Long Game 12: Shadows of Elantris

[Elithanathile he/him]

I want to join! Fair warning, this is my first time doing one of these, so I'm may be a liability to whichever team I'm on.

 

I am Lareshe, a Beggar that, until recently, lived in one of the other destroyed cities surrounding elantris. I survived by betraying my neighbor, and stealing whatever food I could get from travelers. I recently moved to Kae in hopes of finding a (slightly) more honest way of life. (I still have nightmares about a traveler that I killed once.) I am naturally suspicious of everyone, and am not above betraying people I know. I am skilled at sneaking around and pickpocketing, but have no learning whatsoever, being born in an abondoned city. I see an education as unnecessary, and shun reading or writing.

 

Does this qualify? (Also, any tips for playing would be highly appreciated.)

[little wilson she/her]

I want to join! 

 

Sign ups for this particular game are actually closed since the game just started last night. Sorry! However, we should be having signups for another game--a Quick Fix--here in a week or two, so if you keep checking back, you'll be able to sign up for that if you'd like. You can also sign up as pinch hitter for this game, which means that if someone goes inactive, you might be called in to replace that person. Then you'd be able to play (but it would be using the established character with their alignment and role). If you'd like to do that, just PM Herowannabe or Tulir and they'll get you on that list.

 

And since apparently we forgot to lock this thread, I shall do that now.

[Bort he/him]

Borter Clams ignored the snobs around him. All of them were twisting their faces at the fishy smell that lingered about him, but that wasn't his fault. His father was a fisherman, hence the name 'Clams', and so had he been until he left his home to seek his fortune in the capital. He had washed, but it took a while to get the stench of his former profession out of his skin.

 

He watched, stunned, by the sudden death of the Patriarch. Cultists? Here in Kae? Unbelieveable. He looked around at the other guests and saw shocked confusion on their faces too. Perhaps he should see what he could do to help. New to the city, gaining a bit of gratitude couldn't hurt.

[Herowannabe he/him]

So, I assume the Dula/s has/have made their couples?

Yes. Thats' why signups ended a day before the game began, so that I could notify the Dula and give him/her time to choose the lovers. The lovers were notified at the same time they received their role PMs.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I think we can't just let the Debtor die because we are unwilling to vote. It's very unlikely that a Cultist was assigned to be a Debtor right off the bat, since first day lynches have become more and more rare, we'd get a free kill right off the bat. That said, I don't know who to vote for. Let's get Meta in here.

[phattemer]

Why Meta? I appreciate you not being afraid to be the first one to vote, which immediately makes you a target, but killing a random experienced player doesn't really seem like a good idea. But then again, I don't want to lynch a new player either. I have no idea what I'm doing, do I.

[Kasimir he/him]

I miss Ren :/
 
Ok. I know I said 'can u not' but I think this has to be done. I apologise especially to Hreo who has to see this all over again.
 
I think we have to distinguish between three things:
1. Lynch discussion [i.e. the discussion that goes on as we decide who is suspicious and who should be lynched, etc.]
2. Lynch kill [i.e. the actual information gleaned from someone being killed off and Hreo telling us about their role.]
3. Lynch discussion with the explicit intention to kill.
 
Let me explain why these are separate things. Let's say we kill Wyrm (sorry King, I just had to pick someone no one would be twitchy about in this game.) We find out he's a Jindo Warrior (lolnope). That's all the information we get from the lynch kill. (2.) Now, we may get more information from the lynch discussion: e.g. who was pushing hard for Wyrm's death? Who defended Wyrm? Who abstained? Who is advocating what? Notice that this information may not even be related to Wyrm or about Wyrm. So, the information obtained from a lynch discussion (1.) is separate from the information obtained from 2. but it may complement it. It is also clearly more expansive, and in a sense, less definite.
 
Well, what about 3.? I separate this because we can simply sit here right now and agree we will kill no one today and then discuss. Or we can sit here and discuss with the intention to discover a candidate who will be lynched. I think it is important to note I say, 'with the intention'. Why? Because our discussion can be oriented around/guided by an intention that ultimately gets overruled. There is nothing that stops us from deciding at the end of Day 1 that we don't really want to lynch anyone today after all.
 
But.
 
A. If we start out saying that we shan't lynch anyone today, the lynch discussion becomes toothless because the stakes are virtually nothing. No one has any reason to comply or to participate in the discussion. 
B. Beginning with a commitment to lynching does not mean this commitment is not or should not be defeasible.
C. This is an LG. I, at least, tend to be less uptight about lynching off the bat during an LG. If it were a QF, I would not at all stress the defeasibility of an intention to lynch and would rather we lynch right away.
D. ...Mislynches happen. I don't mean to be gung-ho about lynching. My point is that if they haven't stopped us in most previous games, I find it somewhat difficult to see why they should stop us now. [unless, of course, the suggestion is we wait a day or two and then lynch. But once again, I am a supporter of 3. I think this is a decision that must emerge from discussion rather than both pre-empting and precluding it.]
 

And now, for something completely different:

Has anyone noticed exactly how many possibilities for vote shenanigans there are here? And of a different sort than we're used to, too.

I'm going to wait to place my actual vote, but in the meanwhile, I'd like to poke Wilson. Let's hope my head doesn't get bitten off.

Edit: Y u no colour?!

Edited May 23, 2015 by Kasimir

[phattemer]

Well that makes sense. So, does anyone have a target for discussion about killing them?

[Kasimir he/him]

This is just a quick post to note something:
 
While we are looking for Cultists, let's not lose sight of the other threat. This time, the Gyorn (and Odiv, once that fellow shows up) wins by converting everyone. Killing people off helps their objectives, sure, but unlike other conversion killers, they don't actually need to protect their converts, except for the Odiv.
 
The point I want to get to is that the conversions are a ticking time clock. For that reason, if it's not against the rules, I would like the request that whoever gets converted by the Gyorn post the names or at least the numbers of surviving converts during each Turn (particularly during the Day Turn.) It's important for us to know how many living converts there are: you guys are a clock ticking down to however many Turns it takes for the Gyorn to win. It's not a big deal yet, but I worry that if we ignore them for too long, it'll get harder to stop the Gyorn and his Robin. (See: decreasing number of players, increasing/increasing rate of conversions.) This is exactly how much time we have to find and root out the Cultists.

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Kasimir, I'm not actually that sure how worried we have to be about the gyon and odiv - If the Gyorn creates an early odiv we have a relatively small list of individuals who are suspect, and if he delays then the time pressure is minimal - and discovering the gyorn becomes increasingly easier the more individuals he converts - it shouldnt be difficult to work out who he is towards the end of the game

[little wilson she/her]

I'm typically of the idea that it's the lynch discussion that is more important than the lynch itself, and if there's a very useful discussion that doesn't necessarily hinge around the death of one particular individual, it's not necessary to kill anyone. That's not often the case though. Normally the discussion (if there is discussion) is only fruitful is someone dies. That said, most useful lynch discussions don't happen on the first day. They happen when there's a little more information to be had, which, at the earliest, is Day 2 (unless the game starts on a Night, and even that's a little iffy). 

 

Still, I don't think trying to keep a debtor from dying is really something we can control, so there's not much point in discussing it. There are far too many vote manipulation roles out there, and with their powers being what they are, even if we have a 3-4 vote buffer, that could easily be swayed to someone else entirely or end up as a tie and a random debtor dies.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be torn up if a random debtor was lynched at the beginning. I'd much prefer that happen than a Jindo Warrior or Shu-Korath Priest.

 

Well, I guess I agree with winter in that we do kinda need to lynch someone. I think there are multiple priests/warriors, so we can't go terribly wrong. Does anyone else think that one of the current Elantrians is probably a cultist? They could not be, but it seems to make sense to me.

 

When you say "multiple priests/warriors," I get the feeling you mean more than two each. I highly doubt there's more than one Priest, though I suppose with this number of players, there could be two. I also rather doubt that there's more than two warriors. Normally, I'd say there would be 3 or more Warriors for a group this large; however, the Priest and the Warrior are the only guaranteed good roles in this game, and safe roles are notoriously problematic. I highly doubt there would be more than 3 or 4 in this game, and even that seems a little high. Regardless, this kind of complacent attitude in reference to our guaranteed good roles concerns me.

 

An Elantrian could be a cultist. Or there might not be a Cultist among them yet. I think it would make less sense for the Cultists to start out with an Elantrian that it would for them to start with a Debtor (since I can kind of see why a Debtor would make sense for the Cultists to start out with). Personally, I think targeting an Elantrian at this point would be unwise, despite there being only three of them, since I really doubt that there's a Cultist there. Furthermore, I think it would benefit the Cultists to try to target the Elantrians if they don't have one of their group in that number. Get the Citizens focused on a group that'll take 3 cycles to wipe out (since we'd be targeting the starting number)? While the Cultists can slide by and just kill at their leisure for the first 3 cycles? That's not a bad idea.

 

I think we can't just let the Debtor die because we are unwilling to vote. It's very unlikely that a Cultist was assigned to be a Debtor right off the bat, since first day lynches have become more and more rare, we'd get a free kill right off the bat. 

 

As I said just above, I think it's likely that there actually is a debtor among the Cultists. Probably only one, but there's still one. Why? Well, because one, with the vote manipulation roles, it's unlikely that there will be a tie even if it looks like there will be a tie. And two, because that's any easy way to try to kill off one of the dukes/duchesses. And three, they no doubt have two, possibly three vote manipulation roles, so it will be easy for them to steer things away from a tie and protect their debtor without showing their faces.

 

And now, for my vote. It will go on Sienene for now.

 

EDIT: And I just realized my first and third reasons for the debtor among the Cultist is the same. That's what I get for not proofreading. Ah, well. The point stands.

[Kasimir he/him]

I have two responses to you, Orlok. First, you're misreading my argument. My argument is that we need to remain aware of how many existing cultists there are. I am arguing that we should not neglect the Gyorn and the Odiv because that can come back to haunt us when it is too late, particularly since we have to juggle threats. You seem to be tilting at windmills since you are targeting an argument about the Gyorn and the Odiv being a major threat. That argument does not exist; if it does, then someone else other than myself is making it. Second, you're neglecting several very important factors:

Kills keep going on. Not only does the Gyorn convert, but kills--both from Team Evil and from mislynches*--thin the population of people still living. At the same time, with a maximum of ten Elantrians, that's voting power lost to us here and now. Don't plan for the best scenario. Plan for the scenario with greatest attrition.

*accelerants for the Gyorn. So does an Odiv who can speed up the rate of conversion.]

Let's use a simple example.

Let the total existing population of players be x. Because we want to be conservative in our assumptions and assuming there are minimal Elantrians is a larger assumption, assume the maximum number of Elantrians instead. So, there are 10 Elantrians. Total pool of players = x-10. [Abstracting away, at this point in time, from the exact rates at which the number of Elantrians will grow. If we have some way of knowing that, then we can begin to do the calculus.]

Now, recall that the Gyorn is immune to the Shaod. Most conservative assumption means no Odiv.

This gives us a population of x-11-y (where y is the number of existing converts.)

There are two pressures on (x-11-y). The first pressure comes from cultist kills removing people from the existing population at a rate of 1. The second pressure comes from the lynch. The third comes from the conversion. At it's very worst, the population is being reduced by 3 every cycle. That's a substantial number when you consider we're beginning with a pool of 30 players, as that leaves 19 left in play. This does not factor in Debtor deaths, hostage deaths, or any other nasty surprises associated with Elantris. That makes it five cycles to crunch time.

Sure, it's all numbers and speculation. But in a game, if you play to win, you make the most conservative assumptions in order not to get nasty surprises. And my point has always been that to avert a nasty surprise later, we ought to pay attention to the convert numbers.

And as a final rejoinder: we want to know if a Gyorn is playing proactively. Frankly, right now, if I were the Gyorn, I'd be half-inclined to let the Village and Cultists fight it out and only start converting later on in the game. Knowing the Gyorn's strategy is helpful to us. Once again, it is 'information'.

 

Edit: Thank you, Wilson.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Kasimir

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Kasimir, my point above was not that your idea was wrong - it does indeed make sense, more an observation that I think the cultists are a far more pressing threat.

Also, as the number of converts increases, so too does the likelihood that the cultists target converts - so although you are right that we need to be wary of the Gyorn, and it would indeed make sense to know who is a convert each cycle, it is not our most pressing concern - and further to that point is there not a risk that if we focus too heavily on the Gyorn and Odiv we reduce the discussion regarding Cultists, allowing them to potentially hide in the discussion.

Either way, I'm not sure what part of my response warranted a vote - would you care to explain?

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Been gone all day, but...

 

I second Kasmir's vote on Orlok. Orlok's reaction to Kasimir's comments about the Derethi faction reminds me of what he did to me at the end of MR6: Making a half-hearted attempt to discuss by quickly refuting a position. The post that he responded to wasn't even very provocative, it was mostly just a call for more info. Now, maybe that sort of refutation is just his playstyle (in which case it's kind of rude of me to be so dismissive of it,) but the nature of it seems typical to me of someone who's more interested in their doc than the thread discussion.

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Ok, I'm actually very surprised to the reaction to my post - essentially I was saying that by focussing too much on the Gyorn and Odiv we risk letting the cultists hide - and as I said above I don't disagree with Kasimir's suggestion about keeping track of numbers of converts..

My actions in MR6 were poor play, and only feasible given the overwhelming advantage we as eliminator a possessed - if I were an eliminator I would be foolhardy to repeat it - paticularly drawing attention to myself this early in the game.

If I am going to get lynched, which is possible, and I'm going I be away for the next 16 hours, so won't know until later, I would like to suggest that the hoed use morse code to communicate - very few symbols requires and incredible versatility of communication.

Mckeedee's vote on me, whose name I shall edit to red once I'm off my mobile, has a ring of an attempt to start a bandwagon - on grounding I maintain is flawed.

Edit: colour

Edited May 24, 2015 by OrlokTsubodai

[phattemer]

Wilson, I did indeed mean two(even so that's like a 10-15% chance), and I will have to explain later for many reasons, first of which is that I don't know if you're a citizen. My post was really just a stream of consciousness on how I was thinking about the game. I did that on purpose because I didn't want to just give conclusions without showing that I had considered both sides.

 

Orlok, Mckee seems more like a Debtor to me.

Edited May 24, 2015 by phattemer

[Araris Valerian he/him]

@Orlok This is an American forum, so we don't spell color with a "u." Hopefully that helps.

I'm not really sure what to make out of Kasimir's reaction to Orlok. It does seem a bit blown out of proportion, but then again we don't have too much to go off of here. One thing that we (and the cultists) should consider is that killing non-converts is more harmful to everyone than killing converts. This probably means that

1) Most converts probably won't want to reveal their identity and

2) Villager converts that have power over a kill like the pirate should target those amongst themselves when deciding between two equally likely targets.

I guess that I have decided that I agree with Orlok's vote on Mckeedee. I think Kasimir was justified in voting for Orlok, since they were having a discussion about the importance of the different game mechanics. I think discussion about game mechanics usually makes up the meat of the earlier discussions in Long Games. The first two spiked in the last game were caught partly because of the sleeping mechanic. But I feel like Kasimir was looking more for a response than for other people to jump on his vote.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Araris Valerian

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

Well that was terrifying. I do hope that I don't receive the same treatment. I wouldn't want to ruin this suit (gives overly dramatic bow and flourish) (everyone is impressed)

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Thanks Araris! Diagnosed it correctly - I hadn't even considered that a possibility.

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Mckeedee's vote on me, whose name I shall edit to red once I'm off my mobile, has a ring of an attempt to start a bandwagon - on grounding I maintain is flawed.

 

I sort of was. Your posts here honestly do seem to mirror your actions at the end MR6 to me. Could it be that I have residual feelings of mistrust about you from that recent game? Probably. I saw what I saw, though, and in this case I'd be willing to put a lynch onto you, since it seems it would have a higher probability of hitting a Spy than anyone else. I doubt everyone agrees with me, but that's my little contribution to the discussion

 

Orlok, Mckee seems more like a Debtor to me.

 

My credo in SE is just to help my team as much as possible. I don't really care about dying (unless I die lamely after accidentally getting a lynch off on a villager.) If I were a village debtor in this game, and I'm not saying I am, I wouldn't bother trying to lynch people just to save my own hide, so let that assure you that my intentions are pure (or evil, I guess, but just not some sort of wishy-washy middle ground, since that's what you're implying.)

Edited May 24, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Orlok Tsubodai]

In case I am being misinterpreted, my position, as I hope I made clear above, is that whilst I agree with Kasimir's suggestion we keep track of converts, we do not overly focus on them, lest we let the cultists hide in discussions which won't threaten them.

You deciding me guilty based on last game is somewhat interesting - last game I was clearly acting to defend an individual, in a manner that in retrospect made my role incredibly obvious. Above, I merely engaged in discussion, from a viewpoint that differed to kasimir.

It seems very unhealthy for discussion if we decide that anyone who disagrees with a viewpoint previously stated is a cultist - which could potentially stymie discussion rather than encourage it.

[Claincy he/him]

I don't have much time, but here's my couple of cents:

 

As far as I remember I've always been in favour of lynching/discussions from the word go (excepting the first game) and my opinion on that is unlikely to change. Basically for the same reasons that Kasimir outlined.

 

That out of the way, a couple of things that have been brought up are debtor/s and Elantrians and whether there would be an eliminator among them. I haven't been part of a game with Hero or Tulir GMing before which makes it harder to guess how random or deliberate they would be with role assignments, still.

 

Elantrians: It's possible that there is an Elantrian cultist, but I don't think we should prioritise attacking the Elantrians to find out:

-At least until (and if) Elantris is destroyed an Elantrian cultist is a bit less dangerous than a normal one in my estimation as they can only kill other Elantrians

-I also think that Elantris being restored is likely, on balance, to be better for us than for the cultists as there will very likely be significantly more citizens than cultists in Elantris, meaning that we get more players with whatever abilities Elantrians get. *shrug* I think generally the higher the number of powered villagers the better chance we have.

 

Debtors: I really don't know if there is a cultist debtor or not. Assuming that there are multiple debtors out there it is entirely possible but I don't know how many there are, or if they were allocated entirely randomly or not.

-If we assume entirely randomly then the odds of a cultist debtor being killed if we don't do anything are 1/6-1/5 depending on the number of cultists. (I'd guess 5 cultists given the presence of the Gyorn but I could easily be wrong). Basically the odds don't seem better than if we pick someone to lynch ourselves.

-If Wilson is right and the Cultists have a number of vote manipulation roles then if we leave the vote near a tie then a citizen will die, regardless of whether they have a debtor or not and we won't gain any particularly useful information from the death.

 

For now I would like to know what Gerald Hobbes thinks.

[Haelbarde he/him]

...if it's not against the rules, I would like the request that whoever gets converted by the Gyorn post the names or at least the numbers of surviving converts during each Turn (particularly during the Day Turn.) ...

Bah, Kasimir - you beat me to it again :/  Stupid time zones. 

 

The other thing it gives us is a list of people who are not the Gyorn.

[Metacognition he/him]

MenE tried to stay out of the way of all the guards running back and forth, trying to secure the exits and get statements from everyone. He continued to scrub along the walls, constantly whispering, "Merciful Domi" again and again, as if it was a mantra or chant. 

 

While his body was occupied, his mind was racing. He kept filtering through everything he'd heard and everything he'd read about the Jeskeri Mysteries (one nice side effect of being an unnoticed cleaner was access to the royal library and all of its books). The first thing he noted was the brand that was left on the Patriarch's chest; it was a Jesker symbol for "Infidel," but it had an accent to it that, if his memory served him (and it had so far), also symbolized the idea of War or Mission. 

 

To MenE, this meant that this was not an isolated attempt. There would likely be more murders and more blood before this was over; especially with the killers now trapped. He recalled a saying he had heard from a sailor down by the docks, "A shark in the nets always fights harder." Well, while the guards meant well and they were just trying to capture the people responsible, they had also put the killer within a net and everyone here was trapped in the net with them. 

 

If only he could tell them what they were doing, but before he could open his mouth, his ears picked up on the sounds of conversation in the room and his mind went off racing after it; making connections and pulling up other facts. 

 

Kaian seemed to be dominating the discussion, trying to find anyone and everyone who had a "difficulty" with the Shu-Korath faith. MenE found himself agreeing with him. While it was obviously the Jeskeri cultists that had committed the murder, the Shu-Dereth were an equally big threat and, as shown in the histories, the Gyorn and his Odiv would capitalize on this atrocity if left unchecked. He even agreed with Kaian's call to make converts name themselves, so that the progress of the Gyorn could be tracked and kept in check. 

 

"I-" he started to say, so that he could lend his voice to Kaian's, when again, another tangent drew his attention. 

 

Many people started speaking up with concern about their chances of survival; specifically that the royalty, like the Dukes and Princes and such would be able to buy their way out of getting killed in this wild manhunt. It was a valid concern. With so many people influencing the voting process, it would be all too easy for someone to change the votes in their favor. 

 

The answer to that was obvious though: the only people that would have cause to try to manipulate votes at the early stages of the game were likely those that wished to see a specific outcome; aka, the Jeskeri Cultists at this point. If someone else had decided to grease some palms, they were working against the greater good of the group, as the group needed a baseline of consensus to work from before they tried to use their influence to get someone they thought was a Cultist killed. Someone just wanting to use their power just for the sake of it was, essentially, hindering any progress that the Non-Cultist, Non-Gyorn people within the room had of making wise decisions. He had read something similar in a book about Art and War some time back. It had said something about only using your powers until they were needed, for strategic effect, or something along those lines. Doing otherwise would just cause chaos. 

 

As such, the most likely outcome, though there were plenty of ways to manipulate the voting process, was that only those that were Cultists (or Debtors that are also Dukes/Princes, but that's unlikely so early, IMO) would likely be using their status/role to influence things to early on. 

 

The one thing that this hectic group did have to worry about though, was people influencing those that stayed on the sidelines and never spoke up. Those people were susceptible to Princes and Princesses alike. By not speaking up for themselves, they were throwing themselves at the feet of their sovereign lords and ladies; similar to those that didn't decide to cast a ballot themselves. 

 

It was simple process of elimination in MenE's mind: Remove the opportunity for the Princes and Princesses to use their influence and it would eliminate the number of people who could still influence the vote. 

 

He was about to state as much when Duke Pifferdan broke his concentration with an outburst about how he wished to live and little else. He was then sent spiralling back down and around his own thoughts. 

 

The crowd was a blur of faces, none of them very friendly or evil within themselves. Any one of them could hide a Cultist behind it. The room seemed to spin around him as he tried to pick out details, only to be bombarded with other little snippets (like the fact that Duke Pifferdan's suit was wearing at the edges, which suggested that he had fallen on harder times than he let on) like trying to catch a specific raindrop in a downpour. One face did seem to stand out from the crowd though. Nathanael seemed to be standing along the edges of the crowd and was that the lingerings of a grin on his face? 

 

MenE continued his scrubbing. Every time he tried to speak up, something else would catch his eye. But, maybe, Domi willing, something within what he saw would help keep the "shark" at bay.

 

 

So basically every game I tend to start out with the lofty expectation that I will stay in character for the entire game and I'm going to continue to try to do so until I get too lazy to! As such, all my arguments are up there. 

 

The one thing I will put down here is that, if we can't decide on someone to go after this day due to information, I suggest that we go after a lurker. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Cultists are sitting back so far (it's what I would do) and just letting us kill ourselves. Plus, they're not helping us get a read on who is who. We shouldn't (and I won't) sit back and try to wait for specific roles to tell us what to do. The most important part of this game is, and always will be IMO, our ability to persuade and logically deduce when something doesn't add up. We can do that through the discussion alone. 

Also, as I said above, if everyone votes, we take away a lot of the Princes and Princesses power, so we need to encourage everyone to be involved! 

 

 

 

 

[Kasimir he/him]

Kasimir, my point above was not that your idea was wrong - it does indeed make sense, more an observation that I think the cultists are a far more pressing threat.

Also, as the number of converts increases, so too does the likelihood that the cultists target converts - so although you are right that we need to be wary of the Gyorn, and it would indeed make sense to know who is a convert each cycle, it is not our most pressing concern - and further to that point is there not a risk that if we focus too heavily on the Gyorn and Odiv we reduce the discussion regarding Cultists, allowing them to potentially hide in the discussion.

Either way, I'm not sure what part of my response warranted a vote - would you care to explain?

Very simply, it's a Day One vote. I'm partly basing it off gut, so I don't expect other players to join in as we know guts can be Darkfriends. But your strategy also reminds me of how I was playing a conversion killer in LG6. It was very helpful for me to carefully downplay the threat I posed to the Village and to constantly attempt to redirect the discussion to the Darkfriends [Eliminators], because everyone knows they're the biggest threat aren't they?

 

I don't deny that we cannot ignore the Cultists. But at no point was I making the argument we should ignore the Cultists. You make an assumption that discussing the Cultists and the Gyorn ends up being a zero-sum game. It is not. That assumption is flawed.

You're my biggest existing suspicion. Sure, it's a Day One suspicion and therefore flimsy, but it's the best I have and I see no reason yet to shift my vote. Orlok.

Edit: I will also note I'm suspicious of your trying to pass off some of Mek's worries (perhaps mine as well?) as deciding dissent indicates someone is a cultist. We have our reasons. We have given them. I did not play MR6 so I cannot judge Mek's reasons and I'm not looking for support on this vote. Your conflating genuine disagreement and attempts at somewhat reasoned suspicion (considering this is Day 1) with nothing more than petty retaliatory voting is one slip in reasoning. A second slip is suggesting that "stifles discussion". It's a great rhetorical tactic. But it also murkies the waters and makes it difficult for Villagers to claim they're voting for principled reasons separate from disagreement. You make a lot of argumentative slips and conflations that I find interesting for a Villager.

My second suspicion--although not a strong one--is on Phat. I'm not certain what to make of him, but I am always automatically suspicious of players who pretty much end up constantly agreeing with almost everything that shows up and playing the clueless angle.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Kasimir