, it could be cut with a steel knife or dagger when it was being thrust into her fathers chest or back.

[hoser]

Purely hypothesizing ...

Disclaimer: The entire Shallan situation confuses me, so don't see this as me taking sides.

 

How do you explain Shallan's father's Soulcaster being cut? It is described as a heavy metal contraption, which heavily implies a Shardblade was used to cut it. Shallan's flashback showed there being (trophy?) swords on the wall. It's possible she killed her father with one of those, explaining the blood... but how the heck was the Soulcaster damaged by a young lighteyes woman?

 

As well, Shallan describes her Shardblade as being sharp enough to cut stone. This implies use. When would she have used her Shardblade after she killed her father?

Assumptions:

• Shallan killed her father: because she thinks she did and the cryptic agrees.
• Nan Balat knows that she killed her father, but doesn't know she has a shardblade: because they are not trying to figure out who killed their father and aren't using the shardblade to better their lot, instead betting on the insanely long shot that Shallan can get away with stealing a working Soulcaster. 
• Shallan didn't have the Shardblade before she killed her father: she was sequestered, how would she get it; she calls it "the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrible act"  

Deductions:

• Her father was not killed with the shardblade: If the eyes had been burned out, Nan Balat would have wondered where the shardblade went.  Why would the father have given Shallan the shardblade?

Possibilities:

1. As Gloom (better than Doom or Ookla) suggested: Soulcaster cut by the mundane weapon she used to kill her father. 
2. Cut before Davar senior died.
3. Cut by shardblade accidentally when Shallan cut her father after his death (maybe in an effort to hide something about the real means of death?)
4. Cut by someone else posthumously with a mundane weapon. 

Fact: It is described as sheared in two places, one across a gem setting.

 

Question: What could shear through a gem setting (and presumably a gem also) without being deflected?  Maybe this is a hint that it was a shardblade cut.  

Edited November 27, 2013 by hoser

[Cortez]

Shallan would definitely be aware of what a shardblade is and what it can do, so I don't think you can read anything into the use of language there.

 

The soulcaster however doesn't sound like a particularly delicate piece of jewellery

 

She hefted the heavy construction of metal and chains (p.502)

 

She also describes the fabrial's damage as;

 

sheared in two places; across one of chains and through the setting that held one of the stones.

 

This does not sound like the kind of damage that could be done by stabbing someone with an ordinary knife or sword, especially not when wielded by a young girl. I think a better analogy than a silver chain shirt would be if you stabbed someone in the chest and hit an old fashioned pocket watch. Do you think you would cut clean through it?

 

The other issue of course is in the use of language. In this case Shallan uses the word sheared. Shear, sheared and shearing are used throughout this book to describe cutting with a shardblade.

 

Bits of armour and weapons sprayed into the air where arrows had once flown, sheared free by his Blade. (p.379)

 

He sheared through souls themselves (p.379)

 

striking with his Shardblade, shearing through the necks of two men who had thrown spears at him. (p.28)

 

The weapon easily sheared through a large couch, (p.31)

 

Sheared isn't always used to describe cutting with a shardblade but I don't recall the word being used to describe cutting with any other kind of implement in Way of Kings.

 

@hoser

 

Does Nan Balat know that Shallan killed their father? I was under the impression that he didn't know, in fact my whole theory hinges on him not knowing and thus not knowing that Shallan has a shardblade.

 

Her most horrible act does not have to be murdering her father. As I mentioned a couple of posts ago there may be another skeleton in her closet. I would suggest you read the excerpt from one of Shallans flashbacks in Words of Radiance (if you haven't already).

 

Also if the soulcaster was already broken then surely Luesh would have known? I think it has to have been broken at the same time as his death.

 

p.s do we actually know what Shallan's fathers name is? I don't recall reading it.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Cortez

[The Count]

I confess that the damage to the soulcaster confuses me as well.

Firstly. I do not believe that Shallan meant to kill her father. everything we have learned about her character points to someone shy and timid. She did not make any attempt to help when confronted by the thugs and on numerous occasions on her arrival in Kharbranth, she gets upset at even minor confrontations.

The best scenario I can come up with is that she tried to stop her father beating Nan Belat to death and either shoved him away or hit him with a vase or paperweight (or something) and his death was largely an accident.

Nan Belat was unconscious, Shardblade drops, Shallan picks it up in wonder and accidentally binds herself to it.

I think it is Shallan's guilt and relative ignorance that makes her see herself as a murderer. I think the cryptics can only see her conviction and honesty (to her own feelings) and so regard it as a truth.

For the soulcaster... I do not know... maybe it's breaking was the reason that Lord Davar was beating on Belat? Belat found it, broke it by accident and Davar caught him and went into a rage when he realinsed what had happened...

I am reaching now as there is not evidence for any of this in any way. However, it would be a delicious irony if Shallan broke the soulcaster and Belat was covering for her by admitting fault not knowing that Davar would almost beat him to death. But I think Shallan would have given some hint of this in her POV so I do not think this is true.

In my opinion, an accidental death is the only scenario I see fitting with Shallan's character as we see it at the start of TWoK.

 

EDIT: Just noticed I made these same arguments earlier in this thread... does this count as a double post lol... sorry if it seems like I am banging on like a duracel bunny.

Edited November 28, 2013 by MadRand

[Natans]

The shardblade must be a secret for everyone, because don't make sense that she with a blade that is worthly, basically anything, would propose try steal a soulcast to pay their debts, when they could sell the blade saying that the blade was a secret family heirlom, or even use the blade to gain status, after all anyone that have a blade are basically in the upper class of society.

 

What can complicate the things is if the blade also come from the ghostbloods,but if is the blade come from them i don't think that Shallan know this, she looks know almost nothing about them,even the fact that her father, (and maybe her big bother) are members of that organization.

 

And another thing.  I don't think that Shallan is so indefese like she looks, to me she must have some martial training. (Well she is the best candidate for a female radiant warrior, and would be nice see her with a blade and plate kicking some chull in the next books, like a secret shardplate user)

Edited November 28, 2013 by Ookla the Puro

[hoser]

@hoser

Does Nan Balat know that Shallan killed their father? I was under the impression that he didn't know, in fact my whole theory hinges on him not knowing and thus not knowing that Shallan has a shardblade.

Her most horrible act does not have to be murdering her father. As I mentioned a couple of posts ago there may be another skeleton in her closet. I would suggest you read the excerpt from one of Shallans flashbacks in Words of Radiance (if you haven't already).

Also if the soulcaster was already broken then surely Luesh would have known? I think it has to have been broken at the same time as his death.

I believe that Shallan is known to have killed her father based upon deduction. If they didn't know who killed him,their primary concern would be who did it. Their concern is with the medium term financial viability and not "who done it", so I conclude that the killer is known.

I read the selection you mentioned, but I don't see how she gets a shardblade in that situation.

I also think the 'caster was broken when her father died, but I was just enumerating possibilities to choose the preferred option, because the only absolute is my ignorance.

[Cortez]

I believe that Shallan is known to have killed her father based upon deduction. If they didn't know who killed him,their primary concern would be who did it. Their concern is with the medium term financial viability and not "who done it", so I conclude that the killer is known.

 

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that.

 

Where Shallan got her shardblade from is a big mystery. If the shardblade was her Fathers, why would Shallan, as a Vorin woman on Roshar, pick it up? That act goes against everything we know of the gender issues within Vorin society. She must have known what the Blade was and that picking it up would bind it to her. The only motive that I can think of for her picking up the Blade and concealing that she has it, is to cover up the fact that she was the murderer, given that any assassin would definitely take the Blade. This of course brings us back to Nan Balat not knowing about Shallan's act.

 

While the Words of Radiance reading doesn't answer the question of where Shallan acquired her Shardblade, it does offer another possibility for Shallans most grievous sin for which the Blade could be the fruit of. In the flashback Shallan clearly considers herself to be at fault and to be a murderer and this part;

"Father stepped over the body of a woman in white. Little blood there. It was the other men doing most of the bleeding.

Mother lay face down so Shallan couldn't see the eyes, the horrible eyes."

suggests the use of a Shardblade. Note the presence of other dead men, could one of them have been carrying the Blade and Shallan killed him and took it and then killed her Mother by accident? Pure speculation that though.

In short this scene gives us an interesting insight into Shallan's past but only really raises more questions.

 

 

because the only absolute is my ignorance.

 

At the moment we're all ignorant on this subject  . We simply don't have enough facts to put together what really happened.

What we do know is:

• Shallan has a Shardblade
• Shallan considers herself to have murdered her Father
• Her Father had a broken soulcaster found post mortem in his jacket pocket
• The soulcaster was probably damaged with a shardblade

These things may all be related, they may not. Can't wait to find out.

[Daishi5]

I used to think that the soulcaster was damaged by the shardblade, but something occurred to me.  Shallan's shardblade seems to be a complete secret.  If the soulcaster was cut by a shardblade, I would expect the damage to be "unique"

 

So, I have two things I think are true.  A.  No one knows about Shallan's blade.  B.  Shallan cut the soulcaster with her blade, which "broke" it. 

 

Now that I think about what a soulcaster cut by a shardblade would look like, I don't believe that both A and B can be true.  I suspect that B is more likely to be false, but I don't have any idea how the soulcaster did get damaged if B is false.  

[hoser]

Where Shallan got her shardblade from is a big mystery. If the shardblade was her Fathers, why would Shallan, as a Vorin woman on Roshar, pick it up? That act goes against everything we know of the gender issues within Vorin society. She must have known what the Blade was and that picking it up would bind it to her. The only motive that I can think of for her picking up the Blade and concealing that she has it, is to cover up the fact that she was the murderer, given that any assassin would definitely take the Blade. This of course brings us back to Nan Balat not knowing about Shallan's act.

 

While the Words of Radiance reading doesn't answer the question of where Shallan acquired her Shardblade, it does offer another possibility for Shallans most grievous sin for which the Blade could be the fruit of. In the flashback Shallan clearly considers herself to be at fault and to be a murderer and this part;

"Father stepped over the body of a woman in white. Little blood there. It was the other men doing most of the bleeding.

Mother lay face down so Shallan couldn't see the eyes, the horrible eyes."

suggests the use of a Shardblade. Note the presence of other dead men, could one of them have been carrying the Blade and Shallan killed him and took it and then killed her Mother by accident? Pure speculation that though.

In short this scene gives us an interesting insight into Shallan's past but only really raises more questions.

 

 

 

At the moment we're all ignorant on this subject  . We simply don't have enough facts to put together what really happened.

What we do know is:

• Shallan has a Shardblade
• Shallan considers herself to have murdered her Father
• Her Father had a broken soulcaster found post mortem in his jacket pocket
• The soulcaster was probably damaged with a shardblade

These things may all be related, they may not. Can't wait to find out.

So Shallan picked up the shardblade to make it seem like an assassin killed her father?  And they are not worried about the assassin coming back because they are no longer a political threat?  Seems like a reasonable explanation for why they are not worried about figuring out "who done it" to me.  So that gives two viable scenarios at this point.  One scenario has Nan Balat believing that Shallan killed her father and the other has it done by a mysterious assassin who disappeared.  

 

I used to think that the soulcaster was damaged by the shardblade, but something occurred to me.  Shallan's shardblade seems to be a complete secret.  If the soulcaster was cut by a shardblade, I would expect the damage to be "unique"

 

So, I have two things I think are true.  A.  No one knows about Shallan's blade.  B.  Shallan cut the soulcaster with her blade, which "broke" it. 

 

Now that I think about what a soulcaster cut by a shardblade would look like, I don't believe that both A and B can be true.  I suspect that B is more likely to be false, but I don't have any idea how the soulcaster did get damaged if B is false.  

The mysterious assassin scenario could become a mysterious assassin with a shardblade scenario if the Davars think that the soulcaster damage had to have been done by a shardblade. 

 

In either scenario I still think that Shallan got the shardblade when her father died.  The earlier incident had a younger Shallan and another party apparently in control.  The party in control would have every reason to take a shardblade himself and none to let Shallan take it and keep it.  The earlier incident seems like it could even be a suppressed memory for Shallan at the end of tWoK. 

[Meg]

So for those of you who believe that Shallan was in possession of her Shardblade prior to her fathers death, please enlighten me on exactly what act she committed to obtain the Shardblade, and what she would consider to be more horrific than killing her own father. Please take into consideration that their is plenty of evidence that suggests that Shallan was disturbed over her fathers death.

I have not yet decided whether she has had the Shardblade before her father died but regarding what was told about the situation in Shallan's family, how her father acted and that there was a intense affinity between the siblings and they were very close to each other, I could imagine that she felt more guilty when her brother was injured or if she wouldn't have been able to help her siblings when they were in danger. And I think this happened: When Nan Balat was attacked (probably by their father) she defended him. If this was the event when her father died -- I don't know.

She seems disturbed about her father's death -- probably more about the circumstances than the death itself -- but I can't see her being sad.

[Cortez]

She seems disturbed about her father's death -- probably more about the circumstances than the death itself -- but I can't see her being sad.

 

I think you're right. She certainly doesn't seem to be brimming over with remorse when she confesses to the cryptic spren things.

 

I've always assumed that the memory of Nan Balat bruised and Sallan holding a shardblade happened at the same time as her Fathers death. I really hadn't considered the possibility that these might be separate events.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Cortez