Spheres usefulness for soulcasting

[DocHoliday]

Why don't they soul cast food, metal, buildings for EVERYONE? There is a limit to fabriels, Soul casters, and gems. Some people have to make due with the old fashion way of actually making things. LOL Old fashioned...anyway soul casting doesn't necessarily break the gem, I think it's just always a possibility.

 

I'M going to have to read WiT on Parshendi everyone is alluding to. Phantom 'o link master. Hook a brother up?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm on my second read through the book, at chapter 7 right now and I'm trying to figure out how exactly Shallan's father made money by soulcasting marble quarries.

 

I figured the amount of spheres it would cost to actually soulcast the marble quarries would equal out with any profit actually made from mining the marble. If not, then why aren't all needs for marble met by soulcasters. Why even search for natural made quarries at all? She says something in chapter 7 about the forbidden nature of what her father was doing so I'm pretty sure what he was doing was illegal, but just the simple fact that it's possible makes me wonder why doesn't Alethi kingdom just soulcast their own marble all the time?

 

There are insufficient soulcasters to handle all the needs of any industry soulcasters can be used as a substitute for - casters are, after all, both rare and irreplaceable. 

 

It also takes time for a trained soulcaster-user to use it.  They can't be everywhere, after all, and they can basically name their own price for work - and that's ignoring the strict limits on using soulcasters. 

 

And getting stormlight for them is also somewhat limiting, since there's only so much you can get in a given time period.

 

Oh, I see I've been ninjaed.  Very well:

Parshendi reading A: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hLeZQSi8YCDpO96SNbPBRp6gAAL0jqTpt4pTdN-8uuQ/edit

Parshendi reading B: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-y8Jv2apfo_0THOnPxoyHP_8FCE_0TplwXzVR4qH9UQ/edit

 

Also, Tattoo Nightmares is like the best show for watching on hotel tv ever.  But that's totes unrelated.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Rutsahl]

So why is what Shallan's father doing forbidden? I'm really having trouble understanding that part. If its possible, why is it illegal?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

So why is what Shallan's father doing forbidden? I'm really having trouble understanding that part. If its possible, why is it illegal?

Using a holy sacrament for personal material gain?  You heretic!

[Rutsahl]

Haha, ok, but can't that be said about pretty much anything soulcasters are used on? Soulcasting food and shelter for the armies is the same. They don't have to pay the farmers and builders to brining in food and other supplies that they painstakingly grew or aquired through natural means, which means those farmers now have to go without money for their hard work because the soldiers got it all for free. Like Dalinar said:

What happens, I wonder, when the scarcest, yet most desirable substance in the land suddenly becomes commonplace?

By  soulcasting whatever they need for their armies they are removing the need for farmers and builders, ruining their livelyhood.

[Shardlet]

Ah, but soldiering, conquest and contest are at the pinnacle of Alethi and Vorin ideals.  So any use of soulcasting to supply the needs of the armies is totally kosher.  And, as I pointed out above, not everyone is at the shattered plains.  I also doubt that all the needs of the armies are provided by soulcasting.  It seems like a highprince's need/use of soulcasting would be balanced against which Alethi princedom produces what and the proximity of those resources to the shattered plains.  Economics still apply. 

 

However, Dalinar is right to be concerned about the economics because as gems for soulcasting become really commonly available, then the actual cost of soulcasting will be necessarily reduced resulting in a drop in the retail price of soulcasting.  This would cause major shifts in the economy since now the cost of soulcasting drives the prices of goods down reducing the attractiveness of traditional production methods (i.e., farming, quarrying, mining, etc.).  This would result in a collapse of the quasi-serfdom that exists in Alethkar (and by extension all Vorin kingdoms) leaving thousands without the means to provide for themselves.  The ripples spread outward from there.  Massive population reduction leads to the inability to maintain troop levels in the armies which leads to the total collapse of Alethkar.

 

Edit: As to Shallan's father's use of the soulcaster amd the economics of that, recall that Shallan is from Jah Keved which is not as powerful or influential as Alethkar.  It is likely that the soulcasting economics would be substantially different in Jah Keved than they are in Alethkar.  As to the ethics of it, I think Phantom is accurate.  IIRC soulcasting appears to be the domain of the Ardentia.  Kabsal particularly intimates that the soulcasters are holy artifacts and that the innapropriate use of them is considered profane.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Shardlet

[The Count]

Hold on a moment....

 

How exacly are spheres going to be used for a non-natural soulcaster (i.e a fabrial)? 

 

Shallan can use spheres to soulcast becuase (I assume) the nahel bond alows her to focus / channel the stormlight.

 

But for a fabrial soulcaster? The way I understand it, power for the transformation comes from the spren trapped in the gemstone. The gemstone is then infused with stormlight and bobs your uncle - soulcasting for anybody. The point is that the Bonded gem needs to be infused for the power to work.

 

This would also mean that a broken gem in a fabrial would need to be replaced with another bonded gemstone to work as a soulcaster.

 

Unless the Ardentia is secretly full of natural soulcasters then the majority of soulcasting is done using specifically made fabrials, which would require bonded Gems and not spheres.

 

Have I misunderstood?

 

For the currency, I always assumed that it was notional rather than intrinsic. Just like our own.

 

People know Emeralds are used to make food so emerald spheres are awarded the highest notional value.

[Shardlet]

I think it is unlikely that every gem used in fabrial soulcasting has a trapped spren.  But that does beg the question, if there is a trapped spren, where is it trapped.  So far we have only been told about the three soulcasting gems and no mention has been made of any other gems.  I doubt that this is merely something that hasn't come up yet so it has not been mentioned.  Shallan spent a lot of time thinking about a soulcaster that once worked, but no longer does.  This begs another question, if there is no trapped spren then how the heck does the dang thing work?  Where does the ability come from?  There clearly must be some intrinsic ability in the soulcaster, otherwise the Ardentia wouldn't be so hot-to-trot to get Jasnah's away from her.  They would know her soulcasting is a part of her and could not be taken away by taking the soulcaster.

[Mar10]

I'll jump in here for my first post.  It was my understanding that the spren would be captured in the fabrial and the gems are just the "power source".(maybe not the right term).  That way the gems could be swapped out without issue if one broke.  As far as soulcasting for the army, the King controls ALL the soulcasting because only the Ardentia is allowed to (supposed to) do it and they belong to the King.  That is why it was illegal for Shallan's father to do what he did.  There really was no cost in spheres for him to create the marble depostis since he was using a souldcasting fabrial to make them.  So thats my 2 chips worth.

 

Jim

[hoser]

I'm on my second read through the book, at chapter 7 right now and I'm trying to figure out how exactly Shallan's father made money by soulcasting marble quarries.

 

I figured the amount of spheres it would cost to actually soulcast the marble quarries would equal out with any profit actually made from mining the marble. If not, then why aren't all needs for marble met by soulcasters. Why even search for natural made quarries at all? She says something in chapter 7 about the forbidden nature of what her father was doing so I'm pretty sure what he was doing was illegal, but just the simple fact that it's possible makes me wonder why doesn't Alethi kingdom just soulcast their own marble all the time?

I think it is partly a bait-and-switch scheme.  The father creates marble near the surface which, if it were a natural formation, be likely to run much deeper.  Borrow money based on the expected income from this imagined deeper vein of marble. 

 

So why is what Shallan's father doing forbidden? I'm really having trouble understanding that part. If its possible, why is it illegal?

It is forbidden for anybody but an ardent to use the holy relics.  Maybe the prohibition is not civil, but religious, so Jasnah can flout it.  The creation of fake natural marble deposits is just fraud, I think. 

 

I think it is unlikely that every gem used in fabrial soulcasting has a trapped spren.  But that does beg the question, if there is a trapped spren, where is it trapped.  So far we have only been told about the three soulcasting gems and no mention has been made of any other gems.  I doubt that this is merely something that hasn't come up yet so it has not been mentioned.  Shallan spent a lot of time thinking about a soulcaster that once worked, but no longer does.  This begs another question, if there is no trapped spren then how the heck does the dang thing work?  Where does the ability come from?  There clearly must be some intrinsic ability in the soulcaster, otherwise the Ardentia wouldn't be so hot-to-trot to get Jasnah's away from her.  They would know her soulcasting is a part of her and could not be taken away by taking the soulcaster.

The fabrials left over from the Radiant Era (Radiantblades, Shardplate and Soulcasters) are made using different principles than the modern fabrials.  I'll edit in a quote from Navani if I find it. 

 

In chapter 60 Navani explains that modern artifabrians don't understand Shardblades and plate.  She doesn't talk about Soulcasters. 

 

As for how the ancient fabrials work, one possibility comes from Brandon quotes about Shardplate.  The metal of the plate is invested.  Maybe the metal parts of the Soulcasters are invested and just draw stormlight from the gems.  This would help explain why being cut with a Shardblade was fatal to the Davar Soulcaster.

 

With regard to the Mar10 post above:

Welcome!

I generally agree, but Shallan's father apparently owned three ardents of his own. 

 

Edit: added discussion of Navani quote paragraph

Edited July 3, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet]

There is clearly a lot of info we need on soulcasters which we simply don't have.

 

@Mar10-The King controls at least much of the soulcasting at the shattered plains, but the King of Alethkar does not own the Ardentia.  Each of the highprinces have their own Ardents and on top of that, there are multiple Vorin kingdoms.  Clearly the King of Alethkar does not control all the Vorin Ardentia especially the Ardentia which is in other kingdoms.  Clearly, of the Vorin Kingdoms, Alethkar is the most influential and powerful.  But, Jah Keved is not terribly far behind in power and influence.  As to the costs of the soulcasting, to produce an economically viable marble deposit, it would likely consume a large investment of gemstones.  Consider, Jasnah changed the large boulder into one of the 10 essences but that still cracked the smokestone.  The marble deposits would have to be far more vast than Jasnah's boulder and Marble is not one of the 10 essences.  I expect that many gemstones are consumed in soulcasting such a quantity of marble. 

 

@hoser-I don't agree about the bait-and-switch.  Shallan says that the previously soulcast deposits were becoming depleted.  Perhaps, an initial small soulcasting to attract investment and then more complete soulcasting once the money is coming in.  But, to coat the lead bar in gold and then sell it...the guy you sold it to is going to find out and he's gonna know you cheated him.  Playing a game on that scale would cost someone everything (including theirs and likely their falimies lives).

[hoser]

There is clearly a lot of info we need on soulcasters which we simply don't have.

Amen!

@hoser-I don't agree about the bait-and-switch.  Shallan says that the previously soulcast deposits were becoming depleted.  Perhaps, an initial small soulcasting to attract investment and then more complete soulcasting once the money is coming in.  But, to coat the lead bar in gold and then sell it...the guy you sold it to is going to find out and he's gonna know you cheated him.  Playing a game on that scale would cost someone everything (including theirs and likely their falimies lives).

The "deposits" are on their property.  They are not selling the quarries to anyone.  Then borrow based on the expected income from the quarries.  Their properties get seized if the loans aren't paid off, but her father was planning to be Highprince and presumably could have then found ways to pay the loans off. 

They are in debt and their lives and properties are at risk unless they find something. 

[Kurkistan]

Sorry hoser, you're just wrong on this one:
 
WoK Ch 33

[shallan] could create new mineral deposits for her family to exploit. It would work; Soulcasters were very rare in Jah Keved, and her family’s marble, jade, and opal would sell at a premium. They couldn’t create actual gemstones with a Soulcaster—that was said to be impossible—but they could create other deposits of near equal value.
Once those new deposits ran out, they’d have to move to less lucrative trades. That would be all right, though. By then, they’d have paid off their debts and compensated those to whom promises had been broken. House Davar would become unimportant again, but would not collapse.

 

It's quite clear from this quote that they planned to use the output of their new deposits to pay off their existing debts and return to stability; not set up another precarious pile of lies to fall on them later.

[hoser]

Sorry hoser, you're just wrong on this one:

 

WoK Ch 33

 

It's quite clear from this quote that they planned to use the output of their new deposits to pay off their existing debts and return to stability; not set up another precarious pile of lies to fall on them later.

I beg to disagree.  I think I'm just a bad writer .  I am suggesting that their father may have been involved in a bait and switch operation with the marble deposits to help become Highprince.  Obviously, he's dead now, so it is not a thing anymore.  I don't think that they intended to increase their debts if they got Jasnah's Soulcaster, and I'm sorry if the way I wrote suggested that. 

BTW, what did I write that suggested that Shallan and Nan Balat were planning to do a bait and switch?  <Edit>Never mind, I see where the confusion arose. </Edit>

 

Edit: added never mind clause at end.

Edited July 3, 2013 by hoser

[Kurkistan]

I honestly wasn't following the conversation too closely, but my impression was that you were asserting that it would be uneconomical to use soulcasting gems (topaz, in this case) to create marble and whatnot to be sold. It's fairly obvious from this quote, theough, that it's a lack of access to/limited supply of soulcasters that makes soulcasting such things more expensive than mining natural deposits--the gemstones themselves are thus less expensive than the value you get from the minerals they create.

 

Therefore, the father would never have needed to risk a bait-and-switch scheme, since he could just get infinite free wealth using the soulcaster. Maybe he borrowed heavily against anticipated minerals that didn't exist just yet, but he was always planning on delivering. There is no need to plan to need to use his power as a HIghprince to get rid of the loans any other way than soulcasting and then mining.

 

I suppose the fact that you supported someone who essentially stated outright that simple topaz->marble wouldn't be enough for the father to make money suggested that Shallan and Nan Balat would have to follow a similar "bait-and-switch" course to the one you posited for their father.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Crysanja]

im not sure if a gem for a soulcaster is limited to xx charges, until it breaks, or if its just luck/depending on the task.

maybe even the skill of the user of the soulcaster.

 

so with recharging in storms, you can propably use one gems several times - maybe many times for simple tasks.

[hoser]

I honestly wasn't following the conversation too closely,

Apparently

but my impression was that you were asserting that it would be uneconomical to use soulcasting gems (topaz, in this case) to create marble and whatnot to be sold.

No.  Not what I meant to say, at least.  Really I was just speculating about why their father hid what he was doing and why they can't pay off the loans.  It seems to me that a surface deposit of marble created by a soulcaster will run out sooner than a deeper natural vein.  Thus it would be more valuable to make it seem natural.  Thus he can borrow more.  It is not a true bait and switch because I think the plan is to become Highprince and make it right somehow rather than leave town. 

It's fairly obvious from this quote, theough, that it's a lack of access to/limited supply of soulcasters that makes soulcasting such things more expensive than mining natural deposits--the gemstones themselves are thus less expensive than the value you get from the minerals they create.

Makes sense, but clearly the fake natural deposits were not enough at the time of his death.

Therefore, the father would never have needed to risk a bait-and-switch scheme, since he could just get infinite free wealth using the soulcaster. Maybe he borrowed heavily against anticipated minerals that didn't exist just yet, but he was always planning on delivering. There is no need to plan to need to use his power as a HIghprince to get rid of the loans any other way than soulcasting and then mining.

I have no idea how he was planning on fixing things once he got to be Highprince.  I did not mean to suggest that he would deal with it in any particular way.  I do think that there may have been a number of solutions available to him at that point.  He could do as you say.  Or maybe his income as Highprince would allow him to pay things off.  or maybe a combination would work.  I have no idea.

I suppose the fact that you essentially stated outright that simple topaz->marble wouldn't be enough for the father to make money suggested that Shallan and Nan Balat would have to follow a similar "bait-and-switch" course to the one you posited for their father.

I don't believe I stated this.

[Kurkistan]

No.  Not what I meant to say, at least.  Really I was just speculating about why their father hid what he was doing and why they can't pay off the loans.  It seems to me that a surface deposit of marble created by a soulcaster will run out sooner than a deeper natural vein.  Thus it would be more valuable to make it seem natural.  Thus he can borrow more.  It is not a true bait and switch because I think the plan is to become Highprince and make it right somehow rather than leave town.

...

Makes sense, but clearly the fake natural deposits were not enough at the time of his death.

...

I have no idea how he was planning on fixing things once he got to be Highprince.  I did not mean to suggest that he would deal with it in any particular way.  I do think that there may have been a number of solutions available to him at that point.  He could do as you say.  Or maybe his income as Highprince would allow him to pay things off.  or maybe a combination would work.  I have no idea.

 

See, I really just don't see a need for any of these shenanigans. Topaz is worth less than marble. Nobody knows the have a soulcaster. They can get free money for the foreseeable future, albeit with a ceiling on how much marble they can reasonably claim to have found. They win. No need to lie about any aspect of their operations besides whether the marble was natural.

 

Sure, there could be a some huge conspiracy of money-fakery, but it's simply unnecessary to explain what happens in the book.

 

I don't believe I stated this.

 

Sorry, I amended that to say that you had supported someone who did, without noting your disagreement with that part of their argument. I took this to mean that you supported his assertion of Topaz-Talus equity, but you did not in fact say that yourself.

 

And yes, your "They are in debt and their lives and properties are at risk unless they find something." line also suggested that Shallan and Co. would follow a similar, risky plan.

[Shardlet]

No.  Not what I meant to say, at least.  Really I was just speculating about why their father hid what he was doing and why they can't pay off the loans.  It seems to me that a surface deposit of marble created by a soulcaster will run out sooner than a deeper natural vein.  Thus it would be more valuable to make it seem natural.  Thus he can borrow more.  It is not a true bait and switch because I think the plan is to become Highprince and make it right somehow rather than leave town. 

 

I have no idea how he was planning on fixing things once he got to be Highprince.  I did not mean to suggest that he would deal with it in any particular way.  I do think that there may have been a number of solutions available to him at that point.  He could do as you say.  Or maybe his income as Highprince would allow him to pay things off.  or maybe a combination would work.  I have no idea.

 

I don't see where becoming a highprince would achieve any income in an of itself.  Granted we know little about the social/governmental order of Jah Keved, but I expect that, since Alethkar and Jah Keved are direct neighbors and they are both the two most powerful (apparently) Vorin kingdoms, that the government and social structures would be similar.  We know Jah Keved has a king and that there are apparently highprinces.  If the Jah Keved highprinces enjoy their position at the discretion of the king or some other body, then what you suggest, hoser, could be possible.  But I doubt that would be the case.  I expect that you become a highprince by leveraging the power and finances you have.  I doubt that one would gain additional lands and income by virtue of becoming a highprince.  That being the case, becoming a highprince would not necessarily increase one's financial clout.  It seems like trying to build a bridge accross a chasm where you cannot see the other side. 

The wild card of course is/was Shallan's father's Ghostblood backers.

[hoser]

See, I really just don't see a need for any of these shenanigans. Topaz is worth less than marble. Nobody knows the have a soulcaster. They can get free money for the foreseeable future, albeit with a ceiling on how much marble they can reasonably claim to have found. They win. No need to lie about any aspect of their operations besides whether the marble was natural.

 

Sure, there could be a some huge conspiracy of money-fakery, but it's simply unnecessary to explain what happens in the book.

So, you're saying there's a chance.

 

"huge conspiracy of money-fakery" seems like an exaggeration of my argument.  They are apparently in debt beyond any possibility of paying it off normally.  We know this. 

 

Actually, it may not be true at all.  Could they just auction off the Shardblade?  Why is Shallan keeping it? I suppose they would have to explain how they got it. 

Sorry, I amended that to say that you had supported someone who did, without noting your disagreement with that part of their argument. I took this to mean that you supported his assertion of Topaz-Talus equity, but you did not in fact say that yourself.

I think I said that I generally agreed with Jim Mar10 who said "There really was no cost in spheres for him to create the marble depostis since he was using a souldcasting fabrial to make them. "  I did not support Rutsahl's argument that the lost spheres' cost would equal the possible profit. 

And yes, your "They are in debt and their lives and properties are at risk unless they find something." line also suggested that Shallan and Co. would follow a similar, risky plan.

Huh?

 

I don't see where becoming a highprince would achieve any income in an of itself.  Granted we know little about the social/governmental order of Jah Keved, but I expect that, since Alethkar and Jah Keved are direct neighbors and they are both the two most powerful (apparently) Vorin kingdoms, that the government and social structures would be similar.  We know Jah Keved has a king and that there are apparently highprinces.  If the Jah Keved highprinces enjoy their position at the discretion of the king or some other body, then what you suggest, hoser, could be possible.  But I doubt that would be the case.  I expect that you become a highprince by leveraging the power and finances you have.  I doubt that one would gain additional lands and income by virtue of becoming a highprince.  That being the case, becoming a highprince would not necessarily increase one's financial clout.  It seems like trying to build a bridge accross a chasm where you cannot see the other side. 

The wild card of course is/was Shallan's father's Ghostblood backers.

So, you're saying there's a chance.

 

Really, I don't know.  Maybe the worldbuilding doesn't even extend that far and even Brandon doesn't know.  Maybe he was planning on creating the marble deposits.  Maybe spending that time wouldn't have been worthwhile with the resources available to him.  I do think that the Highprince probably derives some income from his vassals in a feudal system but can't prove it.

[Kurkistan]

@hoser

 

Wow, today is just not my day for coming off right. I apologize for that. To try to clarify a bit.

 

"huge conspiracy of money-fakery": Yes, a tad of an exageration. The main point is that no real conspiracy is needed. Shallan's father was not running so fast his only option was to jump the chasm. If his family can use the soulcaster to recover after several months of mounting debt and interest, then I imagine he could have done the same. I simply don't think any scheme beyond the continued use of the soulcaster was really necessary for him.

 

I do agree with you that Highprinces likely levy taxes in their territories, though, so he would have had a new source of income. He just wouldn't have needed it to be able to pay off the debts he'd already accrued by the time he died.

 

Sorry for misinterpreting you on Rutashi's point. You're post here failed to challenge him directly on it, so I assumed you were supportive. My mistake.

 

"Huh?": That was in reference to your EDIT in this post where you said that you understood how I could have interpreted you as saying Shallan & Co. were planning on yet another debt-scheme. It was a bit of a non sequitur in context, I admit. Sorry about that.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Kurkistan

[hoser]

@Kurkistan

Thanks for the gracious comment. Your quote was on-point, but being told I was wrong so bluntly for a position that I hadn't really taken was not fun.

[Kurkistan]

Not that gracious, given that I was rather indisputably in the wrong, but thank you. Sorry again for jumping to conclusions. with such surety.

[DocHoliday]

unrelated, but Jasnah Soul-casting the stone into smoke didn't break the focal stone Shardlet. That occurred with lightning on the alley thugs. The smoke DID drain the Storm-light from the gem and she removed it.

 

Which actually raises another interesting question. Did Jasnah not touching the thugs cause additional strain on the smokestone?

 

In relation to the topic. I believe we have plenty of evidence that Storm-light is the power source for Soul-casting. Like lithium batteries. Colloquially, people think the battery is responsible for powering devices, but it's the charge in the acid that it's actually doing it.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Why is it only emeralds that are valuable because they can make food, anyway? Surely the ability to create meat would be just as valuable.