Spheres usefulness for soulcasting

[Shardbearer]

One thing that I've been wondering is how is it that spheres are used in soulcasting. I mean, you have these little spheres with chips of gems in them, but in soulcasting you see whole gems. Yet the whole currency system is built around spheres being used to soulcast. Any ideas on how this works?

[Meg]

Yet the whole currency system is built around spheres being used to soulcast. 

 

Please don't feel cross with me, but where did you get that information? I've never understood it that way. 

[makromag]

^This comes because of the fact that gemstones ,emeralds in particular, are used to soulcast stuff into food. Plus we have this line by Dalinar

 

What happens, I wonder, when the scarcest, yet most desirable substance in the land suddenly becomes commonplace?

 

Though this quote could mean pretty much anything, I always took it as Dalinar worrying about the economy and inflation, because there is suddenly a huge amount of emeralds around. Besides that, Soulcasters are used pretty much everywhere, they "build" buildings with them, use them to clean latrines and I bet there are many other uses we don't know yet. The only other uses for spheres are fabrials, shardplate and illumination

[Meg]

I think I don't really understand that OP. I understand it, whether Shardbearer thinks that spheres are used for Soulcasting. Don't you, Shardbearer? Do you worry about the needed quantity of gems for having enough to Soulcast and have spheres? 

 

That the permanent hunting of chasmfiends endangers the ecology of Roshar is known.(1)

But, at least I think I remember, that it is mentioned in TWoK that the spheres are made of gems that got broken by Soulcasting (but I don't find the quote now, sorry). 

[Windrunner]

Here's some quotes to help the discussion a bit.

When she opened the money pouch, shards of ruby, emerald, diamond, and sapphire shone out on her face. She fished out three diamond chips, the smallest denomination. Emeralds were the most valuable, for they could be used by Soulcasters to create food.

 

I couldn't find anywhere it specifically said that the gems in spheres came from gems cracked in Soulcasting, but this could be something.

Jasnah idly popped the broken smokestone from her Soulcaster, then tucked it into a pocket.  It could be sold to a gemsmith, who could salvage pieces and create smaller gemstones.

[makromag]

Now that I think about it, spheres coming from cracked gems would make sense. In the chapter where they hunt the chasm-fiend, don't they take out a gemstone the size of a man's head? and while that was one of the extremely big ones, the others would still be somewhere around that size, and completely impractical for daily use as money. This is just an assumption, but I think the gemhearts of other greatshells might be just as big, and the speres are discribed as the size of a thumbnail with a splinter of gem inside.

[Binnut]

If the spheres are made of cracked gemstones, wouldn't emerald be the lowest in value because of that food is what you can soulcast with and therefore crack the most emeralds. The Emerald gems themselves would be valuable, but the spheres made from them would not because of quantity and the fact that they cannot be used with a soulcaster (my assumption). 

[Kurkistan]

Two thoughts that have occurred to me:

 

1) Spheres may be a somewhat semi-fiat currency, as opposed to deriving their value entirely from their composition. Yes, spheres with the most "valuable" gems in them are more valuable, much like dimes--with their dab of silver--are more valuable than nickels, but by and large their value is largely independent of their individual compositions, in any real sense.

 

2) Spheres can still be used for soulcasting, leading to a real equivalent value (though I still think their value is largely determined by custom more than anything else). This one is highly likley, given that the entire point of gemhearts is that they are large, hard-to-break gemstones. They wouldn't do us much good if they had to be cut down to soulcaster-sized bites before use, now would they? This suggests that gemstones don't have to be "equipped" to fabrial soulcasters in order to be used.

 

I would suggest, then, that an emerald broam might not have the juice to feed an army, but it can probably do for a smaller number of people for a few weeks or months before giving out. The smallest denominations probably shatter within the sphere to such an extent that they are powder, and thus functionally worthless for soulcasting.

 

As an aside, a rather interesting thought has occurred to me: How big, exactly, are the gems that are normally equipped to soulcasters? Shallan says Jasnah's are "enormous, some of the largest that Shallan had ever seen, worth many spheres each" (ch 5), but, in terms of gemstones, might "enormous" be about the size of a thumbnail? In that case, wouldn't it be convenient if all the currency was exactly the same size and that size happened to be the appropriate size to slot into a soulcaster? 

Edited May 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardbearer]

Please don't feel cross with me, but where did you get that information? I've never understood it that way. 

I was alluding to the quote posted by Windrunner above. Emerald spheres are worth more because emeralds can make food, which implies that the spheres themselves are used in soulcasting. I never even considered Kurkistan's suggestion of a fiat currency, but that is a possibility.

And why would I be cross with you? Isn't the whole purpose of this forum so that we can debate such nuances and form theories?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

If they weren't in some way fiat, you wouldn't have nice constant ratios between denominations.

That said, the gems in the spheres probably vary in size over time, depending on availability.

[Satsuoni]

Well, Spheres can be used for soulcasting, as long as they are close enough to surgebinder - that is what Shallan used to soulcast that goblet, a garnet broam. It was also later used by Jasnah to Soulcast Shallan's blood into blood. So a single broam is pretty effective. The thing is, the larger the object soulcast, and the smaller the gem, the more probability that the gem would shatter. (Also, probably, more stormlight is needed). The large gems, like Gemheart, can be used almost indefinitely for pretty wide range of Soulcasting, so they probably would not be split until they shatter naturally, and the splinters would be pretty large as well.

So that is probably the reason (plus fiat, whatever that is ). More of the larger and sphere-sized gems are tied up in soulcasting, less are used for active currency, and so they are more valuable. Or something.

[Kurkistan]

So that is probably the reason (plus fiat, whatever that is ). More of the larger and sphere-sized gems are tied up in soulcasting, less are used for active currency, and so they are more valuable. Or something.

 

Oh yeah! How does it feel, champion of Auotpwail, to be baffled by mere economic terminology?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Economics never made any sense to me... It is, after all, based on human delusions Only a few days ago we had a discussion with Nepene where he tried to explain to me how government bonds manage to pay me back interest from my own taxes... I am still not sure

EDIT: I don't particularly feel bad about it, though Like many other human-related sciences, I just accept that it is not for me.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Shardbearer]

Well, Spheres can be used for soulcasting, as long as they are close enough to surgebinder - that is what Shallan used to soulcast that goblet, a garnet broam. It was also later used by Jasnah to Soulcast Shallan's blood into blood. So a single broam is pretty effective. The thing is, the larger the object soulcast, and the smaller the gem, the more probability that the gem would shatter. (Also, probably, more stormlight is needed). The large gems, like Gemheart, can be used almost indefinitely for pretty wide range of Soulcasting, so they probably would not be split until they shatter naturally, and the splinters would be pretty large as well.

So that is probably the reason (plus fiat, whatever that is ). More of the larger and sphere-sized gems are tied up in soulcasting, less are used for active currency, and so they are more valuable. Or something.

Yes, but this is for people with the soulcasting surge. My impression was that the fabrials need gems attached to the setting for them to work. Of course, soulcasting fabrials are not generally used around laymen unless they have a high rank (I think), so my impression could definitely be wrong.

[Kurkistan]

I had considered that too, shardbearer (hence my suggestion on the exact size of spheres), but the fact that gemhearts are useful before they're broken suggests otherwise.

[Windrunner]

I think we just know too little about spheres at the moment. There's also apparently some way to transfer the Stormlight out of the spheres and into a set of Plate, like Dalinar did after the Battle of the Tower.

[blackmagic3]

I am not sure but doesn't shard plate have slots for gems to power them.

But going on a tangent my theory is that shard plate conducts stormlight creating a stormlight potential between the gems and the shard plate. Every time the plate is hit it expends some of the potential.

[Windrunner]

A slot for gems, but not spheres. It implies that they can move the Stormlight from gem to gem.

[DocHoliday]

Dalinar implies at some point that ShardPlate can be repaired with Stormlight/Gems but that it was expensive and the gems usually shatter. I note the term shatter, not break. I would also like to point out Shardbearer, that Jasnah does not use a fabriel but still Soulcasts. Her settings are merely convenient holders; and we should conclude that being attached is not a requisite, but maybe so for normal

fabriels. I.e. pain fabriels etc.

[Shardlet]

Some clarifications are in order.  First, a sphere is a piece of gemstone mounted/encapsulated in some kind of clear glassy stuff.  The value of each sphere is determined by the type of gem (emerald, diamond, etc.) and the size of the gem (chip, mark, broam).  The relative value ofeach gem is likely derived fom the commonality of the gem as well as it's other uses as well as perhaps the state of the gem after it is used for those other uses.  For example, if a soulcasting typically results in a broken gem and the resulting pieces are generally to small to make gems for other purposes or even as currency then the value of that gem would be somewhat higher.  This is simply an expansion of supply and demand and opportunity cost.

 

As Doc pointed out, Jasnah and Shallan soucasting is different from typical soulcasting.  This is definitely evident in the fact that Shallan's fathers steward used to be able to soulcast with the fabrial and then was no longer able to do so.  In that case the fabrial made the difference.  I expect that the same is the case with the soulcasters held by the Ardentia.  So, Shallan and Jasnah can soulcast from spheres because their soulcasting is powered from an internal ability as well as drawing on stormlight.  I suspect the same general limitations apply, such as if you soulcast something big the gem which supplied the stormlight breaks.  It also appears that, even for Jasnah, different types of gems have different soulcasting affinities (i.e., emerald for food, smokestone for ash).  A soulcaster (fabrial), in contrast, is powered by gems fitted into the slots as well as something else to power the ability (likely a trapped spren similar to other fabrials). 

 

A gemheart is a fig fat uncut gemstone.  Since we know that cut stones hold stormlight better than uncut stones and gemstones are fitted into slots on soulcasters and shardplate, we can safely assume that the gemhearts are cut to size (also affecting the economics via opportunity cost (i.e., should it be cut into soulcaster size stones, fabrial sized stones, shardplate sized stones, etc.).  I doubt they strap softball sized uncut gemhearts to their wrists in order to soulcast with them.

 

Dalinar indicates that emeralds are particularly valuable because they can be used to soulcast food.  While there clearly is a vast population of people at the shattered plains, there is also a large population remaining in Alethkar.  So even if all the food consumed at the shattered plains is soulcast (which I don't think it is), there is still a large population that subsists on farmed food. 

 

Long story short, we quite simply don't have enough info to provide any substantial economic picture of the economics of gemstones.

[Kurkistan]

A gemheart is a fig fat uncut gemstone.  Since we know that cut stones hold stormlight better than uncut stones and gemstones are fitted into slots on soulcasters and shardplate, we can safely assume that the gemhearts are cut to size (also affecting the economics via opportunity cost (i.e., should it be cut into soulcaster size stones, fabrial sized stones, shardplate sized stones, etc.).  I doubt they strap softball sized uncut gemhearts to their wrists in order to soulcast with them.

 

No, we really can't assume this. It's clear that they use big gemstones as big gemstones. Sure they cut them to be faceted and whatnot, but they don't "cut them down to size" so very drastically as to fit into soulcasters. Therefore even fSoulcasters can draw upon the stormlight of "unequipped" gemstones.

 

WoK Ch 15

Each highprince wanted those gemhearts. Paying and feeding thousands of troops was not cheap, but a single gemheart could cover a highprince’s expenses for months. Beyond that, the larger a gemstone was when used by a Soulcaster, the less likely it was to shatter. Enormous gemheart stones offered near-limitless potential. And so, the highprinces raced. The first one to a chrysalis got to fight the Parshendi for the gemheart.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet]

I bow to your superior quotiness.  Though, this quote is ambiguous as to whether the stone is "equipped" into the soulcaster.  It could be faceted in such a way as to allow for attachment.  It is also possible that the soulcasters have the capability of being modified to equip enormous gemstones, an adapter of sorts.  Though, it doesn't seem as if they can make soulcasters either easily or at all, so I doubt they'd be inclined to tamper wih existing functional ones much.

[DocHoliday]

We technically don't even know that it has to be equipped for regular soul casters. We s assume so, because from Shallons POVs fabriels apparently have settings for popping gems in And out. HOWEVER this could just be a convenience issue. 

 

I wonder, Szeth and Kaladin don't have to necessarily be making physical contact to use Stormlight, perhaps it's a just a matter of proximity.

 

also cutting gems down to size i.e. just cutting facets, will also produce Chip sized currency.

 

Tangent thought why do the Parshendi beard gems (have Stormlight? Are they weathering the storms in the open?

[Kurkistan]

I would assume they leave their beard-gems out in the storm just like the Alethi leave out spheres. Though Parshedi apparently do stay out in storms to change their forms.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Rutsahl]

I'm on my second read through the book, at chapter 7 right now and I'm trying to figure out how exactly Shallan's father made money by soulcasting marble quarries.

 

I figured the amount of spheres it would cost to actually soulcast the marble quarries would equal out with any profit actually made from mining the marble. If not, then why aren't all needs for marble met by soulcasters. Why even search for natural made quarries at all? She says something in chapter 7 about the forbidden nature of what her father was doing so I'm pretty sure what he was doing was illegal, but just the simple fact that it's possible makes me wonder why doesn't Alethi kingdom just soulcast their own marble all the time?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Rutsahl