teknopathetic he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) Odium doesn't mean hate. Odium means "the repugnance and hatred of other people due to their opinions, actions, or beliefs". To me, the intent Odium is actually fairly compatible with Honour. A positive reading of Odium could be that Odium hates the people who do not act appropriately in the Cosmere. Now, 'appropriately' could have a huge spread of interpretations: people who sin, people who act against their intent, people who don't do exactly as Odium wishes, etc etc. In Stormlight, we have a certain probably-herald doing just this. He is completely wrapped up in judging and hating the people who do not follow the letter of the law. Odium and Honour are actually quite compatible. They are nothing like Ruin and Preservation mixing it up. What I find interesting is that in one of Dalinar's vision's Honour is absolutely SHOCKED that Odium would come after him. Honour knew that Odium had killed 2+ shards already. Why would Honour be surprised to find Odium at his doorstep? Possible reasons Honour was surprised by Odium. 1) Honour knew Odium per-shattering, and felt their bond was secure. 2) Honour's intent dd not clash with Odium, so he thought he was secure. 3) Honour felt he has not acted in fashion that would upset Odium, so he though he was secure. -I think that hypocrisy might be what makes Odium target shards. What if Odium hates shards that are hypercritical? Odium's strength would lie in using holder's inconsistencies against them! And we know that what causes a shard great pain is for it to act against their own intent. Perhaps this leaves an opening that Odium can exploit quite easily? It would explain a lot of what we see in the Cosmere. Odium didn't destroy Sel; he just destroyed the shards. Odium doesn't have a blind and target-less hatred at all. We have a WoB that none of the shards are "evil". And that Hoid has an opinion of Odium, but that some people might not agree with that opinion. I think my theory would open up that "non-evil" understanding of Odium. Edited August 26, 2015 by teknopathetic 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Hatred even in its most general sense is compatible with every emotion or intent you can possibly conceive, there's no point bringing that up. Doesn't change the fact that he's presently trying to become the most powerful thing ever by killing everyone else. He was even already a jerk as a human, it seems. I'm pretty sure he is described explicitly as blind divine hatred without other intents to guide him, actually. And he prefers it that way, leaving the other shards in pieces instead of taking them himself and distorting his intent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Ascendant he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Perhaps Odium represents the evil in the cosemere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Ascendant he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Wait. What am I saying???? I meant he represents everyone's general dislike of everyone which is why Dalinar is told to unite everyone. But not as Allies but as one massive force as Odium comes. You could say he is like Discord from MLP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Hatred even in its most general sense is compatible with every emotion or intent you can possibly conceive, there's no point bringing that up. Well, that's hardly fair. WoB says that Ruin and Odium would be very compatible. And that Cultivation would be the most compatible with Ruin. Every shard CAN be combined, but some combinations are easier to balance than others. The fact that hatred is compatible with EVERYTHING makes me think that we have oversimplified that shard's intent. Odium is not hatred. Odium is 'hatred because of what other people have done or said". There needs to be an impetus there. WoB says that Odium is NOT pure evil. I think we need to take that into account if we want to figure something new out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STINK he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Maybe Odium is just over-sensitive when it comes to getting angry 'Odium SMASH' and all that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 I'm not sure Brandon would be a fan of the simple "evil because evil" explanation. And again, there is a WoB saying Odium isn't the platonic form of evil or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Just want to point out... Odium is just a name. I've heard people say that the Progression Surge should let Renarin see the future because "Progress" means "forward". The Progression Surge is what it is, defined by its attributes, and "Progression" is a word used to label it. It doesn't work the other way; you cannot take every definition of the word Progression and decide, well this means that the Surge can do that thing. Odium will prove to be defined by what Odium actually is. "Odium" is the name given to it. The fact that a definition for "odium" might indicate something slightly different doesn't mean that it defines Odium itself. I'm inclined to pay more attention to things like The Letter, where someone starts to describe Odium from a first-hand basis. In that, he makes it more clear what the Intent is, and it seems to be undiluted hatred. As for him not being "pure evil"... I'm going to refer back to Ruin. The idea of Ruin is, itself, not evil. It's an often necessary part of existence. However, this does not stop the Shard Ruin from being a bad things. Because it's not necessary Ruin, or Ruin for a purpose, or Ruin as part of a greater whole. Like many things, taken to an extreme it is a terrible, terrible thing. Much like Preservation itself, in fact. The urge to keep everything in stasis, to never let anything grow or change, is stifling. Water is good. Water is not inherently evil. A cool drink of water can provide many health benefits, and a total lack of water will kill you. The rampaging flood about to destroy a village is that same water. It isn't evil. It is just too much, and incredibly dangerous, and should absolutely be stopped. Is it perhaps wrong for people to take Odium personally? Should people hate it less? Perhaps. But I'm not gonna tell the people living in the village, "Look, let's all take a break from building these levees to acknowledge that it isn't really the water's fault." 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 We do have a WoB on this: MillenniumSome dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?Brandon SandersonYes (source) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Arum Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 I'm inclined to pay more attention to things like The Letter, where someone starts to describe Odium from a first-hand basis. In that, he makes it more clear what the Intent is, and it seems to be undiluted hatred. While The Letter is in fact a key primary document providing insight on who Odium is and was, we need to be careful when considering its implications. A letter like this is inherently biased towards the writers viewpoints, and whomever the writer is obviously has a negative view towards Rayse in the first place. This original dislike could easily carry over towards Odium today and show him in an even worse light relative to others' viewpoints. There could easily be other entities in the Cosmere who do not agree with the writer's pre-shattering assessment of Rayse and who Rayse is as Odium. If I were a historian like Jasnah, I would want other sources before jumping to any conclusions. Granted, with the WoB Weiry posts, we know that hatred is clearly involved...but it says nothing about Rayse. Just Odium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 While valid, I wasn't saying we should take the Letter as gospel. I'm just saying, if we're looking for a definition of Odium's Intent, it's almost axiomatically a better source than googling the definition of the word "Odium". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Odium doesn't mean hate. Odium means "the repugnance and hatred of other people due to their opinions, actions, or beliefs". To me, the intent Odium is actually fairly compatible with Honour. A positive reading of Odium could be that Odium hates the people who do not act appropriately in the Cosmere. Now, 'appropriately' could have a huge spread of interpretations: people who sin, people who act against their intent, people who don't do exactly as Odium wishes, etc etc. In Stormlight, we have a certain probably-herald doing just this. He is completely wrapped up in judging and hating the people who do not follow the letter of the law. Odium and Honour are actually quite compatible. They are nothing like Ruin and Preservation mixing it up. What I find interesting is that in one of Dalinar's vision's Honour is absolutely SHOCKED that Odium would come after him. Honour knew that Odium had killed 2+ shards already. Why would Honour be surprised to find Odium at his doorstep? Possible reasons Honour was surprised by Odium. 1) Honour knew Odium per-shattering, and felt their bond was secure. 2) Honour's intent dd not clash with Odium, so he thought he was secure. 3) Honour felt he has not acted in fashion that would upset Odium, so he though he was secure. -I think that hypocrisy might be what makes Odium target shards. What if Odium hates shards that are hypercritical? Odium's strength would lie in using holder's inconsistencies against them! And we know that what causes a shard great pain is for it to act against their own intent. Perhaps this leaves an opening that Odium can exploit quite easily? It would explain a lot of what we see in the Cosmere. Odium didn't destroy Sel; he just destroyed the shards. Odium doesn't have a blind and target-less hatred at all. We have a WoB that none of the shards are "evil". And that Hoid has an opinion of Odium, but that some people might not agree with that opinion. I think my theory would open up that "non-evil" understanding of Odium. And thesaurus on Odium gets you... "dishonour, hatred." Basically it's a synonym of both hatred and shame. (As above, shame being those things that inspire hatred from others. This word specifically deals with external hatred towards the subject, but you could of course flip it around) Both Hoid and Frost, who are very cosmere-aware, and who personally knew Rayse, agree in the letter that he is acting out of Adonalsium's divine hatred. (ie. according to Odium's intent) We also have WoB that Odium is splintering other shards because he wants to be the only shardholder. Odium's hate won't be pure evil. But it will be "not evil" in the same way that Ruin was "not evil". There will be complicated motivations based on an inflexible personality that borders on a magical force of nature. We can only hope that either Odium is splintered, or that it becomes held by another shardbearer, to balance it out. At least in Rayse's case, we don't have the extra complication of having sympathy for him- both Hoid and Frost agree he matched Odium's intent very closely. We shouldn't assume that Odium is out to destroy everything. As the Parshendi show, he has use for servants, at least in the short term. edit: In fact, I wouldn't doubt that until recently, he counted at least one highprince as a useful tool... But I doubt any reasonable person is going to like his motivations, and he would have no concern at our moral objections- that's the "hated by others" part of his intent- he will not only not mind others' disapproval, he is probably compelled to actively seek it. Honour's intent pretty clearly clashes with Odium's, although not as neatly as Preservation and Ruin did- we've seen that honour is all about tying people together through positive emotions, forming bonds and agreements. Hatred would have a strong tendancy to want to pull people apart in order to make them hate each other. The Thrill is very likely Odium's influence being felt through his spren-like servants on Roshar. But Odium would want to do some things that likely wouldn't strictly be against Honour's intent, and vice-versa. I imagine if someone could hold both shards, their actions wouldn't be as constrained as Harmony's are. Edited August 27, 2015 by Ari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) We can only hope that either Odium is splintered, or that it becomes held by another shardbearer, to balance it out.I thought I had posted this theory already but I can't find it...We know Nightblood was made by Mr. Sanderson for Stormlight Archive and that Warbreaker exists to introduce him, so Nightblood has a huge part to play. We know he eats Investiture and have been warned against underestimating his hunger. Finally, we know he has difficulty with his Command to "Destroy Evil" because he is a sword and cannot understand what evil is. For what it's worth, we also know he was modeled after sprenblades. Here is what I think. Whether by the design of someone who helped make him or not, it has always been Mr. Sanderson's plan that Nightblood would end up slaying, and replacing, Odium. I have a few ideas how this might come to pass, but regardless of how, I'm fairly certain it will. Intents corrupt... But Nightblood is still just a sword. God's own divine hatred will whisper in Nightblood's mind, hate. Hate all. Hate everything and everyone. And Nightblood will reply, right, yes, of course. Getting right on that. Er... Hate. What's that again? And we get an odd, imperfect, but safer-than-Rayse Odium. Edited August 27, 2015 by Oudeis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 But wouldn't the expanded mind of a shard help him understand his intent? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Breath expanded his mind from "sword" to sentient, but didn't let him grasp evil. Vasher's comment was not that he wasn't smart enough to have evil explained to him, it's that the concept of evil is alien to his nature. There's no reason to assume a second expansion would change that. If I don't have a tail, no amount of tapped pewter will let me lift a barbell with my tail. Beyond which, this wasn't really a realmatic theory. What we know for sure about Shards, the Spiritual Realm, and all that could fit in a thimble. Everyone has a strong opinion and no one at this point (unless there's a WoB I know not of) can say my idea is or isn't plausible. Just if that person believes it or not. My argument was from a narrative perspective. These elements all exist. They would not have been set up without a purpose. It's a narrative mechanic we call Chekov's Gun. I'm saying this is how I think the elements will all coalesce. Maybe when Shadows of Self comes out in a month and a half we'll learn something about Shards proving my entire idea is flawed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 There is a WoB out there that says only a shard or splinter could fully understand realmatics, wich implies having a mind expanded by large amounts of investiture doens't only heightens your perception and intellect, but allows you to grasp concepts that would be otherwise uncomprehensible and alien. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Authweight Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) I think the way we should see it is that the shards being separate makes each one incomplete and strange, even at times contradictory. Each shard represents a key part of Adonalsium's divine Intent, but separated from the others loses the context that allows it to function correctly. This is why Odium's hatred is not "evil" per se. Hatred is important when it is focused on the correct things. The problem with Odium is that the shard lacks the context to direct that hatred in a rational way. Instead he just hates indiscriminately. Something else to consider though is that hatred may not be the same as wanting to destroy. It could be that Odium's goal isn't to destroy life, but rather to make existence a meaningless torment for those living it. That seems to me to be more hateful than simple destruction, and is what distinguishes Odium from Ruin. Edited August 29, 2015 by Authweight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caidhe he/him Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 There is a WoB out there that says only a shard or splinter could fully understand realmatics, wich implies having a mind expanded by large amounts of investiture doens't only heightens your perception and intellect, but allows you to grasp concepts that would be otherwise uncomprehensible and alien. So only a shard or splinter can fully understand realmatics? Well Brandon does. I think he gave himself away. You heard it here folks. Brandon Sanderson is a holder of a shard. I'm guessing the intent is anticipation since it is one emotion we all share while waiting for his books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil_Reptile Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 I imagine if someone could hold both shards, their actions wouldn't be as constrained as Harmony's are. Also, I think that Harmony, as an intent, probably makes Sazed restrain himself, since he has to keep the balance and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) I think the way we should see it is that the shards being separate makes each one incomplete and strange, even at times contradictory. Each shard represents a key part of Adonalsium's divine Intent, but separated from the others loses the context that allows it to function correctly. This is why Odium's hatred is not "evil" per se. Hatred is important when it is focused on the correct things. The problem with Odium is that the shard lacks the context to direct that hatred in a rational way. Instead he just hates indiscriminately. Something else to consider though is that hatred may not be the same as wanting to destroy. It could be that Odium's goal isn't to destroy life, but rather to make existence a meaningless torment for those living it. That seems to me to be more hateful than simple destruction, and is what distinguishes Odium from Ruin. I would say Odium (or any Shard) can't be evil because they are essentially just forces of nature. Odium can think but what he can't do is choose to act outside his Intent. It's been made clear that Rayse wouldn't want to do that anyway, but that's beside the point. Ati was a good person who acted in line with Ruin's Intent. The Shards are the actors but the Shards do not think or act on their own, as far as I know. The person holding the Shard is just a conduit for that particular force of nature to act on the world, but it's still the force and not the mind that is doing the acting and it just sort of does what it does. There's apparently some leeway, but not much and less over time. Odium is evil in the same way a volcano is evil. A volcano that can decide when to erupt but can't do anything other than erupt. Edited August 30, 2015 by Ansalem 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Bard he/him Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Please note: If any of you have a problem with what I say, post or send an IM and I'll try to rephrase what I'm saying. Well, it's arguable that 'good' and 'evil' are abstract concepts in any case. They are merely labels that humans have given to things that they find to be for or against their own views, which have in turn been invented by themselves and their predecessors. Therefore, nothing is truly good or evil, simply because those terms don't exist. That being said, Odium is made out to be the antithesis. We are made to sympathise with the main characters from Chapter 1, and it is fairly clear that Odium is working against the goals of the main characters. Whether or not he seeks to actually destroy the world is irrelevant in whether or not he is an antithesis. As such, for the purpose of the story, he is as close to what could be considered evil as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) I thought I had posted this theory already but I can't find it... We know Nightblood was made by Mr. Sanderson for Stormlight Archive and that Warbreaker exists to introduce him, so Nightblood has a huge part to play. We know he eats Investiture and have been warned against underestimating his hunger. Finally, we know he has difficulty with his Command to "Destroy Evil" because he is a sword and cannot understand what evil is. For what it's worth, we also know he was modeled after sprenblades. Here is what I think. Whether by the design of someone who helped make him or not, it has always been Mr. Sanderson's plan that Nightblood would end up slaying, and replacing, Odium. I have a few ideas how this might come to pass, but regardless of how, I'm fairly certain it will. Intents corrupt... But Nightblood is still just a sword. God's own divine hatred will whisper in Nightblood's mind, hate. Hate all. Hate everything and everyone. And Nightblood will reply, right, yes, of course. Getting right on that. Er... Hate. What's that again? And we get an odd, imperfect, but safer-than-Rayse Odium. That doesn't strike me as anything near at all what Brandon plans for Nightblood. It (he?) is far more effective as a commentary on the nature of evil and some lighthearted humour about the memes in fantasy surrounding sentient weapons. I'm sure Nightblood would recognise Odium as evil and want to kill him. But Nightblood thinks everything is evil. It's scary enough having it in Szeth's hands, I wouldn't want to imagine Nightblood with more power than that of a sentient shardblade. If Nightblood is actually capable of holding a shard, (seems difficult given you'd need at least one hand or gripping apendage to do so, although I imagine it fits the other criteria) I don't see how he'd be any better than Rayse. Odium has deliberately splintered the power of his enemies rather than hold it because he doesn't want to change his intent. Ultimately he can only be trapped, (and we saw that that's often not very practical in the long run with Ruin, and he's already trapped to some degree that forces him to stay in the Roshar system, but he still manages quite a bit of pain for the Stormlight Archive's protagonists) killed and his power splintered, or killed and his power merged with another Intent. As to the original topic... remember, this is the shard that literally struck a bargain with Honour that lets him torture the heralds. While he might not be out to destroy the world as literally as ruin is, I'm pretty sure that having a world under Odium's reign is a particularly unpleasant experience for everyone there. People are correct to say that in context, hatred can be channeled positively to bring about change. It can become motivating and inspire passion to make things right or just. But Odium doesn't have that context. In many ways, Odium existing as a Shard is probably somewhat similar to Nightblood's existence being targetted at "destroying evil". Odium has lost all judgement on what specifically to hate, and likely simply hates everyone, and wants to inspire their hatred back. Edited August 30, 2015 by Ari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Anselem: if a volcano can choose when to erupt and specifically chooses to erupt when it will do the most harm... That's my definition of evil. The whole point of comparing him to a volcano is that a volcano cannot think or choose, and thus cannot be evil. Evil requires choice. Of a volcano can choose, it can choose evil. Ari: you seem to be missing several of my points. If Nightblood were only ever meant to be a commentary and a joke, that doesn't sound like something Mr. Sanderson would have written an entire book just to set up. Since we know he's always been a part of the plan, one that required a lot of effort, I expect more than a satirical look at fantasy swords. Also, I don't expect Nightblood's Command to affect Odium. I don't think the sword will decide Odium is Evil. The point of bringing the Command up was to point out that something which seems simple, like "feel compelled to preserve things" might actually be rather complex. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari he/him Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Nightblood being part of events doesn't make it a candidate for holding a shard. I agree Brandon has plans for Nightblood and it has interesting things to do as an Awakened Shardblade, and has a role to play in events. But the coolest parts of Nightblood are its personality and how it wants to destroy evil but has no idea what that means. It would destroy everything that's interesting about Nightblood to make it into a shard, (because we would have much less direct interaction with it, and its personality would be likely be gone next time we jumped forward on the timeline) and I think Brandon is a good enough writer to know that, and has different plans for it. I didn't miss that first point, I just really don't agree with it. We have WoB and examples in the text that show us you can't prevent a shard's intent by having someone hold that shard who disagrees with the intent, because in the long run they just end up with the shard's personality anyway. The options to contain odium are to more effectively trap his power, to splinter his power, or to merge it with another shard's intent. If SA has a positive ending that involves them defeating Odium, nobody new is going to take up that shard all on its own. As for Nightblood's Command... well, it depends how you view the personalities of advanced Awakened Objects. I would imagine his Command would influence him until his personality was changed sufficiently by Odium, if he held that shard, as the Command is part of his mind and personality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Anselem: if a volcano can choose when to erupt and specifically chooses to erupt when it will do the most harm... That's my definition of evil. The whole point of comparing him to a volcano is that a volcano cannot think or choose, and thus cannot be evil. Evil requires choice. Of a volcano can choose, it can choose evil. Well, that was an incomplete analogy on my part. I should have said that it's like a person being able to choose when the volcano erupts. The volcano just does one thing. The person using it might be evil, but the volcano isn't. In the same way, you could say that Rayse is evil but Odium is just a force of nature. Although, given enough time anyone holding Odium would eventually act in almost an identical way to Rayse regardless, so honestly I don't think you could say Rayse is evil either. He may have started out that way but in the end he will eventually not be an individual anymore. He can't actually choose not to erupt anymore, even if he wanted to. So it's still not a very good analogy. Shards actively eliminate their holder's free will and the Shards themselves have no free will. The fact that they can think doesn't make them responsible for their actions. Ah, here's a better analogy. Say you had 2 volcanoes and they both erupt on exactly the same day every year. One of them can think and the other can't. Is one evil and the other not? From the outside they're identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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